Ben Shapiro and Michael Knowles Share First Impressions of Charlie Kirk and What His Death Means for America

[00:00] [Music]

[00:21] My two guests today really need no introduction. This week, I'm releasing three special episodes featuring guests

[00:27] who knew and loved Charlie in tribute to him. Today, it's the Daily Wires Ben Shapiro and Michael Nolles. As per

[00:33] usual, no matter who I'm interviewing, it is my style to ask the tough questions, sometimes uncomfy ones, based

[00:39] on what I think people would want to ask themselves if they were the ones hosting a podcast. Ben and Michael share their

[00:46] first impressions meeting Charlie, what his assassination means for our country going forward, how they're coping with

[00:52] the aftermath, and we always end, of course, with asking what their remedy is to heal us at culture. You can watch

[00:58] this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or Culture Apothecary on Spotify, which now features video. And

[01:03] right now, as we try to get back into the rhythm of releasing episodes after this tragedy, it would mean a lot for

[01:09] you to leave a five-star review on Spotify or Apple and just say why you love the show. Find the show on

[01:15] Instagram, Culture Apothecary, or find me at real Alex Clark. You can get show merch or Charlie Kirk Legacy merch to

[01:21] help support the organization. TPUSA merch.com. You'll get 10% off with code Alex Clark. Please welcome Ben Shapiro

[01:28] and Michael Nolles to Culture Apothecary.

[01:33] Tell us about the first time that you had even heard of Charlie Kirk or met him. Yeah, so the first time I met Charlie,

[01:39] I've told this story before, is he was 18, I was 28. Uh, and I was working at the David Horitz Freedom Center and we

[01:45] were doing some sort of Horwood Center freedom event, and I see this gangly 18-year-old kid with a very ill-fitting

[01:53] jacket kind of pop up, and he goes, "Mr. Shapiro, I'm starting this organization called Turning Point. We're looking for

[01:59] donors. I really want to talk to you about what it is that we're doing." And so we sit together and he tells me about all this extremely energetic, obviously

[02:06] very bright, really, really gritty. I mean, one of the things we say at Daily Wire in terms of our hiring is, "You can't teach grit." Like Charlie was just

[02:12] grit and energy all day long. And I had this conversation. My co-founder of the Daily Wire, Jeremy Boring, was there as

[02:17] well. And as Charlie walked away, I turned to Jeremy. I said, "That kid's going to be the head of the RNC." Like, you knew it the first time you met

[02:23] Charlie. And one of the things that I've said over and over about Charlie since this horrific act of evil is that

[02:30] Charlie is one of the rare people who got better at legitimately everything. So the the

[02:37] kind of take when you see somebody who's very good at things is that they must have had some insane level of talent. Like obviously Charlie was innately

[02:43] incredibly smart, very bright, and very fluid. But Charlie was not charismatic as a speaker. Charlie was not a great

[02:49] debater. And he was a great organizer from the very get-go. Terrific fundraiser. all the things that that made TPUSA sort of behind the scenes an

[02:56] unbelievably large and powerful organization. That stuff he was great at at the beginning. The charismatic Charlie Kirk that the world knows

[03:02] through billions of views. The one who was making great arguments on college campuses and and going at it at Oxford Union and and the Charlie Kirk who was

[03:08] giving speeches in front of thousands of people at at SAS or Amfest that Charlie Kirk, he willed himself to become

[03:15] incredibly good at those things, like the best on earth at many of those things. And that is amazing. It's also,

[03:21] you know, it contributes to the the horrifying tragedy of of what happened because, of course, if his trajectory was that, then where would he have been

[03:28] in in 10 years? I mean, that's that's the part that's astonishing. You know, when when I first heard that that

[03:34] Charlie had been shot, obviously, everybody went into a state of shock. Everybody. But the thing that

[03:40] that stunned me the most is when the headline started to come out and it would say Charlie Kirk, 31. It's like he

[03:47] was 31 years old. And of course I knew that because I'm 10 years older than he is. I'm 41. He's 30. But because Charlie

[03:52] had accomplished so unbelievably much by the time he was 31. It's insane to think that he was only 31 years old and he had

[03:59] done all of this. When a normal 31-year-old person dies,

[04:05] obviously it's a tragedy, but you don't see the outpouring of grief from literally tens of millions of people all over the globe, ranging from, you know,

[04:12] countries like the United States where you have tens of millions of people to Argentina to London to Italy to Israel

[04:18] to Canada to to South Korea to New Zealand. I mean, like that's that's an amazing testament to who Charlie was. It

[04:24] was a privilege to watch him go from a an 18-year-old go-getter young man to a

[04:31] true man in every sense of the word, a husband, a father, and an iconic figure. When I first was hired from Turning

[04:37] Point, so I've been here for 6 years. It was July of 2019, I believe. You spoke

[04:43] at SAS or one of our gala dinners, right when I very first got hired. And then there was a little bit of a gap. There's

[04:48] a little bit of a gap between Turning Point, Ben Shapiro, maybe some rumors of like just a little bit of competition

[04:54] between you and Charlie, a little competitive nature or tension. Can you talk candidly about that gap? Yeah, I mean I I I never felt that in

[05:01] terms of my personal relationship with Charlie. I mean certainly I I it's not like we ran a campus organization. I mean we we run a media outlet and so the

[05:08] the idea that there was some sort of competition for for whom uh would have been weird. I mean the reason there was a gap is because there was co I mean

[05:15] that was 2019 and then there was a gap in 2020 and 2021 and then last year I spoke at at Amfest in in December.

[05:23] So no beef. No, I mean what what what would the beef have been? I mean that's the thing I

[05:30] keep asking people. So what what is the supposed beef that I had with Charlie between say 2019 and 2023? What what

[05:37] exactly would that have been? I'm unaware of it. I mean, we're in the game

[05:42] of politics. That means that we have discussions all the time behind the scenes about how to pragmatically handle all the things that are happening behind

[05:48] the scenes. Are those conversations that that Charlie and I had? Of course. Are those conversations that that ever got

[05:53] fraught and angry? No. Not Not one bit. You may be one of, if not the only

[05:59] other, I mean, most threatened conservative commentator ever. Have you

[06:05] had to have these preparation type conversations with your own wife a thousand times? Um, yes. My my my wife

[06:12] unfortunately is quite used to this and so are my kids. I I have four kids. They 11, 9, five, and two and they do not

[06:19] know what it's like to live without 24/7 security. They've been living with it their entire life essentially. And so, you know, honestly, like for for them

[06:25] it's kind of normal and they play lightsabers with the security guards and everything. Uh but obviously in the

[06:30] aftermath of of what happened, security went into even higher gear and you know,

[06:36] don't go out to dinner, don't go into public spaces, all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure I'm not the only person

[06:41] who's felt that, but I knew that that Charlie was taking risk, you know, by

[06:48] doing the right thing. And that's the nature of the that's the nature of what Charlie wanted to do. He knew he couldn't do what he needed to do unless

[06:54] he put himself at a certain amount of physical risk. and he was incredibly brave for for

[07:01] doing all of that. One of the first things I said, I mean, I'm just like angry and sobbing and in

[07:06] tears. And I said to um Kvette, I said,

[07:11] "Why was he allowed to be outside after

[07:17] Trump's assassination attempt? Why wasn't he wearing a bulletproof vest?" And he said, "We tried. He didn't want

[07:24] to do it." like there were talks of hey when we do these campus tours we probably need to be indoors all that and

[07:30] he said no I mean that that's a decision that that he wanted to make because he felt like he wanted to be with the crowd right he wanted to do that and that's that is a

[07:36] decision I mean obviously I used to do a lot of campus events uh the the campus

[07:42] events that that I traditionally do are indoors and they do require more security and there have been situations like back in 2017 I believe when I spoke

[07:48] at Berkeley that they had to have something 500 police officers and I was wearing a bulletproof vest at the behest of my security and I remember saying my

[07:55] security. Do I need a bulletproof vest? Like why? Why? I remember actively saying my security. This is ridiculous. Nobody's going to shoot me for saying

[08:01] political things. And I think that, you know, to be in this business and to do what Charlie did. I think there's a

[08:06] baseline assumption. I think this is what got shattered for for the country. There was a baseline assumption in this

[08:12] country, you do not get shot to death for having political debate with the

[08:17] people you disagree with. You don't do that. And I know I operated along those lines. I know Charlie operated along

[08:22] those lines because he was in the same business. And that's what I think is so shocking and horrifying about this. Not just obviously most of all, most of all

[08:29] for his family, but but for the entire country is that we live in a new world where yes, you very well could be shot

[08:35] and murdered for your political beliefs and for debating those in an open space. You recently said that you're going to

[08:41] get back out there. You're going to go on some college tours. Are you scared? No. Uh I mean again I I've always

[08:48] operated under the assumption that everything is going to be fine because it would be hard to operate in the world without that. You couldn't you couldn't exit. Well the reason that I said that

[08:54] is because there had been a rumor that was promulgated immediately after Charlie's shooting that I had canceled a

[08:59] college tour which is not true. There was no college tour actually planned. And so I said like that's ridiculous.

[09:05] Everybody everybody needs to go out and pick up Charlie's bloodstained microphone. You know, the the internet

[09:11] of course immediately decided that's not what I had said, but if you actually go and watch it, I say we. I use the plural pronoun we because

[09:18] we all have to do that. No one is capable of filling Charlie's shoes. No one. I'm not capable of it. No one's

[09:26] capable of it. It's silly to even argue about it. Everybody needs to do their bit. Charlie was a giant. He was iconic

[09:32] in the movement. It's funny for me to say this about someone 10 years younger than I, but Charlie was he was an icon of the movement. And it's not possible

[09:38] and no one should even try to replace Charlie Kirk or do what Charlie was doing. It's not it's not possible. We

[09:45] all have to go out and and do those things. Are you taking over Turning Point USA? That is the biggest load of

[09:50] I've ever heard in my entire life. Truly. As soon as Charlie was shot, we reached out to Andrew and to the rest of

[09:58] the team here and we said, "What do you need? Let us put everything at your disposal." Literally everything. Like we we put our

[10:03] talent at at the disposal of TPUSA. We put our support staff at the at the disposal of TPUSA who monetary resources

[10:10] behind TPUSA because we believe in what Charlie believed in and we believe in what TPUSA does and is going to continue

[10:16] to do on into the future. X is an incredibly stupid and uh and bad place

[10:22] and and again people need to touch some grass. Does this change anything for policy or procedure at the Daily Wire? Um, in

[10:28] terms of security procedure, we already had unbelievably high security precautions because, as you mentioned, you know, the number of death threats

[10:34] that I receive or Matt Walsh receives, Yeah. extremely extremely high. Uh, and so we have, you know, very strong security procedures, some multi-millions

[10:40] of dollars every year on my security on on Matt security and and all the rest. So, you know, I assume that it'll change

[10:47] some procedures. I can't imagine that it'll change too much because unfortunately, we've been operating in

[10:52] this world for a while. when you see all of these vigils in different cities, different countries even that lean

[10:57] pretty radically left pouring out support for Charlie Kirk, what does that mean for the world?

[11:02] So, I think that one of the the big things that that Charlie stood for and the thing that he was killed doing,

[11:08] which is what makes this so, again, I keep using the word horrifying, but I don't know another word for it. It really is just horrifying. But the

[11:15] reason for this is because Charlie was not siloed. The big mistake for the right here would be to silo itself and

[11:22] not have the kinds of conversations that Charlie was having when he was shot. Charlie specifically went out there and

[11:28] said something that those of us in the industry who've been doing this for a while said for a long time. If you disagree, go to the front of the line,

[11:34] right? Disagree front of the line. We need to have those conversations. We need to have those discussions. It's why millions of people became conservative

[11:39] because of Charlie. They weren't conservative before. They became conservative because Charlie was talking to them. And so while the right

[11:45] naturally is saying let's unify and I think that's true. The reality is that the biggest thing that Charlie stood for

[11:51] was the possibility of taking people from one political viewpoint to another political viewpoint. From one

[11:57] perspective about God to a different perspective about God. From one perspective about their own life to a different perspective about their own

[12:03] life. And that's the thing that we need to get out there and do. And that's why I think you saw such a breath and depth

[12:08] of of grief. And again, I got texts from people and calls from people who radically disagree with me on on

[12:14] politics, people who would be considered traditionally liberal, who were devastated at Charlie's death because of

[12:21] And that's a testament to Charlie. It wasn't just the right that that rose up in in a cry of of hurt and pain and

[12:29] anguish and rage. It was a bunch of people who either used to disagree with Charlie or still on some matters

[12:35] disagree with Charlie. And that's a testament to the breadth of his reach and and his capacity for for conversation.

[12:40] I have to ask you, what do you think about the rumors that Charlie was scared for his life wondering if Israel was

[12:46] going to allegedly take him out before he died? I I think there's a game that gets played online. Make a

[12:51] allegation. I use that word advisedly. And then when a bunch of people push back, you say, "Ah, you see, they've

[12:57] they've now taken the allegation seriously enough to deny it." There's not one iota of evidence that that's

[13:03] true. Not one. I was not at the meeting in the Hamptons with Bill Aman. I have

[13:08] friends who were at the meeting with with Bill Aman, right? People like Josh Hammer, for example, or Seth Dylan. I

[13:15] know that they'd been invited by Charlie and they've spoken pretty publicly, I believe, about what it was that that went down. Bill Aman has spoken pretty

[13:20] publicly. First of all, the notion that that Charlie would be quote unquote blackmailed into taking a position is just unbelievably silly. The people who

[13:27] are spreading these rumors, they're agents of demoralization. They are trying to to split the movement. They're

[13:33] trying to smear Charlie's legacy. I mean, Charlie

[13:39] was two things. He was a principled man who who argued in public and he was also a coalition builder. Coalition building is a very difficult business.

[13:45] Mhm. It's a business where you have to hold together a bunch of people who disagree on a bunch of different areas. And there can be real, as I said before, you know,

[13:51] disagreements behind the scenes about how to handle those sort of pragmatic matters of building a coalition. But the

[13:58] the this notion somehow that Charlie, for example, was radically shifting on Israel and suddenly he was going to turn

[14:04] into a fan of Hamas and and start preaching that. If you can show me

[14:09] evidence of that, I mean, I was interviewed on his show the day before he was shot and we laughed together

[14:14] about some of the allegations that were being made along these lines. Nobody's going to believe me who doesn't want to

[14:20] believe me online because that's how it works in the in the X space. But you know better than I do. You tell me. you were on the inside here.

[14:27] So my perspective being on the inside is um actually you said that perfectly about coalition building. So he was very

[14:35] disturbed by this splitting on the right. He was like this is a way bigger

[14:42] issue than we even realize. Like I mean the whole movement is basically splitting in half. Pro- Israel, anti-Israel. What am I going to do here?

[14:49] Like let's give everyone an opportunity to speak, share their sides. I mean, that's why he hosted this debate on

[14:55] Israel at SAS um this year, this summer. He was planning on having, you know, you

[15:00] speak at our events, Tucker speak at our events. Like, so it was like, let's just give everybody a platform. Internally, I

[15:05] never personally heard any like major worldview shifts on Israel like that. It

[15:12] it was just very much I'm hearing what everybody's saying. You know, you would know better than I would, but

[15:17] again, that that seemed to be my perception from the outside. I mean, again, until the day he was shot, he was publicly a pro-Israel person in every

[15:24] debate that he ever personally held in terms of his personal beliefs, which those were in the last couple months. I mean, that is very, very

[15:30] recent conversations. After that interview, just a few days before he died between you and Charlie on Israel,

[15:37] did he text you after the interview? Anything? No. The last text that I received from Charlie was inviting me to speak at I

[15:44] mean, I can pull it up. It was It was literally inviting me to speak at Amfest. Yeah. that and and I said yes and he

[15:50] said great we'll plan it. That was the last text that I received from Charlie and that would have been the prior Thursday maybe.

[15:56] And the last conversation I had with him was was the conversation that we had on air in 3 months from now in 5 years from

[16:01] now. How will we make sure that people remember Charlie Kirk? The amazing thing about Charlie is his

[16:07] ubiquity. So I think that obviously the clips of Charlie are never going to die. live out there and I think that they

[16:13] need to continue to be trafficked on TikTok where obviously had an enormous audience uh and on the various other

[16:18] social media platforms. I think that the the biggest thing that can be done is continuing to support TPUSA which of

[16:23] course as I said Daily Wire we're behind you guys. We believe that you're going to be able to navigate these waters. We believe in Charlie's mission and his

[16:29] legacy and we believe that again that fractious business of coalition building which is a tough business is is one that

[16:35] you guys are going to navigate properly. It's exactly what Erica said, right? building this movement is is what

[16:40] Charlie would have wanted and doing it in his name I think is something that that he would have wanted as well and so

[16:46] we're going to contribute to that as much as we can as a company I'll do that as much as I can personally you know what Charlie stood for in the end in the

[16:53] end was a belief that people need to make America better and make themselves

[16:59] better and that meant for him people need to go to church obviously was a very religious Christian

[17:04] people need to believe in Christ people need to go back to church people need to engage with the people to need to have open conversations. They need to believe

[17:10] in basic American values like family and faith and freedom. These are the things that Charlie stood for. If we stand for

[17:15] that and if we continue to cite Charlie, I think that's a good thing. I think

[17:21] it's a very good thing to continue to promote Charlie and continue to promote his content. Again, we're lucky we're left with this enormous mass of content

[17:28] that he bequeaths to us that we can still that we can still look at and gain inspiration from and pass on to our

[17:34] kids. I mean, I have kids who are, as I say, 11, 9, five, and two. I plan on showing them Charlie Cocypse. I ask every guest this. If you could

[17:40] offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically, emotionally, or spiritually. What would that remedy be?

[17:46] Go to church. Go to church. I say this is a Jew. Go to church. Why do you say that as a Jew? Because this is a Christian country. I

[17:52] want my I want Jews to go to synagogue. But there ain't that many of us. So if you're if you're a Christian or if you grew up in a Christian household, even

[17:59] if you didn't, go to church. Church is good for you. I've said that my entire career. Charlie said it his entire

[18:05] career. It ain't going to stop now. Thank you, Ben, for coming on Culture Apothecary. Thanks so much.

[18:12] How are you feeling? Actually, I'm okay. You know, uh there people that

[18:19] we should be more concerned about and praying for, you know, uh closer to Charlie. Got the news and uh my first

[18:26] reaction was, "Oh, you know, I hope it I hope it wasn't too bad. I hope, you know, he'll I hope his recovery won't be

[18:32] too bad." it it actually didn't occur to me that he could have been killed. We're all familiar with the threats and the

[18:39] attempts over the years, especially from the radical left. Um, and he was an extraordinarily

[18:45] uh prominent public figure uh globally actually, but but especially in the

[18:50] United States. And so, you know, he he understood those threats, but I thought, well, okay, you know, I hope it wasn't wasn't too bad. And then when it we

[18:57] realized what had happened, that was surreal. And uh my wife talked about it.

[19:04] She saw the video. I saw the far away video. I did not, thank God, see the close-up video. And I have not seen the

[19:09] close-up video. How did you All right. How do I have social media and I didn't see the video? I was very intentional about it. I'd

[19:15] heard that there was a video beforehand and I made a very very concerted effort not to see it. I don't need to see it. I

[19:21] know I know what happened. Uh she saw it and she said it was the strangest

[19:28] reaction because on the one hand she said he can't possibly be dead and then on

[19:34] the other hand having seen it she said he can't possibly be alive but he can't be dead. Charlie Kirk cannot be dead

[19:41] was her reaction. Obviously uh we've all been talking to each other and then and then talking about it publicly for those

[19:47] of us who who do that. And it took me about 3 days. You know what happens when

[19:53] a a family member or friend dies and it's just weighing on you and then you go to sleep and you dream about whatever

[20:01] and when you wake up anyone who's suffered a loss will will know this. You wake up and there's this one second

[20:06] where you say huh. Then one second later it hits you again. Say ah.

[20:13] So it was about the third day. Obviously there had been a lot of media, a lot of

[20:18] things happening behind the scenes, a lot of conversations happening. And I was sitting in my office at home, which

[20:23] is where I keep my Bibles and my religious items. And it's where I have, you know, real solitude.

[20:29] And it was about uh 11:00, 11:30, and I I had, you know, just been sort of

[20:36] staring at my computer, my phone. I was in principle doing work. What was the work? I had to write my show. And my show was Talk About Charlie. So, I

[20:42] didn't need more than 11 seconds really to write that. I was just staring, staring, and then I I just let it hit me

[20:48] for for about 90 seconds to 3 minutes, you know, really just the full force of

[20:53] it hitting. And uh men, we don't like to cry. And so I

[21:01] you let the tears come to your eyes and then you especially right-wing men, we just push it right back down. You say,

[21:06] "Okay, this is not what we're supposed to do." Uh but that that's when it hit me. Day three, obviously a lot of prayers. It's very helpful for for those

[21:13] of us on the right, especially, you know, Charlie, he was quite certain about what he believed and quite certain

[21:18] about where he was going. So, there's a consolation to that, but but it's a soft consolation in the short term, you know,

[21:25] for for uh Erica and for for the whole family, obviously. Have you gotten to talk to Erica at all?

[21:32] Yeah. Yeah. How was that? That was wonderful to be able to see her and uh you know but

[21:38] she's uh you know she's going through just about the worst thing that's imaginable. So uh

[21:44] she's uh I know she's in the prayers of millions of people around the world and she's just done an unbelievable job like

[21:51] a superhuman job of reacting to this with their children with the speech was

[21:58] you know superhuman that she was able to give. So she's a very strong and and uh

[22:05] you know serious person. Um but you know doesn't matter how strong and serious

[22:10] you are you know one simply has to grieve this kind of loss. There's an outpouring of support from many many

[22:16] millions of people all all around the world but but you know Jesus wept when his friend died even right before he

[22:22] raised his friend from the dead. So you know one simply has to mourn. And I know

[22:27] there are people who mean very well in the public space who, you know, their first reaction is to be really happy

[22:33] clappy about everything. And Charlie had a an absolutely certain uh faith, hope,

[22:38] and charity, all three of the theological virtues. But one still grieavves. It's just a terribly, terribly sad thing. And and uh there's

[22:47] there's no getting past it, you know. That's really the point, I guess. Do you remember the first time that you ever heard of Charlie Kirk or that you

[22:53] met him? Yeah. I don't know about the first time I heard of him. I had heard of him before I met him. I do vividly

[23:00] remember the first time I met him. Tell us about it. I was in the Fox Green Room in LA. This

[23:06] was about 150 years ago. And it was 4:00 in the morning because the morning show LA time, you know, is awful. It's like

[23:12] 3:00 a.m. or or whatever. So, I'm sitting there. I lived in LA. And I'm sitting there half asleep and Charlie

[23:19] walks in probably off some flight. I don't know. Hadn't slept in three days. bouncing off the walls. Hey, Nolles.

[23:26] Hey, what's going on? This boom boom boom. And I'm there. You know, I should have been adjusted to the time. And I'm,

[23:31] you know, I buddy, come on. I'm trying to sleep or whatever. And uh but he was just full of boundless energy. And it

[23:37] gets to gets to the bigger point on faith and everything, which is they say

[23:42] that all the way to heaven is heaven. All the way to heaven is heaven. And you

[23:47] really could see it with him. I I never saw him down. I could see him a little

[23:52] stressed out. A little obviously, you know, he was managing like the equivalent of five people's careers at

[23:59] the very highest levels of politics and media, but uh I never saw him down at

[24:04] all. Uh which which is not accidental, you know, that's not merely coincidental. There were definitely like you could

[24:11] tell there were moments I mean just working here for the last six years. Um and one of like the I mean we have

[24:18] exploded in the last few years. I mean, when I first got hired in 2019, there was like, I don't know, 40 employees.

[24:25] Like, we could all fit in one building. Now, we have tons of buildings. Like, it's it's just crazy. I don't even know everybody who works here at this point.

[24:30] We've grown so much. But at that time, I mean, there were definitely those moments where it was like he was very motivated to get things done, that type

[24:36] of like stressed. But, yeah, never raised his voice at people, never cursed

[24:43] at people. um never spoke poorly about others, never

[24:50] gossiped about others. And you know, JD Vance, the the vice

[24:55] president, kind of echoed that. He said that that's something that Erica had told him. Yeah. That that he had never raised his voice

[25:01] or spoke, you know, shortly with her. And he said, "Well, that is just such motivation to me to be a better

[25:06] husband." Because every husband falls short. He's like, "I guess Charlie was an anomaly. Thanks, Charlie." Um but

[25:11] when you heard that, what did you think? Well, it totally rings true. The guy really was who he said he was. And that

[25:18] isn't always the case in sometimes is the case in public life, but but not always. And those of us though who had

[25:24] spent some time with the guy over a long period of time uh could tell no, he

[25:29] really was that guy, you know, literally a boy scout and his faith really was sincere. In in some ways, I think it's

[25:36] it's one of the things that made him so successful. You know, we have this idea in politics that you have to be a mchavelian animal in order to succeed.

[25:44] And he he really disproves that because with him, the truth is usually the simplest uh option. You don't have to

[25:51] keep track of all of your lies and all of these things. And he was a complete straight shooter with everyone,

[25:58] including not only his friends, not only his political allies, not only his colleagues, but but with his enemies,

[26:04] too, you know. And you can judge a man by his enemies. And he had a he had the caliber of enemy that would tell you

[26:11] that he was not only on the right side of things but extraordinarily effective. And it's important to know the

[26:16] difference between your friends and your enemies. If if for no other reason, as a friend of mine points out, for no other reason than to know who to pray for. You

[26:23] know, Christ tells us to pray for our enemies and love our enemies. And so it's it's good to know that. And and he

[26:29] he lived that out every day. He he you could you could see the great charity that he had even and especially for his

[26:35] enemies. There was a little bit of news the day that we're recording this that just came out that the Biden

[26:41] administration had created a a federal investigation that they called Arctic Frost. And

[26:48] whistleblowers alleged that this was a corrupt FBI investigation that they were

[26:54] looking into over 90 names in Republican politics and media and that

[27:01] one of them was Turning Point USA, of course. And so my question for you is

[27:07] what does it say about our justice system when the federal government investigates political opponents under

[27:13] the guise of security? Well, that's nothing new. Uh Barack Obama was also doing that in a in a

[27:19] transparently uh corrupt way. And he was re he was exposed for having done that though they

[27:26] never faced any consequences. Unfortunately, we saw the corruption of the DOJ from the earliest days of the

[27:31] Trump campaign all the way through Trump's first administration. Uh I I this is the first I'm hearing of that,

[27:38] but it doesn't surprise me at all. In fact, I think most of us would have guessed that something like that would

[27:44] have existed. But I guess the KOD to that whole story is who controls the DOJ

[27:49] now? You know, who's in the White House now? And the answer is we are. That's how this information is coming out. And

[27:56] one of the major reasons that we do have that political power now is Charlie. This is not hyperbole. This is not just

[28:02] a nice thing that one says after a person dies. This is a fact. There

[28:08] almost certainly is not a Trump second term without Charlie Kirk. And so even the fact that these sorts of things are

[28:14] coming to light now days after Charlie was killed is quite directly attributable to him. And and not only

[28:22] his clear vision, he had a very clear vision. It was very good. not only to his great great charity and generosity

[28:27] for everyone which was manifest but to his effectiveness. They didn't target him. Whether we're talking about the

[28:33] assassin or whether we're talking about Biden DOJ, they did not target him because he was ineffective. Quite the

[28:38] opposite. So here's what's crazy you saying this. When we first, you know, were told

[28:44] officially that he had passed, I went through three immediate things popped

[28:49] into my brain. First thing was, and I had tweeted it, was I am so thankful

[28:55] that Charlie loved and knew Jesus. Two, how in the world are we supposed to

[29:00] go on without him? Yeah. And three, thank God Trump is president because I knew that if this would have

[29:08] been a Kla Harris administration and we didn't have Cash Patel, we didn't have Dan Bonino, I was like, we would never

[29:15] have answers. It would have been downplayed. would have been pushed out of the news.

[29:20] There would be no justice or it would be Yes. swept under the rug. And I was just like, "Thank you, Jesus." And and it was

[29:26] crazy because I was like, "And the reason we have that, the reason we have it is literally because of Charlie."

[29:31] Yes. And you know, it it's I was going to say little things. I guess these aren't really little things. A national

[29:37] address from the Oval Office by the president of the United States that really focuses how people are

[29:42] thinking about it. uh the vice president filling in to host Charlie's podcast,

[29:48] host his friend's podcast that really focuses attention and the the outpouring

[29:54] of grief and love and attention that actually preceded the Oval Office

[30:00] conference and the the Oval Office address and the vice president that w that was all Charlie. That was people

[30:05] reacting to Charlie. Someone who in many in many cases were actually friends with him. Charlie had many many real friends

[30:14] uh but also people who just felt that they were friends of his because he was on their phone all the time for years. I

[30:19] mean some kids grew up listening to him. He he really formed the way they thought about politics. Some people radically

[30:25] changed their views of politics and of man's relation to the cosmos you know their religious views because of

[30:31] Charlie. So they felt that this really personal uh connection to him and and they were grieving him because of that.

[30:38] But the fact that then the political powers flew in and said, "Hey, hey, yes,

[30:45] now let's focus and let's bring some justice. Let's bring some reforms to

[30:51] punish the bad people. Take the antisocial elements that are totally undermining our society out of polite

[30:58] society and and let's let's really do something here. Let's be effective, which is uh very much in keeping with

[31:05] Charlie's career." There are two descriptions that are being thrown um around right now about Charlie Kirk. One

[31:10] is that he was a civil rights leader and two is that he was a martyr. Do you

[31:16] agree with any of those? Well, he he was it depends on uh how you

[31:21] define these terms. The left has taken the term civil rights leader to mean any, you know, race hustler or uh sexual

[31:28] deviant who wants to push some radical leftwing agenda. But of course, Charlie was a civil rights leader in the true

[31:35] sense of that term. He actually he defended the right, not the wrong. And and he was eminently civil. He was

[31:42] eminently civil. He was killed because he was civil. Uh in terms of martyrdom, I I think that

[31:49] one one cannot escape the fact that he was killed not merely because of his political views, not merely because he

[31:55] liked low taxes or whatever. He he was he was killed because of what he had to say about the nature of man and the

[32:03] relation of the body to the soul and about God, about Christ. You know, he he

[32:08] he never let an opportunity go by when when he did not preach the gospel to

[32:14] people. And so, uh I guess theologians can quibble about the meaning of of that term, but but there is no question he

[32:21] was targeted be because ultimately of his faith and religious convictions. You

[32:26] said that in the aftermath of Charlie's death, it would be reckless to redevote ourselves to protecting the marketplace

[32:32] of ideas. Redouble. Redouble. Yes. In in the wake of Charlie's assassination,

[32:38] there are there are people who in great sincerity say that the most important thing to do right now is to redouble our

[32:45] devotion to the open marketplace of ideas. And this seems like a noble and courageous thing and it comes from a

[32:51] good place. But it is in fact uh reckless be because

[32:57] we had an open marketplace of ideas or something like it and the left shut it up. And so

[33:04] we we cherish the healthy exchange of ideas. No one did so more than Charlie. Uh but nice words and soft soap will not

[33:14] accomplish that. Uh because marketplaces require rules. You can't have a marketplace of ideas or of anything else

[33:21] or of bananas. If people uh are are shooting up the marketplace, if there

[33:26] are not basic rules uh common media of exchange, trust in in that sort of

[33:33] system. And so what what is required for any kind of liberty for that matter is

[33:40] first order. In that sense, do you agree then that that is why it's okay for

[33:45] people to be saying uh some need to be losing their jobs or being expelled from school if they are celebrating his death

[33:52] or saying that he deserved it? Yes. So for instance uh the celebration

[33:57] of murder that's a good that's a good example because it's so egregious. One cannot tolerate the celebration of

[34:04] murder for engaging in political debate within the the so-called marketplace of

[34:10] ideas because rather than that kind of thing expanding the marketplace of ideas, it actually undermines the whole

[34:17] thing. If someone comes out and says, "I encourage everyone to go murder that conservative if if he dares to open his

[34:24] mouth," you're not thereby increasing speech. You're not thereby increasing the exchange of ideas. You're completely

[34:30] shutting it down. This is why and our our founders and framers wrote about this extensively but it's even in the

[34:35] constitution in the first amendment. This is why certain kinds of speech are not protected by the first amendment.

[34:41] Things like direct threats, things like fighting words for that matter, things like fraud, things like obscenity. There

[34:47] there are a number of of categories of of sound that are not protected as

[34:52] speech. And the reason is not to shrink uh the marketplace of ideas, but to

[34:58] protect it. You cannot have, in the words of GK Chesterton, a thought that stops thought. In the words of

[35:05] Chesterton, that's the only thought that ought to be stopped. You cannot simultaneously, for instance, be free

[35:10] and undisiplined. The founders and framers wrote extensively about this. Uh you you you can you cannot

[35:16] simultaneously be free and totally ignorant. You have to know some basic things. This is this is why we don't let

[35:22] toddlers vote because they don't know anything and they're not disciplined. We know this intuitively. We can also arrive at this philosophically. And so

[35:29] what is needed now, it would seem to me, is the reassertion of order. Uh and the

[35:36] kind of order that makes liberty possible, that makes the exchange of ideas possible. It's not that we arrive at at these

[35:43] basic truths and moral goods is the asmtoic end goal of endless debate.

[35:49] Rather, these are the axioms without which debate is not possible. It's it's like in mathematics with within

[35:56] mathematics you you don't start from nothing. You have to start from axioms. And so an example would be a equals a. I

[36:03] can't prove that a plus b equals b plus a. I can't prove that. However, I can't

[36:09] prove anything else without accepting that as a premise. And the same is true

[36:14] in in speech and debate and public life. As Lewis talks about this. He calls this

[36:20] the dao. Others call it the natural law or the first principles of practical

[36:25] reason. Certain basic things that I can't exactly prove. I can't exactly prove to you that it's wrong to commit

[36:31] murder. But I can't prove anything else about morality if I don't accept that. That has always been the case uh in our

[36:39] society. And so if if all of a sudden you have a society where people deny these basic axiomatic truths in in a way

[36:46] that is that is in fact threatening and inciting violence then then you have to

[36:52] you have to stop that. You have to punish that. You you can't expect someone to send their children to a

[36:57] school at which the teacher is encouraging those children to be murdered. Mhm. You cannot go to a hospital uh when the

[37:06] nurses and the surgeons are openly calling for the murder of you and half the country along with you. I can't go

[37:11] to a restaurant if the cooks and the servers are talking about how much they want to poison me. You can't you cannot

[37:19] have those things. You cannot have a society in that way. And so, uh none of this is particularly revolutionary. You

[37:25] know, these were always considered basic truths. And isn't that just conservatism, common sense? Yes, it is actually. And and so in a

[37:31] political reform like this, which is something that we're talking about now, it's always good to air on the side of

[37:37] caution, you know, uh so you say, look, we're it's not that we want to uh throw

[37:42] people out of the public square or ostracize people for saying things that we merely disagree with.

[37:47] We're talking about particularly egregious examples that undermine the whole public order. And so I think a

[37:53] good place to begin here is uh with those who would celebrate and encourage

[37:59] the murder of innocent people simply for speaking. There's a lot of rumors online that Charlie was considering converting to

[38:05] Catholicism. You just did an interview, right, with Charlie about Catholicism or we had you talked about faith a million

[38:10] conversations and that was recent. That was a recent conversation. So is there any legitimacy to Charlie potentially converting to

[38:17] Catholicism as of recent? You know, it's funny because Charlie and I, we always jive each other about religion, you

[38:24] know, and almost every conversation, certainly publicly, we get a kick out of doing that publicly. Privately,

[38:29] conversations are a little bit different. And so, look, it's not really my place to reveal uh my own opinion of

[38:35] this or other conversations I've had with Charlie. And uh his his publicly stated views speak for themselves. And

[38:41] if other people close to him, you know, want to reveal private conversations, they're welcome to. That's not my place

[38:46] to do it. All I will say on this fact is I feel good about Charlie. I feel good about Charlie.

[38:52] His salvation, you mean? Yes. I I feel good. We trust to God's extraordinary mercy, you know, and and

[38:57] and we pray for for the dead. And uh I do at least. Um but I I I feel good

[39:03] about Charlie. Uh and and the thing that I will certainly say that is obviously

[39:08] public is Charlie took religion very very seriously and he took truth very

[39:14] seriously and he would he would pursue it rigorously and uh he he could do it

[39:21] bombastically even you know zealously. So you know he he that's what he cared about obviously most of all. Um so

[39:30] people sometime when whenever anyone dies especially someone who really cares about religion they say well what would

[39:37] this person have believed 10 or 20 years from now I don't know you know we don't have that time so all that all that we

[39:42] can do is pray for our friend uh in faith and uh and you know feel whatever

[39:49] consolation we have from our public or private conversations and so the the thing that is uh giving me some

[39:55] personally some consolation is I feel good about him. I ask every guest this that comes on the show, if you could

[40:00] offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would it be?

[40:05] The first thing you have to do is pray ideally on your knees. That's the first thing you have to do personally. And

[40:12] that's physical, emotional, and spiritual, by the way, because we're bodies, too. We're not just spirits floating in outer space. That's what

[40:18] modern ideologies say, Gnostic ideologies, the transgender ideology, for example, says that our body has

[40:23] nothing to do with who we really are. But no, no, it's in our bodies. you know, our Lord is incarnate in the flesh in history and he picks real apostles

[40:31] and he leaves them real sacraments and then when he's he's crucified and resurrected, he broils them real fish,

[40:37] you know, that's how he appears to them and eats it, you know, in his body. So the body really matters and that's the first thing because it uh gives you the

[40:44] ability to look up and uh Chesterton again this popped in when one of his

[40:49] detective stories one of the conclusions is don't pray in high places because from high places everyone looks like

[40:55] ants but when you're on your knees you can look up to heaven. So that's the first thing you got to do personally. You have to talk to God. You

[41:01] know God's real and so you should talk to him shouldn't you? That's before you call your mother even you should talk to

[41:06] God. Um, that's the first thing. But we're political creatures as well. We're

[41:13] a social animal. And so, uh, we need the the public authority to recognize

[41:21] truths, to recognize goods like the common good, and to pursue them. You

[41:27] know, this is the this is statecraft 101 going all the way back to the first caveman community, which is that good is

[41:34] to be done and evil is to be avoided. And there is much that flows from that basic observation. But that's the that

[41:40] is the first charge that we have. Good is to be done and evil is to be avoided. And one of the problems that we have in

[41:46] our modern culture is that we not only deny good, we deny that we can even distinguish between good and bad. We

[41:53] it's not only that we deny truth, we deny that we can distinguish between truth and falsehood. If that is the

[41:58] case, not only should we hang up self-government, we should hang up our humanity because we're we're

[42:04] surrendering our reason. We can know these things and and so what is called for now is not only the clarity of

[42:09] vision that I think most of us have deep down but it's the courage to say no no no I I will promote the good and I will

[42:17] suppress evil and I will promote truth and I will suppress falsehood and I won't we'll have a light touch and we'll

[42:24] have all of these wonderful subsidiarity and federalism and all these nice uh things that attend to politics

[42:31] but let's not mince words here you know let's let's do what we know is right. Uh

[42:37] those would be the two sides of it because we're all going to face our particular judgment as individuals. But we are going to live in in this life and

[42:44] in the life to come as part of a community, the the political community here in this in this world and also in

[42:50] this world and in the life of the world to come as part of the mystical body of Christ. So we need to do things together

[42:55] too. Michael Nolles, thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary and honoring our friend Charlie with me. Thank you for having me. It's wonderful

[43:00] to be with you. Big thank you to Michael and Ben for

[43:05] being so open and vulnerable and sharing so much with us. In the next episode, I'll be talking to arguably one of the

[43:12] closest people in Charlie's life. All about his marriage, how he managed a work life balance, why people on

[43:19] Charlie's team started taking down cameras immediately after he was shot, what will happen with the Charlie Kirk

[43:25] show, a more in-depth look at Charlie's potential conversion to Catholicism and feelings on Israel. what Erica being CEO

[43:32] means for Turning Point USA and more. Please leave a five-star review. Tell others why they should be listening to

[43:37] Culture Apothecary. We're on a mission to heal us culture twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, 600 p.m. Pacific, 9:00

[43:43] p.m. Eastern. Make sure you're subscribed. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.

[43:49] [Music]