Charlie Kirk and Pastor Allen Jackson Explore the Unseen Spiritual Forces Shaping American Culture and Faith

This is culture and Christianity. Our goal is to understand how we live our faith outside of the church building. It can be encouraged in the church, strengthened in the church, informed in the church, but ultimately the the the revelation of what we believe and who we are is when we're not a church. And so that's the point of this podcast. Um, I traveled recently out to to um Phoenix actually to sit down with my friend Charlie Kirk in a public setting. It was a public meeting to talk about our my new book, Angels, Demons, and You. Charlie wonder if we could sit down and talk about that in front of a live audience. And so we did that. You may notice that the the quality is a little different than what we do in a studio. It's because we weren't in the studio, but I believe the audio is more than clear enough you can hear it. And if it's a bit grainy with the video, that probably is to my benefit. So, I think you'll enjoy the conversation. I'll tell you one of my takeaways, you know, when we were all done is I think many of you probably know Charlie Kirk and his the hard work he's done and the important work he's done on our college campuses and a voice into the lives of our young people for a more conservative worldview, even a biblical worldview, I would say. But I I I said yes to the opportunity because I think it's important and I know Charlie and I both agree on this point that the the spiritual formation of our lives is really what is expressed in the culture. You know, culture doesn't begin with political with labels of conservative and liberal or progressive or democrat or republican. The culture is a reflection of the moral fabric of the people. And so that biblical worldview is essential if our liberties and freedoms are going to be sustained. And the voices that are clamoring for the separation of the church and state. We don't want a state church. We want the state determining what the church should believe. And we don't want our government to be a theocracy. Not until our Lord and King comes back and then I'm way good with it. In the interim, we have to use the value structures that we embrace to help make our world a better place. And the church has been quiet and timid for too long. Not Charlie. And so this topic of angels, demons, and you, this, the unseen spiritual forces that shape our lives provided for a pretty lively conversation. And then we got into the Q&A at the end of the the session, it got even more interesting. I think you'll enjoy the conversation. And if you haven't read the book yet, uh, take a few minutes and do so. I think it will be a blessing to you. Hello everybody. How we doing tonight? We we have we have a please take a seat. We have a very special guest tonight. So I'm not going to talk for long. Author of this incredible book, Angel Demons and You. It's very important to understand there is a invisible spiritual battle happening around us every single day. And that spiritual battle manifests in many ways in politics, in the culture. And I've gotten to know Pastor Alan Jackson over uh the last couple of months especially. Been very impressed by his Bible teaching. In fact, I learned from Pastor Luke that he came to one of Pastor Tommy's uh trainings what 25 years ago, pastor school 25 years ago and has been faithfully teaching the word. And he said, "I learned so much from that seminar and that event." Just amazing how much Dream City impacts the world. You don't even know about until 25 years later. And so, this is just a remarkable testament. And I'm going to be short here at the beginning because I also want to be make sure we get to questions because there are always questions that people have that we are not able to get to. So I'm going to just get right to it. Join me in welcoming our guest tonight, Pastor Alan Jackson, author of Angel Demons in You. Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor Jackson. Welcome to Dream City Church. It is an honor to be here, Charlie. Thank you. What an amazing legacy this place and what you the impact you have made and you are making. I love that. So, so pastor, introduce yourself. We could tell you're kind of from the south. You know, people are already trying to decipher that. How south are we talking here? Not quite Louisiana, right? No, I'm in Nashville. So, it's an authentic hillbilly you hear in my voice. So, I studied at Gordon Conwell for a while in Boston. That my nickname was Goomemer. So, yeah, I've got a little bit of an accent. So, you you you run a church? I do. I serve a congregation. It's World Outreach Church. It's actually in Murphreey'sboro, Tennessee. Um, come on. Um, I have been there 40 years. I was 7 years old when I came. You can do the math. Okay. So, I was a prodigy. No, the Lord's been very good. We started with a tent. Uh, my parents had a Bible study in their home for a dozen years. Uh, it's a bit of a my my we were we went to church every week and we weren't Christian. You know, you can do that. Then when I was seven, the doctors told my mom she had six months to live. And the pastor that came to visit didn't believe in heaven or hell. The problems in our churches today are not new, folks. This has been we've been building this for a long, long time. And in Ruto Clinic for some really dramatic surgery, she said a prayer that if there was a God, she could know the truth before she died. So she could leave that as a legacy for her sons. I have two brothers. And after a 4-day workup at Mayo Clinic, a doctor came in and said, "You had cancer. You have we have pictures, but we can't find it. Go home and raise your babies." And a few weeks later, she's washing dishes. And she heard a voice. And we were Methodists, and Methodists don't hear voices. And the voice said, "You asked to know the truth before you died." And she said, "Yes, I did." And he said, "I'm the way, the truth, and the life." And she knew it was somewhere in the Bible. So she went and got a Bible and looked until she found John 14. And so my parents became Christians, and it changed our whole home. And out of that, a Bible study. And decades later, a church. So I understand a church that is an extension of faith in a family. So there's something about this place, I think, that feels like home to me. So, but we're still doing that, serving Middle Tennessee. And as technologies changed, now you can sit in middle Tennessee and talk to the world. And then we meet people like this that have more courage than 99% of the pastors I know. And so we said if there's anything we can do to stand with Turning Point and Turning Point Faith and what Charlie and Lucas and their teams are doing to add momentum to that that we're in. So we're in Phoenix for a day. Well, thank you and we are honored to partner with you. And so I want to talk about this book because it is a topic that we at Freedom Night have really not touched on I'm thinking over about a year year and a half which is the spiritual battle. And there's sometimes there's a lot of let's just say conjecture when it comes to the spiritual war where some people think that there's a demon under every pillow or an angel around every corner. I think it's really important to go back to scripture for all answers, but especially when it comes to these complicated topics. And when I, you know, when I see Angel and Demons, I first think it's a novel, but it's not. It wasn't the the author of the Dan Brown, didn't he write Angel and Demons, the Da Vinci Code? Yes. Am I right about that? Yeah. Yeah. Don't Don't watch that movie. It's terrible. Don't This is the much better angels and demons than you. Amen. And so, let's get back to foundational scripture. What does the Bible, the word of God say about angels? What does it say about demons? Are they real? Is it is it biblical to say that there is an angelic and a demonic realm? I think it's not only biblical, I think it's essential, you know, and I agree completely. We want to come from the the what scripture tells us plainly and clearly. And I would submit to you as a thesis that spiritual forces impacted your life today. And if you're not aware of that and you're not intentionally engaged with that equation and that formula, then you're just being buffeted by whatever. And I don't think that's the best way to navigate life. I prefer to be more intentional. And I I like this. I want to start with the angels because I think that's more important. Too often in the church world or the part I've been a part of, we want to focus on demons. But Jesus life and ministry was impossible apart from the angelic help and support. I mean, it started with Zechariah and Elizabeth with Gabriel and the announcement to Zechariah that there's going to be a child and then Mary and Joseph without the angel's engagement. There was no birth narrative to emerge. Uh Jesus after his baptism and he's tempted in the wilderness, the angels come and minister to him. In Gethsemane, the angels minister to him. Satan said to Jesus at the temptation, you know, the angels will keep you from from harming yourself. Satan was aware of the angel's involvement in Jesus life and ministry and you follow it into the book of Acts and there is no book of Acts with the angelic intervention there. They're a part of that narrative. You know, I'm I come from a world where Acts chapter 2 is a big deal and I don't want to diminish that, but I also don't want to diminish the angelic intervention in that. And we've been pretty much pacifist about that. You know, if you have a passive attitude towards God, you'll miss the kingdom of God. If you say, "If God wants me to go to heaven, he'll get me there." You'll go to hell with that attitude. You have to personally choose to believe and accept Jesus into your heart. You have to join a church. No church has got a headlock on the whole truth. Well, I believe the same is true with spiritual engagements. You have to make a decision and begin to use your words and your minds, the tools God's given you. Um, I' I've developed the habit particularly since working on this project of every day beginning by asking God to release the angels for the help for the the tasks and assignments I have for the day. And it it's changing what's happening in my life. So I don't think it's a frightening book. I think it's a liberating book. So in in Hebrew and in Greek, an angel means a messenger. And so sometimes people would think of an angel as uh a being with wings that will fly around. What does scripture tell us about the essence of an angel? Is an angel more than just a messenger? Because we we can go into the book of Ezekiel and we can see that the angels have a lot more dimension than just communicating with human beings. Separate fact from fiction and scripture from folklore. What does scripture say about what an angel actually is? Well, there's a lot. Angels are warriors. In the book of Daniel, if we're going to go to the Hebrew Old Testament, um you know, there's these pictures of angels bringing messages to Daniel, telling him he's highly esteemed by God. Now, Daniel is a unic serving his whole life as a slave in a foreign court. That does not feel like a position of great favor. We have to recalibrate. You see, we tend to think God blesses us if everything's going our way and our lottery ticket won. Sometimes you can be living in the midst of the favor of God and and paying a steep price for being a trutht teller. Now Daniel prospered in many ways, but he was falsely accused. But the angels are an integral part of that. And and Daniel was so trustworthy that God gives him a revelation of the end of the age far beyond Daniel's life. If I could give you an invitation, be such a trustworthy component of what God is doing in the earth during your life that he will use you to provide information for the generations who follow you. It's a different attitude. But you get to the book of Revelation and the angels are central players. They're they're essential in the judgment of God at the conclusion of this age. And they're referred to in many ways as mighty angels. So there's a difference in the strength of angels. You wouldn't designate one as mighty if they all had the same strength. So there's as I believe there's as much differentiation amongst the angels as there are amongst human beings. They're created beings and God seems if to be anything he's creative. So I think there's a great deal of diversity amongst the angels and there are angels that are very engaged in the judgment upon the earth when Jesus told the parable of the wheat and the tears. Remember that he said that at the end of the age the fe the the field was the world and the angels would be the harvesters. So, it's just it's it's really against scripture to imagine that we're going to lead our lives without angelic intervention and engagement that says that we entertain angels and we don't recognize them. So, I don't think they have wings and feathers or smell like cookies if you remember the John Travolta movie. Not that I watched it, but I I have friends who did and they told me about that. But I I think it it's really a it's it's not the only step, but it's a step in to the reality of spiritual things. I don't believe you can understand what's happening in America today if you try to understand it only in term of politics or ideologies. There's a spiritual conflict for our nation and it's what makes the church so essential. It's what makes a night like this so essential. If if we think because Trump got elected and JD Vance is the vice president, we can go sit back in our recliners and quote our favorite verses, we will forfeit the opportunity that God gave us last November. So you said something very operative. So there's a temptation then to pray to angels. Can you reconcile how we are supposed to deal with angels? They are not God. They are created beings. So they're below our creator. But are they above human beings? Are they former human beings? What does the scripture say about that? Especially as we must under all conditions defend monotheism. We are not a polytheistic faith. We do not believe the angels are divine. So help us make sense of that. Yeah, it's it's a very interesting point. Um, human beings are in scripture are set apart from any other aspect of God's creation. We're the image bearers. Um, we we get to that in Genesis chapter 1. That those opening chapters of Genesis give you the big rock ideas for the whole rest of the Bible. By the time you get to Genesis 11, you've been introduced to the big ideas of scripture. And and human beings are set apart from all the rest of creation. We're not just the highest rung of the evolutionary ladder. In fact, we're told to exercise dominion and authority over all creation. And in those opening chapters is the fall when we rebel against God and reject all that he's given to us. And God announces in those early chapters his plan for redemption. Well, the angels rebelled. A portion of the angels rebelled against God. Satan is a fallen angel. And there is no redemptive plan for the angels. So when we talk about God being a God of infinite grace and mercy, which is a common fallacy I believe in so much of the messaging today, there is an end to the mercy and grace of God. God's grace and mercy in is intended to bring us to repentance, not to bring us to greater license. And the evidence of that is the angels. When the angels rebelled, there's no plan for their restoration. When human beings rebelled and fell, God put in place the incarnation. My son will become one of you. He didn't become an angel. Hebrews talks about this in in more detail than probably we want to here. But so yeah, the angels have a different role. I don't believe we direct the angels or command the angels, but they are busy with God's assignment to help us, support us, strengthen us. They fed Elijah after his victory over Jezebel and Ahab and the the fire on Mount Carmel and he's fled to the desert. There are these multiple places where the angels have assignments, you know, and and there's there's an almost unlimited number. We have one scene in in the book of Revelation where there's 100 million angels in one scene. Well, if US population is 300 million people roughly, imagine one scene where you could see a third of the population of the US. Obviously, you can't put them in one room. It's it's a drone fly over. It's an it's a group that disappears into the horizon. So, I mean, there's a significant force of messengers, warriors, agents about the business of God active in the earth today. And I don't believe we can live our lives just completely unaware of that. So, can angels take human form? Yeah, the scripture seems to suggest that certainly, you know, I mean, and in in many respects, we have pre-incarnate appearances of Christ, you know, and and the the real honest answer, and I'm really comfortable with this, so if this bothers you, I'll apologize on the front end. There's a lot I don't know. I know that's a shock to you because you all thought there was nothing I didn't know, but there's and I'm at peace with that. And I've been stud reading my Bible for a long time. I came to pastor school 30 years ago and I'm still very much a learner. And I I don't think there's any question that angels can appear in human form. Um it it's why we have to have we need an awareness of spiritual things that is dramatically different than what we've been coached to up to this point. Um I think for the most part we just don't attach much value, strength or authority to spiritual forces and it's the reason the church is so close to impotent. I mean political power, economic power, military power, they're all real things but they are very much a weak imitation of the power of God. Jesus spoke the wind and the waves and he raised the dead to life and he turned water into wine. And I mean Jesus was never intimidated or threatened or frightened. He stood with Pilate, the most powerful political figure in Israel at the time. And Pilate's getting a little agitated with Jesus lack of cooperation. And he said, "Do you know who I am? I have the authority to crucify you or turn you loose." And Jesus said, "The Living Bible, actually, unless my dad gave it to you, you don't have any authority." Well, the church needs to live with an awareness of the authority that's been entrusted to us. And it doesn't mean we're in control. We're not. We're servants of the king. But we serve under the authority of that kingdom. And we're supposed to rep reflect that authority. And that's more than sermons and church services. So now to the second component, which is demons. And you mentioned this. They are fallen angels as described in I believe the book of Ezekiel where they rebelled against God. And this is predating the creation. Is that right? That's inferred if I'm not mistaken. So demons are onethird of all the angels rebelled. Is that right? And so if we are to again I don't want to ever read something that's not in the text, but essentially what is being described was a pretty insane civil war in heaven. a mutiny that then got basically dealt with an insub like an in insubordination of the highest celestial order. Is that a fair reading of the text or am I giving a little bit too much liberty into what the scriptures say? Well, the information we have is limited in my opinion. I'm not one that likes to extra extrapolate very far beyond the plain reading of the text and I don't believe the Bible really gives us the ultimate origin of demons. My opinion, and I I'll put this that this way. My opinion, I don't think demons are the fallen angels. There's a there's a there's an a variety of opinion on that. You could disagree with me. We could both go to heaven. I'm good with that. It's okay. I I don't think demons behave like angels. You know, angels have a place of authority. They're a part of a structured thing. Um that demons exist is very clear. A a prominent idea, certainly not unique to me, is that the demons would represent uh perhaps the disembodied spirits of a padamic race. Something happened before Genesis 1:2. That's opinion. That's not hard scripture. So don't don't. But what is very clear in scripture is that Jesus believed in demons. Mark chapter 1, first chapter, he's in the synagogue in Capernium, and there's a man there who's demonized. The the Greek is very helpful here. Not demonpossessed. It it says literally he's demonized. He's influenced by a demon. We get caught up in these debates about words. And he he he disrupts the synagogue service. Jesus tells the demon to leave the man. The demon says, "I know who you are. Nobody else knows yet." So that that unclean spirit, which is a really good translation for that word demon, that unclean spirit has more spiritual awareness than the rabbi or any of the the senior leaders in that gathering of people of faith. Jesus renounces the demon, tells us to leave, and the man gets to stay in the synagogue. Current practice in I mean, I've spent my life in church, if somebody disrupts us, we remove the person and leave the demons in the people. because we have so little comfort with the whole notion of an unclean spirit. So what we do know is demons torment. They they tend to inhabit living things or or or torment living things. And I I don't I don't like to focus on that. I much prefer to focus on what the Holy Spirit is doing and the purposes of God than to spend my time focused on the unclean, the dark. But I think any aspect, short answer, any aspect of your carnal nature that you give license to, you can get unclean spiritual support for. That's right. If you choose to give yourself the luxury of giving expression to your anger and you don't discipline yourself, I think you can come to a place where you'll get spiritual support that makes it hard for you to control. I've sat with hundreds of people who said, 'You know, I have I know whatever this behavior is is destroying me, but I cannot stop. The easy way to tell between a a clean and an unclean spirit, a holy and an unholy spirit, the Holy Spirit will never dominate you, manipulate you, or control you. I've never heard anybody say, you know, I can't stop being holy. I don't want to be holy. I can't stop being holy. It's overwhelming me. But I've sat with hundreds of people that describe some self-destructive behavior that they feel powerless to stop until they meet the authority of Jesus and then they can be free. It's not a power encounter. It's a truth encounter. You don't have to shout and scream. So, I got one more like kind of wonky theological question that I think the audience will appreciate in in I think it's Genesis 3 or 4. I think it is three. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the scriptures say the angels came down and actually bred with mankind. Am I wrong in that reading? And do you touch on the Nephilim in your book? And what are we to make of this idea that the angels, these celestial beings, procreated with image bearsers? I I think your description is the generally accepted reading of the passage. No. And if I'm correct me on No, no. I think I think that is I mean there's I never want to read anything that's not in the text. So feel free to correct me. So four theologians you'll have 11 opinions. So but I think that is the generally accepted and I don't disagree with that. To me what's intriguing with that is is the the insight he gives us into the character of God. He creates beings and he gives them freedom. Again it's the difference between a holy the Holy Spirit and an unholy spirit. Even the angels, God gave them freedom. And there's this mistaken people who stand outside the kingdom of God and have not given Jesus that preeminent preeminent place in their life. They think he's going to take something away from them, diminish their life. He'll take away pleasure or joy or happiness or something. And it's it's a perversion of the gospel. It's like the perversion of the truth that's so prevalent in our culture right now. The exact opposite is true. the more you will yield to the lordship of Jesus, the more freedom, the more joy, the more happiness, the more pleasure, the more liberty that will come to your life. Um, even the angels, God gave that privilege of it. It's an intriguing insight to me into the character of this omnipotent, omnisient God that we we worship. He we I have nothing he needs, but he's made a way for me to participate in his eternal kingdom. Yes, is my answer. Amen. Absolutely. You know, people say to me, and I don't want to go too far. I do. I live in middle Tennessee. The only thing thing that stays in the middle of the road long term is a possum. It's roadkill. I'm not looking for the middle of the road. I want to find the edge, build a ramp, and hit it full speed. Huh? So many of you send us messages, letters, emails, notes in a variety of formats saying, "Thank you for the ministry, for willing to speak the truth into culture in this rather tumultuous season." Well, I hear your feedback and it's very valuable. The question I'm so often asked is, I feel like we should do more. What can we do? How do we do something? Clearly, God is moving in the earth. He's raising up voices of truth. We're certainly not unique or alone in that, but there is something you could do that would help us. Join us as a monthly ministry partner. Our baseline for how we build our plans for next comes from those monthly partners. Your gift of $25 or more enables us to imagine a different future. So, if God has blessed you through the ministry, I would ask you to make that simple investment in what's next. And together, we will join God in helping to spread the message of a biblical worldview and its significance for our families, our communities, our nation, and for the body of Christ throughout the earth. join us in that partnership. We'll share some unique learning opportunities with you and together we'll move with what God is doing in the earth right now. So that brings us to today and you touched on this. The church needs to recognize that so much of their messaging is a byproduct of a hypermaterialistic secular worldview. We are the first people in really that species in the west to not believe in the spiritual dimension. Even the Aztecs believed in a spiritual dimension. The Incans, the Mayans, the Egyptians, the Indis River Valley. We are the first generation of secular atheists. Kind of post 1900s this idea really started to grow. And so much of the church without they realizing it or not has embraced this secularism within their messaging because they're afraid to talk about the spiritual aspect of it. They actually have a hyper techchnical materialistic gospel when you bring it down to it. It's very technical. If you do this, you will get that. If you take this, you will get that. Very cause and effect. when in reality the spiritual world is very humbling because there are forces around us that we don't quite always understand. There is an invisible dimension that can be very confusing to us. So how do we best understand understand this spiritual dimension and why is it the modern church is so afraid to talk about it? [Applause] Well, I I've spent my life in the church. I love the church. Um, so I have some opinions. You know, I think the church has moved so far away from the authority of scripture uh in my lifetime. My lifetime coincides with perhaps the most precipitous decline of Christian influence in the history of the church. So that's unsettling to me. And I, you know, I I think when we push scripture aside, what we've watched in in modern education amongst our elementary and high school children started in theological education a 100 years ago. You know, critical theory dominates most of the elite theological schools today and it takes all the authority out of scripture. We sit in judgment of scripture. It doesn't sit in judgment of us. And so if you want to get an elite education theologically and you go to these institutions so that you get the best paying jobs in the more traditional church settings, our our most influential and celebrated leaders have been trained that there is no authority in the scripture. So we become social we become systems for social causes. We become civic clubs that have a little ecclesiastical language. And that's not the church. The church is an expression of the power of God in the language of Corinthians through a bunch of broken people. We didn't we weren't very noble. It says we God recruited, you know, a bunch of cracked pots from the wrong side of the tracks so that anybody who saw the outcome would know it had to be the power of God. Now, what gives me great hope is that since 2020, God has begun a sifting and a shaking and a realigning and there's new voices coming forward. There's so much truth being spoken in our culture right now, but predominantly it's not coming from pulpits and it's coming from a younger generation of people with the courage to say there is good and evil, right and wrong. They're giving an expression to a biblical worldview. It very much looks like an awakening or at least the the embers of an awakening. And I I have grieved a bit that it didn't come from the places I would have preferred, but that's not mine to call. I just see it happening and I'm going to go get in line and help. [Music] And you know, a building in religious language does not make us the church. Honoring Jesus of Nazareth is Christ, Lord, and King does. And that's what you're watching for. That's where you want to engage. That's where you want to give your time and your money and your attention and your efforts. That's where you want your children to be because that's where there is life and power. That's what will bring another generation liberty and freedom for all. You know, to the degree that our founding documents and founders had ideas that extended liberty for a few generations, it's only a reflection of the degree to which they cooperated with principles that are embedded in scripture. And when the church stopped talking about that, when we no longer had the courage, it hasn't been very long. I I read a coming on the plane today, I read something to Kathy, my wife. It was a quote from Dr. King. He said, "The church is an assignment to be the culture of the the conscience of the culture." And when we lose that, we forfeit much of our role. The the moral authority for the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s was the word of God. It was the authority of scripture that thundered against the sin of our nation. That's very different than DEI. DEI was is not thundering with the authority of scripture. It's thundering with demonic manipulation of human beings that judges us by our appearance and not our character. [Music] We used to teach our children in school from the Bible. Congress ordered a printing of the Bible so that as the colonies were breaking away from England so that there would be enough copies of scripture in our schools for the training of our children. Now we're teaching them social emotional learning and that's every bit as demonic as DEI. We've taken away discipline and an idea of right and wrong. And we've turned our schools into a large therapy session. Now I'm meddling. You asked me a question about the church and I'm No, you're doing great. So why is it that the church and just more broad you can we can broaden it up more. The church is failing in its current duty. The church is failing and of course we must say dream city is an exception. Pastor Allan, your church is an exception. We work with the exceptions at TPUSA Faith, right, Lucas? We specialize in the exceptions. But if we are honest with ourselves, the rule, not the exception, is a church that has grown silent and has been trembling and sometimes traitorous. And I believe part of it, Pastor Allan, ties into your book and your thesis, which is if you ignore the spiritual dimension, I think it's one of many problems. I don't think it's the only problem, but I would put it top five. If you ignore the spiritual dimension and you don't talk about how there is a demonic realm, because think about it, if you talk about a demonic realm, it then very quickly you could talk about sin and hell and eternal judgment. Demons are scary. Woo! Not many pastors want to talk about demons because they think people will leave their church. Instead, they'll kind of they'll just say angels and you. That will be the title of the modern church, right? Angels and you and how you can get rich or something. Uh but demons are like woo really scary. So the the we know the church is failing for multiple reasons. By its fruit, you will know it. That is a biblical principle. And church attendance has been going down steadily the last 30 years. It's actually plateaued and gone up one point in the last year and a half. I think that's only a COVID recovery. I don't even think that's a revival. So, I think we have to be very humble in the way we look at that data. But the data is the data. But it's been a 30-year slide. Uh more and more young people are identifying as not religious or at very best as spiritual. And what has been the prevailing Christian, let's just say the prevailing church methodology? Number one, we must be more sensitive and we must water down scripture. And when we do those two things, we will then be able to bring more seekers into our church. And the less truth that we tell, the bigger we'll be able to expand. That's basically been the formula. Has it worked, Pastor Allan? Last question, then we'll get to some Q&A. Well, I want to uh disagree with you on one point. Uh, and it's a semantic thing. I don't believe the church is failing because Jesus is the head of the church and the church is triumphant. I think the institutional church that's fair. Yeah. The institutional church in the way we've known it. The mechanical. Yeah. I think that there's definitely I think there's a tremendous decrease in its influence. I think that's good. If they've rejected the authority of scripture and the uniqueness of Jesus, I want their influence to diminish. That's exactly right. It's ungodly. That's exact. And and you could make an argument they're not actually even the church. Yeah. That's not Yes. That's an easy argument. I think the order of march is really important and it's not complicated. Jesus, he he to enter the kingdom of God. He didn't say you needed to be sensitive. He said you needed to be born again. And it confused the man who'd come to see him. It's in John 3. He there was a confusing discussion. And he was a scholar. And he said, "I'm old. I I don't understand the logistics." And Jesus was a bit chagrined by that. He said, "How can you, a leader of my people, not understand that there has to be a birth of the spirit?" And only the power of God can do that. But if we're willing to acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as Christ, as the Messiah, and then you're willing to accept him as Lord of your life, there's something supernatural that happens to you. There's a spiritual birth that takes place in you. The Bible describes it as becoming a new creation. and and that message has lived in American evangelicalism pretty well. But we haven't taken much beyond that and talked about now the necessity of growing up in our faith of of running our race as if we want to win the prize. You know, I've been invited to the hospital hundreds of times to see new arrivals and there's grandparents and pictures and all this stuff, but nobody imagined the story's done. It's just the promise of a life to be led well. So your entry into the kingdom of God comes with that simple thing. It's not controlled by a church, a pastor, a priest, a denomination. You can do that by yourself. You can do it in the in the grocery store, in the produce section, or in the parking lot of the dream center or at the altar of a church. It's the beginning point for every life. And we have to go with that message. There will be good people in hell. There'll be kind people and generous people and pretty people. There'll be people who sit in churches. All of those things. It's our relationship with Jesus that determines our destiny and opens our lives to that new birth. And we have to care enough about our families and our friends and our neighbors and the people that we work with to share with them the good news. There's a God and you can know him and he will change your life. He doesn't need anything from you. And if you will take that simple step of faith, it opens an entirely new realm of existence to you. And the church has lost our passion for that. And we think we can fix our problems with an election or a dynamic leader or more seats in Congress. And I'm not against any of those things, but if those things are to happen, they will be because the church is awakened and we took our values back into the marketplace. That's well said. Let's start lining up for some Q&A. We'll get to as much as we can. Pastor Allan, I just want to thank you for your boldness. It is so refreshing to have someone that has a platform as big as yours. And I hope you understand Pastor Alan Jackson is heard by millions of people every single week. It's one of the largest ministries out there and really teaches the word verse by verse and chapter by chapter. So, thank you for that. Okay. Okay. Well, we want to get to some questions here. Uh, let's try to keep it around the genre we're talking about, but of course, we'll we'll take whatever we possibly can. Which side is ready for us? Which one? Right there. Yes, sir. Just to get it straight, I'm not an angel. So, just I've chosen to be one of God's warriors. And I was mad at God in Vietnam, but now I know why he sent me. I believe we're at war between Satan's marionets and God's warriors. And there is no middle ground. You can't be in the middle and be a for God because you're more for Satan than you are for God. And I believe in the Bible it might say God will spit you out if you try and stand in the middle. And I think the message should be that if you have chosen to be one of Satan's marionets, you need to cut the strings. Do you agree with me or do you think I'm sending a wrong message? Well, I think my message is if you've chosen to this point to be one of Satan's marionets, there's a better way to live your life. And I I I continue to extend that invitation. So being angry and resentful and bitter isn't our goal. Our goal is to extend an invitation. We have good news, you know, that freedom is available to any human being. And I think if the church would embrace that with a greater enthusiasm, we almost apologize for it now. You know, we apologize that we believe in Jesus or we apologize that we believe in right or wrong or good or evil. And I think the world is waiting for a st the church with the strength to tell the truth. I don't apologize for believing in God or believing in Jesus Christ. I I don't believe you do. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Who's next? this great group of patriots. I love that. Look at that. They're probably all homeschooled. Hi. Hi. We're the Trump club. And my question is, what is the difference between angels and arch angels? Charlie. Yeah. Right. Nope. Well, I I think the simplest answer to that is there's a structure and a hierarchy in God's kingdom. If we look at creation, it's very clear that we serve a God of great order and precision. And I don't believe his kingdom is random or and so there there is a structure to the angels and the authority that they have. So an archangel is an angel with more authority than another angel. And one in particular is the angel Michael who in the book of Jude, I think it's Jude 1:9, talks about being the angel of battle. That is not just folklore, but there is scriptural evidence to show that. So, thank you guys. God bless you. Thank you. Good question. I guess you could say that the an you know, archangels are like the five-star generals of angels. Like there's a little bit of a hierarchy there. So, yes, sir. Welcome, gentlemen. Welcome. Um, my question has got to do with DEI in the military. I'm I'm a maggot lifer, uh, retired Air Force and I never had that problem, that situation because I was putting I was putting a lot of different jobs that had a lot of, you know, responsibility. Um, so what do you guys think about uh, President Trump and Secretary Edith kind of getting rid of it? You want me to start with that? First of all, thank you for your service, sir. Uh, that's uh, we really uh very much against it. I'm I'm against uh any sort of DEI measurement in corporate life or in schools, but especially in the military. The military is a place where to be perfectly honest, the military does not exist to accommodate all people. The military does not exist to make people feel good. It's to be excellent and lethal and to protect the homeland against threats that want to wish us harm. And not only am I against DEI, I'm very much in favor of what Secretary Hegsth, who's doing a phenomenal job, by the way. He's just doing a great job of what Secretary Hegs uh issued yesterday where he said, "Look, combat is hard. It's difficult. People's lives are on the line. And if you want to serve in combat, if you're a man or a woman, you have to have the same physical fitness standards." One in particular is that in 2015 they said that women in combat you only have to be able to deadlift 210 lbs. A man has to be able to deadlift 320 lb. Now to put that in perspective, an average soldier that is a man with his pack and his ruck will weigh about 220 to 230 lb. That means that a female Marine or a female individual in the US Army, if all of a sudden a male Marine would have his leg blown off, that female would not be strong enough to be able to carry him on her back to be able to give him necessary medical attention that could save his life. That is not a military. That is a social experiment. And that ends and is ending right now thanks to President Trump. No place in our country. And let me just go a step further. You know what I think is awesome is that you served in a time of military where everyone knew that you earned it and that you were qualified. DEI unintentionally introduces racism and prejudice where it otherwise did not exist. Where then people wonder that if black Americans are in a certain role, are they there because they were the best or because there was some sort of accommodation? In fact, it's insulting to people as yourself if you would have to reapply in the military under those standards. And so, God bless you. Thank you for your service and I'm glad we're bringing merit back to the finest fighting force on the planet. No, I mean I think the church muddied that conversation, excuse me, because we we we wanted the approval of the culture. So we came up with some rather tortured explanations of scripture to try to make diversity and equity inclusion look like they were biblical principles, not in the way they were being pushed through our educational systems in the military. Thank you. And that's exactly right. And you could always go back to where does this idea originate. For example, natural rights, human equality, freedom of speech, all started by Christians and people that adhere to scripture. Diversity, equity, inclusion to a te were all the outgrowth of secular philosophers like Derek Bell and Kimberly Krenshaw and Herbert Marcusa and Michelle Fuko. None of them were believers. That is a great test before we go any further. When an idea is pushed to you on the culture, ask yourself, are the people who theorized this, who authored it, are they Christians and people who believed in the authority of scripture or are they secularists? That does not mean that secularists cannot have good ideas. However, it's a very good beginning and starting point of what is the origination. I would go a step further and say that a lot of the impulses of DEI is anti-scripture and against our faith. Yes, sir. What's your question? Thank you for that. out. What are your thoughts on Greek gods? Um, do you think they're fallen angels? I know there is only one true god, but how do you think as a kid in public school who was taught about all of this and many generations have been taught? That's a great question. That's a really good question. Thank you. What's your name? Javin. David, thank you. Thank you for that question. David. Oh, David. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. I misheard you. Well, I I think the Christians have been way too passive. When they told us to take, you know, prayer out of the schools or our faith out of the schools, we rather meekly said yes. When they said you could pray at school, but only if you pray at the flag pole outside, we said thank you. Anyway, that's another day. I'll come back for that one. But what we didn't acknowledge is in the schools, they're teaching worldviews and religions. I've walked through the public schools. There's all sorts of Egyptian gods and expressions of their faith that are a part of the educ. I'm okay with that. But they need to tell how Christianity has shaped this nation. I think the Greek and Roman mythology are an ancient expression of of um the way we have worshiped demons and false gods throughout human history. And they've been a part of the education. But you don't have to be afraid of it. If you know the truth, you don't have to be afraid of something that's false. A couple two two very quick additional thoughts. Uh number one is that the Bible does talk about repeatedly you have to be very careful using the word gods because we are a monotheistic faith but forces that could be interplaced with the word god like Molech for example uh that are pagan manifestations of demonic and spiritual forces. Lucas is writing a book on paganism right now. And if you want to really have a breakthrough, and I think everyone needs to really dive deep into this, the more you realize that we don't live in an atheistic country, but more in a pagan country, things start to make a lot more sense. And finally, understand that the early Christians were given what was conceived to be a very good offer by the Romans. The early Christians were humming. They were starting to win converts. And the Romans said, "Hey, look, we have this thing called the pantheon, okay? Where you could be one of many religions. We'll add you, okay? We'll have Hermes. We'll have Rah. We'll have the sun god. We'll have the dirt god. We'll have, you know, the air god. We'll have we'll put you amongst many. You'll be one amongst equals." And the early Christians, to their credit, said, "No, there's only one true God. We are not going to acknowledge all these fake pagan manifestations." And the courage of the early church to do that as they faced martyrdom, as they faced extreme exile is one of the great acts of courage that to this day led us to the truth of our faith. If they would have accepted that deal, a lot of the persecution would have stopped. A lot of the massacring of Christians in the early couple hundred years would have ceased. But they said, "No, we will go through the persecution, but we refuse to ever say that Jesus is on the same level as Zeus. That is heresy, and we will not put up with it." So, I hope that's helpful. So, thank you. Hi, pastor. Um, last summer there was some testimony in Congress about UAPs, what we used to call UFOs, um, and that they have bi our government has biologics. Just wondering your opinion, wisdom on that. I I don't I'm not familiar enough with what the government has. I think what I can say today is I'm convinced that for far too long our government has been deceitful, dishonest, lied to us, and manipulated us. You know, and one of the very uncomfortable things that has come forth in my life since CO is that I'm going to borrow Reagan's line. I have to trust but verify. You know, my father was a veterinarian. I grew up in the sciences. I trusted the CDC and the NIH and all of those people until about April of 2020. and my I'm a veterinarian's assistant informally and my training said this isn't science anymore. And so on that particular topic, I haven't seen enough data. I've listened to a lot of information, but I don't really have anything beyond that to to imagine that there's aspects of creation that we don't know about makes complete sense to me. You know, every time we get a telescope and we can see further into the universe, our last theory has to be changed because we were incorrect. or every time we learn more about this physical world we're in, we're adapting um what we said was absolute fact. So I I'm I'm completely comfortable saying there are aspects of creation that we just don't know. You know, I had a a mentor in my life. He said that miracles were not Jesus using some extra power. He was just taking advantage of aspects of creation that we don't understand. And so the discussion doesn't bother me, but I don't trust the source. Thank you. Next [Applause] question. Oh my goodness. I just want to say this is my first time ever doing this, but I just want to tell you that I love you all and I definitely appreciate your ministry, Mr. Charlie Kirk. To God be the glory. and pastor. Um, so I wanted to ask about demons because I find myself, you know, feeling to pray for people and I have had a conversation or people sometimes have tried to almost make somebody feel like they should be afraid to pray if somebody is say demonpossessed or dealing with some kind of demonic spirit. And I love what you said about the authority because we have authority in Christ Jesus. So why is it or what would you say if someone maybe knew to say wanted to say cast a devil out of someone or cast a demon out of someone who is demonized like what could they you know if they feel led to do that you know do you think people should discourage people from that if they feel led to do that? And also for someone who might be new to that, maybe they're not so used to that. How do you think they should approach that when they see, you know, someone who's like casting out devils or if they feel led to cast out demons and devils out of people? It's a good question. I think the simplest way to imagine it is is it begins with repentance. If a person wants to be free, that's a very simple path. You acknowledge repentance means you change your thought and you change your behavior. So there's a simple Lord, I'm sorry. I've been thinking the wrong way about something and behaving the wrong way. And if there's some unclean spirit that's involved with that, if you will repent of the sin and renounce your involvement with that, if you were involved with the occult or whatever it may have been, uh you can be free. It's a truth encounter. It's not a power encounter. And so it doesn't have to be frightening. It makes it Hollywood can sell more tickets if it's dramatic. But I don't think it has to be dramatic at all. I simply think you need to acknowledge there's a there's that you want a different outcome and where the power and the authority is for that freedom and then you can help people walk through that. There's a couple of simple books. Uh Neil Anderson's written on this really well. uh the bondage breaker or freedom in Christ and he'll give you 10 steps to freedom that anybody could pick up and walk through with someone else and it it's a very straightforward biblically sound way to process it and I I will just add far being from an expert that possess demon possession is real. Some people who say they are demonp possessed are probably not. Uh, I am not a Catholic, but I will say the Catholic Church to their credit has the most robust thorough documentation of possession. And if you guys ever want to go into that, it's that'll make you believe in the spiritual dimension very quickly of what the Catholic Church has documented through their process of exorcism and what they have found and what Protestants that have gone into this have found. You don't just get possessed by walking down the side of the street. It does not just zap. You must actively seek it. And it almost always comes in one of three ways. The occult, tarot cards, or playing some sort of a witchcraft game. So otherwise, stay out of Sedona, everybody. Right. That's basically do not go there at all. And if you keep on driving and do not go to any of that new age stuff. The point being the most famous exorcisms of the 20th century, of course, the most famous was Emily Rose. Don't watch the movie. I mean that. Seriously. It's awful. And you're just inviting dark stuff. But reading the transcripts of both Catholic priests and Protestants who kind of dealt with that, uh, it is in eerily similar to what the scriptures tell us of the contortion of bodies, of other voices going through that individual that are not their own, and also the quoting of scripture back at the uh, exorcist. All that to say, I'm not a expert in that. But it it did do one thing. The more I researched it, it made me believe more and more in this invisible dimension that atheists must not just grapple with the existence of God, they also must grapple with the existence of evil and the demonic as well. It's a very important point that if you have an atheist in your life that not only they must deal with this idea of the eternal that created everything but also I think in a very backwards way possession can also make some people second guess that maybe there is an invisible dimension. Thank and by the way if you don't also believe me talk to missionaries that have gone to Haiti and they will rock your world about the idea of possession. Why is that? Half of Haitian culture still practices witchcraft actively witchcraft and the occult is the most active per capita in the country of Haiti. So, thank you. Hey man, how are you? You keep growing up. Hi. Um, I was just wondering, you touched on before creation. I was just wondering if you could tell me more about that, like what you your opinion is on what happened before creation. That's a good question. I don't really think we have the information. You know, when Genesis opens, um, it it says that there was chaos. Really, there's two Hebrew words used there that are used a hand. Yeah. That are used a handful of times in the Old Testament, and they almost always describe something chaotic where there's been some destruction. So, I don't think Genesis begins with the original creation because in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And then it says, "And the earth was void and without shape, and the spirit of God is hovering over the face of the deep." And then God begins to bring order out of that. So there there's some things that aren't there. What the Bible is is the story of an almighty God and his creation of an environment for human beings to live in and how we can have a relationship with him. It's not the complete story. We don't know where God came from. It's not there. And so what we have the opportunity to do is is to take the design manual and accept that truth and get to know this al almighty God or we can establish ourselves as in charge and we can figure it out. So I'm not trying to avoid it. I just don't think the information is there and my speculation isn't overly helpful. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. This will be the last question and then Pastor Allan, I'm going to have you lead us in um kind of a informal alter call if that's okay. Yeah, great final question. Thank you. So, the demonic always seems to know where to attack and attempt, you know, and tempt me uh and probably all of us. So, do are our thoughts being read? Are they keying off behavior or the words we speak? How does this always seem to know? So I think that the the question is centering around um the intelligence of unclean spiritual forces and I I I don't personally I don't think it's prudent to make fun of the devil. He's been pretty effective against most of my heroes. You know Moses and David and Abraham. I mean you can take the list. So I don't mock him or make fun of him. You know the story is told of Martin Luther. I don't know that it's true that he woke up in the middle of the night and he saw the devil standing at the foot of his bed and he said, "Oh, it's just you." And he rolled back over and went to sleep. I like the approach. Um, my experience is the devil always overplays his hand. He goes too far. I think we've seen that culturally. He goes to the point that it's so absurd that marginally aware people go, "Wait a minute, that's just that's too far." And I I think as far as that individual nature, you know, I I think we all have vulnerabilities. We're not all tempted on every point. So my favorite sins to preach against are the ones that aren't temptations for me. I mean, I can drop the hammer on poaching elephants cuz I haven't been tempted to do that in a long time. You know, um eating too much chocolate. I try to stay away from gluttony because that's a little more personal. But um the reality is we all know we have some points of vulnerability. And I think that having with that self-awareness then gives you a a game plan. I don't put myself in places where those points of vulnerability are exposed. I won't give my discretionary time. I don't have a great deal of discretionary time, but I will not give it to people that don't encourage me in godliness because the the struggle's too real. the challenge is too great. You know, I find my my friends that have excellence in some area, they spend their free time with people that help them be better at what they're trying to learn. And if you want to be more godly, spend your discretionary time with people that will encourage you in the Lord, not discourage you. So, I I don't spend a lot of time worried about the enemy. I try to spend my time getting closer to the Lord and living in the strength and the truth that he's given me. And I don't find I don't spend a lot of time worrying about viruses and bacteria. I just try to get healthy. Thank you. Pastor Allan, would would you lead us in kind of a conclusion here and a call to the Lord? I would I give you the same invitation that my mom asked for that to know the truth. And that's not about being Baptist or Catholic or Jewish. It it's that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And wherever you come into your journey tonight, you may be a veteran of decades in the church. I came to this building decades ago and the Lord met me in this place. And I'm sure he's still meeting people here. And tonight would be a good night simply to say to the Lord, I I want to take another step with you. I don't want to come presumptuously then and imagine that I know it all. And if you stood on the outside as a skeptic, I would invite you simply to say, "Jesus, be Lord of my life. It doesn't take a genius to be a skeptic. It's not hard to find the the frailty in Christians, folks. Our weaknesses are on display most days, but sitting in the seat of the skeptic is a lonely place to stay. It's more fun to be engaged with what God is doing. And so, I would invite you to whatever brought you here to to say to the Lord, I want to give you a greater place in my heart and life. I want to give you a greater place in my priorities. I'm going to say that little prayer. And to the degree that that makes sense for you, you just say, "Yes, Lord." I want to stand for that if you will. I'm pretty sure if the Lord came in the room, we'd stand before we put our face in the carpet. I think that would happen really quickly. But I think we would start by standing. He deserves our respect and our reverence. God's not like us. He can make me out of a dust ball and and not exert any effort. There's nothing hidden from him. He knows the ending at the beginning. The greatest problems and challenges we have today do not cause God any anxiety. The the church is way too anxious. If we would be more aware and closer to the Lord and stand more in his authority and power, we would be a much greater help to this nation than any elected official. And I'm grateful for all those people that are making sacrifices to provide leadership to our nation. But I believe that God is awakening a generation of people who will tell his truth. So, what if we said tonight, I want to be one of those people? For some, it's a first step. For some, it's another step. For some, it's a rep prioritization of your life and your time. Life is no brief candle to me. Fact, it seems kind of long, but there's no doovers. And I want every season of my life to reflect my very best effort for the kingdom of God. Let's pray. Father, I thank you for these men and women. They've made a sacrifice to be here tonight. And you've said that you're the rewarder of those who diligently seek you. And so I lift them before you. For those who are standing apart from you, I pray that they will simply say, "Jesus, be Lord of my life." Lord, give them the courage to take that step to to move beyond indifference. There are many of us who have known you and walked with you, but we've been distracted by many things. And we come tonight to say we're sorry. We give you first place. Forgive us for our our ambivalence. Forgive us for imagining that something beyond you would bring contentment and joy and peace to us. Jesus, be Lord of our life. May your truth grow in our hearts. May your name be exalted and your kingdom extended in our generation. It will cause the nations of the world to stand in wonder. We thank you for it in Jesus name. Amen. If you prayed that little prayer with me, you've never prayed it before. I'll be around here. I want to see you before you go. Okay. God bless you guys. Give it up for Pastor Allan one more time. Hey, thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment so more people can hear about this topic, too. If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Alan Jackson Ministries YouTube channel and follow the Culture and Christianity podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith and change our culture. I'll see you next time.