Fraser Myers Examines the Charlie Kirk Assassination and the Dark Politics of Violence

[00:01] I think we're learning more about the alleged assassin certainly, but I think we're also learning more about the

[00:06] incredibly febal and dark political climate that seems to surround the shoot. Just it's such a difficult coalition to

[00:12] hold together and it requires death, tactical talent, which I don't think Jeremy Corbyn or Zara Sultana have in

[00:19] spades. The Romanians in particular continue to talk of Europe as if it's like a haven from populism. It's like I do know

[00:25] what's going on. It just shows that if there are any low information voters in that discussion, it's them.

[00:30] Hello and welcome to the Spike podcast. I'm Fraser Myers. Delighted as ever to be joined by Spike's editor, Tom Slater.

[00:36] Hello. And thrilled for his first time on the Spike Pot to have GB News's Tom Harwood. Welcome.

[00:41] Uh, it's a delight to make it all the more confusing for having two Toms here. Um, I I think we're all going to be sort

[00:47] of double speaking and not speaking at all. It's going to be tough to chair, but I'm going to I'm going to hold your arm. Should we do surnames or something like

[00:54] we're back at school? Yeah, say to Harwood sounds like a law firm, but it really does.

[00:59] Right. So, before we get into the topics, everyone at home needs to know that this podcast is going to be coming

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[01:18] you can get an amazing discount. You can get 20% off with the code spiked. And you can get that discount on any ticket.

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[01:36] 18th and 19th of October. Huge week this week. So lots to talk about. We'll be discussing the ongoing fallout from the

[01:42] Charlie Kirk killing, the Trump State visit to the UK, and the hilarious

[01:48] collapse of your party. [Music]

[01:55] We've been learning a lot more about the Charlie Kirk uh suspect uh Tyler

[02:00] Robinson. We've been learning all about his political beliefs, some of the things that have been encased on his

[02:06] bullets, some of the confessions and text messages and things like that. Tom Slater, do you want to start off and

[02:12] tell us a bit about what um what we now know? No, absolutely. So, he's now officially been charged with aggravated murder. It

[02:19] seems like they're going to be seeking the death penalty. And we now seem to know a lot more about what the alleged

[02:24] motive would be. And there was obviously some of these early indications kind of reports as you say, Fraser, of the shell

[02:30] casings be being engraved with protrans or prompt messages. And that seems to be what has

[02:37] been borne out in the evidence which has been gathered. in particular a series of messages between himself and um an

[02:45] individual he's living with and apparently dating a man who was in the process of transitioning talking

[02:51] Robinson very explicitly about the fact that he'd in his words had enough of Kirk's hate um mentioning the fact that

[02:59] um he had again kind of scrolled these essentially kind of very online kind of protrans memes um which I won't mention

[03:07] because people I'm sure they'll go over most people's heads but clearly they're being a sort sort of nent political

[03:12] agenda there and also a kind of insight into his sort of psyche this it was kind of very much akin to what you see in a

[03:19] lot of political assassinations politically motivated mass shootings that we've seen in America recently

[03:24] which is regardless of the political persuasion there's this kind of nihilism

[03:29] very online almost kind of giggling quality to it which makes it even more

[03:36] unsettling. So it it certainly seems at least at this point it's giving the light a lot of the deflections that were happening from many people on the

[03:41] American left that we don't know what this could possibly have been about and maybe it was a it was a magazor who got

[03:46] carried away. I mean, all the kind of slightly absurd things that were said in the in the wake of that horrendous assassination and it's um not only has

[03:54] allowed us to learn a lot more about what seems to have taken place here, but I think it's also turned into a much

[04:00] bigger discussion about political violence and the question about whether or not particularly the American left

[04:07] are creepily enamored with it because if it was just this one individual, that would be one thing. But we've all seen

[04:13] polls in recent days. There's one that the economist did with Yugov, which is essentially found, and this was done in the wake of the shooting or certainly

[04:19] around the time that American liberals are essentially more than twice as

[04:24] likely to approve of political violence in certain situations. I believe it's 20% for liberals, about 7% for

[04:31] conservatives and moderates. And that particular amongst the younger generation is very concentrated. So under 40, it's about one in three

[04:37] liberals who would support it in some circumstances. And I think it's important to stress, and we did touch on this on the podcast last week, but this

[04:44] particular form of political violence is almost the most chilling because this is not an individual who held elected office, who held power, who was an

[04:51] oligarch, who had any kind of power over anyone. Not to say that that justifies gives a a cart blanch to

[04:57] political violence. But you see the point I'm making, it was purely because it seems this individual disagreed with

[05:04] what he said. This is a kind of this is a new form of political violence or at least a particularly chilling form of

[05:10] political violence we seem to be dealing with here which is essentially murderous intolerance that phrase had had enough

[05:16] of his hate. He'd had enough of his opinions effectively. So I think we're learning more about the alleged assassin

[05:22] certainly but I think we're also learning more about the incredibly febal and dark political climate that seems to

[05:28] surround this shooting. And do you see this Tom as as a bit of an extension of that idea that you know words wound and

[05:35] you know words are violence and we need to stand up to you know or silence is violence even in the face of oppressive

[05:40] ideas right and that internally justifies in this warped sort of mindset the idea

[05:46] that you have to fight back against your perceived violence with more violence. I

[05:51] mean, it's the most pernicious ideology to say that someone's view, what someone

[05:57] thinks, not what they do, what they think can actively hurt you. I mean, how

[06:03] in I mean, you know, if you are fed up of Charlie Kirk's opinions, don't go to

[06:08] the area where Charlie Kirk is speaking. Don't go and attend his debate or his

[06:13] rally. If you're really that upset with what he has to say, don't listen to it. I mean, everyone has that option. Now,

[06:20] there are things that Charlie Kirk said that I agree with. There are things that Charlie Kirk say that I I disagreed with. But my goodness me, one of the

[06:25] things that I found looking back over uh his debates and and sort of his his back

[06:30] and forth on college campuses, all the rest of it over the over the past years is how courteous he is, how he's when

[06:36] when there's a a person because he wanted to debate liberals in good faith, find common ground, bring people

[06:41] forwards. when someone says, you know, I'm a liberal or or you know, I have different pronouns or whatever, he'd always tell the crowds, you know, look,

[06:48] we outnumber them. We outnumber them. Let this person have their say. And and

[06:54] I just find it extraordinary that someone would have got to the level where that that sort of discourse, I

[07:02] mean, having people exchanging ideas over microphones, I mean, that is violence. In what world? And what have

[07:08] you made of the the sort of broader response to it or the I I would say the bad kind of response because there has

[07:14] been of course a lot of magnanimous response to it on all sides of the political spectrum but there has been this kind of ranging from gleeful

[07:20] celebration to outright misinformation. I think number one I'm very pleased that seemingly no one in any position of

[07:27] authority has celebrated this. The highest person in any position of authority is the incoming president of

[07:33] the Oxford Union. I mean, if that's as high as it gets, there's been no elected American politicians. There's been no

[07:39] state governors. There's been I mean, if we're looking at the people who really are, it's random people on Tik Tok. it's

[07:45] lower level uh people sort of celebrating which I think conversely

[07:51] actually shows some signs of health that like people in positions of authority know that the right thing to do is to I

[07:58] mean the the statements put out by Bernie Sanders for instance was actually very very moving and exactly the right

[08:04] tone for someone that had nothing to say that was agreeable with Charlie Kirk but

[08:10] um the statement that he put out I thought was very very moving indeed. Um, I think the more pernicious thing is the

[08:17] posttruth element. Strangely in the left in America, they think they're immune to this.

[08:22] They think they are completely immune to postruth politics. The idea that a meme

[08:28] or a lie can sort of spread within their ranks. But but very clearly this lie,

[08:33] this outright lie based on no evidence whatsoever other than hopes and feelings

[08:40] uh that oh the the shooter couldn't possibly be leftwing because he was violent.

[08:46] Yeah. And therefore it must have been a right-wing thing because the rightwing are the violent ones. They're the ones with the guns and the hate and therefore

[08:52] the shooter must have been rightwing. This went all the way up to Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah. I mean that that's why I'm more

[08:57] concerned about the post-truth meme. uh that this was a groer as they're known,

[09:02] sort of an alt-right assassin or or a MAGA Trumpist.

[09:08] The idea that it was one of these people was a meme that permeated people of

[09:14] influence and authority in a way that uh celebration didn't.

[09:21] I think that's fair to say. On the question of where has this come from? I think the fact that Charlie Kirk was

[09:28] someone who made his name in the campus culture awards is very instructive on this particular point. So he sets up

[09:33] Turning Point USA's organization I think around 2012. That kind of period over the course of the 2010s in which you

[09:40] started to see what we now call wokeness or cancel culture, what we might previously call political correctness or

[09:45] no platforming or what have you really starting to explode on American university campuses. And what was clear

[09:51] even around 2015 2016 was that it was this was beginning to turn violent. It

[09:56] was around that time that Milo Yiannaplo if anyone remembers him was speaking at Berkeley in California and there were

[10:02] riots in which people showed up to brawl with you know supporters of his and so on. I think it was around the same time

[10:07] that Middbury College where um Charles Murray was invited to speak by a professor um this was um shut down. It

[10:15] was protested against the professor in question was assaulted out to go to the hospital. So there was already these kind of indications that this was

[10:21] curdling into something quite extreme and sort of violent. And this is on this is the logical next step and it does go

[10:27] back to that point you've both discussed very well which is if you accept the idea that speech is violence that

[10:33] invites one of two responses either censorship as we've seen endlessly over this side of the pond or violence. You

[10:40] respond in either you try to clamp down on it in the same way that you would behavior or you try to respond in kind.

[10:47] you take matters in your into your own hands and so there is a grim almost

[10:52] predictability to what has taken place. Obviously the the horror of the spectacle has shocked many people and

[10:58] rightly so. But surely this is only the most extreme extent of a culture which

[11:04] was bubbling on university campuses has now certainly escaped that in terms of a lot of the excuse making which has been

[11:09] taking place but it was always heading in this direction. isolate. One other thing to note here is it's really

[11:15] tempting to try and fit people into neat ideological group. The shooter obviously

[11:22] leftwing. He wrote on one of the bullets, "Hey, fascist catch." He said he was fed up of Charlie Kirk's hate.

[11:29] That's that's why he wanted to kill Charlie Kirk. But at the same time, he wasn't steeped in Marxist ideology. He wasn't a member

[11:36] of a Leninist group. I mean this was a guy who was very online a gamer clearly

[11:42] became leftwing as he grew up but but wasn't sort of steeped in political ideology more more in a culture of it if

[11:50] anything said um if you see this you are gay lau

[11:56] you know that's the level of trolling and lack of seriousness it's less seizing the means of production and more the production of

[12:03] memes. Yeah, absolutely. One thing that has also been a big talking point this week is the response from some of the administration. Um Pam

[12:09] Bondi, the attorney general, um made a lot of waves when she said in the

[12:14] interview that in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination that the government was going to come down very hard on hate

[12:21] speech um which was something which actually in a quite heartening fashion caused a lot of Russians even amongst

[12:26] very prominent conservatives and and right-wingers. Um she seems to make the mistake incidentally that Tim Waltz, the

[12:33] uh you know, former Democratic vice presidential hopeful made in that debate with JD Vance where he says, you know, the first amendment doesn't protect hate

[12:39] speech. It absolutely does. I mean, there was a case as recent as 2017 in which it upheld that that was the case.

[12:45] She's now rode back on that, but I think it's it was a telling moment as far as there has been something of an appetite

[12:51] on sections of the American right for some form of retribution or even just

[12:57] sort of low-level cancel culture. Another comment she made was that um employers even though they're not legally compelled should be obliged to

[13:04] punish people in certain situations. There's been this kind of one particular case which has generated a lot of discussion of it seems like a Home Depot

[13:10] employee who refused to print pro Charlie Kirk posters or whatever. And this coming from a conservative movement

[13:16] in the US which has fought tooth and nail for the right of say Christian cake shops not to you know produce a wedding

[13:22] cake for a for a gay wedding and so on. So it's um it's that's clearly going to

[13:28] be a fight on the American right is are they going to respond to this very much in the spirit that Charlie Kirk seemed

[13:33] to you know represent there's there's a tweet of his from not too long ago saying that of course hate speech is free speech

[13:38] or whether or not there is going to be this appetite which you see um in sections of not just the American right

[13:45] but the right more broadly these days for sort of fighting fire with fire for revenge and I think that's going to

[13:51] really be where a lot of the discussion is certainly where speech rights are concerned as we go forward. This episode of the Spike podcast is

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[15:34] Let's talk about the Trump State visit to the UK. We're currently on the second full day of the visit. I mean, I'd say

[15:41] it's probably going well as far as the ceremony is concerned, but there are some quite big issues that uh the US and

[15:47] the UK disagree on and everything from free speech to Gaza to uh fossil fuels

[15:52] and energy. Tom, what have you made of it? It's been interesting, hasn't it? I was down in Windsor uh on the first day of

[15:59] the visit. Um utterly coordinated. Yeah. So choreographed. Nothing could go

[16:05] wrong. Nothing could go out of place. the people had been rehearsing the the sort of uh big armed forces display

[16:12] there, the the state banquet, all of it, you know, written beforehand, pitch perfect, nothing could go wrong. And

[16:19] again, um on the second day in the morning, uh in Checkers, choreographed,

[16:25] right? You had um going around seeing the Churchill archives at Checkers, um having a a business, um sort of lunch,

[16:33] uh signing a deal that obviously been pre-agreed. nothing could possibly go wrong. All coordinated until until you

[16:41] get to the press conference, the moment we were waiting for, right? And that and that is the point where there can't be control because

[16:47] you've got the American press pack, you've got the British press pack, and you've got an American president who

[16:52] loves taking questions. It's no one two one two done as you sometimes see as you

[16:58] saw with the with Emanuel Mron for instance. No, no, no. Trump took question after question after question.

[17:04] He clearly loves it. That's that's definitely his format and it was interesting because generally speaking at least if you look at a lot of the I

[17:11] don't want to say sympathetic media because there many of them have a you know cast iron responsibility towards impartiality supposedly but there was a

[17:17] kind of sense that Stalma got out of it intact. Um but at the same time there were clear points of disagreement. I

[17:24] mean the we were talking about this just before we started recording Tom, but the point in which you know Star condemns Hamas and gets a clap on the back from

[17:30] Trump for doing so as if like well done you know was kind of interesting and indicated the gap between them on the

[17:36] question of the recognition of a Palestinian state or what have you. His call for you know drill baby drill to

[17:41] exploit the resources in um Trump's beloved Scotland was very telling. The question of free speech bubbled up. The

[17:48] Mandlesson thing. Obviously, Trump threw Stalm at a bone by kind of pretending not to know who Peter Mandlesson was,

[17:54] even though they were pictured together in the Oval Office not even a couple of months ago, at which Trump, you know, falsomely praised Mandlesson's accent.

[18:01] No, he thought he was very handsome as well. You know, there were elements in which obviously he kind of got out of it in

[18:07] one piece, but at the same time, it's a reminder of how shaky this relationship

[18:12] is to say the least. And you know, maybe it is just Kia Starman's sheer powers of

[18:17] um I don't know, ass kissing or something that's worse or you know, it's not charisma is the sheer the sheer

[18:23] beauty of his voice. But I do think there is something deeper that is Donald Trump is genuinely a pro

[18:28] British president. I mean, he sees himself as ethnically British. He talked

[18:34] about that in his banquet speech uh on the first night. He he kept saying and actually in a way that I think no

[18:40] American president really has done before, at least not that I'm aware of, praising the British Empire for

[18:46] establishing sort of the structures of rights, of individual liberty, of what we all enjoy, frankly, what all of the

[18:53] wealthy countries in the world today enjoy. Yeah. and and and he had this sort of refrain about everywhere that

[19:00] once flew a British flag, you know, the institutions that were built up underneath that flag, not least in a

[19:07] little place called the United States of America, are those foundational rights

[19:12] and liberties that we enjoy today. And the fact that a fifth of the world speaks this language, thinks in this

[19:19] language, dreams in this language, prays in this language. He clearly was trying

[19:24] to get out some sort some sort of essence about the United Kingdom as a as a sort of mother nation for the

[19:30] English-speaking peoples around the world. I thought that was quite a powerful bond. I mean, he doesn't speak

[19:36] like that about the America's long and historic ties with France, for instance, of which there are many. But it's not

[19:41] that sense of romance that is so deep and and meaningful. And I think that

[19:47] probably goes some way to explain as well why many Americans are so horrified by the free speech situation in Britain,

[19:53] which is equally bad, let's face it, on on the continent. Um, we should talk a little bit about the anti-Trump

[19:59] protests. I think um fair to say a little bit smaller than last time, a little bit

[20:05] wetter. Uh Tom Slater, what have you made of it? Now, I thought it was interesting that um this call to arms

[20:13] was put out by the stop Trump coalition who kind of, you know, dusted off the plaqueard from last time he had the

[20:18] state visit. Um the language is is, you know, it's still pretty apocalyptic. I think it's fair to say. I mean, they're

[20:24] essentially accusing him. There was this video fronted by Zoe Gardner, everyone's favorite immigration researcher the

[20:29] other week um talking about that he's basically fanning the flames of fascism on either sides of the pond um in order

[20:37] to you could see what a fever dream that was. But in in this little video they had to demonstrate how fascistic Britain

[20:42] was becoming by a series of fake news reports in which there was like this kind of British paramilitary force that

[20:48] was disappearing migrants. So like in order to illustrate what they were saying, they had to fabricate news reports which I think tells you

[20:53] something about what kind of parallel universe these people tend to and of course the reality in this country is that we've spent the last

[20:59] four days trying to deport at least one individual. I think I think we've managed one but it took four days and

[21:06] about six failures. It just it remind I mean it was like this when you had the last state visit

[21:11] the point when um David Lamb was leading the protests. um he's now wouldn't dare go near that platform. But it's um this

[21:18] has the the texture of a temper tantrum to be perfectly frank. First of all, it's as if this will achieve anything. He's not going to step down because a

[21:24] few thousand corona show up. But it's also the um sense in which there is this this is I think the reason they have to

[21:30] reach for the script of anti-fascism and revolt and whatever is because it allows

[21:35] them to pretend that they're not just raging against a democratically elected president that they're not just raging against the people that this is

[21:41] obviously part and parcel of a kind of transatlantic culture war against populism and the kinds of voters they think are voting for these particular

[21:48] parties. There's a petulence to it. In that video that they put out there was one particular line which is along the lines of you know in 2017 we protested

[21:55] against him and we thought if we shouted loud enough he would go away. Yeah. And it was this kind it was like this kind

[22:00] of veruk assault masquerading as Rose Luxembourg. You know that kind of engagement. It also speaks to the idea that actually

[22:07] we are so anglocentric and I mean that not just as as this country but we care

[22:12] so much more about what goes on in America than countries on our doorstep. I mean we we don't think of ourselves as

[22:18] European. Georgia Maloney has about the same immigration policy as Donald Trump. Yeah. When Georgia Maloney comes to

[22:23] London, there any protests at all? I mean, no, there really aren't. I mean,

[22:28] when when when when she was elected and her new party in Italy, did anyone sort of do because she because she had pretty

[22:33] strong policies to stop the boats across the uh across the Mediterranean, but did you get videos being made on British

[22:40] social media? Did anyone follow the No, I think people feel so much more attached to the Anglosphere in general

[22:46] than any European country. And yet these are the same people who will walk out with a beret and and say that we should

[22:52] rejoin a political union with countries that they clearly don't give a fig about. Yeah. I remember, you know,

[22:58] realizing that whenever you'd talk to people on the sort of stop Brexit marches and you'd ask them about what's going on in Europe. I mean there there

[23:04] was a time when there was a big remain march and it was exactly the same time as the one of the big gi marches and

[23:10] they they've never heard of the yellow vest at all. So you know they have no idea what's going on. They'll know a lot more about America.

[23:15] They'll watch the American debates. I think I'm probably the only person in the country who watched the Spitz and Cardinal debate for the European

[23:22] Commission president. Well, um I bit of a waste of time since it doesn't actually decide. That is so true. So true.

[23:28] The Romanians in particular continue to talk of Europe as if it's like a haven from populism. It's like do you know

[23:33] what's going on in Europe at the moment? You could be in a situation where you've got maybe not a president the pen because he's been legally barred from

[23:40] doing so. But certainly the front you know the old front nasial doing very well. you look at what's going on in Germany who's in power in Italy. You

[23:47] think the it just shows that if there are any low information voters in that discussion is them 100%.

[23:52] And I would say every single person that I spoke to uh yesterday at the Trump rally without fail said that Trump was a

[23:59] fascist. I don't think there was without qualification. Yeah. Without any that was so that was quite

[24:05] eye opening. Do you think one of the reasons why it was a bit smaller is that the Labour Party almost hasn't given

[24:11] permission for it? Last time round you had people like David Lambie, now the deputy prime minister, going out and

[24:16] about saying those same things. He said we would chain himself to Downing Street, which he didn't do, so he needs

[24:22] to be called out on that. Amazing. It's like all those people saying they'll move to Canada and they'll never do. Clearly, what you've had is a party that

[24:28] was very happy to bang the anti-Trump drum when it was politically convenient for them and and and clearly they can

[24:33] make political capital out of that. they find themselves in power and they realize actually that is a terrible geopolitical thing to do. I mean you've

[24:40] got a a president who is predisposed towards this country who is waging economic war against lots of parts of

[24:46] the world. Do do you really want to go and poke the bear? I mean is that really your strategy? And so I think really a

[24:53] lot of people have suddenly thought oh oh maybe the first state visit wasn't a bad idea after all. Maybe people have

[25:00] maybe I'm being too optimistic here. people rethought their own actions six or seven years ago. I think I think maybe it's just yeah

[25:06] they're in the government so they sort of they're forced to grow up whether they'd like to or or not. But I mean the

[25:11] closest thing I think we've seen this time was there was an SMP uh MSP who who tweeted that said that no one should go

[25:18] to this state banquet you know if you go to the if you go to Trump's banquet you're endorsing genocide. Quickly

[25:24] deleted the tweet when he realized that the S&P leader was there. Amazing. Carol's a governor. So, should we talk

[25:31] about your party? My party? Your party? I I founded a No, it's it's all of our

[25:37] party because it's going to be a very democratic and open party. Probably a bit too Yeah, probably a bit

[25:42] too open because we don't know who who's in charge. Um Tom, do you want to explain? I mean, this is the most extraordinary

[25:50] spell this for us. There's lots. So, um clearly lots of different people have access to this powerful email list.

[25:55] I mean, it's hundreds of thousands of people signed up to this exciting new utopian project of a new party that's

[26:01] going to be the standard bearer for the left, founded by Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana. This sort of double-headed

[26:08] party. Oh, and by the way, there are four Gaza independents who are MPs associated with this party, too. When

[26:13] Zara Sultana is talking about the party, it's very much her and Jeremy. When Jeremy's talking about the party, it's very much him, Bbal. um shock

[26:23] the rest of them. All the boys it's the boys club and and and strangely a parallel website was set

[26:29] up called your party membership. An email was sent out saying if you want to join £55 go to your party membership.uk

[26:36] at which point then Jeremy Corbyn puts out a tweet saying someone has wrestled control of the email list. This was not

[26:44] an authorized email. uh do not give your m a lot of people gave this account £55.

[26:50] Zara Sultana then puts out a a message saying um

[26:56] something along the lines of this is a boys club sexist boys club. They haven't allowed

[27:02] any women on the board. Jeremy and I agreed to have a 50/50 male female

[27:07] board. I have been frozen out of discussions. Um I am calling on Jeremy

[27:13] to have a meeting with me. I mean, it looks like they haven't met and and Jeremy meets with the Gaza independents

[27:18] the whole time and and with a mass when that's ever when they're available. But isn't this extraordinary? We've seen in public Jer

[27:26] Sarana sort of talking about, you know, the importance of LGBT rights and women's liberation, and she finds

[27:32] herself in a party that is majority made up, at least in parliament, of socially conservative

[27:38] um Islamic MPs who are elected on a sort of politically Islamic ticket. and and

[27:45] she is she is surprised that these people who are elected in some of the most socially conservative

[27:52] places in the country I mean are places that these guys independents did well in are places that had the anti-LGBT

[27:57] education protests protesting the idea that children could be taught that some families have two moms and some families

[28:04] have two dads. I I mean these are the areas that are voting for these Gaza

[28:09] independents. only thing that links the Gaza independence to the sort of libertarian left, if we can call that

[28:15] Zarus Sultan's politics, is the issue of Gaza. And they're starting to find sooner than I think anyone had predicted

[28:21] the fact that actually this Gaza coalition, the the the gaze for Gaza or whatever it is. I mean, like it's it's

[28:28] it's a one-way street. There is no love the other direction. Absolutely. And it's extraordinary

[28:34] because this is not even the first sort of public spat had with your party. Even when it launched, Jeremy Corbyn said he

[28:41] wasn't aware that the party had been launched um or tried to sort of steal a

[28:46] march on it. So this these um tensions have been there from the beginning it looks like. Yeah. But actually from the

[28:52] very beginning it's just like a complete horror show. They might manage to get the show back on the road, but at the same time it's a first of all it's a

[28:59] reminder of just how lacking the two individuals at the head of it really are. I mean the fact that Jeremy Corbyn

[29:04] became leader of the Labour Party is a kind of historical quirk. um both um

[29:10] horrendous and with horrendous and hilarious consequences. I mean, he only really stood for the Labour leadership because it was his turn. He was always

[29:15] seen as a kind of old duffer, really uninspiring, not particularly intelligent. These were um things that

[29:21] even his friends would say about him, you know, not well read, not well read famously. The fact that he became the kind of standard bearer for

[29:27] the left of British politics is a kind of accident anyway. He obviously wasn't cut out for leading, unlike a kind of

[29:33] McDonald figure who's a bit of a bruiser and a bit of a factionalist. um he just wanted everyone to kind of get along and

[29:38] that was part of his undoing. You then got Zara Sultana who is like an overgrown student union official like

[29:44] she has no idea. It's all about her. It's all about her own personal brand. Um there's a kind of purity um aspect to

[29:51] her politics. Um and it's not to say there are obviously huge disagreements within the party, but it the way in

[29:56] which that's played out on some of these cultural issues has been very interesting. So the particularly on the

[30:02] issue of um transgender you have seen quite openly Zara Sultana on one side um

[30:08] saying that there is no place in progressive politics for anyone who doesn't believe that you know trans women are women or what have you. You

[30:13] got Adm Hussein doing meetings in Blackburn with Jeremy Corbyn who has openly talked about the fact that he's

[30:19] not willing to go along with that and surely there should be space in the left for socially conservative people and so on and so forth. So, it's um the the

[30:26] depressing thing about it, aside from the kind of blowups in your party at the moment, but I worry that anti-Israel

[30:33] bigotry is so intense amongst these people that that glue will hold for many of them. Aside from the kind of, you

[30:38] know, Zoro Sultana might march off in one direction or whatever, but for the moment that is so powerful, depressingly

[30:44] so that it will keep the show on the road, not just with your party, but with the Greens who are going down a very important point and I think this is this

[30:50] is something that Owen Jones tweeted at moments after Zaros sort of he was I

[30:55] think a lot of the people on the on the far left of of British politics were sort of a bit upset in a way when Zack

[31:01] Palansky became leader of the Green Party. Not because they didn't like him, they like him. He's a good communicator. All of this sort of stuff. Persuasive.

[31:09] Exactly. I mean, if that doesn't win the women's vote, who I mean, what will um but but but this idea then I mean, is

[31:14] there going to be a deal between the Greens and your party? Where does your party sit in this? This might give

[31:19] permission for people actually to think these people don't know what they're doing. They can't hold the show on the

[31:24] road. They can't hold this all together. Let's go to the Greens. And the Greens are doing some, I think, a much smarter

[31:31] job in holding the coalition together. You've got a guy called Man Ali who is the uh deputy leader of the Greens. Uh

[31:38] who is basically a Gaza independent, but a counselor. He he he um he shouted Alu

[31:45] Akbar when he was elected as a counselor. Um this is for Gaza as well, he said. Yeah.

[31:50] Yeah. and and and but strangely what you've been able to do is have a bit more deaf politics from the Greens being

[31:59] able to bridge gaps in a way that we just haven't seen in your party. I I think perhaps one of the things is that

[32:06] Zara Sultana represents Coventry South. It's got two universities in it, loads

[32:12] of students. I mean, it's the very definition of a sort of student politics seat. It's perfect for her. Perfect for her. A and she's in a

[32:20] independent group alongside I mean the same is true of Jeremy Corbyn listening to North very socially liberal seat but

[32:26] you look at all of these independents these guys are independents where they won look at the look at the British social attitudes survey or or or the

[32:32] census or you look at sort of attitudes within those things I mean highly highly

[32:38] um socially conservative highly religious some of the least likely

[32:43] places in the country to want to go along with LGBT liberation or however

[32:48] Zara Sultana would describe it. I mean, let alone trans rights. These people don't support equal marriage. Just it's

[32:55] such a difficult coalition to hold together and it requires death, tact, and political talent which I don't think

[33:01] Jeremy Corbyn or Zara Sultana have in spades. That's that's a very kind way of of putting it. Shall we talk very briefly

[33:08] about the one in one out migration scheme? We got a bit of time left. Yeah. Um at least one has gone out. There's Yeah, at the time of recording,

[33:14] one person has gone out. 50,000 in 50,000 in, one out. An Indian chap. Um

[33:21] he's being sent to France and France are just going to instantly deport him to India, which I thought the deal was they

[33:27] were going to look after asylum seekers and and house them instead of us. Um the

[33:32] scheme was derailed immediately by um by lawyers. We know about one man's case from Eratraa. Um 25year-old, his mother

[33:40] paid for him to come over in a small boat. He says that means he was trafficked by his own mother. by his own mother.

[33:46] Yeah. He didn't he didn't want to be he didn't want to come to the UK but really wants to stay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean surely if

[33:51] you're trafficked somewhere the first thing you would would take as a free plane ticket out of her. Absolutely. I mean it's it's the most extraordinary

[33:56] thing. But it is I mean one of the strange legacies of Theresa May. I mean that we have the modern slavery act.

[34:03] I think the only thing that act has done other than stop us deporting people who are clearly not modern slaves

[34:09] is put an annoying little hyper any company that employs over a dozen people or something in this country has to

[34:16] prominently put their modern slavery policy update every year on the front page of their website. You go on any big

[34:22] company website and you'll see on the front page of that website our modern slavery policy. Why does the Guardian

[34:27] have a modern slavery policy? I mean what's going on there?

[34:33] But no, it is extraordinary that I I think what the best thing the best thing this government has done in its entire

[34:39] time in office is come up with a very sly and slippery slogan which is one in

[34:44] one out because it's not true at all. It's one out, one in. Yeah.

[34:50] They're sending someone away but they're getting someone from France in return. I don't think that we should accept this one in one out idea. That that makes it

[34:56] sound like someone's coming in and they're going back out again. No, no, no. It is one out, one in. Yeah. And that obviously doesn't even

[35:03] include the people coming in illegally. Of course, they're not even they're not obviously not counted under the scheme. I mean, I will say one thing for the the

[35:08] modern slavery uh commissioner. She was on radio 4 this morning. Um she said

[35:14] that the modern slavery protections have never been abused. And not once. And even though we're talking about this

[35:19] case where it's so obviously bogus, she's on 120 grand a year. So, which is which is nice. I mean, if if the Labour

[35:25] Party had the stomach for this fight, it would be almost encouraging because especially in terms of actually being

[35:31] able to get large sections of the media, if not on board than at least to kind of

[35:36] acquies to proper reform around not only our kind of domestic legal, you know,

[35:42] um, hurdles to deporting people who have no right to be here, but the kind of broader human rights framework, the ECR,

[35:47] the refugee convention, whatever. It would be a Labor party led by a human rights lawyer. you know, in the same way

[35:53] that the Tory party could get away with doing some quite leftwing. Um, it's almost like the Labour Party can only

[35:59] really get away with could potentially get away with doing some quite rightwing things, but they don't have the stomach for it. I mean, this is not only um

[36:07] Karma here. I mean, you had Lord Herman not too long ago, the attorney general, saying that anything which he deemed to

[36:13] be in contravention of international law, he would essentially do his utmost to veto. Yeah. This is at the core of

[36:19] what they are. And there's there's often a lot of kind of comparison between Star's Labor and New Labor. New Labor,

[36:24] which I, you know, loathe for all kinds of obvious reasons, I'm sure people can guess, had a kind of much more pragmatic

[36:29] streak where a lot of these things were concerned. I mean, even many of the new labor cabinet ministers um who ushered

[36:35] in the um the whole kind of regime that we're slowly but surely trying to unpick. It seems like Jack Straw, David

[36:41] Blunket have come out very forcefully in recent weeks and said, "This is a problem. We at the very least need to suspend our membership of the ECR. We

[36:48] need to look a fresh at these international agreements. And yet the um Star's Labor Party are incredibly

[36:54] blinkered on these particular questions. If I was if I was going to bet any money about 6 months ago on someone being sacked by Star in a reshuffle, I'd have

[37:00] gone Lord Hurmer. Yeah. And yet you had the most comprehensive reshuffle of just about every post. I mean the home secretary is new, the

[37:06] foreign secretary's new obviously a new housing section agriculture secretary new. You look across the board,

[37:11] everyone's changed. But one person who's kept his job is Lord Hermer. And this is despite I know

[37:17] for a fact there are people sitting around that cabinet table who loathe his presence in the room who think that his

[37:23] he sees his job as as blocking as stopping. Um and and yet isn't it

[37:28] strange that he's kept his job. There are a lot of people who like that job and dawn loved that job. Um she of

[37:34] course was sacked in order that got it. Um but why put Chabana Mammud as home

[37:39] secretary if you're going to keep Lord Herma as attorney general? I mean it just to

[37:44] frustrate her essentially. It it seems like a very very odd decision. Perhaps

[37:50] it's an insight into what Saki Starma really thinks beyond the sort of pragmatic or or political decisions.

[37:57] Where does he ideologically sit alongside Lord? Thank you so much for watching the Spiked podcast. We'll be

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