Gad Saad on Charlie’s Legacy, “Suicidal Empathy,” and Why Strength Keeps the Peace

[00:07] [Music]

[00:20] [Music]

[00:24] All right, welcome back to the Charlie

[00:25] Kirk show. Andrew Kovit in here,

[00:27] executive producer of this show, joined

[00:29] by Jack Poic, uh, host of Human Events

[00:32] Daily with Jack Pobic. So honored to

[00:34] have our next guest here, Dr. Gad Sad,

[00:38] who is a great friend of the show, has

[00:41] been a great friend to Charlie Kirk. He

[00:43] is also the a scholar. I want to get

[00:46] this title right because he has he's

[00:50] actually uh a new wonderful title. Dr.

[00:53] Gadsad, scholar at the Declaration of

[00:55] Independence Center for the Study of

[00:57] American Freedom at University of

[00:59] Mississippi. Uh is also the author of a

[01:01] bunch of amazing books, The Parasitic

[01:03] Mind. He's working on a new one. I want

[01:04] to talk to him about that. Uh Dr. Sad,

[01:07] welcome to the Charlie Kirk show and

[01:08] thank you for making the time.

[01:10] >> Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[01:12] Cheers.

[01:13] >> Yeah. Well, Dr. I want to let you start

[01:16] uh where you know I think it makes sense

[01:18] most and that is you know we haven't had

[01:20] you back on the show since you know

[01:23] Charlie was taken from us on September

[01:25] 10th and I just want to give you a

[01:27] chance to reflect on what this last

[01:29] month and plus has has meant to you um

[01:33] and and just let you reflect on on what

[01:35] a loss we've all suffered.

[01:37] >> Uh I mean I sort of oscillated from

[01:41] sadness to anger.

[01:44] uh only maybe I think it was maybe a

[01:46] month prior to the tragic day I had

[01:50] appeared on the show with uh Charlie and

[01:53] I I I've told the story before but it's

[01:56] worth repeating here. You know I've

[01:58] spoken to many wonderful people you know

[02:01] throughout my professional career many

[02:02] of whom have come on my show. I mean

[02:04] really really top people. My daughter,

[02:06] who's 16 years old, never asked for me

[02:10] to introduce her to anybody when I was

[02:12] appearing on Charlie's show this last

[02:15] time, she came home excitedly and said,

[02:18] "Could you please just introduce me to

[02:20] Charlie?" And so that kind of gives you

[02:22] a sense. I'm 61 years old and a fan of

[02:25] Charlie and my 16-year-old is a fan of

[02:28] Charlie. So, uh, it is an immeasurable

[02:30] tragedy, but here we are, uh, promoting

[02:34] his legacy. So hopefully he lives on in

[02:36] all our hearts and minds.

[02:39] >> Yeah. And Dr. Sad, maybe that's the next

[02:42] best place to start is, you know, you

[02:44] talk about his legacy. I I don't

[02:47] typically throw this question out to

[02:48] people, but you are a public

[02:51] intellectual. You are a great thinker.

[02:54] You have a way of distilling ideas. What

[02:55] is Charlie's legacy in your mind, and

[02:58] what do you hope that it will grow into?

[03:02] You know there are several ways by which

[03:04] I could answer this question. I I'll

[03:06] take a stab at one or two ways. Number

[03:08] one, you know, in chapter in the last

[03:10] chapter of the parasitic mind, I ask

[03:12] people to activate their inner honey

[03:15] badger. And I use that terminology

[03:17] because the honey badger has been

[03:19] officially

[03:21] uh classified as the most fierce animal

[03:24] in the animal kingdom. Now, I don't mean

[03:26] when I say activate your inner honey

[03:28] badger for you to be violently

[03:30] ferocious, but it means, you know, get

[03:32] off the couch and do big things, stand

[03:35] tall. And Charlie was not only

[03:37] physically tall at 6'4, but he was a

[03:41] tall honey badger in that at 18 years

[03:43] old when most of us are worried about

[03:46] how we're going to get through the next

[03:48] day as you know with teenaged angst, he

[03:51] starts off something that is absolutely

[03:54] impossible that most people in their 80s

[03:57] wouldn't dare start. And so, first of

[03:59] all, the fact that he had the hutbah,

[04:01] right, which is a Yedish word for sort

[04:03] of existential gull, the fact that he

[04:06] had the confidence to say at 18 years

[04:08] old, I'm not going to university. I've

[04:10] got better ways to be able to contribute

[04:12] to the cause is something that we could

[04:14] all uh cherish and be inspired by. But

[04:18] then the fact that he was able to cater

[04:20] to the young people to get involved to

[04:23] get excited so that my daughter is not

[04:25] asking me to introduce her to Elon Musk

[04:28] but is asking me to introduce her to

[04:30] Charlie Kirk that says everything you

[04:33] need to hear about his legacy. He is a

[04:35] unique individual in that he had the

[04:38] intellect, he had the the political

[04:41] ability to organize, he had the the

[04:43] warmth, right? He always has a smile.

[04:45] Even when he's engaging in difficult

[04:48] debates, he's warm. He's engaging. So,

[04:51] he's he's he's an immeasurable loss.

[04:53] Truly one in a generation type of

[04:55] fellow.

[04:57] >> Yeah, absolutely. Giant of our

[04:58] generation. And but he his memory and

[05:02] his legacy will live on and you know,

[05:04] we're committed at Turning Point on the

[05:06] show to growing it, to expanding it as

[05:08] best we can. and the outpouring of love

[05:10] and support that we've seen both at the

[05:13] show but at the students on campuses uh

[05:15] has been truly truly wonderful and

[05:18] heartening to see. Now Dr. Sad you you

[05:21] we are going to get into some news the

[05:22] day with you because you have a way of

[05:24] making sense of the chaos unlike few

[05:26] can. But I do want to pick up on

[05:29] something we touched on in the previous

[05:30] hour and that is the rise of Islam. is

[05:33] something you and Charlie talked a lot

[05:35] about and I just want to play one clip

[05:37] from a conversation that you had with

[05:39] Charlie on this show 290.

[05:42] >> What would you said the west is a woman

[05:44] to be mounted that is the Islamic creed

[05:46] remind us of it. I would repeatedly hear

[05:49] from Arabic speaking, Muslim speaking

[05:51] immigrants and in this case it was in

[05:53] Canada always say that the West is a

[05:58] woman to be mounted. And what the reflex

[06:01] that that captures is that all of the

[06:04] virtues that we think as laudable in the

[06:07] west, compassion, magnanimity,

[06:10] uh generosity, empathy are heard as

[06:15] weakness. weakness, weakness, and

[06:17] weakness by cultures that don't

[06:20] necessarily share our infinite less. And

[06:23] so it's exactly what they're saying.

[06:25] West is weak. It's a woman. Therefore,

[06:31] >> yeah, powerful stuff. And we we've seen

[06:33] those clips go viral where you can

[06:35] actually hear them in their own words

[06:37] say, "The West is a woman to be

[06:38] mounted." especially obviously I think

[06:39] the clip that I've seen was from the UK,

[06:42] a place that Charlie visited uh

[06:44] relatively recently before I mean soon

[06:47] before uh the tragic events of September

[06:49] 10th happened. And so he saw it up close

[06:51] and you had zeroed in on this idea of

[06:53] suicidal empathy. This this it's almost

[06:56] a an opening that both the left and

[07:00] Islam were exploiting.

[07:03] >> Exactly. Okay. Uh maybe I can give you a

[07:05] a quick synopsis of the the framework of

[07:07] suicidal empathy. Many people have

[07:10] wrongly uh presumed that what I mean by

[07:14] suicidal empathy is that empathy is a

[07:17] bad thing. Of course, nothing could be

[07:19] further from the truth. We are a social

[07:21] species and therefore it makes perfect

[07:23] evolutionary sense that that empathy

[07:26] would be part of our repertoire of

[07:28] possible strategies. Right? For you and

[07:30] I to have a meaningful conversation, I

[07:33] need to put myself in your mind and vice

[07:36] versa. That's called theory of mind,

[07:38] which is part of cognitive empathy.

[07:40] Autistic children, for example, fail a

[07:43] theory of mind test. This is how we

[07:45] diagnose them as being autistic. So

[07:48] empathy when properly modulated to the

[07:51] right targets in the right situations in

[07:54] the right amounts is a perfectly

[07:57] relevant and appropriate evolutionary

[07:59] response. The problem arises as is the

[08:02] case with many psychiatric disorders

[08:04] when you have a disregulation of this

[08:07] otherwise beneficial virtue. Right? So

[08:10] for example laughter is great right? It

[08:13] has medicinal properties. But then you

[08:15] could have pseudo balbar effect what the

[08:18] Joker in the movie had where he because

[08:20] of abuse he starts laughing

[08:22] uncontrollably in wrong situations or

[08:25] the way Kamala Harris can cackle the way

[08:28] that she does that becomes an

[08:30] inappropriate form of laughter. And so

[08:32] suicidal empathy takes this beautiful

[08:35] virtue and then because it becomes

[08:38] disregulated, it becomes hyperactive and

[08:40] it targets the wrong targets leads to

[08:44] the demise of the west. And unless we

[08:46] get rid of this reflex really quickly, I

[08:49] can assure you that the west will fall.

[08:51] It might take five years, it might take

[08:53] 50 years or it might take 500 years, but

[08:55] it will fall the way many other

[08:57] societies have.

[09:00] >> Yeah. No, that's really well said. I you

[09:02] know and I I think of basically what

[09:04] MAGA is, what conservatism has

[09:06] transformed into in large part thanks to

[09:09] President Trump, but also to Charlie

[09:10] Kirk and others is that it now has a

[09:13] muscularness to it. It has it has a

[09:15] backbone. It has a a fighting chance.

[09:17] Ultimately, that's why the left hates it

[09:19] so much because it's effective. because

[09:21] it is the it is the anti-m it is the

[09:24] counteraction to what the left has been

[09:26] doing in this country since essentially

[09:28] post World War II in the uh the invasion

[09:32] the the the move in our institutions the

[09:35] long march through the institutions of

[09:37] progressivism of liberalism uh in a

[09:39] negative sense obviously in that second

[09:41] sense in the second word but yeah this

[09:43] is the this is the antivenenom of what

[09:45] we've what we're doing at MAGA what

[09:47] we're doing in the conservative movement

[09:48] and President Trump that's why the fight

[09:50] is So intense. Uh Dr. Sad, we're going

[09:52] to continue in the break. Uh we got to

[09:54] say bye to radio for one second here and

[09:55] we'll be right back.

[09:59] [Music]

[10:07] >> All right, welcome back to the Charlie

[10:09] Kirk show. We're going to roll through

[10:10] the breaks with Dr. Sad because it's

[10:12] just there's just too much to get to. I

[10:14] want to uh share with the audience a

[10:15] little bit of breaking news right now.

[10:17] President Trump has just concluded his

[10:20] call with uh Vladimir Putin. They've

[10:23] been on a very long call and it looks

[10:26] like he's saying that they have agreed

[10:28] to send uh high high-ranking delegates

[10:30] led by Marco Rubio to meet uh and then

[10:34] they are going to after that meeting

[10:37] with high level adviserss the United

[10:39] States will be meeting or President

[10:41] Trump will be meeting with uh Putin in

[10:44] Budapest. So, President Trump hot off

[10:47] the heels of

[10:49] >> getting peace in the Middle East is now

[10:51] going to be meeting with uh President

[10:53] Putin in the near term. So, hopefully we

[10:55] can get that as he calls it in glorious

[10:57] war between Russia and Ukraine brought

[10:59] to an end. He is going to be meeting

[11:00] with President Silinski tomorrow here in

[11:03] Washington DC. So, uh Jack, that feels

[11:06] like a good time to throw to you. uh

[11:09] yeah, you you are uh you you you do uh

[11:12] have a a bit of a feel for Eastern

[11:14] Europe as well as uh war analysis in

[11:17] general.

[11:18] >> Yeah. No, I mean uh look, I've I've

[11:20] traveled to the war um couple weeks

[11:23] after it started in back in uh March of

[11:25] 2022

[11:27] or excuse me, May of 2022. Um I've been

[11:29] to Budapest a few times. I was at the

[11:31] Anchorage uh meeting. I accompanied the

[11:33] president's delegation as a new media

[11:36] member there aboard Air Force One when

[11:38] he met with Putin um just uh in Alaska

[11:40] just a few weeks ago in Alaska. So I was

[11:42] in the room with himself, Putin, Lavrov,

[11:45] all the rest. And uh what can I say?

[11:47] Looks like I'm going to Budapest.

[11:48] >> Oh wow. There you go. Uh Dr. Sad um and

[11:52] we'll keep Jack involved in I want to

[11:54] make sure we we're working you in Jack

[11:56] here.

[11:56] >> No, but Dr. Sad maybe maybe comment

[11:58] really quickly. We we we've been told

[12:00] that American leadership on the world

[12:02] stage was coming to an end, that Trump

[12:04] was going to to ruin America's standing

[12:06] in the world, and yet here he is pulling

[12:08] off win after win after win, achieving

[12:10] peace.

[12:11] Tie that into what it means for the West

[12:14] that that America's leadership is strong

[12:16] and robust and we're leading the way.

[12:19] Look, uh to to go back to our earlier

[12:21] conversation where many Muslims say the

[12:24] West is a woman to be mounted. Uh

[12:27] President Trump lives in the real world

[12:30] where he actually understands human

[12:32] nature. He he may not call himself an

[12:35] evolutionary psychologist, but he is an

[12:37] evolutionary psychologist because

[12:38] throughout his long and successful life,

[12:41] he's had to deal with many people,

[12:43] whether it be in his real estate life or

[12:45] in his TV life where his ability to

[12:48] succeed in those forums stems from his,

[12:52] you know, understanding of human nature.

[12:54] And so having people like Joe Biden and

[12:58] the others super sweet and kind and

[13:00] empathetic diplomats who cross their

[13:02] legs like Justin Trudeau might look nice

[13:05] because you could show off your really

[13:07] colorful socks, but that's not that's

[13:09] not what really nasty folks around the

[13:12] world respect, right? So under, you

[13:15] know, I come from the Middle East. In

[13:16] the Middle East, we have the the creed,

[13:18] right? might is right or as you probably

[13:21] of course know the old term you know if

[13:24] you wish to have uh peace prepare for

[13:26] war. There are endless, you know,

[13:28] military dictims that speak to the fact

[13:31] that it's nice to have a velvet glove

[13:34] while you're shaking someone's hands.

[13:37] But make sure that behind your back you

[13:39] have a really big stick, right? As you

[13:42] also know, speak softly but carry a big

[13:45] stick, right? So all of these maxims

[13:48] exist throughout history because the

[13:50] world doesn't exist in a utopia, in a

[13:53] democratic progressive utopia. It exists

[13:56] in the real world where people respect

[14:00] might and Donald Trump exemplifies that.

[14:02] That's why you're seeing win after win.

[14:05] >> Well, Dr. Sad, you know, you're you're

[14:07] reminding me of something you said on

[14:09] the show with Charlie years ago. I I

[14:12] remember it very clearly because we were

[14:14] at Berkeley and he was about to do a

[14:18] campus stop at Berkeley and a

[14:20] tableabling stop there and we had to we

[14:23] had to do the show. So, we set up, you

[14:26] know, in some back room. We set up a

[14:28] kind of a mobile mobile studio in some

[14:30] back room at Berkeley and you you guys

[14:33] were talking about gender ideology and

[14:36] the transing of youth and this things,

[14:37] but but it relates to this conversation

[14:39] too. The line you used and he stole it.

[14:41] I don't know that he always gave you

[14:43] attribution, but I remember hearing it

[14:44] and going, "Oh, that's a good line. I I

[14:46] texted to he's like, "Oh, totally.

[14:47] That's great." But you said the the

[14:49] pesky shackles of uh reality. the pesky

[14:53] shackles of reality, the these things

[14:55] like you might think you can fly, but

[14:57] you're gonna jump off a building and

[14:58] find out really quick that gravity still

[15:00] pulls you down. You might think that uh

[15:02] the rules of nature, nature's god don't

[15:04] apply to you, but just test nature's god

[15:06] and find out. Um so, so I I I love that

[15:09] because you you you are a realist. Trump

[15:11] is a pragmatist. Uh and he knows that

[15:14] the vile monsters on the stage, it's

[15:16] better to work with them. It's better to

[15:18] have them fear you and respect you uh

[15:20] than to be cowed by them. So we're going

[15:22] to welcome back national radio more with

[15:23] Dr. Gadsad and Jack Pobic in just one

[15:26] minute.

[15:37] [Music]

[15:39] All right, welcome back to the Charlie

[15:41] Kirk show. I'm Andrew Kov, executive

[15:43] producer of the Spine Show, which is of

[15:45] course the Charlie Kirk show. joined by

[15:47] Jack Bobic, Human Events Daily, also a

[15:50] Turning Point USA friend and

[15:52] contributor. Uh Jack, uh Dr. Sad, I'm a

[15:54] little upset at Jack right now because

[15:56] Jack uh spilled the news that uh I

[15:59] spilled coffee in all that's spilled

[16:02] around here.

[16:02] >> Yeah. And now he's spilling tea, coffee,

[16:04] all all the things. U but but listen, I

[16:07] I love this because uh well, I don't

[16:09] love the coffee spill. There's like

[16:11] memes being made.

[16:12] >> I warned him about the Kurig. I said we

[16:15] got a bum Kirigan here and he did not

[16:17] heed my warning. And

[16:19] >> have my coffee right here.

[16:20] >> By the way, I have a I have a bone to

[16:22] pick with both of you. I don't like to

[16:24] be on a show where the hosts are both

[16:27] extremely good-looking. It's pissing me

[16:29] off.

[16:30] >> No, you know, you know,

[16:31] >> come back when Blake is here, then.

[16:34] >> Blake was a handsome man. We're going to

[16:36] get him married. Anyways, here here's

[16:37] here's when he joins the non. What's

[16:39] funny is we have teams that clip the

[16:41] show and like some of them are connected

[16:43] with us and they're our staff and others

[16:45] they just kind of come in and out. One

[16:47] of those ones that just come in and out

[16:49] uh was basically told me this morning

[16:52] that Jack looks much better than me and

[16:54] I said, "Okay, that's fine. That's a

[16:56] weird observation."

[16:57] >> Do you do push-ups this morning?

[16:58] >> I did not do my push-ups. I woke up

[17:00] early to get to the fox.

[17:02] >> That's what he didn't do his push-ups

[17:03] this morning.

[17:03] >> So, you know, one of what I love here

[17:05] though, Dr. Sad, is that you and Jack

[17:06] Bobic are on a show together. think um

[17:08] you and you and Jack have disagreed on

[17:10] on minor honestly very minor things in

[17:12] the past but in the in this post era uh

[17:16] of this post Charlie era we all have to

[17:18] come together and I love that and and

[17:21] you know I I feel like if you look at

[17:23] the the medal ceremony Dr. sad. You had

[17:26] all these Fox hosts, you had uh senators

[17:28] and congressmen that don't always see

[17:30] eye to eye coming together to celebrate

[17:32] Charlie and u so I'm just glad this

[17:34] moment is happening. And Jack, I don't

[17:36] know if you want.

[17:36] >> Well, no, I actually the the question

[17:38] that I had and and honestly it was, you

[17:41] know, really to kind of pick your brain

[17:42] because you you have such a good theory

[17:44] of mind of the left and such a good

[17:47] theory of mind of of you have this

[17:48] ability to really get into what makes

[17:51] them tick. And one of the things that

[17:53] we've all been grappling with here, Dr.

[17:54] Sad, is this this idea that

[17:57] there was this kid, Tyler Robinson, an

[18:00] ex Mormon or comes from a Mormon family,

[18:03] would then find himself on a roof

[18:05] hundreds of miles away from where he

[18:07] lives in a relationship with a trans

[18:11] boyfriend. And so a a biological male

[18:13] who was transitioning to a female and

[18:16] then somehow thinks he's defending his

[18:19] boyfriend by and again allegedly legally

[18:22] speaking pulling a trigger and shooting

[18:24] Charlie Kirk. And I wonder at all if you

[18:26] could possibly attempt to unpack that

[18:29] twisted psychology for us.

[18:31] >> Yeah, thank you for that question. Uh so

[18:33] I t I don't know if you guys have heard

[18:35] me discuss uh the difference between

[18:38] deontological ethics and

[18:40] consequentialist ethics. So it might be

[18:42] worth repeating it here even if some of

[18:44] the viewers might be familiar with it.

[18:45] Deontological ethics are absolute

[18:48] statements. So for example if I say it

[18:50] is never okay to lie that would be a

[18:52] detological statement. If I were to say

[18:55] it's okay to lie to spare someone's

[18:57] feelings I would be engaging in

[18:59] consequentialism. And of course, for

[19:01] many things in life, we are all

[19:03] consequentialists. I always joke,

[19:05] although I'm being serious, that if you

[19:06] wish to have a long happy marriage, if

[19:08] you hear the following question, do I

[19:10] look fat in those jeans? Very quickly,

[19:13] put on your consequentialist hat. And

[19:15] even if you have to slightly lie, you're

[19:17] doing it because you love your spouse

[19:19] and you don't want to hurt her feelings.

[19:21] So that's perfectly fine. But when it

[19:23] comes to certain foundational principles

[19:25] that certainly define the unique

[19:27] American experience, presumption of

[19:30] innocence in the courtroom, freedom of

[19:32] speech, freedom of inquiry, those things

[19:35] cannot be consequentialist principles.

[19:38] Right? So if I say I believe in freedom

[19:40] of speech, but not if you marginalize a

[19:43] particular group, then I'm succumbing to

[19:45] consequentialism. Well, to now wrap that

[19:48] up to your question, I think what this

[19:50] the the the alleged assassin has done is

[19:53] he's drank from the Kool-Aid of the pool

[19:56] of consequentialism, which basically

[19:58] says Charlie Kirk is such a dangerous

[20:01] guy that the deontological principle of

[20:04] freedom of speech and an exchange of

[20:06] ideas no longer applies to Charlie Kirk.

[20:09] He is saying words that are akin to

[20:12] violence. So if I stand on that rooftop

[20:14] and take him out, boy, I should be

[20:17] louded as a hero rather than be put in

[20:19] prison. So that's what makes

[20:21] consequentialism so dangerous.

[20:25] And so in in his mind, it's almost like

[20:27] he he feels as though he's he's

[20:28] defending uh his his boyfriend, his

[20:31] lover. Um again, we don't know all the

[20:34] specific details there, but I'm just

[20:36] just going off of what we've seen. And

[20:38] and and it's it's a complete, you know,

[20:40] you talk about this the um tox suicidal

[20:43] toxic empathy. It seems like it's almost

[20:45] that suicidal empathy but in in the

[20:47] person of one individual here.

[20:49] >> Well, exactly. But that's why

[20:52] >> so suicidal empathy is targeting the

[20:55] wrong targets, right? We love the Hamas

[20:57] fighters, but we have no empathy for the

[21:00] Jews. So there is no empathy for Charlie

[21:02] Kirk and his right to speak freely.

[21:04] There is only empathy for the trans

[21:06] community.

[21:08] right? Or his wife, his children, his

[21:11] friends, and everyone else.

[21:12] >> And so on. Um Dr. Gad, we're going to

[21:15] keep going through the breaks because

[21:16] it's just too good. Jack Basobic. Uh

[21:18] hang right there. We're going to take a

[21:19] quick break. We'll be right back.

[21:25] [Music]

[21:26] [Applause]