Douglas Murray on Charlie Kirk: Words Are Not Violence, But Silence Can Be

[00:00] Joining me now is the author of

[00:02] groundbreaking works, international

[00:04] bestsellers, his latest on democracies

[00:07] and death cults, Douglas Murray. Let's

[00:10] start with the murder of Charlie Kirk.

[00:13] One of the brightest and bravest voices

[00:16] of his generation, a genuinely decent

[00:19] man, a father of two, shot dead at the

[00:22] age of 31 at the type of event that had

[00:25] really become synonymous with his name.

[00:28] He understood the importance of robust

[00:31] debate, of maintaining dialogue with

[00:34] your ideological opponents.

[00:36] >> When people stop talking, really bad

[00:39] stuff starts. When marriages stop

[00:41] talking, divorce happens. When

[00:42] civilizations stop talking, civil war

[00:44] ensues. When you stop having a human

[00:46] connection with someone you disagree

[00:48] with, it becomes a lot easier to want to

[00:50] commit violence against that group. What

[00:52] we as a culture have to get back to is

[00:54] being able to have reasonable

[00:55] disagreement where violence is not an

[00:57] option.

[00:59] Douglas, this is a heartbreaking,

[01:03] unimaginable loss.

[01:06] >> Yeah, we're we're speaking just a few

[01:08] hours after the murder of Charlie Kirk.

[01:11] Um, and I like everyone, my thoughts are

[01:14] with Charlie, but also his wife, his

[01:16] young wife, and his two young children

[01:18] that he leaves behind. Um it's uh an

[01:21] extraordinary appalling

[01:24] act of violence and uh it's I wish I

[01:28] could say that it's completely uns

[01:30] completely surprising but but it isn't

[01:33] because of course we've had

[01:35] assassination attempts on President

[01:38] Trump who Charlie Kirk has been a very

[01:40] vocal supporter and ally of for many

[01:42] years now and there have been many

[01:44] threats uh over the years against

[01:47] Charlie himself. Uh what we just heard

[01:50] him saying in that video is something

[01:52] that Charlie said often and it's

[01:54] completely true. Uh he spent a lot of

[01:57] his energies uh since he first came onto

[01:59] the scene at the young age of about 18

[02:02] or so and founded Turning Point. Since

[02:05] then he he he he had always uh made an

[02:09] effort to stress this point that yes,

[02:12] you need to be able to talk. you need to

[02:15] have differences of opinion out in the

[02:18] public square and that it is the best

[02:22] way to avoid a descent into political

[02:25] violence. And although he made that

[02:27] point so often, so many of his critics,

[02:31] >> most of whom I suspect really never

[02:33] listened to anything that Charlie said,

[02:36] um, demonized him, misrepresented him,

[02:40] and did that classic thing that

[02:42] unfortunately uh, uh, so much of the

[02:45] left does, which is to regard their

[02:49] political opponents not just as wrong,

[02:52] but as evil. And this is something that

[02:56] many of us have pointed out over the

[02:58] years. Uh most conservatives tend to

[03:00] think that the left is wrong. Uh but not

[03:04] that it is certainly not in its entirety

[03:06] evil. Um but that favor is not returned

[03:10] the other way around. And so we have uh

[03:14] people routinely claiming that

[03:17] mainstream conservative voices like

[03:20] Charlie Kirks are somehow extreme. uh

[03:24] and that they somehow themselves are

[03:27] causing harm. Think of all the people in

[03:30] recent years who Charlie has talked

[03:32] about

[03:33] >> uh who you and I Rita have talked about

[03:35] >> who have said that words are violence

[03:38] and that countering ideas or questioning

[03:41] ideas uh is literally killing people and

[03:45] much more. Well, here we see once again

[03:49] uh the reality of it. Uh uh words are

[03:52] not violence. Um shooting somebody in

[03:56] the throat is violence. And I really

[03:59] hope that a moment like this as well as

[04:02] thinking of Charlie and his family,

[04:05] people think uh if they're on the side

[04:09] that has been demonizing

[04:11] uh their opponents to such an extent and

[04:13] dehumanizing them, I hope they think

[04:16] themselves about the fruits of their

[04:19] their own words.

[04:24] >> And Charlie was rare. He he had the

[04:28] ability to persuade so many from across

[04:31] the political divide. That's rare these

[04:34] days. It it made him enormously

[04:37] influential,

[04:38] particularly along amongst young men.

[04:41] And Douglas, it was such a wholesome

[04:44] message at its heart. It was about

[04:46] prioritizing family and religion and

[04:49] truth.

[04:50] >> And you spoke about the hate he

[04:52] received. It was so unhinged, so ugly, a

[04:57] lot of it from media, and it continued

[05:01] even after he was shot. Let me play you

[05:04] a little of the discussion on MSNBC

[05:06] earlier today.

[05:08] >> He's been one of the most divisive,

[05:10] especially divisive, younger figures in

[05:12] this who is constantly sort of pushing

[05:15] this sort of hate speech or sort of

[05:18] aimed at certain groups. And I always go

[05:20] back to hateful thoughts lead to hateful

[05:24] words which then lead to hateful

[05:27] actions.

[05:32] >> I'm not going to say what I want to say.

[05:34] What's your response, Douglas, to what

[05:37] you just heard? That was Matthew Dow on

[05:39] MSNBC earlier.

[05:42] Well, I mean, uh, the obvious thing is

[05:44] to make a rhetorical point about what

[05:46] Dow said there, which is what if

[05:49] somebody had hateful thoughts about him?

[05:52] Um, what if, uh, his hateful words that

[05:55] he said just there led to somebody

[05:58] shooting him or a loved one of his or a

[06:00] friend of his in the throat? Would he

[06:03] exercise the same attempt at logical

[06:06] consistency then? I would think not,

[06:09] probably. Um but yes, that is an

[06:12] absolutely classic example of smearing

[06:16] uh the only just dead. Um and uh what

[06:21] Matthew Dow said there is completely

[06:23] shameful and if N MSNBC had any shame,

[06:27] they would have said that immediately to

[06:29] him and taken him off the air. uh what

[06:34] Charlie Kirk argued for uh throughout

[06:38] his public life, which was effectively

[06:39] throughout his adult life, were very

[06:42] straightforward things that were not

[06:44] controversial until very very recently.

[06:47] For instance, what this ignoramus dowed

[06:51] uh thinks is controversial, if he if he

[06:53] bothered ever to listen to anything that

[06:55] Charlie Ko said, and I I doubt he did

[06:57] before deciding to smear him before his

[06:59] corpse is cold. Um what what Charlie

[07:03] Kirk said were things like there are two

[07:06] sexes. There are men and there are

[07:08] women.

[07:09] >> He said America is a tremendous country

[07:11] and he was enormously proud of it and an

[07:14] extraordinary patriot. That wasn't

[07:17] neither of these things were

[07:19] controversial until very very recently.

[07:22] Um Charlie Kirk argued for biblical

[07:26] values for Judeo-Christian values. that

[07:29] wasn't controversial until extremely

[07:32] recently. Um, none of what Charlie Kirk

[07:36] argued for was in any way hateful. Um,

[07:39] and uh, I'm I wish, as I say, that

[07:42] people like Dowed, MSNBC,

[07:46] and many others realize that the hate

[07:49] has been so disproportionately coming

[07:52] from them. It's them who say who who say

[07:56] that saying that uh America is a good

[07:59] country is somehow hateful. It's them

[08:02] that says that saying that there are two

[08:03] biological sexes is somehow hateful. No,

[08:06] it isn't. None of that was ever hateful.

[08:09] It was a it was a statement of fact or

[08:12] of opinion. And that used to be allowed

[08:15] in America and that used to be respected

[08:17] in America. And it's a terrible,

[08:20] terrible demonstration of where America

[08:23] and the West has come to that the

[08:25] statement of obvious truths and the

[08:28] statement of opinions that millions and

[08:31] millions of people hold fast to should

[08:35] be smeared in this way.

[08:40] >> Uh Doubt said plenty more and there's

[08:42] been other media outlets who've

[08:44] disgraced themselves today. Uh ju just

[08:46] to clarify he made those comments after

[08:49] Charlie was shot but before his death

[08:51] was announced but shameful in at any

[08:54] time to be saying that to be blaming the

[08:57] victim for speaking the truth. Ch

[09:00] Douglas, the next generation of young

[09:03] men in particular are becoming

[09:05] increasingly conservative, increasingly

[09:08] right-wing, rejecting so much of the

[09:11] leftist ideology that's been shoved down

[09:14] their throats by the culture, by schools

[09:16] and universities.

[09:18] And like yourself, Charlie Kirk has

[09:21] played a significant role in that in

[09:23] opening the eyes of so many young

[09:26] Americans, young people across the West,

[09:29] a uh making them unafraid to speak,

[09:33] making them uh say their opinions boldly

[09:37] and putting forward an alternative view

[09:39] to the prevailing dogma. And Douglas, he

[09:43] always did it

[09:44] >> so politely, even in the face of

[09:47] terrible abuse. I used to play his

[09:49] videos on this program all the time, the

[09:51] interactions where he would cop this

[09:54] ugly, unhinged abuse, and he would

[09:56] always remain calm and politely

[09:58] dismantle the the radical left's

[10:01] arguments in the face of terrible abuse.

[10:04] and they still shot him. No matter how

[10:07] much you spoke about the importance of

[10:09] dialogue, about not demonizing your

[10:11] opponents, about engaging and and making

[10:15] sure that uh we're at a point where we

[10:17] can still talk to each other and they

[10:20] still shot him.

[10:22] >> We'll find out who they is, I suppose,

[10:25] in the the coming uh hours and days. I

[10:29] think that whoever the shooter turns out

[10:33] to be, um I do hope that people who

[10:38] listened uh to Charlie, who were

[10:40] inspired by him, um he he was an

[10:44] extraordinary communicator. I mean his

[10:46] success uh his earned success uh over

[10:50] the years of his adult life came about

[10:54] because he had an enormous skill at

[10:56] speaking to people and for people and uh

[11:00] he was enormously persuasive. He was

[11:03] enormously skilled and talented and as I

[11:06] say it needs to be said again an

[11:08] incredible patriot. Um the I hope that

[11:12] after this there will be many people I

[11:14] suspect particularly young people who um

[11:19] learned a lot from Charlie, admired

[11:21] Charlie and much more who will be um

[11:25] tempted at a moment like this uh to sink

[11:28] to the kind of level that they perceive

[11:31] in their opponents.

[11:34] I think these moments can be real

[11:36] crossroads. And I hope that all of those

[11:41] young men and women across America and

[11:43] elsewhere who were inspired and educated

[11:47] and informed by Charlie uh realize that

[11:51] their task now is to pick up where he

[11:55] left off and to emulate

[11:58] the what he did and to emulate the

[12:02] courtesy, the patriotism, the decency

[12:06] uh that he showed.

[12:08] in his public uh life and that they

[12:12] don't sink into the kind of behavior

[12:16] which they see uh among their opponents.

[12:20] I hope that is the case because you say

[12:22] Rita um Charlie always demonstrated such

[12:26] considerable courtesy and decency uh

[12:29] even to his political opponents who were

[12:32] screaming abuse at him and much more.

[12:35] Um, so it it could be, as I say, this is

[12:38] only hours after this uh terrible news

[12:41] has come through. It could be one of

[12:42] those moments where some people sink

[12:45] down and meet their opponents on their

[12:47] opponent's terms. But it would be a much

[12:50] better thing for America and for all of

[12:53] us, I think, if we rise above that. And

[12:56] remember that what Charlie said and was

[12:58] saying right up until the moment he was

[13:00] shot remains as true now as it was all

[13:05] these years, which is that yes, we need

[13:09] to be able to explore ideas. We need to

[13:11] be able to talk. We need to be able to

[13:13] talk across divides. And that if we lose

[13:16] that then people resort to violence. And

[13:20] um how terrible it is that something

[13:23] that he perceived so clearly and said so

[13:26] often um should be something which has

[13:29] now been proven uh by the

[13:33] the evil person who's taken his life

[13:35] away.

[13:38] >> And he was always so brave. he would you

[13:41] talked about speaking truth and in the

[13:43] past week he has spoken a lot of truth a

[13:47] lot of uncomfortable truths about crime

[13:49] in the US uh particularly after the

[13:52] murder of the Ukrainian uh young

[13:55] Ukrainian woman down in North Carolina

[13:57] and uh the media's reluctance initially

[14:00] to touch that story at all the over

[14:03] representation

[14:04] of a segment of the population in the

[14:06] violent crime stats so many really

[14:09] crucial issues Douglas

[14:11] that should be spoken about. But

[14:14] >> yes,

[14:14] >> the media is is perhaps afraid to so

[14:17] many commentators don't want to be cast

[14:19] as racist or bigots or be called hateful

[14:22] like Charlie was for stating facts for

[14:27] stating facts that may be uncomfortable,

[14:29] but how are you going to ever tackle

[14:31] these issues if you don't actually even

[14:33] acknowledge them?

[14:35] >> Absolutely. Uh, and what happens if you

[14:38] don't acknowledge issues which are

[14:39] staring everyone in the face is you push

[14:42] them down under and they bubble away and

[14:44] and evil things come up. You you you

[14:48] seed uh an evil harvest when you do

[14:51] that. Uh I I I suppose there's one other

[14:54] thing I would say about that which is

[14:56] that after an act of violence like this

[14:58] as well as great anger and great rage

[15:01] which many people will have. Um there

[15:03] will be some people who will feel um in

[15:06] some way um afraid or or cowed by this.

[15:11] They may not admit to it. They may not

[15:13] wish to explore it. But but they it's

[15:15] understandable. Um there was no reason

[15:18] why somebody saying what Charlie Kirk

[15:20] said should ever have been the subject

[15:22] of violence, the object of violence. Um

[15:26] but I hope that people realize again

[15:27] that that although at such a moment they

[15:30] can they might feel it's a good time to

[15:33] pipe down or or not make themselves a

[15:36] target. that actually the much better

[15:38] thing to do is to everyone for everyone

[15:41] uh to be a bit more courageous. For

[15:44] everyone to be a bit stronger in

[15:48] standing up for what they believe to be

[15:50] true, for stating facts that they see

[15:53] before their eyes by uh getting out

[15:56] there, by making their voices heard. You

[16:00] know, I I think often of uh uh after a

[16:04] previous uh assassination a good decade

[16:07] ago and the offices of Charlie Abdo, I

[16:10] remember what my friend Ayan Hers Ali

[16:12] said and perhaps it's as as applicable

[16:14] now as it was then, which is that if

[16:17] there are people uh who seem to be uh in

[16:22] this position that Charlie found himself

[16:25] in of being this object of of hate as as

[16:28] the cartoonists and the editors of

[16:30] Charlie Abdo were a decade ago. I hope

[16:32] that people remember now what Ayan said

[16:35] then which is the best thing is to

[16:38] spread the risk around. Um if people are

[16:43] going to uh believe that it's

[16:45] respectable or reasonable to target

[16:49] conservative voices with violence, let's

[16:51] all speak up a bit more. Uh let's all

[16:54] take a step forward. Uh people don't

[16:56] need to be heroes or or martyrs or

[16:58] anything, but they could be a bit more

[17:00] heroic and uh speak up a bit more and uh

[17:04] be proud a bit more for the things you

[17:07] should feel pride in uh like your

[17:09] nation. And uh if if people do that uh

[17:14] that would be in the midst of this this

[17:17] awful time, it would be a tribute and

[17:20] one which I think Charlie would himself

[17:23] be very proud of. Beautifully

[17:27] said and I think you're so right. Let's

[17:30] step up and spread the risk. Douglas

[17:32] Murray, thank you so much for your time

[17:34] tonight.

[17:35] It's a pleasure.