Jim Spiewak Interviews Four Witnesses to the Charlie Kirk Assassination at Utah Valley University

[00:00] September 10th, a day that was supposed

[00:02] to be about conversation and ideas,

[00:04] turned into a public assassination on

[00:06] the campus of Utah Valley University.

[00:08] Charlie Kirk was gunned down in front of

[00:10] thousands of people who were there to

[00:12] see him during his college campus tour.

[00:14] But these four, who did not know each

[00:16] other before that day, agreed to come

[00:18] back to the campus and sit down with me

[00:20] and talk about what they saw, how they

[00:22] have been coping, and what that incident

[00:25] taught them about America today.

[00:27] >> People were running everywhere shouting.

[00:29] Four strangers forever linked by a

[00:31] single moment they can't unsee at

[00:33] Charlie Kirk's Prove Me Wrong tour.

[00:35] Jason Behunan, Christian Overton, Kurt

[00:38] Liky, and 15-year-old Carter Lloyd all

[00:41] stood somewhere in the crowd on

[00:43] September 10th. Jason is in the red hat

[00:45] in this picture just off to Charlie's

[00:48] right.

[00:48] >> When I was coming into UVU, this is I

[00:51] hadn't been following Charlie Kirk very

[00:52] much at all except for the last few

[00:55] months. I didn't really know much what

[00:57] about Turning Point or anything like

[00:58] that. I was like, "Oh, he still has

[01:00] tickets." I checked online and went to

[01:02] UVU and got the ticket or went to

[01:04] Turning Point, got the tickets to come

[01:05] in and came in about 45 minutes early

[01:08] and worked my way all the way down into

[01:09] the front row.

[01:10] >> A rallyike energy surrounding a speaker

[01:12] others had followed for years.

[01:14] >> I was just to Charlie's right, maybe 30,

[01:17] 40 feet up, and the excitement was

[01:19] there. It was palpable. The energy we

[01:21] were cheering and fist bumping the

[01:24] charisma and the the charm and the

[01:27] wisdom out of this guy is just

[01:28] incredible.

[01:29] >> Christian, where were you in relation to

[01:32] the stage to the tent and what do you

[01:34] remember about it?

[01:35] >> We noticed that there was a little place

[01:36] um where you could stand off from the

[01:38] stage and so I said, "Well, why don't

[01:39] you stay here? I'll run down and talk to

[01:42] the security that were coming in at that

[01:44] time to see if we could stand there."

[01:47] and we got down there and I talked to

[01:49] him and then waved him to come down. So

[01:52] that's where we were at and we waited

[01:54] about a half hour really excited. We

[01:56] kept looking at each other going, "Are

[01:58] you kidding me? We're right here off the

[01:59] stage. This is amazing." And uh about a

[02:02] half hour after is when Charlie arrived.

[02:04] Um he started throwing out hats and then

[02:07] um he had given one to my son personally

[02:10] handed it to his to my son and I

[02:13] remember him taking off his hat and

[02:14] putting the the 47 hat on on his head

[02:18] and man we were just excited.

[02:20] >> Carter, uh you're the youngest uh one

[02:22] here. Tell tell me how old you are.

[02:24] >> I'm 15.

[02:24] >> You're 15. Um why did you decide to go

[02:27] out there that day? My mom and sister,

[02:29] they love politics a lot and like our

[02:32] family is just like very into politics

[02:33] and I I remember my mom telling us in

[02:36] St. George that he was coming to UVU so

[02:38] we thought we all agree with Charlie so

[02:41] like why not go and see him.

[02:43] >> Tell me again where in relation you were

[02:44] to the stage and what you remember when

[02:48] everything started to happen.

[02:49] >> I remember

[02:51] it's crazy. It's crazy when you're when

[02:54] you experience something like so crazy,

[02:57] your mind remembers like simple things

[02:59] that aren't very simple to you anymore.

[03:01] Like I remember turning around to see my

[03:03] mom smiling while recording.

[03:06] Um I remember like seeing a book on the

[03:09] ground just like Charlie's book. Um

[03:14] people chaining USA. Then in a single

[03:18] second at 2:23 p.m., the sound that

[03:21] changed everything.

[03:22] >> When the pop went off, it was

[03:25] almost impossible to process that.

[03:27] What's happening? There's no way this is

[03:29] happening here. And we took a knee. I

[03:31] was there with my son, took a knee

[03:34] immediately. Our first thought was,

[03:35] "This is a mass shooting. There's going

[03:37] to be more shots. So, let's be careful.

[03:39] Let's let's watch out. Can we find the

[03:40] shooter?" And then when we only heard

[03:42] that first shot, we knew, okay, this was

[03:44] targeted specifically for Charlie. So

[03:47] now let's get people out of here. Let's

[03:48] let's let's clear the place. And uh

[03:52] still on our way walking to find my

[03:54] other son who was on campus as well. We

[03:56] were just dumbfounded, shocked, couldn't

[03:58] in total disbelief of what had just

[04:01] happened. about the time that the second

[04:03] um um student um uh came up to the the

[04:08] mic um we just moments after heard heard

[04:14] the shot. The shot came from the left

[04:16] side and I looked over just like that

[04:20] and I thought, "Wow, isn't that funny?

[04:22] Somebody lit off a firework." That's

[04:24] really what it sounded like, like a

[04:26] somebody just lit a firework. and I went

[04:28] right back to look at Charlie and that's

[04:30] where I saw the the hole in his neck and

[04:32] I immediately at that point grabbed my

[04:34] son and took him down

[04:37] um you know uh much like her just said I

[04:40] mean we didn't know if there's going to

[04:42] be shots to follow or what um and uh at

[04:46] that point you know it was all a matter

[04:48] of how do we get out of here you know

[04:51] what's the safest way and obviously

[04:53] there was a lot of people trying to do

[04:55] the same so

[04:56] >> do you replay that moment in time. Have

[04:59] you replayed it in your mind

[05:00] >> in the most unexpected times? Which is

[05:03] so odd because I like to think that I'm

[05:06] pretty resilient. Um, however, it does

[05:11] it does resurface in unexpected times

[05:13] that that is played out.

[05:16] >> I didn't know what to think. I actually

[05:17] kind of just went numb at the point. I

[05:19] didn't know what was going on. Just

[05:20] everybody started yelling and screaming.

[05:22] I was numb. I was very confused. Very,

[05:24] very confused. I didn't know what had

[05:26] happened. I had heard shots before, but

[05:28] it just didn't seem like this was the,

[05:30] you know, the place that something like

[05:32] that would happen.

[05:33] >> So, there's a lot of cheering going on

[05:34] and then this gunshot rings out. Then,

[05:37] what do you remember about the next few

[05:40] moments? I looked to my left and

[05:43] like he said like he thought it was a

[05:45] firework at me and like my family just

[05:49] said we were waiting for like confetti

[05:50] to pop out until um I look at Charlie

[05:55] and his face is like

[05:57] it's just just the life goes out of his

[06:00] eyes.

[06:02] Um

[06:05] I remember falling to the ground.

[06:08] I'm sorry.

[06:12] And I see my mom's face as she's like

[06:15] hyperventilating.

[06:18] When I see my older sister Jordan, I'm

[06:23] her face in absolute shock.

[06:27] Um

[06:30] I remember a man jumped on top of my

[06:34] sister's yelling, "Stay down."

[06:37] And then when I looked back to where

[06:39] Charlie was, I see his body getting

[06:41] carried out, carried out, covered in

[06:43] blood.

[06:45] And you just feel

[06:47] absolute terror, like

[06:51] I just remember thinking like, am I

[06:54] going to die or are they going to keep

[06:57] on shooting?

[06:58] >> The cheers collapsed into chaos. Kurt is

[07:01] a combat veteran and former law

[07:02] enforcement officer. Did you actually

[07:04] see Charlie when he was hit? Did you see

[07:07] it?

[07:08] >> We did. We saw Charlie. And um I'm a

[07:11] former police, former military. I'm a

[07:13] combat veteran. And I I knew as soon as

[07:15] he got hit, he was dead. And when they

[07:17] said on the news that they were trying

[07:18] to um to help him. I'm was praying to

[07:22] God that they could come up with a

[07:24] miracle. God can do miracles. But when

[07:26] he when I saw him get hit, I knew he was

[07:29] gone. He was dead on on impact. One of

[07:32] Kurt's sons was on the other side of

[07:34] campus.

[07:34] >> It was chaos. It was chaos. I was still

[07:36] processing. I called his wrong phone

[07:38] number like 18 times and he wasn't

[07:40] answering. So then I started freaking

[07:42] out. Um but we were able to connect.

[07:44] People were running everywhere shouting.

[07:46] >> As police locked down campus, Kurt and

[07:48] his two sons began helping others.

[07:51] >> Mr. Rogers says, "Try to find those who

[07:53] are helping in a in a disaster like

[07:55] this." So we tried to find people we

[07:57] could help. people who were crying,

[07:59] tried to console them, tried to get

[08:00] people to get rides, call their mom. Um,

[08:04] and then once we were together, me and

[08:06] my sons, we called their mama and made

[08:08] sure we got off campus before everything

[08:10] was locked down.

[08:11] >> All four witnesses left with images that

[08:14] still won't fade. And the process of

[08:16] healing has been messy and personal.

[08:18] >> How have you been coping and getting

[08:20] through through this?

[08:22] >> The first couple weeks couldn't sleep.

[08:24] up till 2 am trying to correct people

[08:27] online who were saying stupid things

[08:29] about what was going on and what they

[08:30] saw and what they know about UVU and

[08:32] like you don't understand this is my

[08:33] school this is my kid's school so I

[08:35] thought that was my mission just to

[08:37] correct every on the internet it's

[08:38] too many but like Christian said the

[08:41] only path forward is is healing and

[08:43] helping

[08:44] >> Christian started a Facebook support

[08:45] group for anyone who was there to join

[08:48] >> tell me about the group and why you

[08:49] started it and has that been helping you

[08:51] cope

[08:52] >> absolutely it has um I knew that

[08:56] um my path to healing even immediately

[09:00] after what I had witnessed

[09:02] uh would be to attempt to help others,

[09:06] try to process and try to be there as a

[09:08] support um while I was trying to figure

[09:11] out how I was going to come to grips

[09:12] with dealing it on my own terms. And so

[09:15] from a therapy standpoint, I think that

[09:18] has helped me uh quite quite a lot.

[09:21] >> How about your son? Uh tell me how how

[09:23] old your son is. He was here as well on

[09:25] that day. Um how is he doing and how are

[09:28] you helping him?

[09:29] >> Um we haven't had a lot of discussion.

[09:31] Um I've given him his space. We've um

[09:35] had him in therapy as well. He's going

[09:38] to have to and he's obviously knows that

[09:41] the I'm here for him when he's ready to

[09:45] talk when that time becomes, you know,

[09:48] apparent for him. But right now it's

[09:51] it's a tough thing to deal with is you

[09:54] know.

[09:54] >> Is it fair to say that more than a month

[09:56] later um you're still kind of figuring

[10:00] out how you're going to

[10:01] >> absolutely

[10:02] >> deal with this?

[10:02] >> Yeah. No question. No question.

[10:03] >> And your son too.

[10:04] >> And him as well. Yeah.

[10:06] >> Mhm. And it has this event changed you

[10:08] and your family?

[10:09] >> Without a doubt. Absolutely. I I was

[10:12] telling making the comment earlier. I I

[10:14] like to think that I'm pretty resilient,

[10:16] but uh it seems that at some of the

[10:18] least least expected times is it will

[10:21] resurface and catch you by surprise. I

[10:24] kind of buried it down. Um I'm still

[10:27] processing it. I not ever got over it.

[10:29] It's probably something I will never get

[10:31] over. Um I think about the event every

[10:34] time I drive by UV. Um I try not to look

[10:38] at the old pictures that I have on my

[10:39] phone of the videos of that day and

[10:41] stuff like that. and I went home and

[10:42] I've just kind of buried it down. I

[10:44] never really talked about it to anybody

[10:46] except for, you know, Christian here and

[10:49] my wife and that was it. Um, just I

[10:52] can't look at UVU anymore. You know,

[10:55] it's just it's hard to look at UVU as

[10:56] you're driving down cuz I witnessed

[10:58] something that was tragic. It's

[11:02] it's hard to think about it.

[11:05] >> Carter, how have you been processing

[11:07] this traumatic thing that happened

[11:10] really in front of you all? in person,

[11:12] but in front of the world, too. Everyone

[11:14] saw the video. How have you been

[11:16] processing it?

[11:17] >> It was hard the first two weeks. Um,

[11:20] it was really hard. I I still think

[11:22] about it to this day. Sometimes it's the

[11:25] first thing I think about in the morning

[11:27] or like if there's a loud sound in like

[11:29] my classroom that I don't do good with

[11:32] those. um proc I've been

[11:37] processing is just really hard cuz

[11:40] normal things that were normal to you

[11:41] aren't very normal anymore. Like

[11:43] sometimes I I see like a UVU sign that I

[11:48] just think of the shooting or

[11:51] I was talking to my mom like about this

[11:54] like how

[11:56] like we cannot like we can't do

[11:58] fireworks because that just brings us

[12:00] back and just

[12:04] it it was hard processing it.

[12:05] >> Carter, still in high school says

[12:07] finding purpose has been its own kind of

[12:09] therapy. She helped start a Turning

[12:11] Point USA chapter at her school.

[12:13] >> It united us as students as kids of the

[12:16] country like what Charlie wanted us to

[12:18] do. We have PE we've had more people

[12:22] join the club and we're just really

[12:24] excited because I see the patriotism

[12:28] and the passion in the people in the

[12:32] club.

[12:32] >> You could be doing anything, you know.

[12:35] Why do you what do you get out of being

[12:38] involved in this chapter for you

[12:40] personally?

[12:41] >> I think it's therapeutic. I think it's a

[12:44] lot better than sitting on the couch and

[12:46] scrolling on TikTok or and and it's just

[12:50] nice seeing good in the world. It's

[12:53] something that I need to see because

[12:56] what I saw was was not good.

[12:58] >> Processing the shooting has also meant

[13:00] reckoning with what justice should look

[13:02] like. Do you think death penalty is

[13:05] justified if convicted? What What's your

[13:07] take on on this being a death penalty

[13:09] case here in Utah?

[13:10] >> Yeah, I align with Charlie on the death

[13:12] penalty. The death penalty really is

[13:14] about valuing life. For those who don't

[13:16] value life enough to take someone else's

[13:18] life, there needs to be the consequence

[13:20] for that. So the death penalty, I think,

[13:22] is the right decision. I used to work

[13:24] for Department of Corrections, so I

[13:27] worked death row and I've seen these

[13:29] people and I've seen people that have

[13:31] been sentenced to death and what bugs me

[13:33] the most is that they get convicted and

[13:35] sentenced to a death penalty and then

[13:37] there's years they sit and most of them

[13:40] just you know until last year I believe

[13:43] they just expire on you know of natural

[13:46] causes before they see the penalty. It's

[13:49] hard because

[13:51] it's harsh, but also you do need

[13:54] justice. Um,

[13:57] I think I think it's okay for the death

[14:00] penalty because it not only was just

[14:03] killing Charlie, but it was attack on

[14:05] Americans people's like the American

[14:07] people's rights and speech. And just to

[14:10] think that we were killed just about

[14:12] speaking on our opinion is a very

[14:15] dangerous and scary thing. So I think

[14:19] it's a good balance. Like too much

[14:21] justice is bad and too much mercy we

[14:25] won't have justice. So we just need a

[14:26] good balance.

[14:28] >> Even with everything they've seen, none

[14:30] of them want fear to win.

[14:31] >> This isn't going to detour me because

[14:33] good will always outweigh evil in the

[14:35] world. And we can't live our can't we

[14:37] can't uh live in fear. When you think

[14:40] about that that day, what emotion wins

[14:44] out for you now as you sit here today?

[14:46] Hope. Hope for a better tomorrow. Hope

[14:50] for uh a greater cause to to prevail. Um

[14:54] for more love, for more coming together

[14:57] in unity.

[14:58] >> I'm still reeling from the the deep deep

[15:00] loss, but choosing hope like Christian,

[15:03] it's the only way forward.

[15:05] >> Has your feelings since that day

[15:07] changed? you know, sort of what emotion

[15:09] is winning out for you right now.

[15:11] >> I wish I had more hope than fear right

[15:14] now. I definitely I definitely am living

[15:17] in fear, but I want to change that. I

[15:19] definitely want to take my next steps in

[15:21] faith. Um,

[15:23] but seeing how people coming together to

[15:28] support and comfort us and other people

[15:31] definitely gives me hope. I hope we

[15:33] could all heal from this and come

[15:34] together and for the greater good for

[15:37] the United States to move forward. I

[15:40] just think we should all get behind one

[15:42] another and

[15:44] keep moving forward.

[15:45] >> For someone that was not there that day,

[15:47] you were there that day. What do you

[15:49] think? What What do you tell that person

[15:51] that wasn't there?

[15:51] >> For somebody who was there, life is

[15:53] fragile. Um it's a meaningless

[15:58] assassination that h that happened

[16:00] unfortunately.

[16:02] Um,

[16:04] but we should still have those open

[16:06] debates. Doesn't matter if it's politics

[16:08] or about school or whatever, but have

[16:09] open debates. If you have a friend who's

[16:11] a liberal or a Republican or whatever,

[16:14] who cares? Have that open discussion

[16:17] with them. You know, see what their

[16:18] thoughts are. If they don't agree with

[16:20] you, move on and go fishing. Who cares?

[16:22] >> If you're being honest, did you feel

[16:24] that way before September 10th?

[16:26] >> Oh,

[16:28] yes and no. I really don't care what's

[16:31] going on in the world right now except

[16:32] in my little bubble and my, you know, my

[16:35] wife, my family and stuff. I don't care

[16:38] what's going on. Um, but this has opened

[16:40] my eyes to there's a lot more going on

[16:41] than

[16:43] what I actually see. And so it's kind of

[16:45] opened my eyes to what's going on in the

[16:47] world right now. You know, we

[16:48] unfortunately we can't have that debate

[16:51] without, you know, a threat of violence

[16:52] somewhere coming from somewhere. And I

[16:54] was I'm kind of hoping that we can move

[16:56] on and heal from this and have that open

[16:59] discussion in front of people without

[17:00] the fear of violence of some sort.

[17:02] >> To have courage to stand up for what's

[17:04] right and also

[17:07] learn how to speak to people who you may

[17:09] not agree with. I I think we think in

[17:12] America that if I'm Republican, I can't

[17:15] be friends with a Democrat. I think we

[17:17] need to learn how to debate and talk to

[17:19] each other respectfully. What do you

[17:20] tell all those people out there that

[17:22] weren't at that event?

[17:25] How it has impacted you or changed you

[17:27] in any way?

[17:28] >> How much our world has changed and how

[17:30] we should pay more attention to what's

[17:32] happening instead of caring about stupid

[17:34] things.

[17:36] >> Um,

[17:38] >> that's hard to do though, isn't it? It's

[17:40] so easy to just kind of revert back to

[17:41] the mean

[17:43] >> and to maybe say the thing that we

[17:45] shouldn't say.

[17:46] >> Um, how do we do that? getting off your

[17:49] phone, going joining clubs. I'm starting

[17:52] to join clubs and I used to think that

[17:53] was weird, but no, I've deleted TikTok

[17:57] and I think it's the most stupidest app

[17:59] ever. Like, experience the world, real

[18:01] world, real world, and talk to people

[18:05] face to face and I want to talk to

[18:08] people more.

[18:09] >> What do you say to someone that doesn't

[18:10] agree with your point of view on

[18:13] politics or the world? Um

[18:17] what what do you say to that person

[18:18] today?

[18:19] >> Charlie set a good example of asking

[18:21] questions. And I think a lot of times if

[18:22] you ask questions and help them uh find

[18:25] out for themselves what they believe or

[18:27] where there's a mismatch in their words

[18:30] and their actions, I think they can get

[18:32] to the bottom of it. So instead of

[18:34] criticizing or just demanding that

[18:36] you're right, asking good questions and

[18:38] getting more educated.

[18:39] >> It shouldn't matter. We all are human.

[18:42] We all have our interests in life. We

[18:45] all strive for certain things and goals

[18:47] that are special to us in as an

[18:50] individual. And why does that make him a

[18:52] little bit different? Because he sees

[18:53] the world a little bit different than

[18:54] me. You know, I think we should all just

[18:58] come together and move on.

[19:00] >> What do you say to someone that doesn't

[19:01] agree with you today?

[19:03] um that they're

[19:06] um

[19:08] I've always believed that if you

[19:10] approach anyone or any discussion from a

[19:13] place from your heart, place of love,

[19:15] that regardless of the message it gets

[19:18] through or whatever you're disagreeing

[19:19] or agreeing on, they know you care.

[19:21] >> What do you tell someone that doesn't

[19:24] see things the way exactly you do?

[19:26] >> Ask them genuine questions just like why

[19:29] and like what made you believe that? and

[19:33] I hear them out instead of getting mad

[19:35] or just going crazy on them. I treat

[19:39] them like a normal human being. I I

[19:42] treat them as my friend. And they're no

[19:44] different from me. We're all just trying

[19:45] to get through this life and stay

[19:48] strong. I have so many friends that have

[19:51] different beliefs in me and religion and

[19:53] politics, but I treat them exactly how

[19:57] I'd want to be treated. For those who

[19:59] were there, September 10th will always

[20:01] be the day a debate turned into a crime

[20:03] scene and a reminder for them of how

[20:05] quickly conversation turned into

[20:07] violence. They all saw the exact same

[20:09] thing, but are processing it very, very

[20:12] differently. As they walked away from

[20:14] this, the event changed them. But they

[20:16] also say they agree on one thing. They

[20:18] still believe in the power of

[20:20] conversation. I'm Jim Spew. Thank you

[20:23] for watching this YouTube