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You know, spring is here and the warm weather makes me want to get outside for some quality time playing basketball and meeting up with friends. The last thing I want to do in the little free time I have is worry about making food. Luckily, I found Factor with their nutritious 2-minute meals. Eating well has never been this easy. You just heat up and enjoy. Try it out yourself. Get started at factormeals.com/random50 off and use code random50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. So, you don't think any people are like born quote unquote in the wrong body? No, I I don't agree. I think people might think they are There's a book of the Bible I think you'd love. What? Song of Solomon. Song of Solomon. Crossby souls in Nash. Song of Solomon's all about sex. Charlie Kirk here. I am here. Kirk reporting for duty. That's what they call me. How are you? Nice to meet you. Thanks for having us. Us? Well, or me. Is there someone with you? No. Thanks for having me. You're not expecting trouble, are you? Not quite. You travel with security, unfortunately. You do? Yeah. Wow. Like what kind? You know, security. Well, I'm sorry that you have to do that, but that's the price of fame. And boy, you're you I mean, man, you're everywhere. You're the new it boy podcast. No, it's true. We we have different jihadis that want to kill me. The purple-haired jihadis, the the woke guys. Well, they want they kill me. They want to kill me just as bad. Probably. Oh, they really do. No, you you've been very outspoken on the woke stuff big time. Oh, yes. I mean, and and they just the way within a religion they hate their own apostates more. I would say they hate me more because I'm supposed to like get on the short bus to crazy town with them and I won't. And yet I'm still a liberal and still like you know I mean we probably could argue all day about Donald Trump and what he's doing which I'm not down with. But you know uh the it's always the people who are closest who think oh gosh you shouldn't have you're a traitor somehow if we don't go. Is it because they thought you were one of them and that I am one of them. They're not one of me. I'm okay. It's the liberals of two of So, they've left you, not you left. Well, I I feel like there's liberal and woke are two completely different things. It was a theme of my last standup special that I just did a few months ago. And it's basically I mean, it wasn't the whole special of course, but it was a large part of it devoted to that to proving that case that you know what liberals believe woke is something completely different. It's very often the opposite of it. You know, liberalism is let's live in a color-blind society. That's the goal. Woke's goal is we see race everywhere. Obsession. Yes. Okay. So, that's not liberal. You you changed. Liberal is there a two-state solution. Woke is river to the sea. Okay. Those are So, just don't take my word and say you're that. You took this and took it to you got off the F train, you fell asleep, and you got all the 20 stops too far. And don't blame me for that. drink? No, I'm good. Thank you. You don't drink? No. Or smoke pot? No. And you're married and super Christian. We're going to get along great. No, we're This is This is going to just be perfect. But can I just ask because I want to find out a lot about you because you're you're obviously a super bright guy, but you do think that I have the right to live completely opposite than you do. I think you you can get as drunk as you'd like and you're you're that kind of an American, right? You're not not you're not forcing your opinions as I I'm I'm not here to say you can't. What do you mean? No. Okay. So, you think pot should be legal? That's that's a complicated I I have a very unpopular view on pot. You know, can I tell you my case on pot? Please do. It's not the depression that it might be causing or the fact that might be hurting kids' brains. It's it's the smell. It's the stench that drives me crazy. Yeah. It's not hurting their brains. I mean, kids shouldn't do it. Of course, kids shouldn't. It It definitely hurt. didn't hurt my brain. But let me ask, do you think that more more teenagers are doing pot today or that before legalization or after legalization? Do you think usage rates are going up or down? I don't know the answer. Oh, you'll be fascinated by this because, you know, I'm not married, so I go out, so sometimes I'm out with like people that were a great deal younger than me. I don't know how they get in my group, but they do. And um so I've been to sometimes parties like the Hollywood parties. And this is probably not most of America exactly this way, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's that different. And first of all, in this town, it's all run by like the Nepo babies. The Nepo babies, the trust fund kids is all these little 22-y old boys. The JB Pritzkar types. Well, I'm kid. No, no, I'm sure I I I know who you mean. The governor of Illinois. He inherited the Hyatt. Sure. You know that baby. We we've invented Nepo baby out here. Okay. But yes, it's everywhere now, even on the Lakers. Um, hey, that that's that's real privilege there. You know, you got some privilege if you can get Well, okay. I don't want I I want LeBron mad at me like he is at uh my friend Stephen A. But I mean that is I you know but uh the point is that when you go out to these I've been to these parties where like it's a bunch of 22-year-old kids and none of them are smoking pot. Why? They're on real drugs. Pot's so like my generation. It's like I couldn't find pot at one of these parties. I was the only they were asking me for it. The few kids that want they're all they take this this they've got psychedelics mushrooms LSD. Okay. Oh, ketamine, whatever. Ketamine that that has some medicinal property, but not at a party. They're all It's all ingested before they even leave the house. So, that's where the good news parents, your kids aren't on pot. Yeah. But they're they're on way worse. I think they're on a big big trip. So, but do you think that since we've legalized less teenagers are doing like 13, 14, 15 year olds? Because that was always the argument, right? If we legalize it, less kids would do it. I don't know what 14-year-olds are doing. No, I don't know the answer. I just That's my story and I'm sticking to it. But we can agree that kids should agree. Totally. But we also should be able to agree that we shouldn't uh force adults to organize their lives around what kids might get into. That's a good argument. I mean, do you think that it's I mean, you're not against porn, are you? Well, I actually once struggled with porn. Thankfully, I'm free of that. But I mean, how can you struggle with it? I mean meaning so easy. Well, you could you could grow addicted to it. I mean it can I know I was kidding. No, but no. I mean yeah I don't have that that issue anymore thankfully. But I would I would ask the question though like do you think since the legalization of marijuana in LA it's made it a better or worse place to live or just it hasn't changed at all? It certainly hasn't changed my life. Okay. I grow it right outside here. Do you think this Do you think the quality of life has gone up or down? Well, I I don't know. But that's not really the relevant question, is it? Even if there is a dilitterious effect, there is too many things we do and we would not use that as a reason to prescribe our basic freedoms. Should people I mean be able to do drugs should people outside like on the street or no definitely not on the street. Okay. So, so there are some limits. Of course there are limits. Yes. and maybe of certain drugs or certain drugs should be by prescription uh as we do with with pharmaceutical drugs, you know, but based but certainly pot is more as more benign than alcohol. I mean, I could give you the stats on that. We all know that. Um is is it health food? No. I I I'm not crazy like some of my hippie friends are compla trying to portray it as something that's actually good for your lungs, but I I don't think it's well, it's a trade-off. When you're an adult, you have the right to make tradeoffs. Tradeoffs is this is the is the essence of life. I'm going to have this piece of cake tonight and be a little fatter tomorrow or I'm not going to do that and feel better tomorrow. And we all make those choices on a daily basis with everything. Yes. Have I probably cut off some years of my life. Maybe with pot. Who knows? I may have increased them because it helped me. Uh it made me certainly made me richer. It made me better at my job, better at writing, better at a lot of things I like to do. So, you know, I might be living in a two-bedroom apartment in Van N if it wasn't for potted probably going to live longer here. or who knows how successful you could have been without it. That's true, too. That is true, too. Do you Do you think there's any merit to the argument that the pot is has more THC and is more intense than it was 30, 40 years ago? It's so I don't know. I I hear these things and Oh, I hear those things, too. And I'm I'm sure that's true because once it became as commercialized as it has, of course, you're going you're going to try to maximize the potency of it. um just because the customer comes back just like a restaurant is not interested in your health. They're interested in making the food selling more product delicious as they can come back to that restaurant. So, but it's so hard for me to tell you because I've been smoking for 50 years and I'm different. Who knows what I was thinking? I mean, I remember when I first smoked, we would just sit in the car and laugh at nothing for an hour. That doesn't happen anymore. So, I'm my guess is the pot is stronger, but my resistance is weaker. Okay. Uh anyway, it's you know, I I'm people think I'm some sort of giant pthead. I've always been very circumspect about my pot smoking. I mean, I don't smoke every day. Um the most I smoke is right here once a week. I I like to be in party mode when I'm with someone I'm getting to know. I I This is one of the joys of my life. Mh. Um, and you know, I understand that it doesn't connect with some people or makes some people paranoid or something, but other people it's just I mean, you know, some people like a scotch and some people like blah blah blah and some people like complete sobriety. If if that's your if that's your thing, that's fine. But to me, the most interesting place I can ever travel is inside my own mind. And drugs do help you get there. Is there do you think all all hard drugs should be illegal? Like heroin? Illegal? No. I mean, well, heroin, is there any uses for it? I mean, like for what San Francisco did, they they pseudo legalized it, right? I mean, they said, "Hey, we're going to have make it easier for you to do heroin." No, we shouldn't make it easier. That's crazy. They had drug injection sites basically, right? So, no, I know, but that's that was a public policy position of Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco. That's the lowlying fruit for you right now. No, that's right. That's a question. No, but but isn't it I want to create it's the lowlying fruit who it's like no sure it's a right boundary. I want to create a boundary and you're right, you know, I mean again I'm I'm for picking that fruit, too. It's silly to help drug addicts be drug addicts and keep them on the street. It's stupid to keep homeless on the street. Oh, I totally agree. There's another another way liberals are different than the woke. The liberal thing for forever was for compassion's sake, get them off the street. That's not the woke version. Their version is they're an endangered species. Don't touch them in their natural habitat living under a defecate. Let them do whatever they want. It's their thing. And you know, I mean, there should be nothing more basic than a government claiming the streets. The streets are for the citizens. They're it's not to live in. Build a barracks. I mean, why are these things Maybe you can answer. Why are these kind of things so difficult? You think such common sense. Build a [ __ ] barracks. I know homeless people say they don't want to live there. You don't have a choice. Oh, we'll get robbed there. Higher security. It's pennies on the dollar. Why? Why is it so difficult? I feel like I with no real knowledge of this field could do it. Could just if I had people who would carry out my I would say, "Okay, get me specs. I want to see what where a place we could build it. I want to see what the barracks looks like. I want to see who works there. Is it really?" And the toilets, whatever. And somebody must be a Mitt Romney, somebody who did the Olympics, somebody who could come in and we know how to clean up the streets. I mean, Gavin Newsome cleaned up the streets of San Francisco and Gi Ping showed up. I mean, it's just an act of the will. They they don't want to do it, right? Like when they get the horrors off the street when when the mayor is like doing one of those cleanup uh or like when the MLB All-Star game goes to Seattle, all of a sudden it's America's cleanest city, right? So, you're saying if we can do it that one day. I'm saying it's an act of the will. It's all that it is. And it look left woke I won't even say leftwing woke philosophy is they believe they don't really believe in private property and at its core why shouldn't someone be able to defecate on the side of the street who are you to judge well that's not woke yes maybe I'm saying woke not even liberal right I'm making that distinction which I think a fair distinction that's another reason another one we can add to the list of woke is not liberal and I think left versus liberal or woke versus liberal is an important distinction I will say what makes you different is few liberals stand up to the woke. That is ve few liberals are willing to stand up to woke. Absolutely. And few conservatives stand up to Trump. Fair enough. I mean, you can stand up or disagree, but I guess you could say the question is Trump. Woke is an ideology. Is Trump an ideology? I mean, he's a person. MAGA is an ideology. But I mean, we can I disagree with Trump on a lot of stuff. I mean, I don't think we should go to war with Iran. I think that'd be a big mistake. Also, when you get to we're going to send homegrown American citizens to foreign prisons. Oh, so the thing he said, you mean homegrown to to Blly Americans? No. And if he were to do that, I wouldn't support it. Great. But I don't I think that is a oneliner that he gave to Boulli. I think that is You met the man. Yes. I Do you think he actually believes that like he would do that? It's worse if he does or would. It's still horrible that an American president would say that. Look me in the eye and tell me if Obama had said that, what your reaction would be. Wouldn't Wouldn't like it. Wouldn't like it. I think it would be a little more vitriolic than that. I I we we would be we'd be apoplelectic. Okay. I'm just I'm finding out how honest you are, Charlie. And so far you I think you're doing good. And I hope I'm doing good with you because if we don't have the honesty, we can't really, you know, look, but to be to also to be fair to the whole, you know, topic in general, the outrage around deportations, as we've seen, you know, this these last couple of, you know, last couple of weeks is like the American people voted for it. It's perfectly legal. Well, they didn't vote for vote for nasty people without any I mean the So, you mean that Maryland case is what you're talking about, right? the guy who they're trying who they the MS-13 member. Well, there's no evidence that he's they don't they did not present evidence. I mean, I don't really want to get into the weeds on this one because I got to do it on my show Friday, but and but the Supreme Court I guess we have to get into the weeds there. You know, there is there's there's even new evidence in the last couple of hours that I don't you you you you lead the conversation. You tell me how deep you want to go on it. None. Okay. I mean, but uh I hope that if it if it comes to light, let put let me button it up this way. I hope that if it does come to light that there really is no evidence that this guy was a gang member that he got swept up, which is very understandable that when you do a sweep, when you're doing big things, yes, there's nothing is going to go perfect, but if it does come to light, I would hope that some Republicans have the spine to say, "Yeah, that's not right. That this guy should not be there." I mean, the Bill of Rights, it's pretty clear that you can't just disappear people without any sort of trial. Well, uh, but sorry to interrupt. And and and deportation is is not the same thing as sending someone to a prison, but you are allowed to deport under the Alien Inv enemies act. Correct. Someone who is part of a a recognized terrorist organization, which MS-13 is okay. pretty close to a terrorist organization. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know, you're you're bending all these words. He's not an American citizen. We got to acknowledge that. No, absolutely not. So, that's important. But he wasn't here illegally either. He was illegally. A Maryland man. As long as we're not talking about two different cases. We're talking about Garcia. Garcia. Yes. He was an illegal immigrant to the country. I thought he was waiting for asylum. You could be illegal waiting for asylum. I see. So, we Okay. So, they could deport him. That's right. Yes. But we never did it. But to a prison, it's an edge case. I acknowledge it's on the edge. Okay, good. No, but the edge is so there's three ways you can deport people. Could be the alien enemies act of 1798. It can be used only three times. That's fine. But hey, look, you quote the First Amendment all the time. That's from 1787, right? So old things are are important. I'm just saying that's been used that's been used more than three times. Fair enough. But just cuz things are old doesn't mean and I'm not saying you're you're using that talking point, but some people are trying to invalidate it just cuz it's old. It's also expedited release. They're trying to invalidate because it doesn't really apply to this that it's stretching. I mean, how is MS-13 not a terrorist organization? I mean, yeah, you can. Yeah, you can make or trend aragua. I mean, well, I mean organized because ter because terrorism really is a political movement. It's it's it's it's the it means terrorizing the civilian population to achieve a political goal. These guys just want to grab your locket. You know, this is more than that. Oh, a lot more than that. Look, I've said that uh all this stuff I don't like about Trump. I did it in my piece the other week when I was talking about the meeting at the White House that no, he was tweeting about me. I've never liked anything. No, check the tape. There are things I like. And one thing I liked was that the police are have their morale back maybe now. And you know, when you live in a city, it's not a good thing when the police lose their morale because they feel like they've been painted with a broad brush, which they were after 2020, you know, and they're like, "Okay, yeah." And I've been very critical of the cops when I think they did bad things. But do I think this is it's a racist, you know, attack squad? It's not. There's issues. There's always issues in everything organization. And you know, when when you insult the cops, they have a way of kind of brooding about it. And it's just not a good place to be in when you're when you're a city dweller. And so, you know, I don't want to be killed by a gang member because they do random killings, you know, just to as gang initiation so they can get the [ __ ] teardrop under their eye. Okay. I I don't want to be someone's teardrop tattoo, you know, rando out to dinner. So, I get it. You know, I mean, these are the things that lost the Democrats the election 100%. You know, you got to take care of this [ __ ] I was just And there's real Americans that die. I mean, Rachel Morren, Lake and Riley, there's real I mean, Joselyn, um, well, probably not at greater rates than are killed by regular Americans. That's debated, but let's just put that aside. They shouldn't be here. And so, none of those murders should happen, right? And so, anyway, back to the core question. Does the president have the ability to remove illegals that have come here under an enemy gang? Of course, he does. Yeah, he has he has the power given to him by that law. Hey, do you want a little more random in your life? Go to your online merch store at club random.com and get some Clubr Random merch. We've got great fitting premium hoodies, t-shirts, and ringers. All super soft and printed with high quality inks. We've also got stuff to elevate your bar with club random mugs, tumblers, and decanters for your spirit of choice or for sparkling water like me. Then you can add your jing drops and everyone can ask you what you're dosing yourself with. It's the gift that keeps on giving. And this could be fun or a complete nightmare. If you have a great idea for something you'd like to see in our merch store, send us a comment and the best idea will be made. All our merch is available exclusively at club random.com. While you're there, you can catch up on all our recent episodes and then head over to the merch store to pick up some swag and bring some random home. Once again, that's club random.com. Club Random is brought to you by the audio marketing gurus at Radioactive Media. Congratulations, you survived 2024 and the start of 2025. Not easy. As a business owner or CMO, what steps are you taking to ensure your business survives and thrives with something very reliable? 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Discover how audio marketing can surpass your current strategies with new and innovative ways that sound better. Go to radioactive media.com or text random to 511511. Text random to 511511 today. Message and data rates may apply. I've been on TV a long time and have gone through my fair share of hiring people. I have a team around me that helps me vet and hire the right people, which I pride myself on. But most employers don't have that support and thus make costly mistakes in hiring the right people. If you're an employer who can relate, I have one question for you. Have you tried Zip Recruiter? Now, Zip Recruiter just held a recent survey which found that 76% of employers were planning to expand their headcount for 2025. That's a lot of time spent hiring. If you're one of these employers who's ramping up hiring this year, don't miss out on this advice. Add Zip Recruiters latest feature, Zip Intro, to your hiring plan. 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I'm I'm like the regular guy who just wants to know. He's curious about this person. So, I don't know. So, I ask the questions that this person would ask. You, Charlie Kirk. You're 31 years old. You're Jewish, right? No. Yeah, that's Muslim, actually. Um, you're married. Yes, sir. How long have you been married? Um, it will be four years in May. Wow. And kids? Two kids. Yeah. Two kids already. Yeah. Well, we got to work. Now, Charlie, it shouldn't be work. That's all I'm gonna say. I'm kidding. I know. It's an enjoyable work. It's um Okay, we got to the fun, I should say. And and and you're uh going to have more. God willing. Yeah. God willing. Right. Right. And you know, we don't see eye to eye on the religion thing. You know, someone told me that. I got I got to tell you, you should see my movie religion. I actually saw it. Oh, really? And to your credit, what you did on Islam was awesome. The other one's not so much. That's correct, buddy. Secondly, so if you just isolate the Islamic part, but it was funny. Secondly, to your credit, you treated woke like a religion. Yes. And you criticized them with the same intensity and ferocity you did. And that does you deserve a lot of credit for that. Thank you. No, I mean that because you looked at it as this has catechism. It has religious type undercurrents. It has almost a metaphysical presence to itself. And so you're you're an equal opportunity. Well, I mean, yeah. And it's funny because the director of Religulous, Larry Charles, and I had dinner about a year ago and I suggested and of course it went nowhere cuz we're both too old to like really act on it. But I said people keep asking me and I'm sure him also to do religious too but they when they say it they think we're going to oh now we're going to go to India and make fun of the Hindus. I'm like I'm not doing that. Okay. I'm not going to India and the Hindus aren't that funny. Okay. We did it. We it was a the movie did great and we we love that it stands the test of time and people keep always keep coming up to me and seeing it. Movies are amazing that way. But I said somebody gave me a great idea. Why don't we do religionist too, but the religion is wokeness? And then that's what I was suggested. And I said, "Yeah, but then you'd have to do the right side of it, too, because that's also a religion. Christian nationalism. I mean, come on. Your boys, some of the people I think you're uh fond of, they mix religion and politics in a way that I think is not according to the Constitution." But I have to tell you and give you a lot of credit. I saw a video of yours where you were talking about how Christy the original documents were, which is, you know, I mean, my view is that the founding fathers, we know a number of them were deists mostly that was their religion. But you did and you boy, you have your facts down. I mean, you can spiel when you get on a subject like that. You'd really do. Um, and I trust you. You know, I'm going by what you, but you know that they were a little Christier than I thought. You know, and I'm always happy to learn new information. And if it doesn't satisfy people that I don't stay exactly where I am, it satisfies the people who are actually my fans who always want me to do that to be like, oh, if I take in new information. And I mean, that's why, you know, the the far-left hates me because I went to the White House and said, "Well, privately Trump's different and and good for you for saying that." Yeah. And I didn't give an inch on anything I believe. I confronted him on things that I think, you know, he maybe never hears from anybody else, but that's not good enough for them because, you know, they had to. But no, if you take in new information, just tell me. And so I do think after listening to your spiel that yes, they were a little more into Jesus than I thought. I mean, I know Jefferson wrote that Bible and took all he heavily edited it. Took all the miracles out. He took all the the religiosity out of it and just made him a a moral teacher, a moral philosopher. Now, you have to admit that's not exactly the act of a Christy person. No, but at least he acknowledged that there was something profound there. Got to give him credit for that. I could even acknowledge that. Okay, that's good. I'm glad to hear. Well, as a Jesus as a philosopher was a true revolutionary. I mean, when he said the meek shall inherit the earth, I think the response, blessed are the peacemakers, right? Yeah. But the idea that um it gets good in the next life was fairly I think revolutionary and the fact that you know if you're a good person in this life there's a much greater this is just the pregame. You want the afterparty and the afterparty is just going to be [ __ ] awesome. You're up there with me and my dad, God, and it's just, you know, what do you think create would create a better society or better action? People that think that there isn't there is an afterlife based on how you act or people that think there isn't one. That's a great question because it certainly can turn people either way. It can make you fly planes into a building. I'm not speaking of any specific example. I I can't think of anything. I can't either, but it can make you do that. You'll admit that. Sure. It could also make you do like blow up Oklahoma City, too. Yes. And it can also And it all and I fully acknowledge that it also keeps millions of people in line. Like Mark Wahberg, I'm guessing without Catholicism. He just looks like a guy who would be in a lot more trouble. But I think it just has has made his life, you know, much more under control. Um, so, so there's one Mark Wahlberg I think really benefits from Catholicism. And but I think there's lots of people like that. They just like they truly are worried that if they do something out of line, illegal or immoral that the devil will in short order after they die be poking them in the ass with a pitchfork. And so they don't do that. And I got to give it up. That's a you know that is a positive. Do you do you are you at all worried that when a nation becomes too secular, it might not know what it believes? There's no cultural cohesion, there's no glue that keeps it together. Yeah, but this isn't that nation. This isn't secular. This is a bunch of [ __ ] religious freaks. It's increasingly secular, though. Well, thank you. I'm trying. No, but I appreciate you are quite the evangelist for your cause of no afterlife and no creator. It You know what? It creeps up a little, but people people always are going to want it. They want they people always are going to want to believe a story. It's much better than the truth, which is that things are random. We don't know the big questions. We don't know how we got here. We don't know why we're here. We don't know how the universe started. We're alone in the universe. You know, is there a God? What is the nature of God? Which one is the right God? We just don't. Nobody knows. I mean, that's why they call it faith. Do you hope you're wrong? That's that's the most important question. That's a great question. Um, well, how do you hope there's a heaven? I hope they figure out how I can live forever. I like it here with you, Charlie, drinking this and smoking pot. I'm having a great time. I really can't imagine it better. I I mean I can't and maybe it is. I'm sure it is. I'm sure you know people have but but something in you probably hopes that I don't know Hitler gets ultimate judgment or most evil things, right? Um something in you wants to see your loved ones and I don't think about Hitler. Well, there's got to be a desire somewhere. A lot of people just think about Hitler a lot. What? I know, but I'm just saying Hitler comes up a lot. He just he really Fair enough. Let's that there is a a desire that there's some something beyond this. Well, that is just okay. Yes, that I do. But I mean, it's very hard to find that justice on earth. Ask an AIDS baby. Oh, don't Bill. That's why when you say, "Hey, I'm happy here." There's a lot of suffering on earth, too. And that's the It is. And some And that's the Christian argument. And some of it is is, you know, we we obviously can see it comes from no bad deed done. you know, child children with cancer. Of course, it's and it's it's and then they say, well, that's, you know, God works in mysterious ways, which is sort of a get out of jail card any kind of non admittedly, it's the hardest. We as Christians have to explain unjust suffering. Atheists have to explain everything else. How do you explain it? We don't. It's hard. It's a mystery. We can say God works in mysterious ways. We can say original sin. However, we don't have to explain creation or the miracle of life or love or justice or But we don't have to explain it either because it's not explainable. Because we don't know. We say we don't know. That's honest. You say, "No, somebody told a story a long time ago and we're going to stick with that." That to me, I'm not trying to be insulting. You can't offend me. Trust me. I mean that. So, you could be as crude or as blunt. Okay. I just I mean that it's not but I find that intellectually embarrassing. It's fine. You know, spring is here and the warm weather makes me want to get outside for some quality time playing basketball and meeting up with friends. The last thing I want to do in the little free time I have is worry about making food. Luckily, I found factor. I found it right here on the table next to me. Luckily, I found factor with their nutritious 2minute meals. Eating well has never been this easy. You just heat up and enjoy, giving you more time to do what you want. 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You ever notice how more and more people are stepping away from organized religion? Not my last guest, but in general, it's like we all collectively realize, wait, I don't actually have to go to synagogue on Friday or church on Sundays. and boom, sleeping in one. But here's the thing, not everyone's cool with this shift. Christian nationalism is on the rise, and they're working overtime to shove their beliefs into our laws, our schools, and even our personal lives. It's like, hey, I respect your right to believe whatever you want, just don't make me live by it. That's where the Freedom from Religion Foundation comes in. They fight to keep church and state separate like our founders actually intended. So whether you've always been secular or have left religion behind, believe in keeping faith out of our government. FFRF has your back. Join us. Go to ffffrf. us/freedom or text club to 511511. Become a member today. Text club to 511511 or go to ffr. us/freedom. Because the only thing worse than someone forcing religion on you is when they do it by law. For membership information, text club to 511511. Text fees may apply. And so are is there any part of the Bible you think is true? Well, no, it's an important question. Meaning like when they were documenting King David, like was King David a real figure? There there are there are are shards of it that are I'm sure. So Jesus was a real person. Well, that we don't know. That is not a definitive. It really is not. Like, take Paul. We both agree Paul was legit and a real person. Paul was a Jew, persecuted Jews, and then had his, you know, road to Damascus moment. Why would he do that? Except for the fact that he's crazy or like delusional? Like, what incentive would Paul have to do that? Rich, ruling class, gave up everything. You know, you're you're saying to me, uh, are there is there never a case of human delusion or mass delusion or people conde Why are suicide cults? Of course there are. No, I I acknowledge that the capacity, the human capacity to believe what's not true, to believe what you want to believe is infinite. I mean, you are literally the person I'm talking about at the very beginning of the movie Religulous because the very first scene, I'm sitting in the car and I'm saying the the movie is not a spiritual quest. I mean, that's what we told them. So, they'd sign the release. The movie is me saying, I don't know how it could be that so many intelligent people can wall off a part of their mind and believe in something that part of their mind must know is not true. That's the question I'm going for in religion and like you're obviously a super smart guy and respectfully you go ahead and I'm again I don't want to insult you on that and I appreciate you saying no I mean you see me go to college campuses there's nothing that can but you understand my question interestingly ironically I have the same struggle I don't know how somebody as intelligent as you and I'm not I'm not trying to offend you cannot believe time out hold on all of that takes faith I acknowledge but that all of the finetuning of our universe. If any of those finetunings were off, a famous a famous scientist, some of them are off. A famous scientist said to believe that the universe and the earth in its current composition was an act of randomness would believe that a hurricane would go through a junkyard and assemble a 737 flight ready Boeing. He's wrong. Okay, that's fine. But there are so many fine-tuning aspects to our existence that I think defy the idea that this is all randomness and all chance. Now, you know, that's not logical. You're saying because I don't know the answer, I'm going to assume the answer must be that a divine intervention did it. That's not really a scientific way of looking at the cosm. So the cos the teological view, not the cosmological view, is that all of these fine tunings when layered up one after the other, it defies I think reason to think that this is just a roll of the dice. That when you see a baby come into the world, when you see how we naturally heal, when you even consciousness itself, I think is a pretty miraculous thing to think that's all just a bunch of happy accidents. But I mean, It's more rational to think that that's a byproduct of design. You're saying some prime mover made it so these made it so these things happen. I would say if a prime mover could do that, why don't skip all the suffering and why don't you just get us to where we're the perfect thing? Why you need things? I don't know. But okay, the perfect being right away. We're we're some somehow on this journey to being uh you know completely immortal and healthy I guess and and and and completely moral and don't [ __ ] each other up and don't have sex with children and all the bad things we do evil of our world. Yeah. All the evil and the Holocaust and why go through all that if you are a prime mover. I assume that means you can do anything and just get us right to the end and then we can just what why just a bunch of us walking around being perfect? I mean why is that interesting to a god? You know the whole thing just don't make sense. I get so that's that's a separate question though of whether or not there is something behind our existence. I mean so we believe that the universe started with a big bang. Do you agree with that? Yeah. But that's not the beginning of things. That's just the beginning of what the known universe is. The big question is what was before that? And we believe it's a a being, a god. That's that's always that's a constant. And look, I mean, you know, the the the misnomer about atheism is that we say, "Oh, there's no God." No, we just we just say we don't know. As Richard Dawkins always says, there's theism, which is belief in gods, and they used to believe in many, and then it got to one, and we just believe in one less. So there's just just not how how would you differentiate that from agnosticism? There isn't that's that's another thing that's [ __ ] No, I I I don't I'm just asking question. No, I think a lot of atheists think that. A lot of people on my team with this, they have that view that, you know, don't split hairs with the atheists and the agnostics. It's like it's we're on some part of I don't know and I really and I'll never know. So I really don't think about it a lot. I don't get up for church. I try to be a good person because I just think intrinsically it's it's good for society. It's good for me to be a good person as much as I can and I don't need the threat of the pitchfork in the ass to do it. Can I can I ask a question? So, how But you even acknowledge though that some people act better if they feel as if they'll be judged eternally. Totally. Okay. No, that's that's a big that's a big admission. But Oh, yes. H how do you think society best determines what is good? That's a great question. I mean, isn't that what government is always wrestling with? What makes society good? Do you think even as an atheist, the ten commandments, the right side of the ten commandments is a good place to start. The right side. Well, because the left side, I think you'd have a big problem, right? I have a problem with with eight of the 10 because only two of them are laws. You got a problem with eight of the 10? Two of them are laws. Only two. What do you mean? Don't kill and don't steal. Okay. And don't steal. Sure. Like I mean this idea that God is You're good with those two. Like the first four are just jealous God [ __ ] It's just like you know what God I'm wondering your parents is not jealous God stuff. God's like a pimp who was in the next room and he's who you on the phone with there girl. You know I mean but I mean I guess I'm testing that. Hold on. But no, it's again I'm I'm not offendable on this, but I think you could I know you made fun of it religious, but there's something beautiful about not working for a day. Oh, you mean like honoring the Sabbath? Oh, I a week is even better. Um, well, the Sabbath. No, I mean the Sabbath is slowing down and saying that we're not going to toil for But do you need Why would you need a religion to get to that? Why would you need a religion to hey, let's not kill each other and uh take a day off? Like I again I don't need a threat or a carrot for that. It just it's just so intrinsic. It's it sort of reminds me of the beginning of the Declaration of Independence. If it's intrinsic then why is it that a lot of countries that don't have Christianity struggle to come to these realizations that for example you know communist China again no Hitler analogies right under Mao which was which was resolutely atheist right resolutely yeah I mean well no I did a monologue in religious it might have confucutionism underlying it I did a monologue in religious about that very subject which is uh the people who say Oh, Bill, these atheistic societies like like uh North Korea and no, those kind of societies, they just replaced the leader of the country for a god. They are not atheistic. When you look at what the Korean, the North Korean people believe about Kim Jong-un, it's a deification of a de I mean completely the same [ __ ] that he when he was born, winter turned to spring. He once he'll be immortal in the heaven. First time he played golf, he got 11 holes in one. He invented the hamburger. I'm not making That's more improbable than a virgin birth. It is. It really is. I'm not making this up. But they believe that. So don't tell me North Korea is atheistic. They're not atheistic. But but they there is a in in China at least and of course in the Soviet Union there was a anti-Christian movement. Very hard. Very hardcore. So I guess like what code and I'm not saying this sarcastically like what code what book do you think is best for humanity to live by? I say the Bible. What would you say? No, it's an important it's important philosophical question, right? I have a book called Not the Bible. Not kidding. There's literally so not loving your neighbor and not like you know helping. There's a lot of good stuff there. Okay, but again it's let me tell you why I'm asking. We're you're cherrypicking. I come. Story of the Bible is one of love and redemption. There's a lot in the Bible. It is. It's a story of love. The Old Testament, well, the entire arc of the Bible is a story of love and a need for humans redemption. Well, that's a charitable way of looking at it and that's in there. There's a lot of things in there because it's a giant anthology over centuries of many different writers. There is a lot in the Bible. There's It wasn't written by God, right? There's a book of the Bible I think you'd love. What? Song of Solomon. Song of Solomon. Crossway Souls in Nash. Song of Solomon's all about sex. I know it is. Yeah. Quote it. Uh can't. It's not. It's not appropriate. No. What? No, it's it's too dirty for a podcast. There it's it it literally is about how a husband and wife can grow intimate to one another. And there's uh Oh, can you tell me that? Can you give me the cheat sheet on that one? Oh, it's I'm telling you the Bible has wisdom in ways you might never imagine, Bill. Um but no, what I'm getting at though is that human this is not a gotcha or a sarcasm. I mean this like humanity will seek to find a book. They'll seek to find a code to live by. Well, I think it's incumbent on atheists to tell us what that should be. I agree with the first part of that. Humanity will seek to find seek to know. That's Aristotle's first. Well, seek to find something that mllifies their feelings. That's different than knowing. No, they don't really care about knowing. They care about mllifying their feelings. I feel empty. What will make me feel better? This book that purports to have answers it couldn't possibly have. But it does make me feel better because now I don't have to wonder about things that are very problematic to worry about like how did I get here and what does it all mean and why do you know kids get [ __ ] cancer when they're two for no reason. I don't I don't have an answer. I I know. I'm just saying this book has the answers to that question. Don't ask. Okay. Don't ask. A and B. God works in mysterious ways and that's the end of it. Go to your room. I think it's a little deeper than that. But it is I mean it is deeper. It of course it's that hey why are we here? Why were we created? But fair enough. I do want to know though. But like what I don't got it for you. We don't have it and we don't claim that. But that's a big problem though. It's it's and let me pause because the Bible was the document as you acknowledged that our founders read and believed that built this beautiful society that you and I both love. And I think it's treading on dangerous if we want to a cut our roots without an alternative because if we cut our roots then we get all this other counterfeit stuff of wokeism and all this postmodernist garbage. So, our contention is let's go back to where we came from. You know who Eugene O'Neal is? No. Eugene O'Neal. Uh, no. Oh, wow. Kids today. Uh, giant of American literature or theater. A long day's journey into night. Have you heard of that play? Never heard of Long Day's Journey into Night. You kids, what are they doing with you in school? I never went to college, Bill. This is the problem. Okay. Anyway, he once said, um, "A life I find a life with illusions unpardonable and a life without illusions unbearable." And that's the essence of where we are. You choose the second, I choose the first. I find a life with illusions unpardonable. I just can't do it. Okay? And you find a life without illusions unbearable. And the fact that we can, I think, come to this moment where we go, okay, that's you type A, I'm type B and and still be friends. To me, this is the future of where this country has to be. Nothing you have said has offended me in the slightest. And I appreciate and I I I appreciate that because again, that was my question in religionist. How can otherwise really super smart people? But this is the answer like and do you can I interrupt? Do you doubt those of us that have had religious experiences? Do you think it's just like neurological phenomenon? What what do you how would you define? I say that Jesus changed my life and he's gone to work in my soul. Okay. Um but was he like getting did he jump in the car with you at the drive-thru? You know, like Okay. It's what you said a religious experience. I have to ask how how much that is. There was a moment where I realized that I'm not all that I would ever want to be. That I fall short of the glory of God's wish. When was this? When I was in fifth grade, actually, I believe. Fifth grade? Really? Yeah. That's when I gave my life to the Lord. You were thinking about this [ __ ] in fifth grade. Amazingly. I went to Christian school. So So you don't see that as indoctrination? Well, you know, I actually went to a private school previously, but they didn't force it on us to their credit. No. But you said you were in a Christian school. Okay. You're 10. You're in a Christian school. There's no connection of like maybe at a very early age they put a chip in your brain. I mean I still had to make the decision for myself there and to the cor and there's a lot of kids that went to that school that aren't Christians anymore. And so by the way I went to Catholic. I was raised Catholic. I went to didn't stick. I had the opposite reaction to catechism which was the religious training we would go to on Sunday morning where you would learn how to be a good Catholic. And it just really turned me off to the Was it too Was it too forceful, too legalistic? Like all of it. It was just a giant I mean I was used to a room with uh 20 kids in it at regular school and then on Sunday there's like 60 kids and they're from different schools and they're just like that like and the nuns were like mean cuz you got 60 kids you don't really know. You have to like and of course they're mean to begin with to like get them in order and and they scared you and they yelled at you and they hit you with a ruler on the knuckles. I really I'm from that era where they still like [ __ ] hit you on the you you know how often I hear the rulers from like like scorned Catholics. The ruler is like a very common thing. Again, the idea that you keep people in line, it's by fear. That's why you're keeping people in line. And that's a question that an atheist really, I think, is due to ask a religious person. Do you really think fear is the best way for us to grow and become good people? Because if that's how we're doing it, I do have a problem with the methodology, even if I believed in the religion. I hear that from a lot of people that were raised Catholic. And No, I do. I'm sorry. It's true. It's so true about the Catholic thing. I'm sorry. No, no, you're right. I didn't mean to, you know. Did I do an exorcism or something? You know, trust me, we have a whole highlight reel of of spit takes. It's the It's the highlight of any show. If the guest doesn't make If I can make Bill Mar laugh, if the guest doesn't make me do a spit take, we consider that it's a failure, but but you did, so go on. But yes, Cath Catholics, yes, that's exactly who you would hear that from. Um, it's an underemphasis on grace. And grace? Yeah. What is grace? It's such a vague term. So justice is getting what you deserve, which me personally anyone. Yeah. We believe all humanity deserves damnation and judgment. Tough tough stuff. And it started in the garden stuff. It's the Oh, you believe in the garden. You believe in the Old Testament [ __ ] Oh, yeah. No, I'm right. To the I'm one of those Christians like 6,000 years old thing. Not necessarily because in religious I went to see the um Not necessarily. I went to see the museum. You know the museum that they have in Oh yeah. Ken Hams deal. Ken Ham. Yes. And we interviewed Ken. He was not happy. You got to you got to admit the ark is pretty impressive. Have you seen the ark? They built a whole ark there. We were there for a whole day. I don't know. I don't can't remember if it was before or after the ark. No. No, it was. And Jesus. That's impressive. And Jesus riding the dinosaur. Yeah. I don't know about that. Jesus riding the dinosaur. Do I really need to elaborate, people? Okay, go ahead with your thing. Judgment is getting what you deserve. Mercy is getting less what you deserve. Uh, grace. Wait, wait. Jud, mercy is getting less than what you did. Yeah. So, we believe Jesus gives us grace. So, you get a prison sentence, you get judgment. You get mercy, you get less of a prison sentence. Grace would be Jesus serving that prison sentence for you so you could live life eternal. Well, how how is he serving that? Oh, you mean like in the big picture? Well, because we believe him living a perfect life and then suffering the death that he did on the cross, right, was him atoning for our sins. Of course, the sins of humanity. Jesus. Yeah. Which is a big claim, albeit and a very compelling one, which we also believe one to be true because it redeems all of humanity of our shortfalling of the glory of God. I got to say, it's it's really picking up the check for the whole table, you know? I mean, you gota you got to give it to your boy for like all of our sins. It's it's a very generous statement. But what it does it is at its core a statement of human equality that we're all sinners. We're all screwed up. We all got problems. We all got vices. And like no one, no matter what you do, we all fall short of God's standard and Jesus makes us whole. But how do you think this view of life reflects your politics and how much should it and how much does it? So look at me. Big pthead just turned into a real interviewer. I love it. It's a Larry King coming full circle here. Um there you and I both agree there's it's very difficult to have separation of morality and state. Correct. So, my morals come from the Bible, right? And that definitely influences my public policy decisions. Mine come from Playboy After Dark. Is that a problem? It's a little bit different than let's just say the book of Deuteronomy. I'm just Oh, well, that's full of crazy [ __ ] Oh, okay. Yeah. The book of Deuteronomy. Well, there's some That's the one. But that's the love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. That's good. Yeah. also like no poking in the wrong hole. You're going to have to ask gay a rabbitic Jew about that. Well, there's there it's I think it's Deuteronomy that Leviticus has the do not lie with another man, right? Yeah, that's Leviticus 19. No. And that's not that is wrong. Thou shalt not lie with another man. Do not lie to another man because when if you lie to a gay man, oh, you are going to pay for it. That's rough stuff. But lie with another man. That should be everybody's right, don't you think? Uh, personally, you have you have a right to to do what you would like to do personally. Yeah. With another person. But I as a Christian do not believe that would be holy. I think it would be sinful. Yeah. But but that's just that's a personal theolog I don't want to get too deep. That's a personal theological. No, we need to get a little deeper into this because it's so important just to understand. Well, let me ask you what you what you believe. I believe that some people, a decided minority, maybe one out of 20 probably, for whatever reason, that nature, this perfect nature that you describe as perfect. Well, it was designed perfect. It's all screwed up now. Okay. No, no. I mean, we we have disease and we have, you know, all sorts of stuff. Got down syndrome. We got all Well, then it wasn't designed perfect cuz it screwed up. We we you know, we know what we believe, Bill. We believe there was a rebellion and a contamination of nature, right? Because that is sin, right? Okay. If they did hadn't eaten the apple, well, we actually don't know it's an apple, but yes, it's not whatever that it could have been a mango. Well, I know. No, don't get me started on mangoes. So, as they say in West Hollywood, there's nothing like having a mango in your mouth. It It's George Castanza's favorite fruit, but yes. So, but Oh, damn. And what was the point? Yeah, I know. Tell me. Something about Deuteronomy. Oh, homosexuality. Is that you want to say homosexuality? As we're keeping it on the lighter topic. Thank you. So about one out of 20 people, maybe even one out of 10, I don't know. And then people will say there's a spectrum. Maybe there's that too. Of course there are. There is. Some people are like, you know what the kids kids call zesty? Uh, you know, not gay but kind of on the waiting list. Okay. But let's say just gay, like people who are just not attracted to the opposite sex. They're attracted and want to have sex with people of their own sex. Would you agree that that happens in nature? Yeah, of course it does. Yes, there there are instances of species in the animal kingdom that do that. Absolutely. I I I I acknowledge this and we are in the animal kingdom. In fact, we're number one with a bullet. Okay. So given that we both agree that that's a phenomena that exists. There's other things that happen in nature that aren't so good too. But just yes, that's correct. Like on a par with this. No, I'm just saying just to say that it happens in the the species of the animal kingdom doesn't make it necessarily morally okay. But what's immoral about [ __ ] in the ass? What what I don't I don't understand why the ass in it in itself ipso facto is immoral. It's just an ass. And and the fact that some people want to [ __ ] in there I've done a million jokes about. I don't get that. I mean, it's where the [ __ ] comes out. I just don't get it. I'd find if I even I was gay, I'd find another way. But that's just me. But they do want to do it. Why is what why is there an a moral dimension to this? Again, I believe scripture is God breathed. It's what the Bible say. Okay. Because because the Bible says. Yeah, I do. Correct. But you do know like the you know argument from people like me that kind of logical argument is that well these books were really not written by a god. They were written by men and it reflected of course they were transcribed by reflected the primitive views of people in that era who would of course have had primitive views. They also didn't understand germs or atoms. So their views on this were primitive and they believed that there was something wrong with that that I get it that it was different than the most of the people in the tribe that you know these two guys are going off and doing it but that we can as as sentient beings now logical intellectual beings recognize it. This was from a long time ago. And now it's just something that happens in nature that some people want to [ __ ] this way and some people want to [ __ ] this way. And there's no moral dimension to it and no reason to to call it a sin. Again, Christianity just disagrees with that. So, I mean, I just it's the only sin that God destroyed a city over. So, I mean, and I'm not trying to be legalistic about it. That's just the fact, right? And it's it's very it's explicitly prohibited in the text, by the way. So is adultery and so is stealing and so is coveting. I'm guilty of coveting and I mean we're all guilty of many sins. I'm not trying to single that one out and try to be pompous or I think the phrase you're searching for is save your breath. Okay. This is what we believe and I get it and totally it's doctrine. So wait, coveting? What do you mean now? Coveting is one you can't control. No, that's not true. Oh, stop it. You can control coveting. It's like saying you can control. If I say don't ever think of a pink elephant, you will think of a pink elephant. It's a little bit more than thinking. I would I we would say in the interpretation of coveting. It's to the place where you become obsessed. Oh, it takes your being. No. Oh, no. That's coveting. I thought coveting was just wanting something you don't have. Well, we that's of course you can't regulate every thought that you have, but coveting gets to the place where it becomes your identity of obsession. And that let me tell you why. Because it says do not cover a specific thing. your your your neighbor's wife, you know, your donkey. So, it's like a very specific thing. So, for example, if like, you know, someone says, I want to be I I can't stand Bill Maher. I want to be a comedian as successful as Bill Maher, and it becomes their identity. I don't think that's good. I think it I think it ruins your soul. I think you would agree with that, too. You know, people like that. Don't give them any ideas. No, come on. I mean, they're already there. But people that are consumed with, you know, jealousy, that's what we would say coveting is. Not just like, oh, don't think of the pink elephant. I'm not here to, okay, play air traffic control in your thoughts, right? Because, you know, you're an attractive guy. I'm sure I'm sure there's lots of MAGA groupies and I'm sure coveting comes up. You know, how can you not covet, you know, and and praise God that I have a great wife, right? And, you know, she understands about the coveting. Yeah. We're we have a a very healthy, loyal, you know, wonderful marriage. Look, but male nature is that's why there had to be a prohibition on adultery because it is male nature to No, it's it's I think it's actually easier to be a female in that way. I completely agree. Right. I covet being a female. I I wouldn't go that I wouldn't go that far. But how wrong is that? I'm No. And again, it's and again, good on you for being a liberal that acknowledges male female distinctions. What a concept. Of course. I mean, of all the low-lying fruit that the Democrats just like hand the Republicans to win elections, that's the one. You know, it's so funny. I joked around with my team the other day. I said, "Are they really going to just let us win every national election on this no men and female sports thing?" Like, they can't surrender on this one issue. It's so ridiculous. It's a 9010 issue. Yeah. There's 890 medals and trophies of men winning these competitions. You lost Gavin Newsome on this. Okay. Take that as a hint, right? I mean, you were I think you were I was the one that asked the question, right? Yeah. Issue of fairness, all that. Well, that's what I started to say when you sat down. You're everywhere now. You're uh Gavin knew everybody's podcast and and you know, look, I always say this, everybody's a monster till you talk to them. Not to say that there aren't some people who probably are monsters, but like I mean, I've yet to find the horror show that is you. So, tell me keep looking, Bill. No, I want to. You got You're just You got to keep going. I do. I want it. So, tell me cut me cut me some slack cuz we're friends now, right? We really are. Absolutely. Okay. So, just cut to the chase. What is it that the um 10% who hate me? Oh, yeah. Tell me what they are wanting me to press you on now. What is the thing that presses their buttons the most about why you're encouragables dip? I don't even think you would agree with their accusations then. But I just want to know what it is. They would say I'm hateful. They would say I'm a bigot. They would say that I'm a xenophobe. They would that t
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