Charlie Kirk and Chris Buskirk on Why Conservatives Must Stop Saying No and Start Thinking Big

[00:00] we got a great conversation in store

[00:02] here

[00:05] and hello to everyone watching on the

[00:07] live stream and

[00:08] all other places we are my name's

[00:10] misspelled

[00:12] it's not matt taxes eric

[00:16] yeah the way my father spells it and

[00:18] really he's the one i go by

[00:20] uh it's m-e-t-a-x-a-s but i just feel

[00:24] like not having kirk in my surname

[00:26] i just feel like that's good enough you

[00:28] know who i am that disqualifies you from

[00:30] being on the stage here

[00:31] and then of course chris buskirk a great

[00:33] friend of mine who runs american

[00:34] greatness

[00:35] uh which is finale it's amgreatness.com

[00:38] is that right it is

[00:39] yeah so i really wanted to have this

[00:40] conversation about thinking big

[00:43] and why the conservative movement had

[00:45] how the conservative movement has been

[00:46] plagued by just saying

[00:48] no all the time and saying no is very

[00:50] helpful in fact there's a lot of things

[00:51] we should say no to

[00:52] but also we should be a movement that

[00:54] excites our followers and tries to get

[00:56] people to be

[00:58] thinking outside of just um kind of the

[01:01] normal parameters so chris i want to

[01:02] start with you you're

[01:03] you're kind of writing a book around

[01:04] these ideas um

[01:06] what do we have to do to try to expand

[01:10] our horizons and

[01:12] concretely think big in the conservative

[01:14] movement i guess let me let me start

[01:16] with

[01:16] uh with this is it's a matter of

[01:19] thinking

[01:19] we have to reframe our fundamental

[01:21] questions about what it is we're trying

[01:23] to achieve both in politics and

[01:25] in culture and i the way i think about

[01:28] it

[01:28] is it i guess two ways one is uh

[01:31] what is it that we want the world around

[01:34] us

[01:34] to look like how is it that we want to

[01:37] live like francis schaefer says how then

[01:38] shall we live

[01:39] that's the fundamental question and we

[01:41] can look back at our own history in this

[01:42] country and maybe take two

[01:44] um i think touchstones historically that

[01:47] i think

[01:48] that conservatives would generally agree

[01:49] are important to how we think about

[01:51] ourselves

[01:52] as americans one of course is the

[01:53] founding of the republic

[01:55] and then the other one is 1955 kind of

[01:59] the

[01:59] founding of the modern post-war american

[02:01] conservative movement which is the

[02:03] launch of national review which kind of

[02:05] became the

[02:06] the voice of american conservatism for

[02:09] you know 25 30 years

[02:12] in the fount with the founders they

[02:14] self-consciously made a decision to

[02:17] do the biggest thing that humans can do

[02:19] outside of their families or their

[02:21] churches which

[02:22] is they started a country right that's a

[02:24] pretty ambitious undertaking

[02:27] fast forward 200 almost 200 years

[02:30] and national review on the cover of

[02:32] their first

[02:34] edition of the magazine they famously

[02:36] say uh we're standing a thwart history

[02:39] yelling stop and there's a picture of a

[02:41] train coming at them

[02:44] they're standing in front of a train i

[02:48] mean that

[02:48] was not something i would advise my

[02:50] children to do in general and i you know

[02:52] that's

[02:53] i think that's at the wrong time staying

[02:55] stop

[02:56] does not stop the train it doesn't stop

[02:58] the train it's just as the predicate to

[03:00] you getting flattened and so

[03:01] there's you know my basic viewpoint on

[03:03] how we think about life is there's no

[03:05] neutral

[03:06] you're either if you're either going

[03:07] forward or you're going back let's take

[03:09] our cues from what the founders were

[03:10] doing and think about the way we want

[03:12] this country to be let's make it very

[03:15] concrete

[03:16] and then talk about how do we get from

[03:18] where we are right now to there

[03:20] so eric you and i were talking about

[03:22] this backstage nice pink shirt by the

[03:24] way that is thinking big

[03:25] any time man you know it's always some

[03:28] very it used to be white i threw it in

[03:30] with some red stuff and i said you know

[03:31] what

[03:32] life is short let's go with it and you

[03:34] got the you got the blue socks you are

[03:35] just suited up

[03:36] it's very good white and blue brother

[03:38] it's yeah it's it's the it's the summer

[03:40] wardrobe

[03:41] eric why is it not enough just to say no

[03:44] well first of all i want to point out

[03:46] that uh

[03:47] william f buckley was trying to be funny

[03:51] when he had you know standing in front

[03:53] of the train

[03:54] and so that is a

[03:57] characteristic of conservatism

[04:01] a wink wit intelligence

[04:05] so that's an important thing we don't

[04:07] need really to unpack that but

[04:09] but it is not uh immaterial

[04:12] when you're talking about what does it

[04:13] mean to be a conservative

[04:15] to be able to laugh at things to laugh

[04:17] at yourself that's called being

[04:19] emotionally

[04:20] healthy but

[04:23] if you want to just talk about the

[04:25] basics

[04:26] conservatism we believe that you can

[04:30] grow

[04:31] the pie we can create wealth

[04:35] those ideas are antithetical to the

[04:38] socialist left which says

[04:39] the pie is one size and we have to

[04:43] divide it up

[04:44] and then of course we know if you

[04:45] understand how economics works

[04:47] if you think that way you're going to be

[04:49] shrinking

[04:50] the pie and so we have to understand

[04:53] that this principle

[04:55] is reality-based earlier in the panel

[04:57] you were talking about

[04:58] math and how math is racist the left

[05:02] increasingly goes into this gnostic

[05:05] idea that is anti-reality

[05:08] think about what we're talking about

[05:09] we're at that point now their

[05:11] anti-reality

[05:12] pretty soon they're going to say

[05:13] carpentry and engineering are racist

[05:15] right

[05:16] so reality says that

[05:19] uh you can grow

[05:23] wealth so if you care about poor people

[05:25] you want to grow

[05:26] wealth so the idea that we're conserving

[05:29] something at some point i think you have

[05:32] to step away from that

[05:33] because it's sort of um i mean of course

[05:36] we're conserving something but what

[05:37] we're conserving really

[05:39] is fidelity to reality

[05:42] because the left is unmoored from

[05:45] reality

[05:46] they have these ideas which we have seen

[05:49] in the decades

[05:50] be proved to not work that we can

[05:54] we can divide up a certain amount of

[05:56] wealth and everybody will be blessed and

[05:57] will live in utopia

[05:59] that never happens the ideas of

[06:01] conservatism

[06:02] are fundamentally reality based there

[06:04] are a lot of people how can we bless

[06:06] the most people how can we give

[06:08] everybody opportunity

[06:10] so it's it's a wildly different thing

[06:13] than we're at a point in a sense where

[06:16] it is the left

[06:17] that is trying to conserve the pie

[06:20] and they they can't do it so so chris

[06:24] what does that look like

[06:26] what does it look like for a movement to

[06:28] start to demand

[06:30] kind of this new era of of risk-taking

[06:33] and doing things

[06:35] because it seems as if the only risks

[06:37] that we take anymore in society

[06:39] or trying to like to roll out an

[06:40] experimental vaccine or

[06:42] invading some other sovereign country

[06:44] halfway around the world

[06:46] like never would we think about actually

[06:47] trying hey we should do an ambitious

[06:50] you know project to try and get

[06:52] middle-inc

[06:53] income workers to actually invest in the

[06:55] country or you know something like that

[06:57] of course

[06:57] that's done in some sort of like sound

[06:59] bite way but not actually substantively

[07:01] or concretely in the 1950s

[07:04] neil ferguson would say that we built

[07:06] the interstate highway system

[07:08] in a fraction of the time it would take

[07:09] us now for a fraction of the cost

[07:11] and it wasn't even considered to be that

[07:13] daring at the time because they had just

[07:15] won a major war

[07:16] yeah no there's so many of these great

[07:18] examples of things that america used to

[07:20] build like if you've been to san

[07:21] francisco and crossed the golden gate

[07:23] bridge

[07:23] uh you know about you go across uh and

[07:26] you see treasure island

[07:27] there so it's about a four square mile

[07:30] island in the middle of san francisco

[07:32] bay it was

[07:32] um it was built during the depression

[07:35] like it is a manmade island

[07:36] it was built during the depression in

[07:38] like 12 months uh and a few thousand

[07:40] people

[07:40] now live on that island like it has it

[07:44] took almost 15 years to build about a

[07:46] mile

[07:47] of access road to the golden gate in the

[07:49] early 2000s

[07:50] and cost more in real dollars than it

[07:52] cost to build

[07:54] treasure island and you you brought up

[07:57] uh i think what i think is one of the

[07:59] key words

[07:59] which is risk um and so we have become

[08:03] a pathologically risk-averse nation

[08:06] uh and society and the irony here is is

[08:09] that as we become more risk averse

[08:12] it has actually raised the risk level in

[08:14] the country

[08:17] and that's something that we just don't

[08:18] appreciate i mean this is you think

[08:20] about the last year or so

[08:21] around covid think about the things that

[08:23] we have done to this country to families

[08:25] to individuals to businesses to the

[08:26] social

[08:27] and political fabric of the nation in

[08:29] the names of reducing risk when in

[08:31] actuality what we've done is raised

[08:33] the risk of failure of all of those

[08:36] things and in fact caused the failure

[08:38] of a lot of things i mean we've seen

[08:39] suicide rates rise in this country we've

[08:42] seen deaths uh other types of deaths of

[08:44] despair

[08:44] uh related to alcoholism and drug abuse

[08:47] rise over the past year

[08:49] you know and so while we're talking

[08:51] about while we're doing this for safety

[08:53] we don't want the risk actually what

[08:55] we've done is inflict a lot of damage

[08:57] and so one of the things we need i think

[08:59] to do is reframe the way

[09:00] we think about what we're doing and just

[09:02] saying risk is a part of life

[09:04] and that if we want to do big things

[09:06] we're going to have to embrace

[09:08] risk and

[09:10] [Music]

[09:12] let me suggest one one thing here that

[09:15] i've been thinking about like what are

[09:16] the because i always think you know we

[09:17] always talk about these big

[09:18] principles and that's good but that's

[09:20] only can be a starting point let's

[09:21] always like try and concretize these

[09:23] things

[09:24] one of the things that uh that i've uh

[09:26] proposed in a couple of different forums

[09:28] uh which i think would be interesting

[09:30] and actually the current

[09:31] governor of uh of nevada proposes to the

[09:34] legislature he's a

[09:35] he's a democrat he yes this leg yeah he

[09:38] he got immediately shut down by the

[09:40] democrats in the in his

[09:41] in his legislature but he proposed uh

[09:44] taking a large

[09:45] i think it was about a hundred bro i

[09:48] don't quote me this but a very large

[09:49] tract of land in nevada

[09:51] and basically turning it over to create

[09:52] a charter city

[09:54] build something new build a you know

[09:57] allow the

[09:58] allow people to go out and have that

[10:00] experience of of conquering a frontier

[10:02] even if it's only on a small scale

[10:04] and build a city experiment give them a

[10:06] lot of latitude

[10:08] inside the confines obviously of federal

[10:10] law but

[10:11] from the states um from the from the

[10:13] state's perspective they could give them

[10:15] a place where people could go and create

[10:18] something absolutely new they could

[10:19] bring their families

[10:21] there's no requirement to go there but

[10:22] it allows people to start to

[10:24] build something that's really tangible

[10:26] so eric how do we manage that risk

[10:29] there's the problem and i was just

[10:31] actually talking to dan bongino about

[10:33] this

[10:34] where he said and it was a wonderful

[10:36] conversation that we're going to air

[10:38] soon it was done uh in the podcast area

[10:41] where he said look the problem is when i

[10:43] grew up

[10:44] i was able to kind of take all these

[10:45] risks and my parents didn't let me

[10:47] and i went on like a mattress on a

[10:49] skateboard down a hill and my mom

[10:51] was more worried about whether you know

[10:53] i dented a car than if i was you know

[10:55] hurt she's like you know

[10:56] is there any liability issue here by the

[10:58] way are you okay you know um

[11:00] but then i asked him and he was so

[11:02] amazingly honest

[11:04] i said so do you let your kids do that

[11:07] he's like oh no never

[11:08] and he said this is the problem i have

[11:10] and this is

[11:11] just kind of an example of a risk-averse

[11:13] society said i don't even let my

[11:14] daughter run down the street alone

[11:16] because i'm afraid of what's going to

[11:17] happen and so we

[11:19] how do we establish that that middle

[11:22] ground right because maybe it was wrong

[11:23] to have the mattress on the skateboard

[11:25] in the 18 you know 1950s maybe not

[11:27] oh that was totally right yeah but you

[11:30] see what i'm saying eric because i think

[11:31] yeah but the reason dan says that though

[11:33] is because he's like i want to protect

[11:35] my children how do we find that balance

[11:37] i ultimately for me all of this comes

[11:39] down to how do you define

[11:40] freedom we have to redefine

[11:44] uh freedom i don't mean redefine it but

[11:46] i mean we have to understand what do we

[11:48] mean by freedom

[11:49] and liberty i'm not a libertarian

[11:53] i believe in god i believe in the

[11:56] scriptures

[11:57] and i really believe that apart from

[12:01] the biblical worldview you can't have

[12:04] freedom and so if you really want people

[12:07] to be free

[12:08] you you really have to define all this

[12:10] stuff and the the idea of

[12:11] i mean i would actually say that what

[12:13] has happened

[12:15] this desire for safety

[12:18] for guarantees uh is fear of death

[12:22] it's it's nothing more or less it is

[12:24] fear

[12:25] of death in my crazy religion i believe

[12:29] that my god defeated death

[12:33] on the cross and i think to myself

[12:37] if i actually believe that if i know

[12:39] that that is true

[12:40] i will live utterly differently i will

[12:42] live free without fear

[12:45] the the democrats and the left are

[12:48] fundamentally

[12:49] fear based and they will say things like

[12:52] we're doing all this weird stuff because

[12:53] we want to save lives

[12:54] they don't even know why they want to be

[12:57] alive or what the point is they just

[12:59] talk they just use this as a boogeyman

[13:01] to scare people we want to save lives

[13:02] they are fundamentally fear-based

[13:04] if you know who you are and who's

[13:07] capital w

[13:08] you are you can really live freely

[13:12] and you will live differently and i

[13:14] honestly think that

[13:15] you know even those of us who say we're

[13:17] conservatives or christians

[13:18] we've bought into you know we're we're

[13:21] we're breathing

[13:22] the zeitgeist enough that even folks

[13:24] like dan bongino and i

[13:26] we we have bought into this a little bit

[13:29] because

[13:29] we don't model this in our culture i

[13:31] mean you know when i was growing up i'm

[13:33] watching john wayne movies and

[13:35] you know people are getting in fist

[13:36] fights and cracking chairs over each

[13:37] other's heads and stuff and you think

[13:38] that's what it is to be a man that looks

[13:40] like fun today

[13:42] if you actually did that in a in a bar

[13:45] you know you would you'd be arrested and

[13:47] you'd have to do community

[13:48] uh training or something like that

[13:49] because we don't behave that's toxic

[13:51] masculinity

[13:52] the wildness that is at the heart of

[13:55] of reality um you know you can go wrong

[13:59] in

[13:59] in two ways right you can say let's

[14:02] let's just

[14:02] ride that thing and and be we're going

[14:05] to be free but we're really going to be

[14:06] people

[14:07] who are living life it's licensed it's

[14:10] not

[14:10] liberty and so there is that balance and

[14:13] you really have to define these things

[14:14] and it's our culture today

[14:16] you really get a choice between you know

[14:18] i'm a christian conservative porn star

[14:20] isn't that great

[14:22] on the one hand not that i'm judging

[14:25] as long as it's christian porn i'm good

[14:27] with it i just want to be very very

[14:28] clear

[14:29] right but the point is that you've got

[14:31] that on the one hand which is

[14:34] obviously is saying that uh i don't

[14:36] believe in social conservatism so i want

[14:39] to say to that person

[14:40] how are you defining anything at this

[14:42] point you did you just want anarchy but

[14:44] you're calling it

[14:44] conservatism and then on the other hand

[14:47] you have this

[14:48] inability to be free and so you

[14:51] you're you're bound up uh and and and

[14:54] fear-based you say look we've only got

[14:55] this

[14:56] we can never grow wealth that's a crazy

[14:58] idea and so we're just going to have to

[15:00] divide it up and i just want to i just

[15:01] want to get my peace i mean

[15:03] these are so fundamentally different

[15:05] that we really kind of have to go there

[15:07] so so chris then from a public policy

[15:09] standpoint

[15:10] and how these ideas kind of come into

[15:12] reality we have to realize there's good

[15:14] risk and bad risk for example

[15:16] uh bad risk would be trying to um

[15:19] risk something in the pursuit of

[15:23] licentiousness or in the pursuit of

[15:26] pleasure

[15:26] that's why the american founding was a

[15:28] great example because it was risk in the

[15:30] pursuit of virtue

[15:32] right so we have to also we have to

[15:33] understand that our orientation is

[15:35] really important

[15:36] when we're talking about risk we're not

[15:38] telling you to just go and you know

[15:40] interrupt traffic to try to say that i'm

[15:42] fighting climate change right that's

[15:44] but we are saying hey it might be worth

[15:46] it to try to go to the airport as far as

[15:48] you can without wearing a mask

[15:50] that's crazy talk shut him down that's

[15:53] risk in the pursuit of

[15:55] a good thing so how so we have to make

[15:57] sure we're oriented correctly

[15:58] and then also can you give some examples

[16:00] chris of where you've been disappointed

[16:02] that conservatives in public office are

[16:05] not

[16:06] willing to take risks willing to embrace

[16:08] new ideas

[16:10] for whatever reason it's almost like

[16:11] they live in this permanent loss

[16:13] aversion state

[16:15] i didn't realize we were canceling the

[16:16] rest of the speakers for the afternoon

[16:18] because that's a long list

[16:21] i i want to just respond quickly to

[16:22] something um that that eric said

[16:25] that sort of leads leads into this uh

[16:27] and that is

[16:28] when you think about the people who sort

[16:30] of identify with the

[16:31] political left uh or people who live in

[16:35] opposition to the god of the bible

[16:37] atheists

[16:38] however you want to define them they

[16:39] know they don't want to die

[16:41] they don't know how they want to live or

[16:43] why it's just dying's bad

[16:44] for sure they don't they have no idea

[16:46] why dying is bad

[16:48] or why life is good because you don't

[16:50] have brunch on sunday

[16:51] i feel like that's like this right the

[16:53] secular right uh that happens on the

[16:55] seventh day of the week

[16:56] the the so that i think it goes back to

[17:00] like how do we think about it which is

[17:01] uh not wanting to die isn't sufficient

[17:04] it's why do you

[17:05] want to live and that defines to your

[17:07] point like what is a good risk to take

[17:09] what is a foolish risk

[17:10] to take so risk in the service of

[17:12] something that is worthwhile

[17:14] virtuous those are

[17:17] those risks are at least on the table

[17:19] now there could be ones that prudential

[17:20] you would say are worth it or not worth

[17:22] it within

[17:23] that universe but that's got to be your

[17:25] starting point and this is a place where

[17:27] to

[17:27] to the question you asked you know where

[17:29] people

[17:30] uh elect like a republican office holder

[17:33] sort of disappointed

[17:35] on this and there's i would say there's

[17:37] one big

[17:38] area on this front where republican

[17:41] office holders have consistently

[17:42] disappointed and what we've seen

[17:44] over the past 30 or 40 years is that in

[17:47] every even numbered year meaning every

[17:49] election

[17:50] year republican candidates and office

[17:52] holders

[17:53] realize that a lot of their volunteers a

[17:56] lot of their voters

[17:57] are our people of faith our christians

[18:01] uh catholic protestant whatever our

[18:03] observant jews

[18:05] this is the base of the people who

[18:08] forms the core of the republican

[18:10] coalition now there's

[18:12] obviously other groups and people view

[18:13] themselves differently as they have

[18:15] different

[18:16] priorities and whatnot but office

[18:18] holders go and say

[18:20] i'm against abortion for the family for

[18:22] faith blah blah blah blah

[18:24] and oh by the way it's november 10th

[18:26] what's your name again

[18:28] uh i don't remember you voted for me

[18:30] right okay next

[18:31] and then they don't really deliver on

[18:32] any of those things and what happened

[18:34] what has happened

[18:35] is our families uh have gotten a lot of

[18:38] lip service for the past couple of

[18:40] uh generations and no action

[18:43] families are under more pressure today

[18:46] than they were

[18:47] 10 years ago 20 years ago 30 years ago

[18:49] the total fertility rate in this country

[18:51] is

[18:52] well below the replacement rate in this

[18:53] country why

[18:55] because there are a few fewer marriages

[18:56] taking place as a percentage of the

[18:58] population the people who are getting

[19:00] married or having fewer children

[19:01] you know the with the number just came

[19:03] out a week or two ago

[19:05] the total fertility rate is 1.65 births

[19:08] per

[19:09] female in this country the which is the

[19:11] lowest it has ever been

[19:13] in the united states 2.1 is uh is the

[19:16] replacement rate

[19:17] and you cannot uh support a family of

[19:20] four

[19:20] on a single median wage in this country

[19:24] that was possible as late as 1989 or

[19:27] 1990 so within

[19:28] the living memory of almost everybody uh

[19:31] in the

[19:31] in this room that fundamentally changes

[19:34] things like if

[19:35] you have to it says nothing about desire

[19:38] but if you

[19:38] have to have two people working to

[19:41] support a family of four that makes it

[19:42] harder to have kids just raises the bar

[19:45] and this is a place where there has been

[19:49] a conscious decision maybe with

[19:51] subconscious decision for some people

[19:53] to say well we would rather

[19:56] chase a free trade deal with china

[19:59] and we don't care what happens to our

[20:01] families and if american families pay

[20:03] the price

[20:04] hey free markets uh and that is

[20:07] something that we're going to have to

[20:08] reckon with because it has a direct

[20:10] material and cultural impact on the

[20:13] future of the country we're starting to

[20:14] feel that now yeah a family first agenda

[20:17] has been one that has not been put on

[20:18] the forefront

[20:19] for quite honestly some time but it's

[20:22] always

[20:22] given in slogans and in meetings

[20:26] but what has been the big policy

[20:28] accomplishment for the pro family agenda

[20:30] since 1980

[20:32] i mean maybe a couple tax credits here

[20:34] and there maybe

[20:35] right when you look at and the reason is

[20:37] because most families don't have

[20:38] lobbyists in washington dc

[20:40] so we're going to continue this

[20:41] conversation backstage on the podcast

[20:44] uh later in the day but eric in closing

[20:47] what can people individually do as they

[20:49] listen to this rebroadcast throughout

[20:51] to actually be able to take those risks

[20:54] and pursue the virtue your book that was

[20:56] translated in dozens of languages

[20:58] the bonhoeffer book was about a risk

[21:01] taker

[21:02] i mean that's that's not the only

[21:04] description of him but i think that's a

[21:05] fair way right

[21:07] and if you guys don't know the story of

[21:08] bonhoeffer it's incredible and eric has

[21:10] wrote the magnum opus on it

[21:12] and so eric what does that look like

[21:14] well i think

[21:15] this is the there's an irony at the

[21:17] heart of

[21:18] reality um if you

[21:22] know that god is real

[21:26] then you're a fool not to trust him

[21:30] and when you trust god it looks

[21:34] to people who don't know that god is

[21:37] real

[21:38] like you're being a wild man

[21:41] like how can you do that that is crazy

[21:45] don't you understand you need to be

[21:47] careful you need to have more fear don't

[21:49] you understand what

[21:50] what you're doing but if you're

[21:52] following god who

[21:54] looks invisible to many people you just

[21:57] look like a

[21:58] wild risk taker but you know

[22:02] that it is exactly the opposite

[22:06] there is nothing safer

[22:10] than following god so if you trust

[22:14] if god's but i mean think of that irony

[22:17] so to an atheist or somebody

[22:19] they look at you like you're that's

[22:21] crazy but you know

[22:22] no actually not fearing god and

[22:25] following

[22:26] god is crazy and scary and dangerous and

[22:29] stupid

[22:30] so when you're talking about something

[22:32] like you say hey we're americans and we

[22:34] want to trade and we want to grow our

[22:36] economy

[22:36] so let's trade with china right nice

[22:39] idea

[22:40] what if china is using slave

[22:44] labor or what if china is using

[22:48] the money that comes into their economy

[22:50] to oppress

[22:51] human beings to destroy religious

[22:53] liberty you then

[22:54] have a choice and you have to say if i

[22:57] honor god in my decisions

[23:01] and say we will not trade with you china

[23:04] unless you change this

[23:05] and this and this and this and we will

[23:07] not compromise

[23:09] you trust god to say i will honor you

[23:13] in that commitment and i will bless you

[23:17] far more than i would have

[23:20] if you would have prostituted yourself

[23:22] and said

[23:23] i will do anything for the bottom

[23:26] line for my company nike or apple if you

[23:30] don't have that kind of virtue

[23:31] at the heart of capitalism if you don't

[23:35] have that kind of virtue at the heart of

[23:36] liberty

[23:37] the whole thing falls apart so that's

[23:40] the strange irony

[23:41] somebody like bonhoeffer was doing the

[23:44] only

[23:45] safe and good thing but the people who

[23:48] didn't see

[23:49] why he looked like a crazy

[23:53] wild man and that's the risk we have to

[23:55] take in this thing we call reality

[23:58] well we're unfortunately short on time

[24:00] and so we're going to keep this

[24:00] conversation going as i keep mentioning

[24:02] if you guys want to check those out

[24:04] you guys can subscribe to our podcast um

[24:06] and then later today

[24:07] we're back with secretary of state mike

[24:09] pompeo but let's give it up for our

[24:11] amazing panelists here

[24:12] and uh thank you guys so much thank you

[24:16] charlie

[24:20] you