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Charlie Kirk is the Founder and President of Turning Point USA, the largest and fastest growing conservative youth activist organization in the country with over 250,000 student members, over 150 full-time staff, and a presence on over 2,000 high school and college campuses nationwide. Charlie is also the Chairman of Students for Trump, which aims to activate one million new college voters on campuses in battleground states in the lead up to the 2020 presidential election. His social media reaches over 100 million people per month and according to Axios, he is one of the "top 10 most engaged" Twitter handles in the world. He is also the host of “The Charlie Kirk Show,” which regularly ranks among the top news shows on Apple podcast charts.
Charlie Kirk and Michael Knowles Debate Catholic Authority, the Papacy, and Evangelizing for Christ
Charlie Kirk and Michael Knowles engage in a spirited theological debate about Catholic evangelization, church authority, and the role of the papacy. When a student asks Knowles for advice on spreading love for the Eucharist, the conversation quickly turns into a deeper discussion about whether the goal should be bringing people to Catholicism or to Christ, the interpretive authority of the church versus Scripture, and the challenges posed by controversial papal statements. Kirk challenges the merit of papal authority when the current Pope promotes views on climate change, homosexuality, and economics that seem contrary to traditional teaching, while Knowles defends the structure of Catholic authority and the distinction between infallible ex cathedra pronouncements and personal papal opinions.
When a student asks Michael Knowles for advice on starting a project to spread love for the Eucharist, Knowles offers encouragement that stands in contrast to his usual response to content creators. He notes that most people ask him about starting podcasts, and his typical advice is "don't" because too many exist. However, this particular mission earns his enthusiastic support.
Knowles recommends beginning with the prayer of St. Thomas Aquinas, which the saint would recite before study, writing, or speaking, asking God to illumine his darkened mind. He emphasizes that prayer should be the first resort, not the last. Knowles then points out one of the advantages of Catholic tradition: "We don't need to reinvent the wheel every year. We got 2,000 years of people who are much smarter than you and I who have thought this out, who have debated these questions."
His advice is simple: tell the story, convey the greatest story ever told, and rely on the deposit of faith and the magisterium as an interpretive guide. Do it with sincerity and your best effort, and it will be wonderful.
Charlie Kirk's Intervention: Christ Over Catholicism
Charlie Kirk interjects with what he describes as an important edit to Knowles's advice. As an Evangelical who loves Catholics, Kirk supports the evangelization effort but insists the goal should be to bring people to Jesus, not to Catholicism specifically. When Knowles asks what the difference is, Kirk clarifies that while they're not contradictory, the goal should not be bringing people to a specific sect of Christianity but to the Cross itself.
Knowles responds by asking about the fullness of truth and the universal faith. Kirk pushes back, asking whether someone is a Christian if they don't believe in Mariology or transubstantiation. Knowles suggests they would be "a little confused" without those beliefs, but Kirk maintains that bringing people to Catholicism should be a means to the ultimate end: bringing people to Jesus.
The Question of Interpretive Authority
Knowles raises a fundamental question about what happens when there are disagreements over important theological matters. He references the legend of St. Nicholas at the Council of Nicaea, who supposedly smacked the heresiarch Arius for denying the divinity of Christ. This story has inspired a popular meme showing St. Nicholas with the caption: "I've come here to give presents to children and to punch heretics in the face, and I'm all out of presents."
While Knowles doesn't believe the story literally happened, he uses it to illustrate a serious point: when someone has a question about something critically important like the divinity of Christ, there must be an interpretive framework to resolve it.
Kirk acknowledges this but notes that evangelicals hold nine out of ten Catholic dogmas. He affirms that Catholics are Christian, even while having fundamental disagreements with Mariology, transubstantiation, and especially the papacy.
The Papacy Problem
Kirk's biggest theological obstacle to Catholicism is the papacy itself. He cannot accept "this Marxist who calls himself the head of your church being a representation of Christ Our Lord." As someone who openly loves the Catholic impact on the world and judges by the fruit, Kirk sees "very Marxist fruit" from the current Pope.
He questions why the specific process and mechanism of papal authority should be given more merit than the local church or the word of God itself. Even if the answer is that the papacy provides final resolution on interpretive questions, Kirk challenges whether any practicing Catholic can look at the current Pope and say "this is the best that my religion has to offer."
The Italian Spirit Defense
Knowles responds with humor, suggesting Kirk is "thinking too much about it" and needs to adopt "the Italian spirit." This approach involves assuming the Pope was misinterpreted when he says something questionable: "Oh well, maybe the Papa was misinterpreted, you know, it's no big deal, forget about it."
Kirk refuses to accept this casual dismissal, particularly on issues like homosexuality where the Pope has been "way more open," as well as climate change and other topics. He asks why he should care at all what "that guy from Argentina has to say."
Knowles draws a parallel: just as Kirk cares what his pastor says, Catholics care what the Pope says. Kirk counters that if his pastor starts saying crazy things, he finds a new pastor. Knowles points out this leads to division in the church, whereas historically, when pastors disagreed, they would go to an elder, bishop, or higher authority.
Unity as a Mark of the Church
Knowles explains that one of the marks of the church is unity, so constant schism cannot be the solution. He quotes Hilaire Belloc, who said one must take on faith that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be, "but for those who don't believe that, one mark of its divine institution is that no other institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight."
The argument is that corruption of individuals, bad popes, and institutional failings are actually evidence of divine institution—because so many other ecclesiastical communities appear and then quickly disappear, often when their pastor leaves.
Kirk responds that with the Bible as a bedrock, a church will last. This prompts Knowles to ask a fundamental question: who canonized the Bible? Where did it come from? "Our Lord didn't leave us a Bible, he left us a church."
The Canon Controversy
Kirk argues that as part of His Godship, God is the author of all 66 books. Knowles catches Kirk trying to slip in the Protestant canon number, leading to a discussion about why Catholics acknowledge books that Jews themselves don't consider divinely inspired. The keepers of the Torah don't agree with the Catholic canon on books like the Wisdom of Ben Sirach and First and Second Maccabees.
Knowles explains that the Deuterocanonical books in the Catholic Bible are based on the Septuagint, while the Masoretic texts that came later form the basis of Protestant Bibles and more recent Catholic translations. When Kirk asks why Catholics don't follow rabbinical Jewish teaching on this, Knowles points out they're simply different religions.
Kirk suggests he knows the real answer: those books allow for and provide justification for many Catholic practices. But he doesn't want to go deeper into this debate.
A Call for a Better Catholic Church
Kirk concludes by stating he believes the world is better because of faithful Catholics. He praises the courage of the Catholic diocese in Arizona on Proposition 139 (an abortion measure), while evangelicals remained silent. He wants a better Catholic church.
However, Kirk personally could not be part of an institution whose figurehead has a worldview "so corrupted and opposite of what I think the Bible teaches." He wouldn't give that person the benefit of the doubt—he would leave.
Knowles compares this to being part of the United States when you disagree with the president. You don't leave the country. Kirk clarifies he doesn't take religious orders from Joe Biden. Knowles notes that people rebel against corrupt institutions they don't like all the time, but an unjust Pope "is not a Pope."
Ex Cathedra and Papal Infallibility
Kirk presses on the apparent contradiction: if you pick and choose what the Pope says—liking some statements but ignoring others—isn't that like a buffet line approach to authority?
Knowles explains that papal authority means the Pope speaks infallibly when speaking ex cathedra on faith and morals. The Pope can say things that aren't infallible, and climate change doesn't fall under that category.
Kirk asks when the Pope last spoke ex cathedra. Knowles estimates it was probably Pope Pius IX, about 150 years ago. Kirk seizes on this: if there's been no functional exercise of infallible teaching in 150 years, what's the use of having a Pope?
Knowles clarifies that the Pope is the leader of the church, the figurehead. Kirk responds that when your top leader "is not good," that's a problem. Knowles quotes Scripture: "None is good but God." Kirk agrees everyone falls short of the glory of God, but notes Catholic moral teaching recognizes gradations of sin. Pope John Paul II was objectively good in a way that's totally different from controversial figures.
Defending Pope Francis
Kirk notes the irony that he's forcing Knowles to defend Pope Francis. He accuses the current Pope of the sin of heresy against the word of God, though he doesn't have specific quotes in front of him. His concerns include: climate change positions that are "insane," being "way too relaxed" on homosexuality, and teachings on communism influenced by Liberation Theology.
Knowles counters that Pope Francis has said God cannot bless sin and called gay marriage "a work of the father of lies." He also notes the Pope has explicitly said he's not a communist.
Kirk points out that Obama also said he wasn't a socialist, suggesting such denials don't settle the matter. He acknowledges that if he had every papal quote in front of him, Knowles would be able to defend them or at least make the point that the Pope wasn't speaking infallibly. Knowles agrees he wouldn't defend every report but could make that distinction.
The conversation ends with both moving to the next question, having aired their fundamental disagreement about ecclesiastical authority, the role of the papacy, and whether evangelization should focus on bringing people to Christ or to the fullness of Catholic truth.
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