0:00
Do you believe that being here in
0:02
America here is a right or a privilege?
0:05
Is a right and a privilege.
0:07
You have a right to be here.
0:09
Yes. I believe anybody has a free a
0:11
right to movement to wherever they want.
0:15
So you would get rid of all borders?
0:17
Yes.
0:19
So when you land from a international
0:21
flight at JFK airport, no passport
0:24
checks?
0:24
Nope.
0:27
Okay. Thank you for so bluntly telling
0:31
us your view.
0:31
I'm a dirty commie. So yeah.
0:34
Yeah.
0:35
What is your definition of socialism?
0:37
Well, in the theoretical, the abstract,
0:39
or the practical,
0:41
uh, take your pick.
0:42
So, socialism as written by Markx is
0:44
when the workers own the means of
0:46
production.
0:46
Exactly. In the actual practical, it's
0:49
when a small group of very powerful
0:52
pernitious people are able to control
0:55
the rest of the population under the
0:56
guise of helping the many when in
0:59
reality it helps the few and you get
1:01
dictatorship, murder and slaughter and
1:03
the revolution never actually comes. It
1:05
ends in a 100 million people dead over
1:07
the last 100 years.
1:08
What about American companies that
1:10
function as worker cooperatives which
1:12
are effectively socialism in practice?
1:14
that that that that is partially the
1:16
some of the tenants of Marks. Of course
1:17
it is. Like Publix grocery stores in
1:19
Florida.
1:20
Okay. So you're in favor of worker
1:22
cooperatives then?
1:23
Yeah. If it's done voluntarily. That's
1:24
the key. Exactly. Voluntary. For
1:26
example, in a church, if you go to a
1:28
church and everyone says we're going to
1:30
go share this meal, that's a voluntary
1:32
cooperation. But socialism is not hinge
1:34
on volunteerism. It's using a gun. It's
1:38
by force you must be part of this. By
1:40
force you must give us your money. by
1:42
force you're going to be part of our
1:44
cooperative. Volunteerism is something
1:46
we all support. It's when you start to
1:48
use the heavy hand of the state that we
1:50
start to objective.
1:51
I agree. I'm not here to defend Cuba or
1:54
China, the USSR or any of that
1:56
or Vietnam or
1:57
no
1:58
Laos or Cambodia.
2:00
So
2:00
or Rhodesia or Zimbabwe.
2:02
So basically if we can agree that
2:04
voluntary
2:06
worker ownership of the means production
2:08
if they so choose,
2:09
okay,
2:10
it it can work. It also can fall apart.
2:12
There's there's plenty of instances
2:13
where it does because the problem is
2:15
this is that the incentive structure
2:17
sometimes for innovation with voluntary
2:18
cooperatives is not always very strong
2:20
or robust. But yes, in a market you're
2:22
allowed, for example, I have no problem
2:25
with the Amish living the way they do in
2:26
Pennsylvania.
2:27
Neither do I.
2:28
Yes. However, I do have a problem saying
2:30
we're going to force you to live like
2:31
the Amish. That's where we disagree.
2:33
I I No, I agree with
2:34
Well, I'm saying but a where socialism
2:36
has played out over the last 100 years.
2:38
Yes. Some people have interpreted
2:39
socialism as so for you as a true
2:42
socialist, you should go get a bunch of
2:44
your buddies and friends, go out into
2:46
the countryside and go live as
2:47
socialist, see how long you last.
2:50
Would you would you be in favor of tax
2:54
cuts and loopholes to people who want to
2:56
start a worker cooperative and exist as
2:58
a worker cooperative in a market?
2:59
I mean, I would give tax cuts for all
3:01
people, but if they want to do that
3:02
voluntarily in a market economy, knock
3:04
yourself out.
3:05
Okay, so we've agreed. I think so. But
3:09
but here's the point. The question, will
3:11
you though as a socialist go out and
3:13
live your value system? Will you go and
3:16
you know say, "Hey, I'm not going to own
3:17
any stuff. 10 friends of I are going to
3:19
go. We're going to grow our own."
3:20
There's a difference between personal
3:21
property and private property when it
3:23
comes to socialist theory.
3:25
Okay. So, but personal property is
3:27
things like your toothbrush, your
3:29
clothes. I would even go so far as to
3:31
say your house. The
3:33
Can I have two houses?
3:34
It depends.
3:36
It depends. It's that's a that's a
3:39
so if I have a second house you might
3:40
just take you might just take it
3:41
complicated question that I necessarily
3:42
don't really have an answer for that
3:44
complicated if you earned it you get it
3:46
not complicated that's our view right
3:48
you get what you earn and and the
3:50
problem with socialism is that it is
3:52
against my favorite word in the English
3:54
language earn we believe that you should
3:56
be able to receive what you earn
3:57
I agree with you as a socialist I think
3:59
you should be able to keep what you earn
4:02
marxist
4:05
Marx's critique
4:07
about the hyper wealthy stealing the
4:09
wages of pe of hardworking people who
4:12
are trying to earn.
4:13
Let me tell you what Markx got right and
4:14
then let me tell you where I think he
4:16
was wrong because I've actually read and
4:17
studied Markx. Markx is correct that
4:20
market forces can alienate people from
4:22
their humanity that he was very right
4:24
about that and you walk into like your
4:26
average corporation sometimes like the
4:28
most soulless place you ever walk into.
4:30
What he was wrong about though was the
4:32
state of human nature. That we believe
4:34
humanity, we as conservatives and
4:36
Christians were generally not so good as
4:38
human beings. Markx believed humans were
4:40
really good and that we're being
4:42
polluted and contaminated by the
4:44
societal forces around us. Racism,
4:46
misogyn misogyny, capitalism, all these
4:49
forces are c. So we have to get we have
4:51
to strip down all of these external
4:53
forces and we'll be able to live as you
4:55
know as in wonderful harmony in the
4:57
hills. And
4:58
I would agree with that.
4:59
Okay. Okay. And so that's we think
5:01
that's insane that human beings are
5:03
naturally good. Secondly, the idea
5:05
wait
5:07
Mark's saying that what he wasn't saying
5:08
that people are naturally good once you
5:11
remove all these things. The fact that
5:13
racism, sexism, all these other isms
5:15
exist is proof of the fact that humans
5:17
yes are do have a tendency towards evil
5:20
bad behavior.
5:21
That's not what Rouso believed. So So
5:22
Rouso was the foundational baseline for
5:24
Markx. Right. So John
5:27
Yeah. Rouso. So Rouso was the one who
5:29
argued that it's human beings that are
5:32
naturally good and we don't have a
5:33
proclivity towards this stuff and what
5:36
we will agree is that there is a problem
5:38
with widespread alienation of human
5:40
beings in market forces. It's a big
5:41
problem.
5:43
Yeah. That and people are alienated by
5:45
by the by capital
5:46
in not but not definitionally. Some
5:48
people find a lot of purpose in their
5:49
work though. That's where I disagree
5:51
with Markx is that some companies are
5:53
able to create robust environments where
5:55
people are happy and they're they're u
5:57
connected. It's not it's not a fault of
5:59
the system. It's a fault of some
6:01
applications that happen in the system.
6:03
Okay. Then we just disagree on our
6:04
interpretations of Marx.
6:05
So I I I guess the the final question
6:08
though is you as a socialist can you
6:10
point to a single time where this theory
6:13
worked?
6:14
The Zapatistas in Mexico in 1991 when
6:16
NAFTA went into effect. How long did
6:19
that last?
6:20
To this very day, it is it is still a
6:22
region today
6:24
and they don't own anything.
6:26
They collectively own their their
6:28
property.
6:30
Okay. I have to look at that example. I
6:32
mean, I I would point to the
6:33
the Zapatistas. Rojava in Syria is an
6:36
autonomous zone that has existed
6:38
autonomously in spite of the Syrian
6:40
civil war that's that's been going on
6:44
there. And again, I would point to
6:47
American and intern and other uh
6:49
businesses in other countries that
6:50
function as worker cooperatives. That's
6:52
socialism at work. Granted, they are in
6:55
a capitalist capitalist. They are in a
6:58
capitalist market.
6:59
How do you reconcile the Soviet Union,
7:03
Chinese Communist Party, Pulp Pot? How
7:06
do you reconcile the failures of
7:07
socialism last hundred years?
7:09
I just disagree with their
7:11
interpretation of socialism. I don't
7:12
think that you should wield
7:14
authoritarian power in order to uh force
7:17
people into socialism.
7:18
Here's what we believe and we'll close
7:19
on this. Every time it will be tried at
7:21
scale, a very bad person will assume
7:23
control under the guise of socialism and
7:26
become a permanent dictator.
7:27
I disagree with the at scale. I would
7:29
argue that our li systems are also
7:32
examples of socialism. You literally
7:33
come in I can literally walk into Haj's
7:37
library over here, check out a book for
7:38
free, and they trust me to come bring it
7:40
back.
7:41
It's not free. Someone paid for that
7:42
book. It's called the taxpayers, so it's
7:44
not free. The building has to be built.
7:45
Someone has to pay for the plumbing and
7:47
pay for the electricity, pay for the
7:48
heating. Someone has to pay for the
7:49
workers. Number two, if there is a
7:51
disagreement within the library and you
7:52
steal the book, what happens?
7:55
You don't check out in the right
7:56
process. You Oh, you have an overdue
7:58
fine. So, there's a cost to it.
8:00
You see, the library is actually a very
8:02
capitalist system because if you don't
8:04
rewind the old VHS,
8:05
librarians who say that over overdue
8:07
fines actually don't even work and they
8:09
don't even provide really good
8:10
incentives. they still exist. But the
8:12
point if you would say the library is a
8:15
a a hallmark of socialism, the librarian
8:18
is still in charge. I want to get the
8:19
next question. Thank you very much.
8:20
Appreciate for your time. Thank you.
