Charlie Kirk on the Death Penalty: Why Justice Is Pro-Life

[00:00] believe in putting criminals in jail,

[00:01] right? Yes.

[00:02] [Music]

[00:12] >> Hallelujah.

[00:14] [Music]

[00:16] Hallelujah.

[00:18] [Music]

[00:20] >> Cuz you believe criminals in jail,

[00:21] right? Yes. Which is a taking of their

[00:23] rights,

[00:23] >> not their life.

[00:24] >> Their whole life is completely changed.

[00:25] So I guess it's also an insult to the

[00:27] victim, isn't it? saying that your life

[00:28] doesn't matter so much that your

[00:29] murderer can keep on living but you

[00:31] yourself aren't living. It's actually

[00:32] devalues the value of the victim or the

[00:34] victims actually in a lot of times God

[00:36] repeated in all five books of the Torah

[00:38] you take a life your life will be taken

[00:40] to the consistency argument if there is

[00:42] a baby here you know in the womb that

[00:44] baby has done nothing wrong whereas a

[00:45] guy who went and shot up a school did a

[00:47] lot wrong and so the only answer is to

[00:49] say we value human life so much that you

[00:52] don't get to keep on living if you take

[00:54] a precious human life it's actually an

[00:56] explicitly pro-life position because

[00:57] it's honoring the dead and honoring the

[00:59] victim so much that it's not just one to

[01:02] discarded. That's, oh, it's not just a

[01:03] clump of cells. Because they're like,

[01:05] oh, you know, it's just a bunch of clump

[01:06] of cells that got shot up at a school.

[01:08] It doesn't really matter. Go put him in

[01:09] a jail. Where we say, no, that's a life

[01:11] you took and you don't get get to keep

[01:12] on having breath if you go take another

[01:14] precious human life.

[01:16] Jack Pobic, we are back live human

[01:19] events daily. We're in

[01:22] Phoenix, Arizona. Almost uh almost went

[01:25] with my normal, but you know, we are not

[01:27] living in normal times here. And we were

[01:29] in the Charlie Kirk studio. Charlie

[01:31] Kirk's seat remains empty as Charlie is

[01:34] on assignment with the Lord. I wanted to

[01:37] bring in Blake Nef here because Blake

[01:39] just played that clip of Charlie going

[01:41] through

[01:43] his uh this you know this this clip we

[01:46] found uh I think it's a recent clip as

[01:48] recent as we can find I guess of Charlie

[01:50] on the death penalty and he made makes a

[01:53] very interesting point there and I know

[01:55] you worked with him on a lot of these

[01:57] points and

[02:00] he said the death penalty is an

[02:01] explicitly prolife position and So for a

[02:06] lot of people out there, they'll say,

[02:07] "Well, life is the opposite of death, so

[02:10] how could the death penalty be

[02:12] pro-life?" Can you can you unpack what

[02:14] he's getting at there?

[02:15] >> Yeah. Well, he was saying there is like

[02:17] it's almost it's disrespectful to a

[02:18] victim to say like you can take life

[02:21] endlessly without consequence that

[02:23] you're basically saying, you know, to

[02:26] some extent we view criminal

[02:28] punishments, they're not merely a

[02:29] deterrent to future things. They are

[02:31] also you they're sort of a tariff a

[02:34] compensatory thing to reflect like the

[02:36] harm that you have done and we can't

[02:38] undo a harm that is done when you kill

[02:40] somebody but we can signal that like

[02:43] what you did was an atrocious act and

[02:46] you know one of the oldest principles is

[02:48] you know if you harm somebody some harm

[02:50] will be done to you in compensation for

[02:52] this and if you're going to say that you

[02:56] can murder somebody and the compensation

[02:58] for that is you do 5 years and then

[03:00] you're out on parole. That is sending

[03:02] the message that a life taken is not

[03:04] really that big of a harm, is it?

[03:06] >> So, it's about the value of life in

[03:09] society. So, it's it's it's basically

[03:11] saying that society should have a

[03:13] pro-life position that and and this is

[03:16] actually consistent. So, because I hear

[03:18] this a lot when people talk, say, "What

[03:19] about abortion?" I say, "Well, that's an

[03:21] innocent life." Obvious. But there is a

[03:23] difference between an innocent life,

[03:26] life of a child, an unborn baby,

[03:28] pre-born baby. I think I think on board

[03:30] is still fine. I know there's like some

[03:31] some back and forth on that, but there's

[03:33] a difference between that and a criminal

[03:36] and in in the worst case possible a

[03:38] hardened like like murderer or rapist um

[03:41] or you know someone who's done something

[03:42] to a child. These just obviously not the

[03:45] same thing morally at all. Yeah. Not in

[03:47] the slightest. And it's like brought up

[03:49] I feel like it's only brought up by

[03:50] people trying to do like a gotcha to

[03:52] manipulate you and like the it always

[03:54] comes up with the pro life thing. It

[03:55] always comes up with the pro-life thing

[03:56] where they're like, "Well, you just

[03:58] don't think the unborn life has any

[03:59] value and you just want to do any gotcha

[04:01] to continue doing abortions cuz you like

[04:03] that." Like, it's always seemed insane

[04:06] to me like, "Okay, is there tension

[04:07] between like, oh, you say life matters,

[04:09] so we shouldn't abort people, but like

[04:11] you're okay with the death penalty

[04:12] versus I guess the opposite is like it's

[04:14] bad for the left position is it's bad to

[04:17] execute criminals, but it's good to

[04:18] execute babies, which seems to have a

[04:21] lot more tension in it to me, right?

[04:23] like I'd love to just, you know, push

[04:24] back on that. So, so this is also and

[04:28] and walk us back here because I I keep

[04:30] getting I'm being blown up by the media

[04:32] today because the media doesn't

[04:33] understand any of this and they'll say,

[04:34] "Wait a minute. How can you say that you

[04:37] forgive Charlie's killer?" That's what

[04:39] Erica said yesterday. How can you say

[04:43] that you forgive, but then you also want

[04:46] justice to be done, the ultimate justice

[04:50] be done? because the media doesn't

[04:51] understand Christianity, doesn't

[04:52] understand any of this is very confused

[04:55] and they see opposition there.

[04:56] >> Yeah. Well, again, first of all, this is

[04:59] only ever brought up in this context.

[05:00] Whereas, it seems like they should

[05:02] rationally apply this to anything that

[05:04] we do like, oh, someone steals from you,

[05:07] we should forgive those people as well.

[05:09] And yet, okay, we do have to punish

[05:11] thieves. And you know, just in the last

[05:13] hour on the main Charlie show, Benny was

[05:16] making a great point. You know there is

[05:17] our personal duty to forgive as

[05:19] Christians as believers and then there

[05:21] is the sword that is carried by the

[05:24] government that's public authority. You

[05:25] know that's what St. Paul talks about in

[05:26] the letter to the Romans that the state

[05:29] has been given the sword by God to do

[05:31] justice and like that is why we must

[05:33] obey you know just authority because

[05:35] they have been empowered by God for the

[05:37] benefit of everyone and you know that's

[05:41] actually a great progress a thing that

[05:42] like Christianity embraced and built

[05:43] upon is that old forms of justice were

[05:46] based around revenge that a wrong done

[05:49] to you is compensated by basically

[05:52] getting revenge from the the wronged

[05:53] party uh like kind of ancient pagan in

[05:56] like Germanic laws a lot like that, you

[05:58] know, you'd even see that where there

[05:59] actually is no government prosecution of

[06:02] offenses at all. There's just, oh, I am

[06:04] wrong, so I pursue a suit against

[06:06] somebody and like I challenge them to a

[06:08] duel or some such and like that's how

[06:09] you would like receive something from

[06:11] the household.

[06:12] >> Exactly. Yeah. You have you have wear

[06:13] guild they would call it like man, you

[06:15] know, blood money essentially.

[06:16] >> Or the blood money. Right. Right. And

[06:18] you know we have moved beyond that where

[06:20] we say there are there is a authority

[06:22] that is above you know vengeance that is

[06:25] its job is to do justice impartially and

[06:29] that is who will have to act here that

[06:31] we will have an authority our government

[06:33] that will say this person did an

[06:35] atrocious act that our society cannot

[06:38] condone and it is Erica Kirk's duty as a

[06:42] Christian believer to forgive her

[06:44] persecutors the people who took away the

[06:45] man who took away her husband But is

[06:47] that it is the state's responsibility to

[06:49] say we cannot have assassins in our

[06:52] country. Assassins must be punished. And

[06:55] you know

[06:57] >> Larry Arn even the assassin will die.

[06:59] >> Yeah. It is not Erica Kirk's job to

[07:01] decide what the assassin's punishment

[07:02] is. It would be

[07:04] >> well this is actually why I mean and and

[07:06] to speak in generalities. This is why

[07:09] victims are not on juries.

[07:11] >> Yes. That's why victims shouldn't be on

[07:12] juries. And you'll see in more primitive

[07:14] forms of justice they do it that way. In

[07:16] Saudi Arabia in Saudi Arabia, the

[07:19] punishment of a murderer is on actually

[07:20] like the family members of those who are

[07:22] afflicted and they can decide to punish

[07:24] them lightly or put them to death.

[07:26] >> And I'm looking at the clock. We were

[07:28] chatting beforehand. You did some

[07:29] research into the Utah system. We're

[07:32] currently in the Utah system. There are

[07:34] no federal charges as of yet. That could

[07:36] happen. There could be superseding. You

[07:38] know, we'll see. But in the Utah system,

[07:40] how does the death penalty work? So in

[07:42] the Utah system, they have the state

[07:44] must announce in advance if they are

[07:46] seeking the death penalty, which they've

[07:47] already done.

[07:48] >> And then you do a murder trial, normal

[07:50] murder trial. Uh let's assume there is a

[07:53] conviction or a guilty plea, but we'll

[07:54] assume goes to trial, convicted, and

[07:58] then you go to a penalty phase and it's

[08:01] the same jury by default. There's

[08:03] exceptions that can come into play, but

[08:04] basically it's the same jury. The person

[08:06] can the defendant can wave having it

[08:08] done by a jury. They can have a judge

[08:10] rule on it instead. Although it appears

[08:12] the prosecution must agree to this. So

[08:14] they could in theory veto it and say no

[08:16] jury must decide. And then the jury has

[08:19] to unanimously agree there is an

[08:20] aggravating factor. It cannot be a

[08:22] default punishment for murder. There has

[08:24] to be aggravation which we talked about

[08:25] last week.

[08:26] >> And this this is what we brought up last

[08:27] week that children present

[08:29] >> and I believe that's another charge.

[08:30] >> Other people were in peril. Yeah.

[08:32] There's

[08:32] >> so they they made it an aggravating

[08:33] factor plus a separate charge.

[08:35] >> Yeah. They added charges as well but

[08:36] they need the aggravating factors on

[08:37] murder and there's like 13 different

[08:39] options. They were emphasizing I think

[08:41] three different ones a lot. Uh so they

[08:43] have to unanimously agree there is an

[08:44] aggravating factor and then they must

[08:46] unanimously agree on imposing the death

[08:48] penalty if they deadlock life in prison.

[08:50] So this is it's like a trial after the

[08:54] trial

[08:55] >> sort of. Yes.

[08:55] >> In the sense that in the sense that

[08:57] there's a full trial conviction

[08:58] non-conviction where of course murder

[09:00] will you know murder in the first would

[09:02] be or whatever they call it in Utah will

[09:04] be you know the highest uh with agreeing

[09:07] factors will be the highest charge as

[09:09] long as as well as the le lesser

[09:11] charges. Uh but then if and likely but

[09:15] if um if that conviction goes proceeds

[09:19] then the same 12 plus with two

[09:21] alternates of course of 14 would go to a

[09:24] separate phase where it's almost like

[09:26] there's another set of hearings before

[09:28] the death penalty. And I believe it does

[09:30] appear I do believe by the way and I

[09:32] know this for other states I'm not as

[09:34] familiar with Utah but I do believe that

[09:35] one of the differences there is that uh

[09:38] the victim impact statements do come

[09:39] into play. So you would have victims who

[09:43] can come forward at that point.

[09:45] >> Yeah. I'm looking at Utah's law right

[09:46] now. In the capital sentencing

[09:47] proceedings, evidence may be presented

[09:49] on the nature of the crime. Uh the

[09:51] defendant's character, background,

[09:52] history, mental and physical will speak

[09:55] for the victim and the impact of the

[09:56] crime on the victim's family and

[09:58] community and then other facts in

[10:02] might might be called.

[10:03] >> And so all of this could come into play,

[10:05] >> which I mean, I'm just going to say it.

[10:06] There there is a chance that Erica Kirk

[10:09] herself could be called in that phase.

[10:11] It is very possible.

[10:12] >> And by the way, you yourself

[10:14] >> as but in the first phase

[10:15] >> as an eyewitness,

[10:17] >> but there's also a lot of eyewitnesses.

[10:19] >> There there's a lot I I don't know that

[10:20] I have anything special that I I can

[10:22] certainly testify to Charlie's character

[10:23] and how heinous this was.

[10:24] >> Well, I mean, just in the in the first

[10:26] phase because you were an eyewitness to

[10:27] the crime.

[10:28] >> That is true. That is true.

[10:29] >> Um, so there's there's there's a lot of

[10:31] there's a lot of factors. Obviously,

[10:32] that's all up to the prosecutors. um we

[10:35] all saw it live. So it's you know it's

[10:36] you know I I would say being there in

[10:38] person has more value than um for from

[10:41] an evidentiary perspective than watching

[10:42] it on on live stream. Um certainly you

[10:45] know they can choose as many possibly

[10:46] they don't want someone who worked for

[10:48] Charlie just because it gives you that

[10:49] extra degree of impartiality. Um plus

[10:51] but there was law enforcement there uh

[10:53] there you know obviously Charlie

[10:54] security and and some campus security

[10:56] that you might want from from that

[10:58] perspective. Um, this is I'm glad that

[11:02] we talked about this though today

[11:03] because the media just doesn't get this

[11:06] stuff. They totally don't understand

[11:07] this stuff. They don't understand

[11:09] Christianity. They never did. They never

[11:11] try to. And and to your point, whenever

[11:13] they do attempt to, it's to sort of like

[11:15] use the play these gotcha games on, oh

[11:18] well, the Bible says welcome the

[11:19] stranger and you're for border security.

[11:22] And it's like, yeah, they don't say

[11:23] you're you should allow them to invade

[11:25] your country. It's that it's that meme

[11:26] we've all seen where it's just like I

[11:28] have nothing but contempt for your

[11:29] beliefs, but no, your Bible says you

[11:31] have to do this.

[11:32] >> No, it's ridiculous. We're coming up on

[11:33] a break here, but we're digging into

[11:35] this because I can already see this

[11:37] fracture going on, and I I'd love to

[11:40] just be able to talk about how beautiful

[11:42] and moving the service was yesterday.

[11:44] But, but no, no, I see people trying to

[11:47] twist it and use it for their own

[11:48] devices, and I'm not going to let that

[11:50] happen. Jack Pobic, Blake Nev, Human

[11:52] Events Daily, Real America's Voice.