Breaking news tonight. Did he have help? The Charlie Kirk shooting suspects, friends, and furries tonight under the microscope. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. [Music] I heard the gunshot go off and that was when I started hearing um a bunch of heard crying and screaming to get down. Um I was terrified. >> He thought it out. He planned it out that much that he knew he had to change clothes to blend in >> and it hit him in the in the um the corateed artery. Um and that caused a bleed out almost immediately >> tonight as the defendant Robinson is facing formal charges in Utah County court. Interesting. Not federal charges, state charges. But the death penalty is the death penalty is the death penalty whether it's state firing squad or the federal electric chair. That said, facing formal charges as predicted that essentially mirror the charges under which he was arrested that specifically being the murder of Charlie Kirk, a 31-year-old husband and father of two. For what motive? Political hatred, ideology differences. Really? At this hour, as we go to air, the defendants's friends and furries under a microscope. Did they know what was happening? What are they? Clairvoyant. They predicted it online. How did they do that without knowledge? Did they actually help him affect the murder? That and so much more. We are learning specifically who got rid of the note. Listen, >> the suspect wrote a note saying, "I have the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it." That note was written before the shooting. that the note, even though it has been destroyed, we have found forensic evidence of the note and we have confirmed what that note says because of our aggressive interview posture at the FBI. >> Robinson communicated he had an opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and he was going to do it. Robinson reportedly texted the message and left a note in his St. George apartment. The note was destroyed, but investigators discovered its contents through an interview. The FBI is now investigating if anyone refused to intervene or even helped him commit the murder. >> That sound of FBI director Cash Patel from our friends at Fox. A lot of people are piling on Patel right now. Uh could we focus on the killer? I will get to Patel in a moment, but right now it's all about the evidence as formal charges being handed down against Robinson. What note? How did it get destroyed? What did it say? And why would someone destroy it if Robinson himself did not destroy it? Who did? Sounds like a codefendant to me. Straight out to senior political reporter, Daily Mail, Alina Shirazi. Alina, thank you for being with us. What note? Yeah. So, you just heard FBI director Cash Patel on Fox News on Monday say uh that Robinson wrote that note reportedly saying uh quote, "I have the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going uh to do it." Cash Patel also said that the suspect wrote this note uh before the shooting. There was evidence that it existed. It was in their home uh that he lived with with his uh romantic partner. But even though uh Patel says it was destroyed, which there are questions as you brought up, Nancy, how was it destroyed? Who destroyed it? Because that is um obviously crucial evidence. Um they've still found forensic evidence of the note and uh they've confirmed what the note said because of aggressive interviews at the FBI. >> Elena Shirazi, you are absolutely correct. But I don't like the way that that just tripped off your tongue. I want to get every single word you said, all the points you were making because to me, every one of the points that you so quickly recounted is a point of evidence. Um, you know, to you, Joseph Scott Morgan joining me. I want to follow up on everything that Alina Shirazi just said. Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, head of an incredible program there, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a new hit series podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. That said, he is a death investigator and forensics expert that has handled literally thousands of cases. Joe Scott, why didn't the guy just take out an ad on Third Avenue? I did it. I mean, to leave a written note, now that's something I would argue in closing arguments. But can we talk about the fact that the FBI director said it was destroyed, but that their investigation led to its contents? I smell a codefendant. Who destroyed that note? And how did they recreate that note? >> Yeah, good question. I'm wondering if they if this is a physical note, like a handwritten note, I'm wondering if they have found partials of this note that they could have reassembled in some way. And we don't know what destroyed means. Does that mean that it's torn up? Does that mean that it was burned? Uh, all of these factors are going to play into it. Uh, also, is there a chance that there could have been some kind of digital remnant? I have no idea. Hey Joe Scott, let's look at each three of those alternatives because we know that they have been able to recreate it. So if it was torn up, simple. Some I'm just going out on a limb here and hypothesizing it was either him or his roommate that tore up the note. >> Yes. >> Uh that said, it could have been somebody else that happened to be in their apartment that tore up the note. If it all it was was torn up, we could put that right back together again. No problem. Um, if it were burned, different thing that can be recreated, too. Um, and it's really not that hard. You've been on plenty of arson scenes, as have I. When something is burned very often, unless the ashes have been scattered, you can still read what's on the ashes. That is a fact. >> Yeah. And we have to understand that the the evidence response team from the FBI that by the way is very good was on top of everything here working handinhand with the state police. They would have been very careful at all of these scenes. Remember Nancy I think that people get lost in the sauce here thinking that there's only one crime scene. Nancy, you've got multiple scenes here with not just the shooting site but also the homes that are involved, the vehicles that are involved. There's all kinds of secondary and tertiary scenes involved in this. So, this would have been an all hands on deck. They would have treated this note, let's just say it was in an incinerated uh status. Uh they would have treated it as if it's a fragile document from the distant past. Uh one other thing I was thinking about if this was written on a note pad perhaps and they used a tremendous amount of pressure when writing, which a lot of people do. If you find that pad, you can reconstruct it based upon the impressions left on the underlying paper still remaining. Yeah. >> Smart, smart, Joe Scott. And of course, here here's the other alternative, Joe Scott. Uh not to beat a dead horse, but digitally, >> I don't I don't They said it was a note. They did not say it was a text or an email, but >> right, >> if there's some digital proof of that note, such as, "Hey, get rid of the note I left on my desk." There you go. There you go. Proof of the note. You know, let me go out to uh veteran trial lawyer France Borgghheart, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, adjunct Louisiana State University at borgghart lawfirm.com. Fron, thank you for being with us. What if I call you on the phone and go, "Hey, hey, hey, I left a note. Um, I think it's on my desk under my laptop. Could you destroy it right now? Okay. And you destroy it. What can I charge you with after the murder takes place? >> So, I've now entered in the realm of obstruction of justice, possibly aiding in abetting. Uh, in federal court, Nancy, it's a different crime. Um, but it's all in that family of accomplice. Um, while you may not be able to be charged with murder, you're certainly looking at serious charges on what might be one of the most serious public murders uh in quite some time. So, you are in a heap of trouble >> in your jurisdiction for obstruction of justice. What's the sentence? >> It it it could be 5 to 20 uh for obstruction. There's different flavors of obstruction. There's like a lesser one, but 5 to 20. And you better believe, Nancy, they're going to be going for the 20. >> You know what I predict, France Borgart? I predict the furries and friends are going to talk. They're going to talk rather than do 20 20 hard on obstruction. >> Mhm. >> And a lot has been made about the roommate maybe being transgender and transitioning and his friends are furries. Don't care. I don't care who they are, what they believe, what their sex preference is. I don't care what color they are, what religion or no religion they are. All I care about is did they have a hand in Charlie Kirk's brutal and public murder. That's all I care about. Guys, there's more more evidence pouring out. Uh, let's take a listen to the friends, especially the friends on that Discord chat room being under the microscope right now. Listen, >> did they say it, hear it, and think it was some kind of a joke? That's what we're trying to find out now. But I promise you, if there's a larger network here, we're going to get that out to the public as soon as we can. Did they know? Were they sure of this or did they hear this and just write it off? That's what we're going to have to find out and that's what we're investigating now. >> From our friends at Fox, straight out to Sydney Sumar joining us in addition to Elina Shirazi with Daily Mail. Sydney Sumar, crime stories investigative reporter. What were the friends clairvoyant? Because didn't they post several of them? Something big is going to happen on September 11. Some of them even naming the place. It'd be funny if someone like Charlie Kirk got shot on September 10, laughing my ass off. Really? You know what? When you're hauled in for questioning, mushy. I don't think you're going to be laughing your ass off then. And there's more. What about it, Sydney Sumar? >> Oh, here's another one. September 10 will be a very interesting day. I plead the 5th. Really? Why do you plead the 5th if you haven't done anything wrong? And there's so much more. Now, see, that's on August the 6th. August the 6th. They're predicting something on the 10th. And then we effing did it. Ah, you guys have something big coming soon. Just be sure you check the news. You'll know it when you see it. Who are these people, Sydney Sumar? >> Right. Apparently, these are all people that are being investigated as part of Robinson's network that may have known about this. I mean, it I don't see a way to defend against, oh, I didn't know anything was happening. It seems like you did from Look at this. Look at this. Charlie Kirk is coming to my college tomorrow. I really hope someone evaporates him literally. Let's just say, same person speaking, Omar, let's just say something big will happen tomorrow. Wow. And look, look at all the people that have reposted it, that have hearted it. I I don't know. I don't think they're clairvoyant. Fron Borggheart, it's just like um Scott Peterson. Oh, here's another one. College dropout does not know what's coming tomorrow. They're referring to Charlie Kirk because he didn't get into the militarymies. Be ready. This isn't a threat. It's a promise. That's Jackson. Jackson, I'm going to haul you in by your toenails and find out why you said that. I mean, we effing did it. Charlie Kirk has died. Fronborg, just like Scott Peterson, they're not clairvoyant. Recall Peterson said to his lover, "This is going to be my first Christmas without my wife. I'm going to have my first Christmas as a widow." And then bam, he did because he murdered her and their unborn baby, Connor. Same thing here. These people are not clairvoyants. >> I don't know the answer to that. I don't know that they're quote unquote co-conspirators cuz they knew and didn't say anything. Absolutely foul. Absolutely disgusting. And I, you know, if everybody's going to start singing at some point, especially Utah's a firing squad state, they're not afraid to put someone down. And everybody's going to start singing. And all this forensic evidence, all of it, all of it is going to be used against not only the shooter, but also these individuals. Well, what about aiding and abetting? Wouldn't that qualify as aiding and abetting? Cheering someone on in their crime. Not put Fron Borgghart up. Look, I know that you're coming at this from a different lens through a different lens than I am. But just knowing about something is not necessarily a crime. But if you aid and abet, if you further that conspiracy at all, if you encourage, encourage is listed in the aiding and embedded statute. The black and white letter of the law says if you aid, a bet encourage and they're commas. You don't need everyone. Aid, a bet, comma, encourage, if you encourage a murder, you're in it up to here. Borgheart. >> Well, the federal government and the state are going to have leverage over these people to be sure. Even if it's not a strong aiding and abetting case, Nancy, they're going to be able to say, you know what, we're going to throw it against the wall and see if we can and get it to stick. And that's why I think more likely than not, these lower level people, these, and I say lower level because they weren't holding the gun, but they may be just as responsible. I think that they're going to cooperate and try to cut deals that take death penalty off the table. >> Two, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of LA, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, who are the ghouls that stand by and let a young father of two get shot in the in the throat, tearing his throat out and then they cheer after. Forget what they did after the aiding and abetting the encouraging this. That is a crime, a felony. >> Nancy, these ghouls are people who are also homicidal. You don't cheer somebody on unless you also have homicidal ideiation. Now, what's interesting about this shooting is it has some aspects of a school shooting, not all. It's an assassination as well in that he was standing at the top of a building. It was a a fish in a barrel quality, scaring students, creating a power differential, and school shooters tend to confess online and everybody overlooks it now because they're afraid to turn the guy in or they minimize or discount it. What's interesting and different about this is this per was actually recruiting followers and the followers willingly went along. And I think one of the ways that he recruited followers was through gaming and having people watch him playing violent games. And so he was he was kind of creating an army of support. And I'm going to say these people wished Kirk dead as much as the perp did. They just didn't have to pick up the gun and do it themselves. But they certainly egged him on and pushed him towards it. And in my mind, that is complicity at a psychological level. >> Did they say it, hear it, and think it was some kind of a joke? That's what we're trying to find out now. But I promise you, if there's a larger network here, we're going to get that out to the public as soon as we can. Did they know? Were they sure of this or did they hear this and just write it off? That's what we're going to have to find out, and that's what we're investigating now. Prices are out of control. Have you been to the grocery store? Many people are relying on credit cards just to get by for essentials. If you see your debt growing every day, you're not alone. Americans owe over $1 trillion. You may have hesitated to call American Financing to avoid losing your low mortgage rate. Well, there is good news. Their smart equity loan lets you tap into your home's equity without touching your current mortgage. It offers a fixed rate and one predictable monthly payment. No upfront or hidden fees and it only takes 10 minutes to get started. If you need help, call 866880344. Repeat 866880344 or go online to americanfancing.net/nancy to learn more. He changed clothes to as dev to void so as to avoid detection. He covered his tracks. He parked far away. He hid his weapon. He had to go back and retrieve his weapon. He tried to cover his face. Everything indicates he knew what he was doing was wrong and he tried to hide it afterwards. So this guy, the Kirk suspect, he ain't all that in a bag of chips. Let me throw a technical legal term at you. Idiot. And tonight we're are learning a potential motive, hatred. Old as dirt. In one text sent by the alleged shooter, he was asked why he said some hatred cannot be negotiated with. The alleged shooter says some hatred cannot be negotiated with. And you know what that says to me? Maybe you won't get a plea negotiation. Think about it. I wonder if his own words will be thrown back in his face. Will this be a death penalty case in the end? Or will it fizz out like Cobberger before the public knows what really happened and the degree of planning involved in Kirk's murder? Right now we are learning formal charges and they mirror the charges on which he was arrested. This is how it goes. Police have PC probable cause to arrest you. The arrest is for let's just say murder and weapons charges. Generally speaking, the formal charges and indictment will mirror what the cops used to arrest you for. Simple. Now, sometimes additional evidence will come to light and there may be different or additional charges. That said, that's exactly what is happening in this case. There are additional charges, but the one that really matters is murder. Now, we are learning that the shooter was apparently radicalized online. Sydney Sumar, before we discuss that, could you just remind everybody how many thousands of hours the alleged shooter was online? >> Well, we know from his Twitch channel, so this is the amount of streaming games that he's played that he's publicly put out there for everyone to watch. more than 2,000 hours. That's over 10 years. But when you do the math there, that's an hour a day at least. >> Now, when you say that that was the amount we know of that was streamed, a lot of people are not familiar with what that means, nor should they be familiar with it. They're out working and having lives. My understanding is he would play online and there were 2,000 hours of him playing online that he posted or that people could watch as he streamed it. That doesn't include all the online activity that he didn't share streaming. Is that right? >> Absolutely right. So Twitch is like Facebook for video games. So it's like streaming yourself live on Facebook and people can tune in and watch as you're playing this video game. So there's no telling how many hours he played not publicly, just on his own devices without streaming it to everyone. This is only a fraction of what he shared publicly. >> So the reason I'm telling you about this is because many suspect he was radicalized online, steeped in political hatred online. Listen, >> I will say that that person has been very cooperative uh with with authorities. >> An anonymous family member of the person Robinson lives with believes Lance Twigs radicalized Robinson. The woman says Twigs is very low contact with their family and hates them for their political and religious beliefs. She blames immersion in online gaming culture for some of the personality changes seen in the roommates since moving in together. But her gut tells her Twig provided the fuel behind Robinson's sudden extremism. there was kind of that that deep dark internet uh the the the the Reddit culture and these these other dark places of the internet where um where where this person was uh was going deep >> that from our friends that's the Utah governor Spencer Cox from NBC speaking earlier I want to analyze what I'm hearing uh Chris Mcdana joining me um director Cole Casease Foundation star of the interview room on YouTube but former homicide detective working over 300 homicides plus more. Chris Mcdana, motive doesn't matter. Now, I know that sounds, you know, off base, but the reality is motive does not have to be proved by the state. Period. However, juries like to hear it. What do you think about this? Radicalized online. >> You know, Nancy, there's a couple of things happening right now uh that are fluid in this investigation. they are scraping the internet uh for every click, every keyboard click uh from Mr. Robinson's um you know devices. And those keyboard clicks will tell us any kind of messaging that may or may not have been going back and forth to these streaming platforms where these gamers hang out. The roommate hung out on a variety of different type of streaming platforms. One of them was Twitch. The other one was uh what they call steam s e a m. I've been on the ground the last three days here in Utah. This is where the investigation is focusing. There's one other point that they're trying to establish and that's the car in of itself. They've pulled the telematics out of the car. They want to know if that car was moving when that shot went off. If that car was moving, now we're into another direction that this investigation could take. Hold on. That is a bombshell. Repeat about the car potentially moving while Robinson allegedly scaled down the side of that wall while he was shooting while he was laying in weight in a sniper's nest. What? >> Yeah. And while we remember when we talked uh the other day, Nancy, that the car was at his residence right there. Okay. Well, of course, it had to get there. So, they're tracking his phone ping and his phone pings just kind of my understanding, uh, they're not positive if it went to a car or if the car was parked, etc. So, they now have that car and they have pulled the data on that car and that's going to potentially take them either a it was parked or b uh there's something else going on here and somebody is driving that car. >> Please join us on our mission to find missing people, especially children, to solve unsolved homicides. If you're on the go, catch us on your favorite podcast app where you can get all of our content where we in our own way seek justice. To Elena Shirazi joining us, senior political reporter, Daily Mail. Alina, we were looking at video and steals of the same video of the defendant walking through a neighborhood. He had thought ahead, Elena, as you well know, and changed his outfit. Take a look at this. This is him walking through a neighborhood. That's my friends at TMZ in an entirely different outfit. Now, when he was kneeling down and lying on his stomach, he was wearing what you see on the right. Now, wait a minute. 8:07, he's on foot. 11:49. He's changed clothes. He's back on foot. Where was his car? Did someone drop him at a drop point and pick him back up? Did he hide his car somewhere and go back to it? Elena, what do we know? >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean looking at all of this, including those Discord messages that the FBI is looking through, um that sort of predicted that this would happen. Um the fact that he was so entrenched uh in these groups, um also referencing, of course, his romantic partner, which authorities say he became really radicalized, um sort of impassioned by his views afterwards. So, I mean, looking at this, I mean, it started with a note and will end with a funeral. Um they recovered the Mouser 98 rifle. There was a towel with DNA prints. Um there is enough evidence there. The big question now is was he working alone? Um and they do have evidence that they're looking through now that um could potentially point to that. Um but we certainly uh we certainly will see. He just ditched his gun in uh the forest in the woods before he went. Um, so it was premeditated as you said. He changed his clothes. It was planned. Um, but he's clearly not an expert um because he left his DNA. Elina, we're showing right now uh you're correct where he ditched the gun. And we had on the little facts that we knew at the time hypothesized that the tree area, the tree line where he ditched the gun was not up in the mountains where many people thought he had absconded up into the mountains pulling an Eric Rudolph, the Olympic bomber who lived in the mountains for years before he was caught, but somewhere close to a road. So, that leads me to wonder, did someone pick him up in his vehicle after he ditched the gun? Little did he know, a towel is the perfect conduit for DNA. Um, Chris Mcdana, you stated that the car and its nav system is being reviewed now to determine if it was moving at the time Charlie Kirk was murdered. How does that work? How do they do that? >> So, what they do is they pull the navigation system out as well as some of the what they call a telematic system and they're able to send that to either Quantico uh or Salt Lake City where they're they have also an FBI office and in that data you're able to see exactly what that car is doing if it's moving uh you know if it makes a if the blinker comes on etc. There's a tremendous amount of forensic data that can, you know, be had there. And and let's not forget that the that Tyler Robinson at this point also post homicide told his roommate to go, you know, potentially go get that gun. Okay. Now, why would he do that? What's going on there? And so th this is the angle I think the law enforcement is running on uh in terms of trying to get the bigger circle uh because I think that the car in of itself is going to be very critical in relationship to if like we we're talking about here Nancy if it's moving if it's >> What about it Joe Scott? >> Hey look uh his car I like that in the possessive who's driving the car Nancy they they've already found DNA on a towel. This is going to be very compelling to me. They will search this car thoroughly. Chris had mentioned uh the electronics in the car, but I'm interested in contact trace DNA on that steering wheel. I want to know is there anybody else's DNA in that car that is that is not an owner of the vehicle? Who's operating the vehicle? If they've gone down this road relative to this towel, remember they found the screwdriver as well that they say had remnant of DNA. Well, if someone is using the gear lever, if someone is you is opening the door inside of this vehicle, somebody is obviously steering it. I I want to know did they recover any touch DNA inside of this vehicle? And also, are there any latent prints inside this vehicle? Now, we know if he's in a relationship with this person, it's not beyond understanding that that individual would occupy that space. However, it opens the door for other questions forensically, like operating the vehicle. Have you ever operated this vehicle before? And you begin to press this individual relative to more information. >> Well, think about it, Jessica Morgan. Here's a great example. I know you recall the reporter Terresa Hallback who was sex assaulted, murdered, and her body burned in a fire pit in the backyard of Stephen Avery. All that was found were some of her teeth and the studs on the back of her Daisy Fuentes jeans. Her vehicle was parked at the end of his auto salvage lot covered up. And on the ignition was his sweat. >> Yes. >> Where he Can you imagine hunched over the wheel trying to crank up her car and go hide it just sweating onto the ignition and the LA there law enforcement got his sweat off the ignition. I mean, yes, you're right. But here's the one thing. I understand everything you're saying and you're absolutely correct. The thing I don't understand, Dr. Bethany Marshall, is somebody who calls you after you gunned down Charlie Kirk tearing his throat out and say, "Hey, hey, can you give me a ride?" And the person says, "Oh yeah, here I come. I was just circling." Who in the H EL goes along with that? See, Nancy, this is where I think the behavioral evidence is so important. Let's say these two are acting in con in concert. What we know about men who are homicidal who act in concert is usually there's a stronger male who recruits a more vulnerable male. And what we're going to see if if you look at all of the the Twitch accounts, how he they were interacting with people online. What I'm interested in is is it just the per on Twitch playing violent games in front of a a following or is it the two of them recruiting a following? To me, that is so vital and that's going to be very easy to see, Nancy, whose face is there, whose electronic um footprint is there. And I also think of this almost like a small cult where you have two people who are just getting a ground swell of support. As of tonight, the suspect Robinson has stopped cooperating, but many a true word is spoken in justest. Take a listen. the the suspect has not been cooperating uh so far and and so we're getting all of this information from from family members. Again, people around the suspect. >> Almost immediately after the release, Robinson's friends called him out in their Discord group chat. One asking Robinson where he is. Robinson shoots back, "It's my doppelganger trying to get me in trouble." Another proclaims, "Tyler killed Charlie." A third suggests turning Robinson in for the reward. And Robinson sneers, "Only if I get a cut." >> You saw the governor speaking to our friends at NBC. Dr. Bethany Marshall, help me out here. You just take a 200yard shot and tear the throat out of a husband father. Okay. And then you're joking about getting a cut of the reward when you're the killer. Actually, Nancy, this does fit the profile of this kind of a killer because what it tells me is that he had some kind of paranoid ideiation, meaning that he felt that Charlie Kirk's presence on this earth was affecting him negatively in some way. So, once he takes him out, there's a relief phase. There's always a relief phase after homicide where somebody's calm. We saw Casey Anthony going shopping, kind of dancing on the other person's grave. So I I think that's really probitative here that the fact that they're joking with each other because the group is getting their their jollies off. They're very happy that this has happened. >> It's almost as if he's giddy. Listen to this. >> The chat continues joking how Luigi Manion was caught. Whatever you do, don't go to a McDonald's anytime soon. Robinson replying he better get rid of this manifesto an exact copy rifle I have lying around before insisting the shooter is clearly from California. Elena Shirazi joining us senior political reporter Daily Mail explain they are comparing the shooting of Charlie Kirk to the shooting of Brian Thompson the health CEO. Correct. >> Yeah. They're trying to draw uh comparisons there and um just kind of make some comments in just um for Louis J and Gion who was arrested at McDonald's. Um so, you know, they responded with a punchline to that. So, the question is if they truly believe that um Robinson didn't do it, you know, that could be a part of the reason why they were joking. If they did know it was him, that's an entire story in and of its own. But you can imagine what was going on. >> Hold on just a second. >> You're right, Elena. But I want to point out to Dr. Bethany Marshall. They're comparing him to Luigi Manion, who we have on video shooting Brian Thompson dead, sneaking up on him like a coward and shooting him dead, much the way Charlie Kirk was shot dead at a distance. So, the shooter couldn't be hurt or attacked. It's easy to shoot somebody, gun them down with a scope in a long range rifle, right? And here he is talking about, "Yeah, I better not uh I better get rid of my manifesto like Manion's manifesto and I got to get rid of the copy rifle." He's not saying, "What are you talking about? I didn't do this. I would never kill anybody." You know, Nancy, if you dress it up as a homicide for some kind of ideological reason, you just rationalize to yourself that it's okay. But at the end of the day, homicide is homicide. Okay? And I think of homicide in a case like this, he he talks about hatred, I think underneath the hatred is basic envy. Charles Kirk had a great life, a great wife, two beautiful children. He had the public stage. He was beloved. He was kind of a provocator, but people flocked to debate with him and to hear what he had to say. And I think that these per and I'm going to put an s on the end of this because I think they all colluded even though the group didn't want to get their hands dirty to get one soldier out. It's a group. Um I think there's basic envy towards somebody who was leading a great life. They couldn't stand it. Does that fit in with many of these uh cohorts of his leading a secret life as a furry? >> Well, you know, Nancy, I'm kind of sad that furries have gotten drawn into this because by and large, the furries are sort of a diverse community of people who are funloving. They like to have personal expression. They talk about wearing fur suits, which they'll spend months making. >> Cut her up. Bethany, Charlie Kirk had his throat torn out, I appreciate your defense of the furries, but can we please focus on the murder? Okay. Well, Nancy, there is a small portion of the furry community. They talk about expressing their personalities, wearing their fursuits, but a small portion of them have fetishes in that dressing up as an animal is very sexualized. Now, interestingly, the shooter made a reference to his bulge, telling me that he equated shooting Charlie Kirk with having an erection, meaning that there was a sexual thrill in shooting him in the throat. So, we have envy, we have school shooting psychology, we also have sexual excitement, which tells me that you have a group of followers online who in some ways have also fetishized killing. I don't think this makes the furry community look very good. I don't think this has to do with furries. I think this has to do with the group. >> I think nobody's running for Miss Congeniality right now, Dr. Bethany. And what I tried to ask you was, as part of a rich fantasy life, pretending you're an animal, okay, if you're already living in another realm, is this just a part of your pretend world? I mean, Kirk is dead. And whether they were going along gleefully, it wasn't real. they were going along with it in real life whether they meant to or not. >> The law that presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. And when you help encourage, ate and abet someone to commit a murder, whether you're pretending or it's your fantasy doesn't matter. The law assumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. And I want to point out that so many people are gleeful over murder. Listen to this. Realworld consequences for hateful responses to Kirk's murder. A surgeon resigned after loudly proclaiming Kirk got what he deserved. DC canled a comic book series after just one issue because the artist posted, "I hope the bullet's okay." As quickly as they ran to social media to celebrate Kirk's death, many returned with news of their firings, many extremely angry or in tears over the shocking development. >> Your homie dead. He got shot in the head. Your homie dead. >> Good gravy. What was that, Sydney? What was that? Well, that was 18-year-old Cameron Jazelle who approached a student on campus who was standing there holding a sign that said, "Rest in peace, Charlie Kirk." and was decorated with photos of him. This was one student by himself, standing there memorializing Kirk, not really speaking with anyone unless somebody approached him specifically. And Jazelle felt the need to attack this person for standing out there with a memorial sign. So you saw her insane song that she was singing. She was getting in his face as other students got involved. >> Okay. Wait a minute. You know what? You're glossing over the fact Sydney. She said, "F your homie dead. He got shot in the head." F your homie dead. That's what she was saying. And that is from AO's private story on Tik Tok. Now, uh, okay, I want you to see the nurse that called, this took some guts, called a surgeon on celebrating Kirk's murder. >> No, I'm not fired as of right now. Right now, I am suspended indefinitely unpaid. >> Why? >> So, I walked into the nurses station and I just had learned about Charlie Kirk. I saw this guy. I didn't know who he was at the time. And he was standing there celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk, saying how he deserved it. He hated Charlie Kirk and he had it coming to him. That from our friends at Fox. That took a lot of guts to call out a surgeon. But there's more. So, we came in for an order earlier for to print a poster for a vigil tonight. Yes. >> For somebody that passed. >> It's not Oh, >> it's propaganda. I'm sorry. We don't put that here. >> It's propaganda. I'm sorry we don't print that here. What was that about, Sydney? >> So, they were trying to hold a candle light vigil for Charlie Kirk and they wanted posters printed at Office Depot for that vigil. And these employees refused to print them, calling them propaganda. So they were very pleasant in their conversation, but Office Max corporate had a huge problem with their behavior. FedEx ended up printing the posters for free after seeing this video, and those employees have been fired. >> That video is from MMD Aerno on X. But here's here's the rub to France Borgghheart's a veteran trial lawyer joining us out of Baton Rouge. Fron here's the deal. We may disagree with their behavior and what they're doing and what they're saying. We may think it's bloodthirsty and disgusting. Much like we feel when somebody burns the flag or or has a poster that says f America or burns a beloved figure or political figure in effigy. We don't like it, but it's the First Amendment. So now, refusing to do your job at Office Max or wherever that was is a whole another can of worms. But these people dancing on Charlie Kirk's grave are disgusting. Whether you agree with Kirk or not doesn't matter. The guy was murdered. His children don't have a father. I don't think they can be prosecuted, not at all, for saying whatever they want to say. So, here's where the rubber meets the road, Nancy. If they're in a state where there's inciting violence laws, and generally those can be felonies, those are not going to withstand a First Amendment defense. You can't shout fire in a in a crowded theater. You cannot try to incite violence at a memorial. Um, people who do stupid stuff at their jobs, they're going to get fired. But depending on where these people are acting and what they are saying, they may not be able to escape some kind of arrest or criminal prosecution. And look, justifiably, if you're trying to incite violence at a memorial, I think you should be arrested. >> Hey, you're preaching to the choir. The investigation into the assassination of Charlie Kirk, husband and father, goes on. If you know or think you know anything about the plot to murder Kirk, please call tollfree 800. Call FBI 800225-5324 or 801-579-1400. You can go to tips.fbi.gov. And now we remember an American hero. Deputy Sheriff Andres Laera, Citrus County Sheriff's Office, killed in the line of duty after 14 years of service, leaves behind a grieving wife, Michelle, and two sons without a father, Vincent and Nicholas. American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andress Laa. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. [Music] Please join us on our mission to find missing people, especially children, to solve unsolved homicides. If you're on the go, catch us on your favorite podcast app where you can get all of our content where we in our own way seek justice.
