Joe Biden Recordings Reveal Internal White House Tensions Over Economic Policy and Presidential Campaign Strategy

[00:01] In the meantime,

[00:03] what was happening, I got a call

[00:06] from Dilma Rouso

[00:09] that she wanted me to come to her

[00:11] inauguration

[00:13] and uh this is before she imploded. I

[00:17] know we're not going to write a lot

[00:18] about her, but it's a context.

[00:19] >> Yeah. You were in St. Croy, right, when

[00:21] you went for

[00:22] >> Yeah. And so, but I got the invitation

[00:25] earlier.

[00:26] >> Okay.

[00:27] Um and uh so I had been working like

[00:32] hell to overcome the Snowden stuff,

[00:36] >> right?

[00:36] >> And uh we

[00:40] started to actually

[00:42] make some real comments.

[00:44] If you'll make a note, my book, if you

[00:47] make a note, I will too.

[00:50] Where when did she use the phrase

[00:54] um we're not married yet when we're

[00:55] dating?

[00:56] >> Oh yeah, seductive. Uh

[00:59] >> it relates to um timing.

[01:03] >> Okay.

[01:06] >> I actually have that uh

[01:10] clip in my laptop.

[01:12] >> Okay. Well, um I'm trying to remember

[01:15] when it was, you know,

[01:16] >> so

[01:18] because

[01:21] it um

[01:24] it'll sort of give me a

[01:26] point counterpoint

[01:29] piece of

[01:34] what was going on.

[01:38] Um

[01:40] and uh

[01:45] so uh

[01:54] we were uh

[02:00] [sighs]

[02:01] so I'd been working that hard.

[02:04] >> I can't believe you made that trip. I

[02:06] didn't realize till I looked at the

[02:07] schedule. You made that trip in a day.

[02:14] All right.

[02:16] Um

[02:18] and uh

[02:23] uh

[02:27] um

[02:32] so she made the comment

[02:35] uh

[02:37] uh at a dinner just before the World Cup

[02:40] last year. So that would have been in

[02:44] World Cup probably summer of 2014. So

[02:47] she'd already said that.

[02:49] >> Yeah.

[02:49] >> Yeah.

[02:50] >> Um

[02:52] so uh [snorts]

[02:54] I've been working it real hard. Um

[02:59] and uh the other thing

[03:02] um

[03:09] uh

[03:15] I was through the month of of November

[03:21] working real hard

[03:24] on um

[03:28] uh

[03:31] the uh

[03:34] had we passed ACA? We had had we uh um

[03:43] Uh

[03:47] that looks like 13 2013.

[03:50] >> Yeah, this is 13. Um

[03:57] 1104.

[04:00] Okay.

[04:02] Um

[04:03] >> so that's still a year too early for 15.

[04:08] I think in here

[04:10] >> actually

[04:11] >> there's 115.

[04:12] >> Yeah. Um

[04:17] uh

[04:46] Okay, this is November 14. Just get my

[04:50] Okay.

[04:52] Um, I was working a lot with Ukraine

[04:59] and with

[05:03] Mhm. Energy energy guy right

[05:05] >> energy um and um

[05:10] uh

[05:13] and it was about uh whether or not they

[05:16] were going to cut off oil

[05:19] and about what u how Ukraine had to um

[05:24] change their oil subsidy to a market

[05:28] system.

[05:29] Um, here's what I meant in my car. I

[05:31] still do it.

[05:32] >> Oh.

[05:34] >> Um, and um, so, uh,

[05:39] um, in order to get IMF loans,

[05:43] they had to move more to a market

[05:45] economy because they were way way off

[05:48] um, and had to deal with corruption in

[05:50] the energy sector.

[05:52] So um uh and they owe Russia um uh about

[05:59] 3

[06:01] um6 billion dollar [snorts]

[06:04] um and uh in back energy cost

[06:08] >> natural it was natural gas selling into

[06:11] >> there was some oil too. Okay, some coal

[06:14] but it was mainly gas. Okay. And uh what

[06:19] I was working really hard on was getting

[06:22] other countries to engage in reverse

[06:25] flow of their pipeline so they could

[06:28] flow to Ukraine.

[06:30] >> Um and uh um uh and the IMF was the

[06:38] subsidy they were subsidizing the cost

[06:40] of energy 81%.

[06:44] This is over and above the loans.

[06:47] >> Back up. The Ukrainian government

[06:51] >> Mhm.

[06:52] >> was having Ukrainian people

[06:56] pay so little for the gas they were

[06:58] getting. They were subsidized to the

[07:00] tune of 81% the people.

[07:02] >> Okay.

[07:03] >> Not the government, the people.

[07:06] And um so for example, you'd ride

[07:09] through rural parts of Ukraine.

[07:11] >> Mhm. and it'd be 12, 15, 20° and the

[07:16] windows are wide open in their homes for

[07:19] real. Um, so, uh, IMF said they had to

[07:25] they had to phase in a government

[07:27] tariff.

[07:29] Um, but the gas deal they had, they had

[07:32] no real European assistance, asurances

[07:35] that they would they they'd be part of

[07:37] the deal.

[07:39] Um and uh um

[07:43] uh and then um on the 26 and 14 um

[07:50] uh

[07:52] uh we're talking about um uh

[07:57] back in talking about uh ISIL

[08:02] um uh increasing uh pressure on Assad.

[08:07] [clears throat] Um

[08:10] and we had I had a discussion of the

[08:11] Turks. John Allen, General Allen was

[08:13] going to go see

[08:15] details not that important. Okay.

[08:19] >> Okay.

[08:20] >> Um and uh I had uh Davatollo who was

[08:25] then the prime minister.

[08:28] Um

[08:30] uh

[08:31] and uh I um um and President Erdogan I

[08:36] tried to uh

[08:38] expand on the eight points. What were

[08:40] the eight points? I can't remember.

[08:44] And

[08:46] >> having been burned by Libya, right?

[08:48] Yeah.

[08:52] >> Okay.

[08:53] Uh um uh

[08:58] uh

[09:00] with Yeah. with the

[09:03] >> Okay. Um uh

[09:08] >> as so as they started grabbing land,

[09:11] they were grabbing.

[09:11] >> Yeah, that was a big argument.

[09:16] >> Did they send the speeches to

[09:20] >> All right.

[09:21] Um, what was I going to ask you

[09:23] something else? Uh, um,

[09:28] oh gosh,

[09:33] I I can't think what it is. Thanks.

[09:40] Something number something quality.

[09:43] >> Yeah,

[09:43] >> I can't.

[09:46] >> Some of this may be classified for what?

[09:49] >> Okay.

[09:50] >> I'm not sure. Right. It's not more

[09:51] classified, but

[09:55] >> interesting. That date is 11:2614.

[09:58] >> Yeah.

[09:59] >> And uh that's a day you were in

[10:01] Nantucket.

[10:03] So do you um do you get like fed into a

[10:07] situation room meeting?

[10:09] >> Yeah. They set up a secure

[10:11] >> Okay. So actually in in the Thanksgiving

[10:14] trip you were at

[10:16] >> the way on the 26th I had a long call

[10:18] with U Arseni Yatsenyuk. [snorts]

[10:23] Um he told me they'd formed a

[10:25] government. They agreed on a new speaker

[10:27] and an agenda.

[10:29] He said I'm quote keeping my commitment

[10:32] to you

[10:34] that you asked me to do on our ride to

[10:36] the airport. Remember I talked about the

[10:38] ride to the airport?

[10:39] >> Yeah. Um, I thanked him for following

[10:42] through

[10:43] >> and that was about

[10:44] >> that was corruption and

[10:46] >> that was about no that was specifically

[10:49] about sticking with um uh um Por Shenko.

[10:53] >> Okay.

[10:54] >> And not calling for elections and not

[10:57] campaigning separately campaigning

[10:59] together.

[11:00] >> Right. So they had so they had formed

[11:02] this essentially coalition government.

[11:04] Yeah. Okay. And um uh

[11:09] and then on the u

[11:10] >> and that's the day and that was also

[11:12] reported the day after that that's when

[11:13] they announced they were

[11:16] doing away with um that the old neutral

[11:19] policy and heading toward EU.

[11:22] >> Yeah, that could be. That wasn't what I

[11:24] asked him, but that's what

[11:25] >> but that's all. Um and then on the 2nd

[11:30] of December

[11:33] um um

[11:36] we had it discussion about Turkey and

[11:38] the Russian pipeline with Hawkstein at

[11:41] 11:45. What was going on was the

[11:44] Russians were now there they they were

[11:49] kind of bribed the Turks with what they

[11:51] call Southream. Okay.

[11:53] >> That all the all the oil coming out of

[11:55] Russia would come down through

[11:58] uh the Caspian and into Turkey and use

[12:02] that as a hub.

[12:04] >> Um and uh um it would come from the

[12:07] eastern

[12:09] um uh it would it would uh come from

[12:13] from Azerbaijan.

[12:16] Um, Amos called the Turkish minister

[12:20] uh to uh um

[12:23] uh to uh see if this was the deal

[12:27] because it would have real impact on

[12:29] whether or not we could get a deal with

[12:32] Cyprus.

[12:33] >> Mhm.

[12:34] >> Cypress and Israel had found these

[12:38] caches of oil. I mean gas, natural gas.

[12:42] What I was trying to work is an

[12:44] agreement whereby

[12:46] they the oxy and I were trying to work

[12:48] with the Turks to say okay why don't you

[12:51] make a deal with Cyprus

[12:52] >> okay

[12:53] >> get a unity government there in Cyprus

[12:56] and the end result will be you'll have

[12:58] access to all that gas

[13:00] they'll the gas will go to you'll be

[13:03] secure and you will be a conduit into

[13:06] Greece and the rest of the world that's

[13:08] what was being discussed

[13:11] Now

[13:12] >> that's completely separate from the

[13:14] question of Ukraine's national

[13:16] >> completely se but they all are tied.

[13:19] >> Yeah because it's there's one market.

[13:20] there's one market. And so what happens

[13:22] is what they're worried about is if

[13:25] Russia

[13:29] instead of going through Ukraine came

[13:31] down through Turkey, Azerbaijan, it

[13:34] would cost the uh the Ukrainians 10

[13:38] billion dollars a year and lost revenue.

[13:41] Okay.

[13:42] >> Okay.

[13:43] >> Um and a secure access to gas.

[13:47] Um and but the Turks had to get the

[13:51] Russians had to get their gas east.

[13:54] >> So they came up with Southstream to go

[13:56] below Ukraine, cut them out,

[13:59] >> right?

[14:00] >> At the same time, this that's all all

[14:02] energy is fungeible. At the same time

[14:05] what was going on is that um Russia I

[14:09] mean uh um Israel had found this new gas

[14:13] supplies in their territory

[14:16] as had Greece. Now Greece Turkey was

[14:21] arguing that Greece I mean excuse me as

[14:23] as did Cyprus. Turkey was arguing that

[14:27] it wasn't criate gas, but under the UN

[14:30] resolution, it is within C Cypress's

[14:33] um geographic boundaries and border and

[14:36] >> and so and they were threatening to send

[14:39] ships in to block the exploration and

[14:42] the rest. So what had had underway, it

[14:45] looked promising till the Russians came

[14:47] along to try to it up was to say,

[14:49] "Look, work out a deal. Let let the

[14:54] Turks

[14:55] and the Greeks on Cyprus work out a deal

[14:59] which you end up pulling out off the

[15:01] island over time. A unified government

[15:04] by communal byzonal.

[15:08] They can then cut a deal with you

[15:10] because they're part of the EU. they can

[15:12] cut a deal with you to get all the gas

[15:16] you want because it's illogical to go up

[15:19] north to supply Europe through Turkey,

[15:22] >> right?

[15:23] >> Okay. And so in a long and and and the

[15:27] UR and the uh so for the Turks that was

[15:29] like, God, that's great. me, you

[15:33] know, we we're we're going to be a major

[15:36] player again. We'll have energy.

[15:38] >> And then the Russians come along and

[15:40] say, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[15:42] We'll we'll make you the hub.

[15:45] >> All the Russian gas instead of going

[15:46] through Ukraine will come down through

[15:48] you. It was called South Stream.

[15:50] >> Okay.

[15:51] >> Um

[15:52] >> and and the the Russian reserves, the

[15:55] Russian gas is much more than what they

[15:58] were going to be able to pull out of

[15:59] Cypress likely.

[16:00] >> No, not really.

[16:01] >> Oh, really?

[16:02] >> There's a lot of gas.

[16:04] >> Um but there'll be plenty from Cyprus.

[16:07] But what what it was was Russia had no

[16:09] other way to get their gas

[16:11] >> right

[16:12] >> uh to Europe. So um and uh um so call

[16:21] um the Turkish administers to say hey

[16:24] have you guys made a deal? Um

[16:29] they roped a dope and said not yet they

[16:32] haven't. and I put then Jordan if we

[16:36] allowed the deal

[16:38] um to go through in the eastern

[16:40] Mediterranean

[16:42] um that'd be $4.8 billion would go

[16:47] forward with Israel. Um the the meetings

[16:51] went well. This is a case where Jordan

[16:54] is looking to Israel now and saying,

[16:56] "Hey, look, we we we need gas. We need

[16:59] oil. And it's really easy to connect a

[17:02] pipeline right through Israel. The cost

[17:04] of that pipeline be $4.8 billion

[17:06] dollars. And um in 2012, the Sinai

[17:10] pipeline to Israel and Jordan uh was

[17:13] bombed and it's been out 10 months uh um

[17:18] uh um uh there had been uh let me see

[17:32] this about the timing the final deal$ 14

[17:35] billion dollars over the next 10 years

[17:38] of offshore um Israeli gas. So uh uh and

[17:45] uh and this would also uh

[17:49] I I remember this um there there was a

[17:52] big discussion earlier that there would

[17:54] be uh oil in the Dead Sea. Um um

[18:00] uh and uh

[18:02] um and so and Syria was trying to get in

[18:07] the game too. Um

[18:11] uh and uh

[18:14] so uh the question was whether or not

[18:16] this had been an Arab pipeline

[18:19] whether or not the Israeli gas had gone

[18:21] an Arab pipeline which included um

[18:25] here's what we need to do which included

[18:28] uh Egypt. So there was an Arab pipeline

[18:31] that had been had been envisioned. Um

[18:45] um

[18:48] and uh

[18:50] and so uh um

[18:54] what uh

[18:56] uh

[18:58] this whole idea was um Um

[19:06] so the Arab pipeline was this was idea

[19:09] that there was talk of going

[19:12] instead of the the option was that the

[19:17] Greeks would sell the oil would well I

[19:20] mean excuse me the criates would build a

[19:22] pipeline down to Egypt.

[19:25] >> Okay. and Egypt would go under the Red

[19:28] Sea, tie into existing pipelines, and

[19:32] tie Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt

[19:35] together in what they called we're going

[19:37] to call the uh the Arab pipeline.

[19:39] >> Okay.

[19:39] >> Um and uh and uh at the same time this

[19:45] was going on um uh on the second um was

[19:52] I back in the second? Yeah, back at

[19:57] >> I didn't think they were doing nearly

[19:59] enough and uh they should have uh been

[20:02] able to uh um put in all the we we we've

[20:06] been through this. We know how to handle

[20:09] >> domestic violence, but it's like the

[20:11] universities, they all start like we

[20:13] hadn't learned anything. We haven't set

[20:14] anything up,

[20:15] >> right? So it's a whole new institution

[20:17] and they will institution and I argued

[20:19] that uh

[20:20] >> um they should be able to go beyond the

[20:23] command. In other words, the commanding

[20:25] general should be but I lost that. Um

[20:30] um then uh uh then we went back to

[20:34] Brazil and there was whole focus of

[20:37] report by Jack Lou about uh Brazil's

[20:41] economy. um Pritsker had just been down

[20:44] there and again you don't want to get

[20:46] into it but this whole big thing about

[20:48] what was going to happen to Brazil's

[20:49] economy and Brazil's exports um and uh

[20:55] um the basic problems in Brazil weak

[20:58] education reform and through

[21:00] use GTP uh um dialogues and working

[21:05] group we had set up um this was now I

[21:09] have 115 written for this Okay.

[21:12] >> Um, this was my brief to going down to

[21:16] uh with and I brought Lou and company

[21:19] with me um to uh uh set up a working

[21:25] groups with uh after her. But what I did

[21:29] was I um uh I argued that um that uh we

[21:36] should before her inauguration and after

[21:38] we did meet, we should set up working

[21:41] groups on the economy.

[21:44] Um and uh education, a whole range of

[21:48] other things. Um and so uh Pritchard was

[21:52] Pritskar was with me, so was Jack Lou.

[21:55] um uh and we talked about why we should

[21:59] become better trade partners. We talked

[22:02] about uh macroeconomic policy to discuss

[22:06] structural um uh uh structural uh and

[22:11] financial sector measures uh um um trade

[22:16] and investment etc. Um

[22:20] and so uh uh Prrisker set up a US Brazil

[22:24] CEO forum

[22:26] um uh talking about TPP and TTIP

[22:31] um and uh work beyond measur

[22:37] that is the economic um that's like the

[22:40] EU for southern uh

[22:43] >> uh um um we talked about commercial

[22:45] relationships Um

[22:48] um and we talked about foreign direct

[22:51] investment and all these issues

[22:54] uh education

[22:57] and then um

[22:59] uh we set up dialogues in a working

[23:01] group on the economy and commercial

[23:04] relations

[23:06] um with the secretary of treasury,

[23:08] science and technology innovation with

[23:10] the secretary of energy, bilateral

[23:13] regional and global issues with

[23:14] secretary of state defense defense and

[23:17] security with the Secretary of Defense,

[23:20] people-to-people with the State

[23:21] Department, public diplomacy and other

[23:23] exchanges.

[23:25] And then we discussed they wanted to

[23:26] become part of TPP.

[23:29] >> Um

[23:30] >> um uh re uh um

[23:36] remaining focus is in oh for for them to

[23:40] become part of it they had to deal with

[23:42] international

[23:44] in intellectual property environment

[23:46] stateowned enterprises

[23:48] investment and financial services.

[23:51] um uh bilaterally they were on deal talk

[23:55] about market access and uh between us

[23:59] and agricultural in terms of government

[24:02] procurement.

[24:03] The next round the you would be in the

[24:05] US on the 26th to the 1st of February

[24:08] 26th of of January January.

[24:12] The finest min the final ministerial

[24:14] meeting for us to decide whether we

[24:16] would they could be part of TP was going

[24:18] to be March 6 to 8th with Japan. Um

[24:23] uh um uh

[24:27] uh the uh

[24:31] they were hardening their position on

[24:33] automobiles

[24:36] and um uh

[24:43] we're we we're prepared to spend a new

[24:47] a new proposal on autos. Brazil, one of

[24:51] the most protective markets in the

[24:53] world. High tariffs,

[24:55] complex tax system, regulatory regimes,

[24:58] reliance on localization measures mean

[25:01] you got to buy and sell local in the

[25:03] market. Okay.

[25:04] >> Industrial policy etc. and went through

[25:07] all the problems. Objective was restart

[25:10] all the dialogues including the CEO

[25:12] dialogue and the presidential dialogues

[25:14] and the CEO dialogue. reason she is

[25:17] meeting with me and doing this, it helps

[25:20] her politics with the business

[25:22] community. Uh and uh um uh and until now

[25:29] their deliberal was her uh her just

[25:33] showing up. Um

[25:36] uh the uh lingering issues were the uh

[25:41] defense cooperation agreement uh more

[25:44] interaction between our militaries

[25:47] general secretary of the military uh uh

[25:51] information agreement shared technical

[25:53] classified information open skies for

[25:56] civil aviation and peaceful use of space

[25:58] they're all being discussed

[26:01] now on the sixth

[26:03] I'm opening up the uh Mexico where I'm

[26:07] on the 6th.

[26:13] This is really a busy time. Um

[26:23] okay, this one opened up the uh the

[26:26] Mexico high level dialogue.

[26:29] >> U met with Penetto. This is in

[26:31] Washington.

[26:33] Um,

[26:34] and I broke off at 11:45 because I had

[26:38] to uh swear in the new Senate.

[26:41] >> Okay.

[26:41] >> On the 6th. Um,

[26:45] and then uh I also that day

[26:50] I went to it was a big deal to him. I

[26:52] went to the unveiling of the portrait of

[26:56] Representative

[26:57] >> Conjurs

[26:59] >> in the uh um so

[27:03] that's what I did the next day. Um

[27:08] uh

[27:17] next day the thing I did a whole lot but

[27:19] it was basically uh um

[27:24] there was a principal committee meeting

[27:26] in the the SEC but I did uh I swore in

[27:30] Mark Gilbert who had been helpful on our

[27:32] campaigns ambassador to Australia

[27:35] Um

[27:37] I mean to New Zealand, New Zealand. Um

[27:43] and I did some other swearing ins the

[27:46] next day. Um now this is new Congress

[27:53] and I was also the [clears throat] point

[27:55] man with uh with the Congress. So Kevin

[27:59] McCarthy wanted to meet with me

[28:01] privately. Um and uh and and we did that

[28:06] afternoon. I believe we got at the Naval

[28:09] Observatory.

[28:11] Um

[28:13] and uh

[28:18] and then I I dropped by later that night

[28:21] at uh the United uh the UFCW commercial

[28:27] workers, food and commercial workers,

[28:29] Joe Hansen. I drop by reception they

[28:32] had. Um

[28:35] and again now um the next day

[28:39] um

[28:50] I went to um

[28:53] I went down to San Antonio. I went to

[28:56] Knoxville, Tennessee and Clinton,

[28:58] Tennessee in San Antonio, Texas.

[29:01] And what was I doing? I spoke at a

[29:03] community college in uh to 450 people

[29:08] in uh

[29:10] Pellissippi State Community College.

[29:15] Then uh

[29:22] that wasn't the Techmer trip, was it?

[29:23] [snorts] It may have been wheels up.

[29:34] I then was at um

[29:37] went to San Diego.

[29:40] Uh

[29:43] um

[29:45] from 6:40 to 7:40 remarks at the student

[29:49] veterans of America of America

[29:51] convention. I spoke

[29:55] So again back to the large picture

[29:58] >> during this period I was doing a lot of

[30:00] stuff on Mexico

[30:02] and um

[30:05] and with the high level dialogues um uh

[30:10] uh and trying to work out energy and uh

[30:14] um uh

[30:17] and connectivity uh um Uh

[30:24] um

[30:29] and then

[30:30] >> can can we back up for a second to the

[30:32] 5th of January? And uh yeah, and can we

[30:36] spend some time on

[30:38] >> that

[30:39] that

[30:42] I had all those

[30:45] presidential notes.

[30:48] Um,

[30:52] we have I know you gave me this much

[30:55] from the um

[30:57] >> actually separate from presidential.

[31:00] >> I wonder where those

[31:10] >> do you have separate notebooks of the

[31:12] >> Yeah.

[31:13] every after every

[31:17] lunch,

[31:19] >> I would dictate to

[31:22] um I would dictate to I'd call in uh

[31:26] >> Mhm.

[31:27] >> and I'd dictate to her what the lunch

[31:29] was about.

[31:32] Um and uh

[31:36] you call her um

[31:39] um

[31:55] I had all those at the house in a safe.

[31:58] I don't know what we they made me do

[32:00] with them. Um but um what I'd do, I'd

[32:04] make up a card,

[32:06] >> one of those little cards of mine before

[32:08] I'd have lunch. I'd meet with Steve and

[32:11] anything anybody thought I should be

[32:13] bringing up that on our agenda and then

[32:16] um and I'd come back and I'd dictate

[32:18] notes to

[32:19] >> okay

[32:20] >> as to uh um what actually transpired at

[32:23] the lunch.

[32:24] So this is um

[32:28] I must have met

[32:32] with clay.

[32:40] Only thing I saw possible that day was

[32:44] the um maybe the the early morning um at

[32:47] the at navs or something.

[33:08] Oh, did I

[33:49] at on the 4th.

[33:57] at 2:00.

[33:59] >> Mhm.

[34:02] I think I spoke at I went to

[34:17] So I think I went to that memorial

[34:20] service in Wilmington.

[34:23] Um uh says

[34:27] December the 4th, but I don't I don't

[34:29] know what this means. memorial service

[34:34] gets names really up. So it says

[34:37] uh memorial service for

[34:40] I don't think her name was I forget.

[34:49] So I got to make a note of that too. But

[34:52] any rate, um, back to, uh, um, there was

[34:57] I had a meeting with Ron Clay

[35:01] and I don't know when, um,

[35:05] uh,

[35:28] During this period,

[35:31] remember we talked about it earlier,

[35:34] we're focusing on what we're doing

[35:36] substantively, but during this period,

[35:39] um

[35:40] we uh uh

[35:44] there was a lot of discussion and

[35:47] mounting pressure from my own team that

[35:50] I announce

[35:51] >> right

[35:52] >> and that I couldn't that I couldn't

[35:54] delay it much longer and Ron Clay was

[35:59] making the case how I would run because

[36:02] I was arguing that and it was true that

[36:06] uh there was disappointment

[36:09] on the part of Democrats in Barack's not

[36:12] being more aggressive about a lot of

[36:14] things

[36:15] >> and Hillary was criticizing him. she was

[36:18] out by now. Um, and others were

[36:21] criticizing him. And this is where this

[36:25] came in. Ron's advice was that um um I

[36:31] should actually do a speech to put all

[36:33] of them on he said scatter tax in their

[36:36] path

[36:37] >> by talking about what we've done be much

[36:41] more aggressive about uh um uh um um

[36:46] while they're talking about how much

[36:48] they changed their approach to the

[36:49] economy from Obama.

[36:51] Um he said uh here here's why they're

[36:55] they're wrong. Um he said the speech

[36:58] topic suggests he said aggressively

[37:00] defend the president. Throw thumbtacks

[37:03] in their path. Frame the box for the

[37:06] others who are running one they can't

[37:09] get out of. This will allow me to find

[37:11] the middle class. Define the middle

[37:14] class. So challenge uh without naming

[37:17] Hillary or others

[37:19] >> and uh it will challenge the Democratic

[37:23] critics of Hillary. Oh, excuse me.

[37:25] Critics, including Hillary. In other

[37:28] words, make the case for Obama. Uh look,

[37:31] make the case that basically says, I'll

[37:34] take the blame for every mistake we made

[37:36] as long as you give me all the credit,

[37:37] too. Um and we did a great job

[37:41] challenged Democratic critics, including

[37:43] Hillary. The other piece of that was we

[37:46] had decided and Mike's idea was and Ron

[37:50] was still loyal in those days was uh um

[37:54] was to say because he came in to see me

[37:56] and I took extensive notes. I don't know

[37:58] where the hell they are. Um uh the um uh

[38:05] that uh Mike's idea was look this is

[38:09] what we've done and I'm proud of it and

[38:12] I'll take credit for it if you I'll take

[38:13] blame and credit but this is what I'm

[38:16] going to do from here

[38:17] >> right

[38:18] >> instead of going after what he we didn't

[38:20] do

[38:20] >> right

[38:22] >> and what they were doing other say well

[38:24] you know if I were Barack I would have

[38:26] done more in the economy well I was a

[38:28] really lonely voice on housing And I was

[38:30] a lonely voice on the middle class. I

[38:32] mean, I thought we should be much more

[38:34] aggressive in putting these guys in jail

[38:37] and the bankers. I mean, for real.

[38:39] >> Um, it wasn't idle. I mean, he used to

[38:41] really get pissed at me. Um, and I tried

[38:44] I stopped doing

[38:45] >> Rock used to get pissed.

[38:46] >> Oh, yeah. Really pissed

[38:47] >> because I think the reason he didn't do

[38:49] it was I think he does buy this argument

[38:53] of the moral hazard. You know, like you

[38:55] went out and took a risk. Right.

[38:57] >> I remember getting a briefing from uh

[39:00] from his economic team saying to me that

[39:03] I didn't understand this is not

[39:05] >> this is not the middle class of of World

[39:08] War post World War II. These are all

[39:10] greedy bastards who all went out and

[39:12] borrowed money in these on these crazy

[39:15] cockami loans because they wanted a

[39:16] fifth bedroom. They wanted a swimming

[39:18] pool. They wanted a place at the beach.

[39:20] You know, that's what the new

[39:22] middle class was that and they're part

[39:24] of it. The millennials. That's what they

[39:26] >> um anyway that was the constant fight

[39:29] with me. Clay was on my side when he was

[39:33] there. Um and my whole team was always I

[39:36] I I had the team that said including

[39:39] >> the two guys who I think were with me

[39:42] were um um oh god the guy at Princeton

[39:46] now um economist uh good guy uh was our

[39:51] our uh chief economic advisor not

[39:55] Kaufman um I think of his name and the

[39:59] guy back out the University of Chicago

[40:01] um with a funny name. I think

[40:05] >> Goulsby is one.

[40:06] >> Goulby.

[40:06] >> Yeah, Goulsby is in Chicago.

[40:08] >> And the other guys at Princeton should

[40:10] write the name down. I keep forgetting.

[40:23] >> Is it uh Allen Krueger?

[40:25] >> Alan Krueger. Great guy by the way and a

[40:28] big fan, a big supporter. So um

[40:34] so we we were on the same team along

[40:37] with um uh you know uh you know my team

[40:42] my my internal staff but it was

[40:45] constant. I think the reason why we

[40:46] didn't do more by the way is because I

[40:49] think that it was harsh thing to say but

[40:52] I think subconscious at least uh um uh

[40:56] Barack and his guys were beholden to

[40:58] Silicon Valley

[41:00] >> right

[41:00] >> and the valley guys didn't want this

[41:02] that you know I wanted to you know

[41:04] >> they want free rain out there.

[41:06] >> Yeah. And the other thing was that there

[41:08] was a um a guy who was a big Barack

[41:13] supporter early on is Jamie Diamond.

[41:16] >> Yeah.

[41:17] >> And Jamie Diamond was uh part of people

[41:21] should have gone out of jail. But

[41:23] >> well Jamie Diamond is the architect of

[41:25] the Clinton, you know, let's end um

[41:28] >> Yeah.

[41:28] >> Uh Glasssteagall.

[41:30] >> Yeah.

[41:31] >> He's the whole game, right?

[41:32] >> Yeah. And so uh so there was Jamie

[41:36] Diamond

[41:37] >> and he was and he was always part of

[41:39] that that team right of advisers and

[41:42] outside advisers that had

[41:44] >> Yeah. And um so you know even though we

[41:48] weren't quote

[41:50] tied to Wall Street bankers, we were

[41:51] pretty well tied to Wall Street bankers.

[41:53] >> Right.

[41:54] >> Right.

[41:54] >> Um so

[41:55] >> and Summers was always

[41:57] >> and Summers came to me said he was wrong

[42:00] after we got Yeah. came. He says, "I was

[42:03] wrong about the housing piece. I should

[42:04] have been more much more aggressive. We

[42:06] should have given more leeway. We should

[42:07] have which was really something else."

[42:10] And he when he came to me, and I'll get

[42:12] the date, remind me when did Summers

[42:14] come to me to have lunch, which uh it

[42:17] was when I was thinking about running.

[42:19] >> Okay.

[42:20] >> Um

[42:21] >> because Summers is not a guy who's known

[42:23] for admitting to mistakes.

[42:25] >> No. No.

[42:33] Well, it is that um also the um

[42:36] >> here's what happened before I forget.

[42:38] Don't mind my train of thought.

[42:43] Um he also pledged he support me in

[42:46] 2016.

[42:48] Summers.

[42:48] >> Yeah. Now, part of the reason for that

[42:50] was

[42:52] Barack had promised him the Fed and I

[42:56] thought he should have appointed him to

[42:57] the Fed.

[42:58] and Barack backed off the agreement,

[43:01] backed off that promise, Larry, and it

[43:04] really, really pissed Larry off. He was

[43:07] going to be appointed to the Fed

[43:08] >> because Larry was not was too

[43:11] >> too much of a

[43:13] >> liability.

[43:14] >> It was, you know, Harvard and women and

[43:18] >> Yeah.

[43:18] >> But it was just he just didn't.

[43:21] So um

[43:25] any rate so the context

[43:33] uh no tell them another 10 minutes.

[43:37] >> Okay.

[43:38] >> Um tell them 15 minutes so I'll I'll

[43:40] have a chance to read.

[43:42] >> Um

[43:44] so um you tell them I'm in meeting.

[43:48] Okay. still

[43:50] um

[43:51] uh so um

[43:57] anyway so the issue was this is all you

[44:00] know all this is happen simultaneously

[44:04] the issue was about running for

[44:06] president which is still very present in

[44:08] everything we're doing you know I mean

[44:10] um it was that uh um we uh uh um how

[44:17] would I handle the fact that I disagreed

[44:20] with him.

[44:20] >> Right.

[44:21] >> Well, the and Ron was he's very good,

[44:25] but uh I'm so disappointed he was so

[44:28] disloyal. That was such a really hurt my

[44:30] feeling. I mean, it just disappointed

[44:32] about him.

[44:33] >> Yeah.

[44:34] >> I don't think he's happy.

[44:35] >> I know he knows better,

[44:37] >> right?

[44:37] >> I know he you know, like even that email

[44:40] that got exposed, remember?

[44:42] >> Yeah. I It didn't I couldn't quite

[44:44] understand what he was saying. What he

[44:46] was saying was I can't continue to play

[44:48] this double role.

[44:50] >> Yeah.

[44:50] >> Because he had he had he's now he's

[44:53] talking me out of running. He went from

[44:55] go go go go.

[44:57] >> He's still being invited to our

[44:59] meetings. He's going I don't know. I

[45:00] don't know. Maybe a little late. While

[45:02] at the same time already

[45:05] >> Hillary debate. Yeah.

[45:06] >> And uh now here's what I think happened.

[45:09] I think what happened was I think Ron

[45:13] knowing me concluded that I wouldn't go

[45:16] >> and that if he stayed with me that he

[45:20] would lose his chance

[45:22] >> right

[45:22] >> to be part of this new administration

[45:24] which he wanted and but I still think he

[45:29] thought I would have been better but he

[45:31] knew that I

[45:34] >> right

[45:34] >> and would probably end up not doing it

[45:36] and he'd be left hanging

[45:37] >> so instead of having the nerve to come

[45:39] to me and say, "Look, I want to be

[45:42] involved. I'm loyal to you, but I don't

[45:44] think you're going to do it. If you can

[45:46] tell me you're going to do it now, I'll

[45:47] stay."

[45:48] >> Right?

[45:48] >> But if you can't, I I have to take

[45:50] advantage of this opportunity,

[45:52] >> which is what I would have done. You

[45:53] would have done to me,

[45:55] >> he didn't have the courage to do it,

[45:56] >> right?

[46:12] Right.

[46:13] >> Steve had the same opportunities. Mike

[46:15] had a similar opportunities, you know,

[46:17] but they didn't do that. They stayed.

[46:19] >> Right.

[46:20] >> So, I get No, I don't try to sell them

[46:22] on giving cutting him any slack, you

[46:24] know, because they stuck [clears throat]

[46:25] it out. Yeah.

[46:26] >> Um so anyway, that was the context of

[46:30] this how would I run and um and so the

[46:35] discussions that uh uh revolved around

[46:40] what the strategy would be if I didn't

[46:42] run.

[46:43] >> Mhm.

[46:43] >> You with me?

[46:44] >> Yep.

[46:45] >> Uh and it was less at that point was I

[46:48] going to announce at that time. It was

[46:50] more at that point how was I going to

[46:52] run?

[46:53] >> Right. So, what I was saying to these

[46:55] guys, looking back on it, what I was

[46:56] saying to them was, "Look, guys, I don't

[46:59] know that I'm going to go, but let's

[47:01] move like you're going to go, right? Put

[47:03] together the plan

[47:05] >> that uh that this is a really important

[47:08] point. Put together the plan

[47:10] >> that would allow me to win the

[47:12] nomination and be elected president. But

[47:15] don't What I'm not prepared to do, I'm

[47:17] not prepared to ask other people to

[47:19] commit,

[47:20] >> right?

[47:21] >> And then box themselves in." Now, I

[47:23] shouldn't have thought that way. I

[47:24] should should have thought, "Fuck him."

[47:27] But I was worried. I didn't want as a

[47:29] matter of honor

[47:31] to have people do what Ron ended up

[47:34] doing,

[47:34] >> right?

[47:35] >> Do you know what I mean?

[47:36] >> I I didn't want to get them locked in

[47:39] and then deciding if I didn't go then,

[47:42] godamn it, I could have, you know, I

[47:44] could have been a champ,

[47:45] >> you know, I could have been a contender.

[47:47] But the people you were talking to most

[47:49] closely, Steve and Mike, they basically

[47:52] knew.

[47:52] >> No, they knew. And I think they, you

[47:55] know, they just didn't know. And by the

[47:57] way, you know, they also knew.

[48:03] >> Yeah.

[48:03] >> And

[48:06] and um so it was and they

[48:10] I Steve by the way for all his

[48:12] gregariousness and hey, how you doing?

[48:15] Pretty smart guy. um pretty insightful

[48:18] guy. Yeah.

[48:18] >> Um and I think he knew uh

[48:22] >> but um but the context again throughout

[48:25] this whole period was okay my decision

[48:29] in my head was you want you know what

[48:31] was I thinking in January,

[48:40] >> right?

[48:42] >> Right. But so, you know, we may be able

[48:46] to do this. Um, uh, but I don't want to

[48:50] get out too far that I put people out on

[48:52] a limb and then it gets sought off and

[48:54] they're in trouble. But the guys who are

[48:57] willing, who don't have that as their

[48:59] objective, just being an administration,

[49:01] then let's go ahead and decide how we

[49:04] will run,

[49:04] >> right?

[49:05] uh you know uh and all during this

[49:08] period Mike's strongest argument for why

[49:12] we were would run and win and it turned

[49:14] out everything he wrote have you read

[49:15] some of the stuff

[49:16] >> talk to me about it here

[49:18] >> well I got to show we got to get the

[49:19] memos

[49:22] um turned out to be

[49:25] >> right

[49:25] >> what it was including her weaknesses and

[49:27] my strengths

[49:28] >> the care but also the authenticity

[49:30] looking for something real

[49:31] >> but he said look he he kept coming back

[49:34] to this one thing. This race, no matter

[49:38] how you cut it, is going to be about the

[49:41] middle class.

[49:43] You are the single most authentic person

[49:46] in the United States of American

[49:48] American politics that authentically can

[49:51] speak to the middle class. No one doubts

[49:54] that it's anything other than who you

[49:56] are. No one doubts it is something that

[50:00] you have been focused on from the day

[50:02] you ran for office. And you are you are

[50:06] the embodiment of that. And the middle

[50:08] class gets it, you know, all those folks

[50:11] out there, they look at you and say,

[50:13] "Yes, he knows my problem."

[50:16] >> And so so how did you deal with the

[50:20] middle class who were the ones being who

[50:23] were the ones still being hurt

[50:27] and not abandon Barack? Well, the way to

[50:30] do that was to say, "Look what we did

[50:32] now, man.

[50:34] Let's understand. That's where I came up

[50:35] with the phrase spontaneously when that

[50:38] I said everything has landed on this

[50:39] man's desk except locust, right?

[50:42] >> And it's true.

[50:43] >> And it is true. I mean what you guys

[50:46] walked into the first day.

[50:47] >> It was astounding.

[50:49] >> And so and look what we did now. Granite

[50:53] now we have to go back and from square

[50:55] one began to build back the middle

[50:58] class. All we did was save you basically

[51:02] from depression,

[51:04] >> right?

[51:04] >> Save you from being all

[51:08] everything go,

[51:08] >> right? Um now admittedly what I wasn't

[51:11] focusing on then I wasn't focusing on

[51:16] while we were trying to save the economy

[51:18] how rapidly the economy was changing.

[51:21] >> Mhm.

[51:21] >> The digitalization issue the fourth

[51:24] industrial revolution. What was going I

[51:26] wasn't focused on robots and artificial

[51:29] intelligence and and uh um

[51:32] digitalization and um Moore's law. I

[51:37] mean uh it was all about and I really

[51:39] believe that and I still believe it that

[51:43] we could bring back the uh manufacturing

[51:46] in America. I didn't think that was uh

[51:49] lost. Um and uh um

[51:55] and I wasn't so big on globalization. I

[51:58] mean I I I I I wasn't I thought TPP the

[52:01] reason I felt first of all I think we

[52:04] did not negotiate tough enough on TPP

[52:08] >> but secondly what I thought was I

[52:11] thought with TPP

[52:13] um uh we uh um uh it [snorts] was more

[52:18] of a foreign policy document

[52:22] >> than it was as much a foreign policy

[52:25] document as an economic document. um and

[52:28] that uh we could have been tougher in

[52:31] terms of protecting, you know, uh uh get

[52:36] getting a better deal for American

[52:38] workers. And I was, for example, even in

[52:41] the foreign policy piece, as recently as

[52:44] the last four months we were in office,

[52:47] I was arguing when it comes to China in

[52:49] the South China Sea and uh air

[52:52] identification zones and the islands

[52:55] they're building in the South China Sea.

[52:58] I argued that we had much more leverage

[53:00] than China had

[53:02] >> in terms of the need for economic

[53:04] cooperation and that we should be

[53:06] prepared to threaten economic

[53:08] cooperation.

[53:09] >> It's cheaper than the war and it hurts

[53:11] us but it kills them.

[53:14] >> My argument and one of the themes I want

[53:16] to get through here in this this book as

[53:18] it relates to the foreign policy

[53:21] domestic side of this is that I think we

[53:24] always underestimate our power as a

[53:26] nation.

[53:26] >> Mhm. I think we always underestimate our

[53:29] power. And

[53:31] >> you mean non-military power?

[53:34] >> I think we always underestimate our

[53:36] leverage, including

[53:39] including the backup possibility of

[53:42] military power. In other words, that's

[53:44] not the reason. If we didn't have the

[53:46] military power,

[53:47] >> right,

[53:48] >> to back it up, then all these other

[53:50] things would have less consequence. they

[53:52] were doing. But for so, for example, and

[53:54] I finally convinced I thought I'd

[53:56] convinced Barack that in a situation

[53:59] where we were um

[54:03] if if we decided that we were going to

[54:07] really come down on them on steel, which

[54:10] I thought we should have,

[54:12] >> um that it would have a dramatically

[54:15] negative impact on their economy. And if

[54:18] we were decided that we would come down

[54:21] on intellectual property,

[54:23] >> like for example, we nailed them. They

[54:25] uh they literally stole um not only a um

[54:30] u um uh uh the solar market from us.

[54:37] They stole the technology.

[54:40] The technology

[54:43] that this company had that allowed them

[54:46] to produce a more profitable I mean a a

[54:51] a uh a a a more um efficient right.

[54:55] >> Yeah. Efficient solar power.

[54:57] >> Yeah.

[54:58] >> I mean they stole it. Um, and I

[55:01] thought we should have sanctioned them

[55:03] and made no and every time I'd meet with

[55:06] she, I don't want to get off on this,

[55:08] but well, every time I meet with them,

[55:10] my argument would be, "Look, man, you

[55:13] play by the rules. No problem. You don't

[55:16] want to play by the rules, we we impose,

[55:18] you know, the consequence of not paying

[55:20] by the rules. We're going to compete.

[55:22] You want to compete, fairy. You You want

[55:24] a different relationship, we got it. It

[55:27] can be new, but it's got to be by

[55:29] rules." So if you don't, it's okay if

[55:30] you don't play by the rules, we're going

[55:32] to enforce the sanctions. Well, we never

[55:35] there was always a reluctance,

[55:36] >> right? There's no, you couldn't put any

[55:38] teeth behind that.

[55:39] >> Yeah. But there was a lot there were a

[55:40] lot of teeth, but there was worry that

[55:42] we would get hurt more than because what

[55:44] would happen is we'd say, "We're going

[55:46] to come down on solar energy." They say,

[55:48] "Oh you know what they're going to

[55:49] do? They're going to retaliate against

[55:50] business machines."

[55:51] >> Uh, you know, and god damn it, then

[55:53] we're going to be in a war. Okay. Well,

[55:55] so they lose the market in China for

[55:58] business machines. No problem. Let them

[56:00] go somewhere else. You know, they

[56:02] need us. They need our market,

[56:04] >> right?

[56:05] >> They need us.

[56:07] >> And but we're never able to. It's a

[56:10] little bit like how it's always harder

[56:13] to do the right thing because it always

[56:16] cost you something,

[56:18] >> right? it costs something and there's

[56:21] always the reluctance to to you know

[56:24] take the pain now even though the pain

[56:28] it's you know it's it's hard two things

[56:31] it's hard to prove

[56:33] that

[56:35] if I don't do this things are going to

[56:37] get worse

[56:39] >> right

[56:40] >> you do it things get worse then they get

[56:43] better but it's hard to prove that had

[56:45] not done that they would have not gotten

[56:46] better

[56:47] >> right yeah nobody shown us the

[56:48] alternative.

[56:49] >> No, didn't have the al So, but that's

[56:52] leadership,

[56:53] >> right?

[56:54] >> That's what leadership is.

[56:56] >> You also have to make a case.

[56:58] >> Yeah. No, you make the case, but lots of

[56:59] times the case doesn't goes down. The

[57:02] case I made, you work at a at a widget

[57:06] factory and you know, I impose sanctions

[57:08] and they stop buying widgets. Well, you

[57:11] don't want to hear this right?

[57:12] you know, made the case, you know, but

[57:15] it's the only thing I mean, that's

[57:17] leadership and that's what that that

[57:20] was. But but Rock was always I guess

[57:22] every president maybe I president I

[57:24] would have not had the nerve to do it

[57:25] too, but that's

[57:28] >> it was always on the margins, but it

[57:30] was, you know, we, you know, like I

[57:31] said, and I between you and me, I mean,

[57:34] Barack was always got to the right spot,

[57:36] but a day late and a dollar short. I

[57:38] mean, you know, it's not all the time,

[57:40] but he got

[57:42] >> Anyway, I I should take this call. Um,

[57:45] >> one

[57:47] liftoff.

[57:49] Liftoff.

[57:50] >> Every day, history unfolds.

[57:53] >> Chance to change the lives of millions

[57:56] of people for the better. That's why I

[57:58] came into politics.

[57:59] >> A decision is made. A question is asked.

[58:09] A protest begins.

[58:13] A missile is launched.

[58:15] [applause and music]

[58:17] A treaty is signed.

[58:18] >> Change the political structures in this

[58:20] country for a [music] long time to come.

[58:22] >> It is deeply humbling.

[58:24] >> A vote is counted. [music]

[58:27] The world changes.

[58:28] >> We will have to raise our vices.

[58:30] >> We oppose violence, hate.

[58:31] >> It is not a solution.

[58:33] >> We demand accountability from the

[58:34] government.

[58:35] >> Are we ready? But before the headlines,

[58:39] before the debates,

[58:41] before the opinions,

[58:43] >> there is the moment itself,

[58:45] >> the words that were spoken.

[58:47] >> By 2008, we knew that Epstein was a

[58:50] convicted sexual abuser. HOW WAS THAT

[58:52] NOT A DEAL breaker for the president?

[58:54] >> If you, Congresswoman, um, asked Bill

[58:56] Clinton that,

[58:57] >> the people who lived it, the images that

[59:00] tell the story, because the closer you

[59:02] are to the event, the closer you are to

[59:04] the truth.

[59:08] At AP, we believe news should begin

[59:10] where history happens, not where the

[59:12] arguments begin. Or

[59:14] >> do you want to go there?

[59:15] >> That's why we bring you the moments that

[59:17] matter. Accurate, powerful, timely, so

[59:21] you can see more, understand more, and

[59:24] decide for yourself.

[59:26] Accurate, powerful, timely. [music]

[59:35] >> [music]