Joe Rogan Experience #2211 - Michael Shellenberger

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day Mr shellenberger good to see you good to see you man how you been man every day every day NE deep neck deep in the chaos of the world I made it I made it to Brazil and back so put it that way what was that like it was intense man I mean it was uh it's still going on um we did Twitter files Brazil right and 3 days later that was back in March 3 Days Later Elon just throws down and starts to attack this main Supreme Court Justice who's the guy that's now banned X so X is banned in Brazil they're in negotiations but it was very exciting to be there because and the Brazilians were just relieved they were like everything that we thought was happening as proven by the Twitter files Brazil and they were just very grateful to so it's been what did the Twitter fires I know about the Twitter files America I don't know about the Twitter files in Brazil so they this is like one of the most extreme forms of censorship we've seen in Democratic countries um India's been pretty bad too but this what they were the worst of it was that they were sucker is it yeah it's just bring it up to you how's that that better good to go this is the most dramatic part is that they were the judge this is a Supreme Court Justice who is basically the dictator of Brazil is had was demanding that particular journalists and politicians just be banned not only from X but from every other social media platform which is a tactic that we had seen in earlier censorship files we had done something on something called the Cyber threat intelligence League uh with taiii showing this it was an early military censorship operation and they had had a list of tactics and one of them was to get people banned on every platform so you're basically like just deerson people just destroying their career you can't make a career on as a journalist or a politician if you're banned from every platform so that was the one of the most dramatic Parts all in secret all and you know open investigations ongoing and basically nobody there's no checks and balances there's no chance to argue with it so that came out and Elon responded like three days later and was like yeah Brazil's like worst in the world and just starts attacking the Supreme Court Justices like Darth Vader and Voldemort and doing what Elon does fast forward to last month and they had a huge protest in s Paulo one of the largest Free Speech protest in history which was itself just amazing and inspiring because you know it's a free speech has been something that we didn't really think we had to fight for so to see like hundreds of thousands of people in the street of s Paulo was amazing I was there with the former president he sort of sees me brings me up I'm up up on top of the stage he's you know just you know B you know yelling at the crowd everyone's worked up you know he kind of looks over at me and covers the mic and he's like it's shellenberger right you know he's like Michael shellenberger is up here and the crowds just you know they knew about the Twitter files afterwards we go down and it's just you know it's just a lot of emotion and anger but also hope the Brazilian people are for me it's like one of the most exciting cultures in the world because they're so expressive the president like while he's speaking he's like crying you know it's a very like emotionally open culture so now I mean the question for Elon and they're having to to negotiate this is do you do you out of principle keep you know X banned in Brazil to defend the several dozen people that the government is requiring be banned permanently but that means that 20 million Brazilians are denied X as a platform or or do you go along with what the government's demanding and hope to fight for another day and that's what's happening now the the 12 people it's 12 people we we actually don't know but it probably under a hundred and what are they being accused of that the government is saying is so important that they need to be banned misinformation you know it particularly you can see every country in the world is particularly obsessed with covid misinformation and election misinformation so but to give you an example of how how arbitrary and unjust it is there's one of the members of Congress who's one of the most dynamic he's not actually in the party of bolsonaro that's the the controversial former president he's in a different party um his name is Marcel Von hotton and he was he got in he didn't even know this until the Twitter files Brazil came out and then Elon did release because the House of Representatives Jim Jordan asked for these internal files from a he subpoenaed them so we even learned more information from those files they they showed that vanon hton had he was he was supposedly being deplatformed for election misinformation but it turned out that the video he posted was posted the day after the elections and it had to do with labor issues had nothing to do with elections and that's just really common I mean you just see it's just arbitrary rule by one guy that's why I say it's a dictatorship and has there been any debate or discussion like has anybody try to hold them to the fire as to why these people are being banned and please prove that this is misinformation has there been any sort of discussion oh huge I mean it's maybe one of the biggest issues in Brazil it's the president of Brazil who probably hasn't gotten enough criticism for it because he's going along with it he defended the censorship this is Lula I always heard that he was a great guy when Gyra balsero was the president the the the narrative was balsero was a dictator that he was a bad guy but I know so many Brazilians you know from Jiu-Jitsu I know so many Brazilians and they all love balsero I was like I am so confused about their politics over there I don't know what's going on but Lulu was supposed to be this guy that was for the people and to hear that he is a part of this whole disinformation Crackdown alleged disinformation crack down it's so disheartening well yeah I mean for me person so the funny thing is I had this just coincidentally I have this deep relationship with Brazil because I lived in Brazil in the in the early 90s I was working I was actually working towards my PhD in the semi Amazon I went to Rio and S Paulo I interviewed Lula in 1994 sat across from him just like I'm saying across from you right now what was your take on him I I love I mean at the time I loved him I mean I was you know I was on the radical laugh for right you know up until you know five minutes ago and so um up until the Kool-Aid wore off yeah I mean even until the I mean really even up until the censorship part I mean when when you start censoring you're just like not to digress but it's kind of like you know back in the 90s we were anti-war pro- free speech and pro and pro gay rights now the left is is pro censorship proar and engaged in horrible medical mistreatment of gay children in the name of trans medicine so it's like literally like who changed here right you know my values did stay the same at least on those things but anyway I mean I sat across from and I just said you know everybody says that you're going to turn Brazil into Cuba he does love fedel Castro but he said absolutely not he does seriously they like they're Bros they're no they're Bros I mean but seems like a bit of a problem the thing is that in Latin America like like everybody on the left even some of the center left they actually had a lot of respect for Fidel um I know I know it's amazing but they really did so crazy yeah um he's a very Fidel's a very he was a very charismatic person I actually met him too really I met all these guys I met ug Justin Trudeau's dad oh hell yeah have you seen the photographs it's crazy it is crazy it really is crazy it's I mean but he kind of looks like his dad too I yeah maybe I mean for me it's like R it's like Ronan Pharaoh the r pH Frank Sinatra one is just insane yeah that is not Woody Allen's kid like no if that one's more dramatic than the that one's crazy I mean that looks like Frank Sinatra what are the odds unless like she loves Sinatra so much she like willed him into existence in her own child uh yeah Immaculate Conception yeah um but anyway so I mean I asked Lula directly I said uh and I actually wrote an article for a left-wing magazine at the time I said are you going to try to turn Brazil into Cuba and have censorship and he said absolutely not our socialism is going to be Democratic socialism and that was my attraction to Brazil too was that I mean here you I mean into into the Workers Party into Lula I mean he super he had all the stuff that you loved about the left but he was going to respect free speech so I you know basically after the Twitter files Brazil and the and the workers party you know and Lula just start defending censorship then I start going after Lula too and I'm like you lied to me and this is you know what do you think Chang acceptable wow great question I mean there's a way in which it's the same thing that changed for the left everywhere I mean this is the question we're always asking which is like how I mean because you know if you read the histories I've been you know I'm now by the way I'm so I'm we're going to spend three months in Austin every year now cuz I'm the CBR chair of of politics censorship and free speech at the University of Austin oh I'm the first and only endowed chair there so um so it's exciting so I'm here and welcome thank you man I'm really yeah we just bought a little house and nice yeah nice so yeah I mean one of the because of course if you read the histories of free speech particularly the last couple hundred years it's really the it's really the right sense in the left there's a few exceptions but I mean overwhelmingly all the way back to the original you know French Parliament where they split you know the French con where they split people on left and right became a way to refer to liberals and conservatives conservatives were about protecting tradition about propriety don't say certain things you know that was like what conservatives were and then if you go to the United States like the one of the most dramatic instances of censorship here is the early part of the 20th century with the Sedition Act and that's when the that's when they were you know arrested ing socialists incarcerating thousands of people I mean it's a crazy period And so that was the that's basically the TR that's why when we were you know in the 90s and up until recently uh you know Free Speech was some was part of the left tradition so what happened I mean one of what what's clear about the censorship that's going on is it's it's it's counter populist so they're going out Zer bolsonaro like Trump is a populist candidate so one thought experiment would be if Bernie Sanders had become president 2016 would the Deep State have sided with would they have sided with the right with the Republicans to censor a populist Democratic party it's an interesting question I don't know the answer to it clearly I mean I would say the PRI right if you look at what the global Elite you know the which is kind of a center-left elite in Europe Brazil United States Canada it really wants to censor on covid elections and migration and they do the migration Mass migration stuff around hate so like if you criticize Mass migration it's hate speech and you should be censored so clearly this is a reaction by the Deep State against populism which clearly threatens them their ability to be able to wage war when they want to wage war to to move people around I mean this huge I mean the mass migration that's been occurring under Biden of course has been happening in Europe too and everybody's like what is like what's going on like why why is this is happening why do you think it's happening oh that's a great question I mean obviously the story that the traditional story had been that this is compassionate and you know this is the right thing to do and want to bring people in there's so many I mean the Democrats and the Europeans they went so far with it that it actually hurt has hurt them politically like you know kamla may lose the elections because of just the mass migration it was like the number one thing 60 Minutes asked her about just now you know in Germany the afd which is considered the farri party far just means anti-mass migration um so they went they went really far I mean you know I mean I think there's probably some truth to the idea that Democrats are bringing in folks to to increase Democratic voters that's not a conspiracy theory that's something that you know John Judas and ruy tesero wrote a whole book about called the emerging Democratic majority where they talked about how Latinos are going to side with Democrats and then another part of me just wonders if it's related is that there is a con there was a concern that populism because I mean the the the danger the threat of populism is that it's popular you know so the threat of populism is that the people actually govern rather than these deep State organizations that have constrained that you know pre- internet constrained what was acceptable they they narrowed the so-called Overton window with populism you get potentially uh populations that say we don't want to go to war in UK Ukraine we don't want to support Foreign Wars we we don't want to have M Mass migration and for a variety of reasons the these deep State organizations by which I mean you know Department of Homeland Security FBI CIA State Department are absolutely freaked out about it as are the kind of global Elite that end up supporting the ngos pushing for that same agenda George Soros um you know Craig Newark Pi midar the people that basically end up financing the NGS that the US government then comes along and finances which which by the way is another thing that we keep discovering like we'll be in Brazil and we'll be like wow these NOS are doing the exact same thing in Brazil that they're doing in Europe oh and they happen to be funded by George Soros they happen to have a factchecking groups that come along and fact check as a pretext for censorship they do Advertiser boycotts against the social media companies in order to control the social media companies obviously there was this huge infiltration of Twitter I mean since I saw you last we discovered what basically looks like a CIA to take over the content moderation at Twitter it was former CIA people um ala group uh which basically was we discovered these internal memos where they're basically trying to come in and create a special new content content moderation which is of course code for censorship how did they frame that they framed it uh it's so fascinating because of course we can see all the memos and we have it so it's not a theory they were they were addressing they they basically were in the internal in the sale the sales pitches from this althia group they were selling uh the they were basically hyping the criticisms that Twitter was getting for not censoring enough um and then they were saying well we're going to bring all this intelligence experience and you know we've got these people that are really skilled at foreign languages I mean they were promising to bring in people that spoke all these different languages and there was some internal resistance within Twitter but it basically was on track to happen and then and then Elon buys Twitter and it all all what do you think would happen if he didn't buy it I mean I mean honestly I go I mean I some you I'm careful I don't want to engage in hyperbole but I do feel like what we're seeing is totalitarianism that this is it's not tanks and torture chambers at least not yet but the this Instinct this this demand to control the entire information environment because of course it's not the censorship is in service of actually propaganda they want to they both want to they both want to prevent certain information from getting out and then they want to promote certain information and that I this is I mean when I just reread 1984 by George Orwell and it's like this is what he's talking about this is what he's worried about so do you think when social media first came along they sort of underestimated the potential and they let it become what it is and then and once it got so huge then they tried to infiltrate like perhaps after 2016 then they tried to infiltrate and kind of realized it's a little too late because there's just too many people like yourself and substack people and podcasters just too much too many popular people on Twitter that have huge accounts that are on it all day long and monetizing it and acting as legitimate independent journalists without any sort of oversight yeah 100% in fact not it's not just that they were using social media to support I mean CIA intelligence Community defense department were using social media for for Arab Spring you know for the color Revolutions in Eastern Europe it was a weapon it was part of what they call hybrid Warfare you know getting people you know mobilizing people in the streets to do regime change to overthrow governments I mean if you can the holy grail for I mean it's like sun Su you know the best way to win is by not having to fight you know so if you can not have to fire any bullets if you don't if you you know CIA 1.0 after World War II you know it's a crude military overthrow of governments CIA 2.0 regime change is you put a bunch of people on the street peaceful protest get the head of state to resign or call an early election and then overthrow the government that way so social media was a tool of US government statecraft for whatever that period was when you know Arabs spring 2011 until 2016 and then yeah I think it was basically brexit dudte in Philippines is another right-wing populace that gets elected Trump and even though I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that Trump was not elected because of social media he was elected because he defeated his opponents and his Republican opponents in the debates and then defeated Hillary in the election mostly through conventional media his use of social media and those other things clearly triggered a reaction from these deep State organizations I I like it it's funny I just read this beautiful history of the printing press and Oxford history and the printing press at first you know 15th century first hundred years the Catholic church is just like we love the printing press you know we're just cranking out Bibles and it's going great and then Martin Luther gets a hold of the printing press and prints his thesis which are mostly attacking the church for corruption for selling indulgences as a way to uh over you know pay for your sins basically and he condemns that and he literally goes viral I mean when you read like that history you're like it's eerily similar to social media I mean can you I mean it's it's amazing because well I mean long long story short there's like a long period of revolutions and wars and and the Protestant Reformation and then The Counter Reformation and they're like the printing presses they're like hiding them in people's houses the church and the the government is trying to is arresting people for having printing presses the printing presses go to Netherland you know they're sneaking the printing presses into the Netherlands and so it's like you can't help but see you're like wow it's like vpns cuz in Brazil when they were like we're going to ban X we like get a VPN you know and VPN in still hard for people to post publicly because that would obviously show that they were on it but still it's like you're always and this is sort of an argument this would be an argument for Elon to cut a deal to get X back up in Brazil and I'm not saying that's what he should do I'm just saying one argument for it is that you know stay in the game don't let them confiscate your printing press out of you know to make out of principle or Pride because at some other point you're going to be able to find a way to work around that censorship does Brazil have something similar to our first amendment they have a line in their constitution that is extremely strong that there should be no censorship for social or political issues the problem is that their constitution is so long and it was created by so many people that then all these other caveats like you can't engage in racism you can't engage in hate you can't there's the Nazis are the Nazi part is banned in Brazil so there's all sorts of other things that I mean the Constitution is full of contradictions it's a huge problem it made me the whole experience by the way because you know when you're growing up and you go to and you grow up and you go to you know you go to you know elementary school and high school and the teachers are telling you the Constitution of the United States is so special and you're just like oh come on you you know like whatever but you realize when you get older and you re you realize the First Amendment it's so radical because basically every other country in the world certainly every other Western Country the progression of free speech was you would ask the king for permission he like oh King can we criticize you for this and he'd be like oh okay we'll allow you to do that but it free speech was something gradually granted to the people here as soon as they get the Constitution done Jefferson and other anti- Federalists the people that were pretty skeptical about even wanting a country we like we need a first we need a Bill of Rights and the first thing up there needs to be free speech and it's without qualifications so the free I mean the first amendment doesn't say it doesn't say except for liable and defamation and imminent incitement of violence those things were built those things were Supreme Court rulings in the 250 years after the the Constitution was ratified in 1789 and so that's why it's so amazing is that like you just never I mean I this history I just read of of free speech it's it's so amazing because like you get all this battles over how much free speech to have is it just for the elites is it for the people then you get to the United States and it's just just a clear moment in history where the founders of this country were just like [ __ ] it like this is essential like the speech comes before the government the government you don't have a government and then have free speech we have free speech as an inalienable right from God or from our creator or just something that we're saying that we have and then you make a government based on speech so this orwellian idea that we hear including you know tragically from Barack Obama and now his two secretaries of State John krey and Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates they're saying we have to have censorship to protect democracy it's like the most orwellian unamerican idea it's anathema how is Bill dates in this conversation at all that's what's confusing a non-elected official who just owned a software company my my colleagues don't want me to talk about don't be don't don't be conspiratorial about this there's other explanations already talked about George Soros the fact the FCC fast-tracked him purchasing 200 different radio stations I mean that's kind of run of the mill corruption um I mean with with with Gates you get into you get into Epstein right right so yeah I mean so I'm not saying this is the reason but I mean it is like this is not a theory the the the current CIA director uh Bill Burns was at Epstein's apartment multiple times Bill Gates was there I I believe when last time I checked nobody knows how many times actually Bill Gates was with Jeffrey Epstein he went out and did this you know really he did this PBS interview where he just looks guilty the whole time and it's defensive talking about Epstein is that what that woman were where she when he says well he's dead now he said so you be careful which is just the wildest thing to say it's weird that yeah like you're like that's what he was thinking when she was like why are you he's he's basically like why are you going on on about it he's dead it's like well we weren't talking about him we were talking about you and your relationship with him right so I mean look so obviously there is there was a sex blackmail operate I mean I'm 90 95% % on it I think the Wall Street Journal reporters who did fantastic reporting on this are probably 99% that was a sex blackmail operation they were shooting film there were one-way mirrors they were entrapping people there's there's known connections to mad and I just don't believe that mad operates in the United States without CIA approval so the prevailing theory is which what most people believe is that they brought these people there under this premise that you're going to be there with heads of state and Industry and famous people and scientists and this is going to be an amazing place where exceptional people get together then once you get there you get a little loose and you start drinking a little and perhaps taking in some party favors and then there's ladies yep and they're underage yeah and they're and then you next thing and you don't know it but that mirror on the wall someone's filming you and then you're owned yeah so I mean look that's that's possible I mean I'm not something's going on in the fact that they haven't been released The Client List hasn't been released well or and that EP was killed in yeah in jail I mean that's just the most suspicious thing I mean I mean I don't know anybody that thinks it was suicide oh I've heard people argue it yeah they believe it so I mean look that you know that could explain it I mean look I think I mean I think Soros really believes the stuff um you know I think Gates I mean they're these are people like when you get that powerful you don't stop wanting more power you want more power and so and there's also you need to maintain power in order to protect yourself from all this stuff that we just talked about right assuming there's you have skeletons in the closet I mean we do know one of his affairs with a young Russian I think chess player bridge bridge player that's not contested that's established um when he was going through his divorce the you know uh Melinda you know like you see the leaks to the New York Times about Epstein occurred while she's negotiating over the divorce right so clearly she knew something you don't necessarily need that you don't need Epstein to explain Gates but I mean Gates he just came out with a Netflix documentary this wasn't some like off-handed remark he comes out the whole Netflix documentary talking about specifically at Great length about why we need to have censorship apparatus in place and he gave multiple reasons and one of them's protect people trying to tell you not to take vaccines right protect people from people like you yeah well I'm not even telling people not to do anything no but there's people that are spreading air quotes misinformation about vaccines right including real facts well right those are the most dangerous ones well that's what the most bizarre is that he himself has changed his take on it and and he did it sort of it seemed like to try to cover up the fact that he was promoting it for so long and well it didn't work as we wanted and Co wasn't as bad as we thought and you know it didn't really offer the protection that we you need in order to actually you know it's on a sterilizing virus doesn't actually doesn't actually kill the the virus it doesn't keep you from getting it right so it does allow transmission so he kind of admitted all those things but like oh we'll do better next time was sort of the gist of it right and this idea that you have to use you you can't have people talking about inconvenient things that eventually turn out to be true seems crazy to not push back on and the fact that he said that and there was no response whatsoever in mainstream media there was no New York Times articles written about it the Washington Post didn't cover it and talk about how [ __ ] insane it is to say something like that especially after what we've been through the gaslighting yeah I mean I just did a debate with uh Bill Nye um in Florida he's the Science Guy the Science Guy yeah how could you do a debate against the Science Guy because I'm anti-science obviously must be and you know I mean I just pointed out that simple fact that the I just point out the vaccine didn't obviously prevent infection or transmission and The Crowd Oh you know how can you say that and whatever and it's like because it because everybody knows it reduced hospitalizations and reduced death and I I agree with that I mean I that's fine but the point isn't I'm not arguing about the vaccine I'm arguing that it didn't do what they said it did and nobody's actually and then they just Gaslight you as though that were the reason they were telling you to get the vaccine in the first place was to reduce hospitalization and death no they were telling you that it was going to reduce infection and transmission Well everybody's seen that Rachel Mano clip right but here's the thing if everybody took it how do we even know if it reduced hospitalization and death we don't know and we when we know that the fact that the the people that died of Co the vast majority of them have four plus comorbidities MH and we know that some ungodly amount of the population was vaccinated was it like 80% something like that so you but you're saying that we don't know it reduced death well cuz you could you could compare the vaccinated to the unvaccinated group right could you though if you have 80% of the people that are vaccinated and the 20% that are unvaccinated are they of a particular political leaning and uh what are the health metrics of that particular political leading like has anybody done some sort of an analysis on the people that did versus didn't like what were their health what was their state of their their physical health or metabolic health Health before they made these decisions because ideally what you would look at if you wanted to find out if it if it stopped transmission uh or or excuse me hospitalization or death you would want to look at the overall body of human beings and then we have a bunch of things that we do know right okay so we know that here's a group of people that died well what do they have in common well the vast majority of them have comorbidities the vast majority of them are either really old or obese or are very ill very very ill so we have what was the the actual number of people that died of covid I think 99.7 survived right right so it's uh 0.03 of the people that got Co is it something like that man I you have to take into account you also have to take into account uh how many people were put on ventilators who wound up dying uh which we now know was a terrible idea 80% of the people they put on ventil ventilators died we know uh REM Desir had terrible consequences we know there's a bunch of things that people are connecting to the vaccine that no one is admitting you know and that it co hospitals and especially employers are very reluctant to say that these mandated vaccinations cause these serious health consequences that we know are real and then we have this mysterious uptick of all cause mortality that everyone wants to conveniently ignore and no one wants to make some sort of correlation or causation so do we really know that it it prevented death that that is a good question Jo I'm not a I'm not a I'm not a covid vaccine expert but I mean even like saying that in front of Bill Nye the Science Guy like he's saying it it prevented hospitalization and death by what measurement like how can someone so confidently say that when we know there's so much wrong with the vaccine when we know that it didn't stop transmission and then we found out it wasn't even tested to stop transmission that was all a lie right and the fact that they gave it to so many pregnant women with no tests on pregnant women there's so much about it where people want to say this one thing because they think it will keep them from getting in trouble and that thing that keeps you from getting in trouble the vaccine was good because it prevented hospitalizations and deaths I'm like how have you shown that like how do you show that you know I'm going to I'm going to go back and look at it I'll talk my I'm with I'm working with a new colleague who's an who's amazing expert on the Co stuff but yeah it's not my area I mean look I think obviously they sold it to us as though it was the polio vaccine and it was more like the at best it was more like the it more like a flu vaccine it was a magic cure right it's not even like the polio vaccine cuz if you look at polio have you ever seen the curve of when the polio vaccine actually comes in no okay I'll send this to Jamie because it's quite fascinating most people are under the impression that the polio vaccine stopped polio and it's tracks but the reality is polio cases had radically declined before the polio vaccine came along it's weird when you you you find out I mean that's the problem with these goddamn rabbit holes I'll send this to you Jamie and this is a bunch of different vaccines that we associate with stopping particular diseases and what probably actually happened was there was some sort of hurt immunity and is also the Advent of Sanitation you know in people in inner cities are using outdoor out houses there's the stopping the use of DDT there's a bunch of different factors that seem to play in that but look at where the polio vaccine comes along yeah that's amazing wow kind of crazy yeah kind of crazy totally different than the story we're told yeah you know another crazy statistic about polio what's that what percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic God great question I I'm assuming high right a lot take a guess 50% 9 99 wow 95 to 99 depending on who you ask and the majority of polio cases today are vaccine derived polio so there's a particular strain of vaccine that causes people to get polio and there's a particular strain of polio rather that comes from that vaccine so what's your where are you at what's your bottom line on vaccines right now like where do you I am not a vaccine expert but I am a person that has been lied to for four years and so blatantly and so obviously when you look at fouchy talking to to ran Paul and just lying openly about whether or not they funded gain of function research the fact that he got away with all that the fact that the White House tells you for the unvaccinated you're looking in a winter of severe illness and death just scaring the [ __ ] out of people and it seems to me they were doing that to maximize profits because they wanted to keep selling these things and a lot of people got extremely rich many billionaires were created because of the the pandemic because of the covid vaccine it's all very spooky to me because I think there's a long history in this country of people doing things for money knowing that people are going to suffer because of it and it's just sort of a human thing if you can get away with it if it is legal and you have the protection in place and you know that you're going to profit largely from this you do it this is also it's also in the United States is worse because I mean Europe did not require the vaccine for in fact I believe in they pulled out a lot quicker than we did too I mean they not required for children in particular right like I I just interviewed uh Tracy hog and she was saying that she she spends a lot of time in Denmar and Denmark said don't give your kids the vaccine and we said do and clearly well that's the difference between socialized medicine right I mean we're seeing it on the on the on the trans medicine as well the Europeans because it's centralized socialized medicine when they when Europe say when Britain says you should not give kids puberty blockers they block they they end puberty blockers across all of Britain right they did it first in the NHS hospitals which is the socialized medicine and then they did it for the whole country right and the conservatives did it right before leaving office and labor comes in they go we're upholding it so what is the debate with Bill Nye the Science Guy what was his position well in that case it was just more like they were I mean it was like kind of a collective gaslighting where everybody has now I mean I think it's unconscious by the way I don't think they're deliberately doing it so maybe gas is not fair agree they go right from like they just have forgotten it's like it's like retconning you know the the narrative so they just kind of go no no it's it's about reducing hospitalizations and death it's like but that's not the way you sold it to us so can we just take a beat and acknowledge that you've changed your justification for the vaccine which means that it's motivated cognition it's not like you're like reconsidering vaccines now that they because what you should do is go okay the vaccines didn't do what they said they were going to do they didn't stop infection or transmission now maybe there's another reason we want them and we should consider it but you should take a beat and pause before you just sort of rush ahead to being to justifying uh vaccines for some other reason right and what was his position just I mean the most you know Peter it's just the same as Peter hotz and all of these guys it's very authoritarian I mean it's very like I mean what he call science is not act what what fouchy and hotz and Bill NY call science is not actually science because science is a process the way they talk about it is more like a Doctrine yeah exactly or a dict and a dictatorship where it's like science is done by scien well actually science can be done by anybody it's like journalism like you don't like you don't need a PhD to science like like science is something that you do it's also not the same I mean you some sometimes you have experiments on Labs but science in the world of ecological biology is just going out there and Counting the number of gorillas or whales so this you know so they when they say science they they really mean like obey me that's what they mean and it's people that are connected to institutions all of them very powerful ones right so you're connected to uh educational institutions you're connected to um these pharmaceutical Industries these various institutions that are funding media so they have enormous influence and power over narratives and then you have people like Bill NY who's not even a scientist no I know he's an engineer which is really wild right like a guy who's not a scientist is the science guy and this is the guy that is uh a spokesperson I find spokes people for science that are arrogant very strange it's a very strange thing because science is a SC there's a scientific method and that's what science is science is applying the scient method to and data and and trying to find out the truth based on what we know it's not trust the experts no especially when the experts are severely compromised it's the opposite of that because remember it comes out it's science comes out of of Christianity it comes out of the this desire to understand God's creation and then over time the church gives more and more freedom to these scientists to study things that end up being quite inconvenient like the Earth revolves around the Sun or there's this you know there's Evolution or all these different things that scientists discover it's the opposite of Doctrine they're discovering things that are counter doctrinaire right so it's becoming it's I mean this is where you know you get to this science is basically people are trying to make it take the place of a religion they're trying to turn it into an authority and of course it can't do that because science is just supposed to tell you how things are it's not supposed to tell you what you should do that's the realm of ethics and politics didn't the concept of it come to dayart in a dream of of sence yeah I believe so definitely the idea see if you can find how he figured out where where he initially came up with the concept of science but it was uh understanding understanding nature through through measurement I forget exactly how how he came up with it but I'm 99% sure it came to him in a dream that I believe it was a an angel that brought him this information in a dream I mean all these early scientists including Newton I don't know that's right French philosopher mathematician believed that he had three dreams in November 10th 1619 that revealed the basis for the scientific method and his philosophical methods he was possessed by a genius who revealed answers in a dazzling light he went to bed exhausted and dreamed three dreams he envisioned reforming all knowledge understanding the nature of existence and how to be certain of that knowledge decart's dreams are considered a philosop philosopher's dream and are considered to be authentic his interpretations of the dream dreams are supported by biographical material neuroscientific Theory and psychoanalytic theory decart's dream is also the subject of the world according to mathematics a series of essays that examines the influence of mathematics on society the essays consider how mathematics can be applied to civilization how these applications could be beneficial dangerous or irrelevant so it came to him in a dream the idea of it initially it's very interesting right that human beings live for so long uh before the scientific method came along and now it has become this weird thing that's been captured by people are so-called experts the spokes people for the science which is always dangerous when you have an enormous group of of intelligent people which the United States is you the United States is 330 million people some of them have degrees some of them are just brilliant people that have spent a lot of time studying things and there's a lot of them there's a lot of people so when you have all these people debating things you want to maintain control and push a narrative that [ __ ] gets very messy and the best way to handle that is to have certain people be the stern purveyors of the science that's it when you criticize Anthony fouchy you're criticizing science right everybody said that it's incredible that was a wild thing to say but it's so transparent because it shows how they really think that you are you are and it's scolding you are not supposed to it's the same thing that happened when Mar Martin Luther translated the Bible into phonetic languages because no one could speak Latin no one had to read Latin it was poor they were poor people but when he translated into German and all these different languages people could read and said hey this is up to you to interpret what God Said the church was like Hey [ __ ] face you're cutting in on our racket like we need people that are the spokespersons for God the one the the people that are going to tell you what God meant you don't get to decide what God meant that [ __ ] dude is dressed like a wizard he gets to decide so they you know they're wearing these crazy costumes that regular people don't get to wear which makes you think well he's got the wacky costume and the Fish Head hat he must know more than me which is a weird play on authoritarianism it's it's a weird it's it's very strange thing that people accept when people have costumes on like if cops were wearing like Nirvana t-shirts and board shorts you'd be like hey [ __ ] you man you're just a regular dude right you know but like you are going 55 and a 50 you know and he's wearing an uniform like damn I'm getting in trouble with a uniform person this is real no they've they've proven it like they actually do studies where they if you put somebody in a white scientist's code or white doctor's code or put a stethoscope on them people trust them more sure it's just automatic it's incredible it's so deep I do yeah I mean why not they're scientists they've got a thescope they know how what my heartbeat permitted is so the most unscientific thing is when people say things like the science is telling us to to do this no no no no no no science doesn't tell us to do anything it's describing reality you can make predictions right of what would happen if you do different things but that's not science telling us what to do science can't do that and so especially when you stifle debate yeah if you're stifling debate you're stifling science you are anti-science if you are anti- debating about science that's right or the at least the data it's very similar to free speech in that same way if you're just offending the speech that you agree with then not actually defending Free Speech the the test of whether or not you're defending Free Speech same as the test of you're defending science is that bring it on well as soon as you're as soon as you're censoring people like Jay bataria and you know Peter Mulla and you know Robert Malone as soon as you're doing that like okay how is what do you these people are Rock Solid credentialed Physicians these these are like Peter Peter Mulla has the most scientific papers published in his field in human history like this is a legitimate scientist SL doctor and he's telling you he's telling you he's at the he's using the actual methods that you're telling people trust the science he's actually doing it and he's got a whole list of credentials to his name he's a very accomplished person in this field and yet they're censoring him because what he was saying was going against narratives which is so you're stifling debate which is everyone knows is the wrong way to do it even if he's wrong the correct thing to do is to get him publicly to talk to someone who is right and have the world see how this person who is right is going to correct him on the errors of his analysis and then we all learn but instead what do they do they try to get them booted off of social media which is very sketchy Behavior we don't like that flag well what Francis said we need to do a devastating takedown of these ringe epidemiologists referring to the barington Declaration that bataria and the two other and um kof and then uh um I can't Citra Gupta from Oxford I think it's the third but yeah I mean but but I mean even a more dramatic example is like you know a lot of the people that did the early pioneering work showing that Co escaped from a lab were like Anonymous people on the internet Anonymous loose that is legitimate I mean that the idea like credentialism credentialism is the enemy of science the idea that you need to have some some established credentials in part because the system reproduces its own ideology professors give they hire people and give tenure and give phds to people who agree with them that's how they feel like their legacy will continue they don't normally promote people uh younger generation if they have radical disagreements for them so they're necessarily going to come outside of the establishment right it's it's sort of like every other institution where people want to get ahead you have to play the rules yeah you have to play the game by the rules that's established by the people that are controlling the game yeah it's conformism it's just bizarre when that happens with Science and Mathematics and with all these different things that we thought of as these hard Sciences like it's information based datab based and it's even more dangerous when it's in the health and medical context I'll give you another example I mean American Academy of Pediatrics my friend Marty mcari just came out with this amazing book called blind spot yeah blind spots um where he looks at American Academy Pediatrics look at what they did they recommended uh letting babies sleep on their stomachs that resulted in the sudden infant death syndrome and babies like many babies died from that suffocated right suffocated they recommended not giving children peanuts and they created the peanut allergy epidemic they um and now they're now they're recommending transgender medicine in all three cases there was never any science to support any of those positions and it's bizarre because I was I mean when you read this book or you kind of look into it you're like what was going on was there some special interest or whatever it was just like ego and also in it was a desire many cases a desire to to have answers to problems that they should never have given answers to peenut allergies for example there were a few tiny number of people that tiny number of kids who had P allergies um but they came to AAP and they said what should we do about it a goes well it's better just to be safe than sorry to to to recommend that parents don't give their kids peanuts they ended up creating the peanut allergy epidemic they ended up making and it's incredible story because you know the other theory of why there's so many peanut allergies and so many allergies in general no I don't know if this is true obviously I'm not an expert in any of these things that I'm talking about but the theory is that when you're vaccinating children and you're using aluminum which is so you have the inert virus you have the dead virus and you have this agitator this thing that causes people to have this reaction and then they find the inert virus they develop antibodies for it that's how vaccines work right but that aluminum causes severe allergic reactions and can cause you to become allergic to various things including peanuts this is I'm butchering this for sure but Brett Weinstein has made this this argument and uh he believes that's possibly why he has a severe wheat out could be I mean in this case they had a pretty good study comparing American kids to Israeli kids and the Israeli kids had peanuts at Young ages and they didn't have these allergies now I don't know I don't know I don't have to check they were very vaccinated for Co I mean it was an interesting way Israelis were interesting yeah I believe they mandated it I mean what's so amazing about that assuming that Marty's account is correct what's incredible about that story is that you had so first of all something like like over 14 years went by before they did a study showing that depriving the kids of penuts at a young age was creating the allergies but everybody every there's a whole field called immunology and there's all these immunologists who were watching this happen and they would know from their basic Theory which has been around for thousands of years that you would end up creating allergies right by not having that early exposure so one of the crazy so you're always like I have this is I like another case of this is like we're we're working on I'm working on this study of like the last Harvard president who came to power cloudine gay who ended up leaving she was not a great scholar you know she was actually in trouble for plagiarism that was that was why she ended up having to leave but you know one of that was obviously after those hearings it was after those hearings and then said crazy things about someone commissioned the plagiarism to go after her because of that but what's amazing when you look at it uh you know Chris rufo surfaced this glossery this Dei glossery div Equity inclusion glossery that was all these words that you were supposed to use you basically woke language you're supposed to use and she was she was the Dei going around and making the professors and the faculty all use this language I mean it's orwellian how is it that like these power you're a Harvard Professor you're like this accomplished person you've achieved a lot I mean maybe you're you know maybe you're actually part of the prom in some ways but how is it that you would just some faculty member gives you a list of a glossery and you just go oh okay I'm going to use your words it's like something's going on in these institutions where people are bullied into things that they know are wrong you know and so it's it's a failure it's not just an intellectual failure it's like a failure of Courage as well so that you just end up going along with I don't want to be the guy that is accused of being a racist I don't want to be the person accused of of causing childhood peenut allergies even though that's thing miss out on tenure you don't want to miss out on tenure there's all these things going for you but it's it's classic Emperor's New Clothes where like kind of everybody in the room is like this glossery is racist and insane or telling parents not to give kids peanuts is insane because we've never had more allergies since we started Banning this how did it go on so long I think that's one of the things that you know that that is one of the remedies I think of the of of the internet age and having these alternative media that is a remedy to basically have people calling [ __ ] on it from outside those institutions because I mean this is American Academy Peach if you're just an ordinary new parent and you're you know oh the other one by the way is infant formula recommending seed-based AAP recommended seed-based infant formulas which were terrible for kids and of course we know that breast milk is superior for all these reasons and the antibodies and creating the immune system response so I mean here you have the major organization recommending how to take care of kids with not one but four separate Health scandals that it helped to to create why should that organization even exist anymore right you know um and that's just like literally one of the institutions but if you kind of just go down you know Harvard New York Times you know American Medical Association and you know how about covid I mean most Americans agree now that covid was invented in a lab in China escaped from the lab so you have another case where the the the these institutions are actually creating the problems they claim to be solving you sound anti-science to me I don't like how if that's what it is sign me up I mean this is actually the subject you last time I was here you asked me if if what the new book was and this is what it is pathocracy is the new book why Elites subvert civilization and that's the big question is how is it like that the institutions and we're taking this concept of iatrogenesis where the classic example is you go to the hospital for some ailment and you end up getting an inection and die that's considered that when the healthc care system creates sickness taking that and looking at a whole bunch of other institutions why you know when the news media demand censorship and create propaganda the FBI creating crimes and entrapment potentially you know you know with with informance and others um you know how is why what's happening in these institutions that they end up creating the problems that they're trying to solve or that they're claiming to solve it the crazy thing is it seems to be an emergent Behavior pattern when people get into power when when people have power they always go in this very particular direction of control yeah and this was what the founding fathers of the Constitution the people that F founded this country when they were laying it out they were trying to prevent that from taking place and they had this very elaborate plan to sort of subvert normal human behavior to stop it from taking root in this country and to make this a a better experiment in self self-government than what they'd experienced under dictatorships and people always want to get it back to where they're comfortable which is being a dictator yeah I mean absolutely I mean it's such a brilliant system and I mean there's this famous I can't remember if it was Jefferson or somebody who one of the found fathers that was like we need a revolution every you know 50 years or something that's clearly we're overripe for massive reform and we in 1975 we had the church committee hearings which is where we found out about the CIA assassinations and MK Ultra and the you know the poisons and all the stuff that the CIA was doing we're clearly over overdue for it I mean it's been 50 years can you imagine what they're doing now H we see some of it well this uh the guy who tried to shoot Trump the guy they shot on the roof like what was what was the deal with that and why haven't we why do we not where's the information where's the press conference I mean where's his emails where's the you where's the social media posts his his apartment was professionally scrubbed oh unbelievable you know his home was professionally scrubbed they didn't even find silverware in it how about this the second guy yeah the second guy that was recruiting people to go fight in Ukraine well he sounds like a fullon loon you know and I think when you're if I was an intelligence agent uh and I was trying to do this kind of stuff I would find people already out of their [ __ ] minds right I'd reach out to them I was going to say being a loon doesn't seem to be disqualifying to be recruited into into intelligence well it seems to be a very valuable asset you know like that's what Lee Harvey Oswald was he was a [ __ ] loon and they probably recruited him and knew all along that he was the guy they were going to pin it on right and this kid is probably a very similar case the kid that shot Trump and when you find out that this kid was in a Blackwater commercial just two years before like what like who's he in contact with like what was it blackwat or Black Rock Oh Black Rock sorry Black Rock yeah just protecting you from your future lawsuits I always [ __ ] those up it's a black rock commercial I've said it right and wrong both time like many times no I mean I it's it's amazing these things I mean or even the remember the the trans shooter we didn't get her diary well it's it was very it was rough like some of it is leaked and I I guess it was probably people trying to discourage hate against trans people but the reality is the majority of the last few School shooters have been trans this is also something that's conveniently left out of the discussion and that's not even the real problem it's not like trans people are violent the real problem is psychiatric drugs and that's the thing that no one wants to make a connection with how many of these Mass Shooters are on psychiatric drugs and the the answer is the majority of them well they say that but of course I did a I reported on the guy that attacked uh Paul Pelosi Nancy Pelosi's husband with a hammer right and I mean he first of all I reported out that you know you go to his house and he was homeless and he was he was a drug addict and he had mental illness and you go to his home in Berkeley and it was a black lives matter sign and a rainbow flag and all that um but the media all reported it that he was a right-wing Trump supporter like that was so they were very I didn't hear that at all oh yeah really that's hilarious yeah um but but in that case they didn't they didn't hesitate to release that that information that he had been posting about q andon and criticizing the Democrats and whatnot so it's clearly ideologically selective of who which which as salance in political information gets released well and then unfortunately there was a bunch of conspiracy theories that he was his lover and he was in the house and but if you see the guy while he's talking to the cops and holding the hammer and Paul Pelosi is trying to hold on to the Hammer the whole thing is mad like why is Paul Pelosi still have a drink in his hand like dude you're in a mortal struggle with a man who has a [ __ ] hammer in his hand and you're you're holding the Hammer with one hand cuz you want to keep your drink I couldn't figure out why the cops didn't just just go grab the hammer in that moment they sat there and waited and I don't think they knew exactly what was going on you know it was very weird looking it was very strange like it didn't seem like Paul Pelosi was he wasn't screaming or in danger he seemed very calm he was probably trying to slow this guy down and relax him and calm him down while the the cops were arriving and just didn't ever feel like he was going to get hit in the head with a hammer which is what wound up happening it's the video is so disturbing but if you look at the man in the video he's clear out of his [ __ ] mind right you know there's something wrong with that guy like you could tell right away like here it is oh it's so disturbing it's so strange why isn't why but I don't quite understand why the cops don't rush in at that point right um why is Paul holding on to his drink why this guy's got a [ __ ] hammer in his hand yeah the guy's got two hands on it maybe maybe maybe there's not as much time that goes by as I thought that's what like that seems like they're struggling the cops should have rushed in then right that's awful oh my God yeah oh my God this is so horrible that video is so horrible when you hear him snoring and also he's an 80-year-old man okay for an 80-year-old man to get knocked unconscious in the head with a hammer like that he's not going to ever be the same again yeah you know that is that's bad for a 20-year-old person to get hit in the head with a hammer it's awful for an old guy like that to get koed like that with a [ __ ] Hammer where he's snoring in the I mean I think the pro both sides both left and right often attribute political motivations to mentally ill people who if you go through like if you go through that guy's uh David top I think was his name if you go through if you go through the stuff that he was posting it's just a mix of crazy Left Right Stuff he was clearly mentally ill yeah yeah um and but clearly mentally ill by the way people they will adopt whatever ideology is is the most persuasive like they don't really they're not objectively thinking about things he's out of his [ __ ] mind well we don't blame John Hinckley Jun we don't blame uh um jod Foster for for John hinley Junior's assassination of Reagan you don't go if it weren't for Jodie Foster he was a jod foster fan yeah that's why it's on her yeah nobody says that yeah so he's a crazy person I mean look we're in this I mean look we're in a mental I mean we've been in our country is just in a bad way in terms of mental health right we're just not taking care of it I mean no no country in I mean we have people we have a lot of guns and then you have no proper psychiatric or mental health care system which is crazy because now you have tella health and you know you you we should have a bunch of ways to deal with it but it's just not who we are I guess well it's also it's very difficult to get people to seek treatment yeah and you know and then also the treatment especially in terms of things like ssris they have to try a bunch of things on you it's not as simple everybody has a different level of mental illness right and so there there's also different causes of this mental illness and there's different medications that work right and they don't really know until they try it on you and then then we find out now that the entire theory that it's based on which is that there is some sort of chemical imbalance is incorrect it's not true so then okay we have to take this holistic view of the body and the mind and the health of the individual based on lifestyle and choices and community and friends and all these different things that we don't want to take into consideration instead they're just giving people pills and they give people pills and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes it causes a dissociation effect these the dissociatives these weird drugs that people take where they don't even exactly know what the [ __ ] they're doing while they're doing it well and some I mean I think also I mean yeah 100% And you know we also unlike Europe and whatever we don't we don't allow we don't coerce we don't mandate antis psychotics to people with schizophrenia or those kinds of treatments we're much more libertarian than that right you know I mean I want this guy particularly the Pelosi guy I actually my I I can't prove it but my theory would be that he that there may not have been an unline mental illness he had a rough life he did a huge quantity of drugs you know there's just a set of people as we've known from LSD over the decades there's some people that take LSD we're now seeing it with Mar with the high potency marijuana they never come back that trigger psychosis yeah and it's probably they already have a propensity for it the the thought is that I forget what percentage of the population I think it's 1% as a tendency towards schizophrenia or will eventually become schizophrenic and then you take that 1% that's a lot of people man oh for sure one out of 100 you take one out of 100 you give them a giant dose of edible marijuana and they're gone well this is the this is a uh Mark andrion who you had on was was making this point about iasa which is very fashionable among the elite set and I think the point that that resonates with me is you know when I was working in San Francisco after the Summer of Love 1967 when all the every shows up in