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Joshua Ritter and Greg Hartley Analyze Lance Twiggs' Body Language in the Tyler Robinson Murder Case
Joshua Ritter sits down with body language expert Greg Hartley to examine the interview of Lance Twiggs, the key witness in the Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing for the murder of Charlie Kirk. Hartley, a former US Army interrogator and member of The Behavior Panel, breaks down Twiggs' subtle cues, eye movements, and verbal patterns to reveal what the witness may have been communicating beyond his words. From baseline behavior to critical deviations during questioning about September 11th and Charlie Kirk discussions, this analysis uncovers the hidden layers of testimony that could prove pivotal at trial. Ritter and Hartley also discuss the Caleb Flynn case, where a former American Idol contestant faces murder charges for allegedly killing his wife, and examine the controversial 911 call that raised investigators' suspicions.
Breaking Down the Lance Twiggs Interview
Joshua Ritter, former prosecutor with the LA District Attorney's Office, welcomed body language expert Greg Hartley to examine the centerpiece of evidence from the Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing: the recorded interview of Lance Twiggs, Robinson's roommate and romantic partner. The interview, conducted remotely with Twiggs appearing alongside his attorneys, lasted approximately 40 minutes, with only 20 minutes shown in court after redactions.
Hartley's first impression was striking. "This guy looks like he's either medicated or something going on because he's not moving," Hartley observed. "He's not moving. Which is usually a good indicator something's going on in his head, some stress." The expert emphasized that establishing a baseline is fundamental to body language analysis, noting that Twiggs maintained remarkable consistency throughout most of the interview, dressed in a suit and tie, sitting square and nearly motionless.
"When we look at body language, there's no magic. This is the most mundane and boring chore you'll ever do in your life, because it's repetition, repetition, repetition," Hartley explained. "You look for change. And what we're looking for is the person's mouth, their brain, and their body to all say the same thing."
The Compounding Pressure of Testimony
Ritter pointed out that Twiggs was testifying under a grant of immunity, meaning his participation was compelled. "He doesn't want to do this, right? He doesn't want anything to do with any of this, but they're telling him, 'Yeah, you've got a Fifth Amendment right. We're giving you immunity, and you're going to have to sit down and talk with us, or things could get very hairy for you very quickly.'"
Hartley acknowledged the immense pressure: "The tape playing in the background is, 'Don't screw this up and go to jail.' That's the tape playing. It would be for me, and I'm 65, you know, 64. So, if you're 24, think about how powerful that is."
The expert explained the physiological responses to such stress: "When we were young, we used to say two things. Fight or flight is when we define the sympathetic nervous system kicks in and dumps all these hormones in your system to get you out of trouble, whether it's verbally or physically or whatever. But then the parasympathetic breaks that and slows you down. There are four responses that we typically think of. We used to say fight or flight, now we say fight, flight, freeze, or fawn."
The September 11th Conversation: A Critical Deviation
Hartley identified two major anomalies in Twiggs' otherwise consistent baseline behavior. The first occurred when discussing the conversation with Robinson the day after the murder. When asked if Robinson talked about what he had done, Twiggs responded: "Didn't go into detail. He just I just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before, and he said it was. He started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it. And then kept going around and just doing stuff, I think, to keep himself busy or distracted or something."
Hartley's analysis was revealing: "If you go back and you were to watch when they're asking him factual questions we know the answers to, you'll watch as he's recalling information about visual things, his eyes go up and to his left. I'm going to talk to you about eye movement because it's the most under utilized and most over demonized thing there is because people don't know what the hell they're doing."
During this particular response, Hartley noted significant changes: "When he's talking about the day before, when Tyler left on the 10th, he is rifling through his visual memory for what time of the day it was. His eyes go to places for information. Now, he's asking him a question, his eyes drop. They drop down into this emotional state, down into your rights where people go when they're thinking of emotion."
The expert continued: "He's pretty fluid in his speech patterns. We don't hear a lot of cadence halting. But when we ask these questions, he starts to halt. His cadence starts uh uh and he says um for the first time. He's in those internal voice and those things. It makes him look like he's not sure what to say, where to say it, and how to be careful."
Time Hiding and Missing Details
Ritter observed that Twiggs' response seemed minimized from the start: "His first words out of his mouth were he didn't go into detail. Like he already is setting up the I'm not going to give you much out of this."
Hartley agreed, pointing to a common deception technique: "I think anytime you get a guy here and you can see he's answering there's no narrative. Part of what your job is preparing this guy for is not to give a narrative, right? Answer the questions. Don't give a narrative. And he's avoiding narrative at all costs."
The expert identified what he called "time hiding": "When he says, 'I said bye to him and then he drove off.' And then he drove off. That's a time hiding spot. When I said bye to him, there's probably a lot of squabbling, a lot of fighting and arguing. Might even be some physical fighting going on. There's a lot of emotion that is not talked about here."
Hartley emphasized the significance of these verbal bridges: "They use 'and then' and they're out of it. That's the way people hide time, the way they hide information. And the good interrogator, good investigator, good attorney is going to say, 'Hold on. That and then, let's talk about that.'"
The Charlie Kirk Question: The Biggest Red Flag
The second major anomaly occurred when Twiggs was asked about political discussions and specifically about Charlie Kirk. When asked if they ever talked about politics, Twiggs responded: "He did more than we. I didn't really still don't really keep up with politics very much. He usually talked about stuff he heard on the radio on his drive to work in like their work cars."
When directly asked about Charlie Kirk, Twiggs stated: "I personally have never heard him talk about Charlie Kirk before specifically."
Hartley's analysis was damning: "When he gets asked about Charlie Kirk, watch his eyes go down into that emotional and internal voice. More importantly, watch that jaw move. Lip compression is withheld information. When a person does this, think of Anthony Weiner, Bill Clinton, every guy who's ever been in real trouble. It's contained emotion or contained information immediately after Kirk. It would not matter, but it's an orphan in the entire video. It's the only time we see him do it."
The expert continued: "Then, he withdraws his lips in his mouth. We typically associate that with needing some kind of support or belief or that kind of thing. There's two others. When he's asked about did you talk about, he does a pronoun shift. He goes to the other guy very quickly. He didn't say, 'No, we didn't talk.' He and he qualified by saying, 'Not really.' So, there's a lot of distancing from the facts."
Pronoun Analysis and Distancing Language
Ritter picked up on subtle linguistic patterns: "I noticed he's being asked did Robinson ever talk about politics? Did Robinson ever talk about Charlie Kirk? He's asking, 'What is Tyler doing?' But his answers immediately start to describe his own involvement first. Like his first thing is he did more than me. Did he ever talk about politics? He did more than me. It wasn't a topic I contributed to much. I personally never heard him talk about Charlie Kirk. It's like the question called for Tyler Robinson, but the answer gave Lance Twiggs."
Hartley noted an additional distancing technique: "With one exception, when they asked him, 'Did you talk about this?' Meaning collectively, he said, 'He.' Boom, he pushed it right back off. So, he's I call that, you know, if you think about burlesque in the old days where they would use these fans to cover I always call that fan dancing. They're covering up things and making you think there's something to see."
The body language expert concluded: "If I were interrogating somebody in the same situation, I would brush aside all the rest of stuff and I'd focus on two areas. The one is the night when he came home and they talked about this because there's a boatload of details buried in that, guaranteed. And then this one about their political discussions, I would tear them apart about that because this one has more evasive body language than anything else we saw."
The Dremel Tool Discussion
Another area of questionable credibility emerged when Twiggs discussed the Dremel tool used to engrave the bullets. Twiggs claimed Robinson asked for it about a month before the shooting, saying it was to inscribe bullets, and that his family was going on a hunting trip.
Hartley observed: "They talked about the Dremel twice in a 20-minute interview, which is a little interesting, which means it's an important part of the case, I would imagine. His blink rate does increase a bit when they start talking about the Dremel. Remember we talked about stress causing blink rate increases often. So we look for that and then when he's done saying, 'Yeah, I told him where it was at,' we see him emotionally eye access down to the right again. There's feelings in this guy."
The expert questioned the lack of follow-up: "What are you hunting that you need to write on bullets? That's would be my next question. I'd ask a ton of questions around that."
Implications for Trial Testimony
Both Ritter and Hartley expressed concerns about how Twiggs might perform under cross-examination at trial. Ritter noted: "I do believe they're probably going very light on him. They're going to put him on as a witness. Should they be concerned how he responds to the defense?"
Hartley responded: "If you've got a good enough attorney to go hammer him and really follow up and get all the details, yeah, you should be concerned because the problem is when they get down to the mechanics of this and they start attacking him, I don't know he's going to stand up to that as well as he stood up to this guy. So, some preparation, for sure, is necessary for him to be able to stand up to that cross-examination."
The expert noted a research-based concern: "Studies show that when a person's being honest, they move their hands as they talk. They use the illustrator body. There's a guy named Aldert Vrij out of the UK who did study that showed significant correlation between movement and speaking and truthfulness. And there's no indicator of a lie, but there's plenty of indicators that something's not right."
Tyler Robinson's Courtroom Behavior
Ritter shared observations from courtroom attendees about Robinson's demeanor during the preliminary hearing: "Two points where he started to kind of seem like he was struggling. One was in the discussion of the bullets and the etchings that were put on the bullets. And the other was when in the discussion about the rifle being his grandfather's rifle."
Hartley explained the significance: "When people press their face, that's stress relief. There's nerves in your face that relax when you press and that kind of thing. So, what we're looking for when a person gets agitated is release of nervous energy. That ties it pretty tightly to you. And when I watch him talk about using a Dremel tool to engrave bullets, well, that ties it pretty tightly to you. So, that might be two of the most damning things anybody could prove."
The Caleb Flynn Case: A Suspicious 911 Call
Shifting focus, Ritter discussed another case gaining attention: Caleb Flynn, a former American Idol contestant and worship pastor accused of shooting his wife Ashley Flynn on February 16, 2026, just two days after Valentine's Day.
The 911 call raised immediate red flags. Flynn reported: "Oh my god. Somebody broke into my home. They shot my wife... My wife is she's got two shots to her head."
Ritter questioned this detail: "That's the part that a lot of people have pointed towards. She's got two shots to her head. How in the panic of this moment doesn't know if the man is still in the home, doesn't know if his children could be in danger by the way, he's got two daughters ages 9 and 12 at the time doesn't know where they're at, doesn't know how he got into the home. All of this chaos going around this man's life in this moment. And he had the wherewithal to inspect her head. To go, she's got two bullet holes to the head."
Hartley, still monitoring the show, sent a message through production: "If someone is telling a story, they're creating an alibi."
The Battle Over Child Witnesses
A significant pretrial issue emerged in the Flynn case regarding the testimony of his two young daughters, who were allegedly asleep during the murder. Prosecutors requested protective measures including a screen to prevent the children from seeing the defendant, the public, or both during testimony.
The defense objected, citing constitutional confrontation rights. Judge Janine Pratt sided with the defense, ruling: "There has been no showing that testifying in the presence of the defendant would cause trauma, impair the child's ability to communicate, or otherwise justify deviation from standard confrontation procedures. The absence of any evidentiary basis for such findings is fatal to the state's motion."
Ritter interpreted the ruling: "I think the judge is saying here, 'You didn't put it on the record.' Prosecutors, you can't just say we want this because we think it would be great. You have to say, 'They've spoken to psychologists and the therapists say that these children in particular are very triggered by the discussion of their father, being in the same room as their father, seeing their father, discussing the events of that evening.' You got to put something in front of the judge. Otherwise, you're making the judge make a call. And by the way, this would be some sort of restriction of his right to confront witnesses against him. It's a constitutional right. That could create an appealable issue."
The Flynn trial is scheduled to begin September 17, 2026, representing a remarkably fast timeline from the February murder to trial just seven months compared to the Tyler Robinson case, which took ten months just to reach the preliminary hearing stage.
Looking Ahead to the Robinson Trial
Hartley emphasized the importance of establishing baseline behavior: "Baseline is everything. You got to start with a baseline. And what I always say is it's not baseline of you sitting at home eating Cheetos on the couch. It's the baseline for the situation you're in and then we look for deviation."
Regarding Twiggs' potential trial testimony, Hartley warned: "The problem is I think you said it earlier, they're going to rely on a lot of evidence that he can prove things like off of his cell phone. But when they get down to those facts, when they get down to the mechanics of this and they start attacking him, you're going to start to see leakage. He's contained. He's got good attorneys who are going to tell him to sit there and hold his hands and everything in place. But the problem is studies show that when a person's being honest, they move their hands as they talk."
The expert concluded with a warning for cross-examination: "I always say I made a living out of finding nice little cracks in a pearl and breaking it open. You've got to be aggressive or the other analogy I would use is like taking an ice pick to a guy in armor looking for a hole. Once you find it, it's ugly. And that's what you find with people often."
Video Transcript
[music]
>> Last week the state of Utah presented a
snapshot of the evidence they believe
holds Tyler Robinson responsible for the
murder of Charlie Kirk. Amongst the DNA,
surveillance video, and ballistics
reports, the star witness was Lance
Twiggs. Tonight we sit down with body
language expert Greg Hartley to break
down the interview of Robinson's
roommate and romantic partner to see
what he was telling us beyond the words
he said. All this and more on Courtroom
Confidential.
Good evening and welcome everybody. It
is Monday, July 13th, 2026 and this is
your Monday night special from Courtroom
Confidential, the fastest growing true
crime news channel on YouTube. Thank you
so much everybody for being here. I see
Shy Gao and Tracy, Needham, and Melanie
Lewis, Therapist You Know, Court
Watcher, Venetia. So happy to have so
many of you here and joining us this
evening. It's going to be a good one
because um
we've got a very special guest for you
that I'm very excited to uh break down
some uh evidence that we saw over the
last week, but hopefully through a new
lens and in a way that you haven't seen
it before. So,
um let me introduce myself to everybody
who might be new here. I know we do pick
up a few followers over the last week.
So, if you're here for the first time on
a Monday night special, welcome. My name
is Joshua Ritter. I'm a former
prosecutor with the LA District
Attorney's Office. I was there for just
about 10 years or so before I left to go
into private practice as a criminal
defense attorney. And this is Courtroom
Confidential where we do our best to
bring you both sides of the courtroom.
And this is a show that we do every
Monday evening called our Monday night
special. It's a look ahead at the week
in true crime. Tonight, we are taking a
look back actually at the Tyler Robinson
preliminary hearing that just took place
over the last of the the the course of
the last 5 days in Provo, Utah. Uh the
star of the show, the centerpiece of the
prosecution's entire entire case was
Lance Twiggs and his
his testimony was presented through an
interview that was played in court.
There was a lot of litigation whether or
not we were even going to see it, but we
did. And because of that, we decided it
might be a good idea to sit down with an
expert to tell us, "I hear what he's
saying, but what else might he be
telling us through his body language or
the words that he chooses?" So, we've
got one of the best in the entire
business, Greg Hartley from The Behavior
Panel, is here to join us. He's a former
US Army interrogator. And the question
we're going to be going through is what
was Lance Twiggs telling us?
Stay till the end though because after
we're done with our chat with uh Greg,
we're going to have a viewer's poll. So,
you I don't want you to miss out on
that. We're going to discuss some other
cases that are in the news this week,
and I've got some announcements for you.
But, you know what time it is. Please
take that deep cleansing breath. You've
made it. It's the beginning of a new
week. It's going to be a good one. Hit
that like button. Hit that subscribe
button, and share this with anyone you
feel might enjoy it. Farmgirl, thank you
so much for kicking us off this evening
with the memberships gift. Very generous
of you. All right, let's bring on Greg.
How you doing, my friend?
>> Hey, good to see you, Josh. Thanks for
bringing us
>> see you, too.
Um thank you so much for one, sharing
your time with us, and two, dealing with
the technical issues that we had going
into this whole thing. Yeah, I'm the
luddite, not you. I came in the wrong
way, so they just plugged me in. Not at
all. And I was you were saying, too, you
have to deal with this on a weekly basis
when you put on the four guys. I'm sure
that it's you know, like wrangling cats
to get everybody's technology working.
>> Well, number one, we all travel. We're
on the road all the time and doing all
kinds of things. So, getting us together
is one piece, but then the technology,
fortunately, we have a Grammy-nominated
sound engineer who runs all the sound.
That's Scott Ralph. So, it doesn't hurt.
>> [laughter]
>> That's true. That's nice to have that
guy
>> Yeah.
>> on the team as well.
>> Well, producer and sound He would kill
me for not calling him a producer.
>> Yeah, let's give him his credit, right?
We had a nice chat and if you guys
should check that out, too, because that
guy's got a background that you wouldn't
believe. It's pretty incredible. As do
you. We've sat down and interviewed all
of you and all of your partners on that
show. So, we'll we'll give links to all
those interviews in a moment. But, for
right now,
um
we're going to talk about Lance Twigg's
interview. Um it wasn't done live, so it
was recorded. We were looking at the way
I
believe it to be is I don't think they
were in the same room.
I believe they were in different
locations over Zoom or some similar
program.
Uh and he looked to be with his
attorneys at a conference room.
>> He's dressed in a suit and tie.
>> We're going to show some clips in a
moment and the
uh investigators are in another location
and it was not that long of an
interview. All together, it was short of
40 minutes.
What they showed in court was only about
20 minutes of it because they redacted
some things out, but I want to play some
clips, but before I do that, give me
kind of your first impression when you
were watching it. What were some of your
takeaways?
>> So, the first thing I I did some TV last
week and they showed a 20-second clip
and I said, "This guy looks like he's
either medicated or something going on
because he's not moving." The guy asked
me to read his body language and I said,
"What body language? He's not moving."
Which is usually a good indicator
something's going on in his head, some
stress.
And I'm going to ramble a bit tonight,
but bring you around as we get closer to
the end of this. But, when we talk about
people, you see that big jersey in the
back? That was a gift from one of my
clients who said if I learned nothing
from you, it's baseline is everything.
So, [laughter]
you got to start with a baseline. And
what I always say is it's not baseline
of you sitting at home eating Cheetos on
the couch. It's the baseline for the
situation you're in and then we look for
deviation.
And his baseline was pretty solid. I
mean, if you look through it, there's
consistency and I'll point out the two
real anomalies as we get here. But
there's pretty good consistency and you
hit it also, Josh. He's looking down at
the screen which puts him in a weird
place as well. I mean, I'm looking at
you as I talk instead of the camera half
the time cuz I want to see your face and
that happens even to us. So, imagine if
you're under stress stress and the
duress that comes with that. You hear
his voice tone is down a couple of
octaves. That's normal under stress. So,
and this is not a I What is he? 22? 24?
Something like that.
>> man.
>> I mean, that's a struggle.
And I know he has He's got to be careful
where he walks. I'm sure his his people
have prepped him to say perjury is still
a punishable offense and and and you you
all your attorneys are going to talk
about what is what his um
where he has immunity and where he
doesn't what and even his attorney or
this this guy who's deposing him or
asking doing his testimony asked the
right questions. It says, "Remember, you
have to tell me the truth or and you
this could be obstruction." So, all that
puts more pressure on the guy, but we
don't see his hands move a lot. I mean,
some people are not hand talkers.
They're
You know, the guys on the team always
say, "If I tie your hands, can't talk."
Cuz I move my hands all the time. But he
doesn't move his a lot. I'll point out
when he does and why it matters and what
it means. But the good questioning Are
there places where the the person
questioning could have done a better job
by follow-ups? But probably not
appropriate for this time. If he gets on
the stand for testimony, it'll be a
heyday because there's stuff that he
left out that they'll lean in on, I'm
sure.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad that you
pointed that out. He seemed
um
I I would describe it as calm, but maybe
that's not the right term for it because
what he was was nearly
um robotic. I mean, he really did not
move much. He sat square in his place.
He's dressed as you can see there, suit
and tie.
I wonder, too, uh
tell me if this adds to kind of your
analysis of it. It's not only that he's
been talking to his attorneys, and
they're telling him, "Hey, you can't
perjure yourself. You've got to be
honest. You're You're This is under a
grant of immunity." But, this is
compelled. In other words, he doesn't
want to do this, right? He doesn't want
anything to do with any of this, but
they're telling him, "Yeah, you've got a
Fifth Amendment right. We're giving you
immunity, and you're going to have to
sit down and talk with us, or or things
could get very hairy for you very
quickly." Is that playing into the way
he presented himself?
>> So, this is what I said, I'm going to
ramble. When we look at body language,
there's no magic. This is the most
mundane and boring chore you'll ever do
in your life, cuz it's repetition,
repetition, repetition. You look for
change. And what we're looking for is
the person's mouth, their brain, and
their body to all say the same thing. If
what your brain is thinking, your mouth
is saying,
your body will punctuate beautifully.
It's what we do. You know, our bodies
are designed to punctuate what we think.
And then, you can see the rhythm when a
person's doing that. The minute the
brain is thinking one thing, the mouth
is saying another, the body is going to
glitch. So, what we look for deviations
from the norm. We get a baseline for the
person. In this case, I would venture to
say the tape playing in the background
is, "Don't screw this up and go to
jail."
>> Yeah.
>> That's the tape playing. It would be for
me, and I'm 65, you know, 64. So, if
you're 24, think about how how powerful
that is. And especially if you've never
been in court, I mean, you Court's bread
and butter for you, but a kid who's
never been in court, it automatically
raises all of his stress. Now, there's a
couple of things. When we were When I
was young, we used to say two things.
Fight or flight is when we define the
sympathetic nervous system kicks in and
dumps all these hormones in your system
to get you out of trouble, whether it's
verbally or physically or whatever.
But, then the parasympathetic breaks
that and slows you down. So, fight or
flight jacks you up and gets you going.
There are four responses that we
typically think of. We used to say fight
or flight, now we say fight, flight,
freeze, or fawn. If you've ever been
around a puppy or something, you make a
loud noise, they freeze and don't move.
That's a preservation instinct. And
moving slowly and looking carefully is
often just absolute fear. It's just how
people are feeling. So, we have to be
careful that not to assign too much to
it. Even though he looks like he could
be medicated or something else, they
probably have told him, "Be careful what
you telegraph because there's people
like me sitting out here reading you."
So,
>> Yeah.
>> there's probably all kinds of stuff
going in this equation.
>> Yeah, what I'm interpreting as calm
could be abject terror on his part. He's
like this guy he he can barely move as
it is cuz he's just so worried about the
the magnitude of the situation that he
finds himself in. Um
there was you know,
I didn't want to spend hours going
through all 20 minutes of it. So, I
picked
a few things that I thought were
important. And just to kind of tee up
this first clip here,
he much of what he told us we already
knew. In other words, he provided a lot
of helpful information to the
prosecution in the form of foundational
testimony. He established that those
text messages were in fact sent and
received between him and Tyler Robinson.
He established that the Discord chat
that Tyler Robinson had with people
online did in fact take place. He
established that the letter that was
left behind was in fact from Tyler. It
was written in his hand. Where he found
it in the home. A lot of other stuff.
The Dremel that was used on the bullets.
But the one piece that was
entirely unique to this interview in my
view,
um was the conversation that he had in
person with Tyler the day after.
And I thought that was probably the most
significant point. If you you you raised
your finger, if you have something to
tell me, go ahead.
>> yeah,
>> do. As a matter of fact, now, I said
mostly baseline, mostly broad. There are
two instances in this entire interview
that get my attention very quickly. And
one of them is the September 11th
conversation. So, happy to continue with
where you were going, and then we'll
we'll look at it. Not sure yet.
>> Yeah, let's take a look at that right
now. I've got a 30-second clip of when
he is asked by the investigator, "Tell
us what happened when you spoke to him
the next day."
>> And did he talk about what he had done?
Uh
didn't go into detail. He just I just
asked him in person if what he said was
true the night before, and he said it
was.
Uh he started crying a little bit and
said he wishes he hadn't done it. Uh
and then kept
going around and
just doing stuff, I think, to keep
himself busy or distracted or something.
>> Go jump in.
>> Okay, so here's a couple of things. If
you go back and you were to watch I I
work off baseline. If you watch him when
they're asking him factual questions we
know the answers to, you'll watch as
he's recalling information about visual
things,
his eyes go up and to his left. I'm
going to talk to you about eye movement
because it's the most under utilized and
most over
demonized thing there is because people
don't know what the hell they're doing.
>> Right.
>> So, if I ask you everybody listening,
just what's the fifth word of your
favorite song? Just try that. Watch your
eyes, they're going to drift. And in in
most people they're going to drift
somewhere between your brow ridge and
your cheekbone, and you've got a
baseline for either right or left. And
we what we do is we ask questions that
force you to get give an answer. Well,
they do a great job of asking him
questions that show me where his
baseline is for visual cues, for for
visual remembering. When he's talking
about the day before, when Tyler left on
the 10th, he is rifling through his
visual memory for what time of the day
it was.
>> Right.
>> It's great.
>> Right.
>> His eyes go to places for information.
Now, he's asking him a question,
his eyes drop. They drop down into this
emotional state, down into your rights
where people go when they're thinking of
emotion. Think of the last funeral you
went to. You'll find your head drifting
down into your right. And he's going
down into this internal voice, this
lower left piece. So, he's batting
whatever he's thinking about between
those two.
And he's pretty fluid in his speech
patterns. We don't hear a lot of cadence
halting. But when we ask these
questions, he starts to halt. His
cadence starts uh uh and he says um for
the first time.
He's in those internal voice and those
things. It makes him look like he's not
sure what to say, where to say it, and
how to be careful. And there're two
other really big things that happen
right as this clip winds down that we
didn't show.
But he gets to this point where he
starts to adapt. You'll see movement in
his body off screen. What we mean by
adapting is I'm releasing nervous
energy. My guess is he's rubbing his
thigh or doing something like that. You
see his body moving. That's nervous
energy. We haven't seen that until we
get to this point.
The other one that we see is he um
he gets an illustrator. You know, we
talk about illustrators being we're
punctuating something. And if you've got
the clip up about when the last time he
sees him, it's beautiful. There's so
much going on in there. It's it's
beautiful. The two anomalies are this
moment, this little segment here, and
then the other one is did did um Ty-
Tyler talk about Charlie Kirk? Those are
the two big anomalies.
>> We We've got that one coming up. We'll
get to that in just a moment. Sticking
with this one for just another second.
You I have to imagine too that of all
the things his attorneys talked to him
about, they prepared him for this moment
right here, right? They knew this
question was coming.
Did that
when he gave this answer, did this
answer seem prepared to you at all? Like
if anything they were going to script
out for him, I felt like it would have
been this.
>> Well, I think he avoided giving details
is what I saw. Yeah. Okay, look. Let's
Let's be honest. If If we're friends
even, and you come home and tell me you
shot somebody, we're going to have a
pretty heated discussion. What are you
doing bringing this people to
>> Oh,
>> my.
>> aggressive, yeah. It's going to get
aggressive. Much less they're entangled
and now you're bringing them to my
house. So, what we're going to see and
hear is when he says, "I said bye to him
and then he drove off." And then he
drove off. That's a
time hiding spot. When I said bye to
him, there's probably a lot of
squabbling, a lot of fighting and
arguing. Might even be some physical
fighting going on. There's a lot of
emotion that is not talked about here.
And you can see it because he's he does
controlled release of this information.
And you're dead on. He's been told what
he should talk about and what he
shouldn't. If you go all the way to the
very beginning of the video, Josh,
you'll watch him start to answer a
question and then stop, edit, pause, and
realize I was told not to add anything I
wasn't asked. And you can see it's
preparation.
Good for his attorneys. They should be
doing it. Yeah.
But yes.
That's like the number one rule I've
ever given to a client if they're going
to shoot someone. Answer just the
question. If it can If you can answer it
with one word or yes or no, do that and
then let them ask follow-ups.
I'm I'm curious too about the actual
language he chose because when asked
this question,
it's like he immediately tried to
minimize it. And maybe I'm You're the
expert, so I This is just my my amateur
take on it. But his The first words out
of his mouth were he didn't go into
detail.
Like he already is setting up the I'm
not going to give you much out of this.
>> Yeah, I think anytime you get a guy here
and you can see he's answering There's
no narrative. When When Part of what
your job is preparing this guy for is
not to give a narrative, right? You're
Answer the questions. Don't give a
narrative. And he's avoiding narrative
at all costs. That's the reason he does
the verbal bridging or hiding piece.
He's trying to get away from having to
answer the tough the tough questions cuz
you should say, "Well, what did you talk
about?" I mean, look, we know that if he
gets if you go to testimony and this is
live in court, you can imagine what you
Somebody like you is going to take him
apart across the table.
>> Right.
>> They're going to go after all the
details because he's leaving out all the
details. It's not just that. What time
did you get home? Okay, I gave you that.
What happened when you got home? What
was he wearing?
>> Right. Right. Right. Right.
>> My interrogator brain wants 9,000 bits
of information that we're not getting
any of. There's no narrative. The
narrative is fractured and he's just
walking away from it.
>> Do you think, keeping it just to this
moment here, do you think he was being
honest in this moment?
>> I think Depends on how you define
honest. I'll sound like an attorney for
just a minute.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
>> But but if you mean by honest, is he
answering correctly? Yeah, I think he's
answering correctly because his eye
accessing cues, he's going to the same
place, same place, same place, same
place.
If I expect him to create something, I'm
going to see deviation. And in fact, if
you watch the entire video, when he
talks about Tyler, he thinks Tyler
traveled with his entire crew in one
car, his eyes do go to conjecture. So, I
got a pretty good eye movement baseline.
Most people have no clue and don't
notice all that.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I got a pretty good baseline of eye
movement and know he's being fairly
factual. He's hiding information in a
few places. He's just not not divulging,
not hiding. There's a difference.
>> And
to your point earlier, in this moment,
the the investigator, and I'm not sure
being critical, but he kind of leaves
him off the hook. Like he says
>> He ends it with and then he kind of went
about doing the busyness that he was
about the apartment and I was
shocked that the investigator didn't go,
"Wait a second.
Let's get back into this for a second
here. Any more details?" He kind of lets
it hang and moves on. Do you think that
was a mistake or are or strategic or
what was going on there?
>> Well, yeah, and I'll leave this part of
it to you, of course, because it's on
your side of the world, but if I were
doing this and know I only need X, Y,
and Z to get this to trial, that's
probably what I would go after. Because
you you are preparing him for
cross-examination by another
whatever whatever attorney he runs into,
he will be much better prepared if I
rake him over the coals first. So, you
probably want to if you have the option
to get exactly what you need to make the
case and then leave the rest of the
tools to the to the guys in the
courtroom. Or
>> Yeah, and to your point to to correct
what I said, he's actually speaking with
the prosecutors. It's prosecutor Ryan
McBride who might be doing exactly what
you said. They have a checklist of
things they need to establish and he
goes, confessed in person, check. Let's
move on before I rattle this kid any
more than I need to.
Um, let's get to this next clip though
because you referenced this. This is
when he's asked about
politics, Charlie Kirk. It's about a
minute long, so we'll watch this and
then I'll get your your This is the
other point where you said he may have
kind of changed his demeanor.
>> [snorts]
>> Um, did you and he ever talk about
politics?
Um,
he did more than we. I
I I didn't really still don't really
keep up with politics very much.
Uh, he usually talked about stuff he
heard on the radio on his drive to work
in like their work cars. So, it sounds
like a
crew when when in the same car
>> [laughter]
>> most of the time. But, I
I wouldn't say super consistently cuz
there wasn't a topic I really
contributed much on.
>> About Charlie Kirk, did you ever talk
about Charlie Kirk?
>> I I personally have never heard him talk
about Charlie Kirk before specifically.
>> Okay.
Um,
how about um
political issues? So, did you ever talk
about gender identity issues and LGBT Q
rights?
>> Uh,
no, not not really.
Um,
uh, usually if he did talk about
politics stuff, it was relating to Trump
or current like policies being uh uh
like issued or voted voted on,
I think.
But, yeah.
>> [snorts]
>> Loaded. Loaded. If you saw that
you saw the eyes move like I told you
when he started conjecture. So, he went
off to the other side of his head. It's
a beautiful example of conjecture in the
right place. I don't know it to be a
fact. I think he drove with. So, that
That's beautiful. That means the other
stuff is pretty dependable.
But, when he gets asked about Charlie
Kirk, watch his eyes go down into that
emotional and internal voice. More
importantly, watch that jaw move.
Lip compression is withheld information.
When a person does this,
think of Anthony Weiner, Bill Clinton,
every guy who's ever been in real
trouble. You see the picture when
>> Mhm.
>> It's contained emotion or contained
information immediately after Kirk. It
would not matter, but it's an orphan in
the entire video. It's the only time we
see him do it.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it gives us a red flag. Then, he
withdraws his lips in his mouth.
We typically associate that with needing
some kind of
support or belief or that kind of thing.
There's two others. There's two others.
When he's asked about did you talk
about, he does a pronoun shift. He goes
to the other guy very quickly. He didn't
say, "No, we didn't talk." He He He and
he qualified by saying, "Not really."
So, there's a lot of distancing from the
facts.
And there's that lip compression, that
working the jaw, that chin.
All that would make me just so Hold on a
second. I got a bunch of questions for
you.
>> Yeah.
I noticed too and and
I was trying to pay really close
attention to the words that he was using
because I noticed
he's being asked did
Robinson ever talk about politics? Did
Robinson ever talk about Charlie Kirk?
He's asking, "What is What is Tyler
doing?"
But, his answers immediately start to
describe his own involvement first. Like
his first thing is he did more than me.
Did he ever talk about politics? He did
more than me.
>> Right.
>> Uh it wasn't a topic I contributed to
much. I personally never heard him talk
about Charlie Clark. It's like the the
the the question called for Tyler
Robinson, but the answer gave Lance
Twiggs, you
>> With one exception, when they asked him,
"Did you talk about this?" Meaning
collectively, he said, "He." Boom, he
pushed it right back off. So, he's he's
I call that, you know, if you think
about burlesque in the old days where
they would use these fans to cover I
always call that fan dancing. They're
covering up things and making you think
there's something to see.
>> Yeah, but
>> of a silly one, but yeah.
>> It did seem or you tell me
does it seem like here he's being
evasive? Like he's he's he's trying to
distance himself from the conversations
they may have had.
>> Well, if I were interrogating somebody
who in the same situation, I would put
brush aside all the rest of stuff and
I'd focus on two areas. The one is the
night when he came home and they talked
about this cuz there's a boatload of
details buried in that, guaranteed.
Guaranteed. Cuz people are emotional,
he's crying, he's breaking. There's all
kinds of stuff that you can learn from
it. So, I would dig into that one. And
then this one about their political
discussions, I would tear them apart
about that because this one has more
evasive body language than anything else
we saw. We saw him the things I was just
saying. We saw all that facial
expression around did you talk about
Kirk? Well, yeah, they talked about
Kirk, almost guaranteed. Did they talk
about other things? Guaranteed they
almost talked about those other things
because there's so much deviation from
his baseline again. Baseline's
everything, right?
>> Yeah.
This is
Do you think there's Do you have to
adapt how you
analyze this given the fact that they
aren't in the same room together? Is
there is that Does that play a role?
>> Well, it always plays some role, but not
as much as you might think, Josh,
because again, he's 22, 24. He has an
attorney in the room. He knows he's in
trouble. If you look, he's paying
attention to his attorney. There's
probably a little bit more control. You
know how that goes. If you got an
attorney in the room, you got an anchor.
And when you feel stressed, you can look
over to the to the anchor versus being
by yourself or versus being on the
stand. If you're sitting in front of a
courtroom and you got an attorney
nailing you and going at you,
now you got everybody watching, you know
the world's watching, you know
everything is going on. There's no
chance to take a break, you can't move
your feet under the table. We don't know
what his feet are doing. We can't see if
he's curling his toes in his shoes. We
don't know if he's batting his feet
around or crossing them. We can't see
all of this down. We're seeing a really
restrictive view, and we still can see
all of this.
>> Yeah.
Uh do you
I- if if you are advising the
prosecutor's office here after seeing
and I've got one more clip and we'll get
into it, but after seeing all of this,
are you at all questioning how he'll
perform at trial? Because like you said,
I do believe
um
now after hearing you talk about it, I
do believe they're probably going very
light on him. Like they're
To me,
you're right. They should have gone in
and say, "That's ridiculous. The man
just murdered someone and you're telling
me you never heard him mention his name
before in your life. You lived with him
for how many months?" Like but they
don't. They they really soft shoe it
through this whole thing. Are they Do
you think they should be concerned about
how he might hold up under cross?
>> If you're talking about the defense, oh
yeah, I think I do.
>> No, the pro- like the prosecution.
They're going to put him on as a
witness. Should they be concerned how he
responds to the defense
>> Oh, of course, yeah. I mean, if you've
got a good enough attorney to go hammer
him and really follow up and get all the
details, yeah, you should be concerned
because I mean, the problem is I think
you said it earlier, they're going to
rely on a lot of evidence that he's can
prove things like off of his cell phone,
I got that, I did this, I did that. But
when they get down to the those facts,
when they get down to the mechanics of
this and they start attacking him, I
don't I don't know he's going to stand
up to that as well as he sta- stood up
to this guy. So, some preparation, for
sure, is necessary for him to be able to
stand up to that cross-examination, for
sure.
>> And it it's funny to me because the the
the defense has kind of hinted around
that perhaps Twigs was more involved. I
mean, they made a big deal about the
fact that his DNA was found on the
towel, things like that, [clears throat]
but they haven't really
they haven't really seemed to go hard
that they feel like Twigs
I I Okay, I'm I'm stumbling to get this
out, but I feel there will be a shift by
the time we get to trial where the
defense will come after Twigs far more
aggressively.
>> Go with the credibility, right? Yeah.
>> Yes, and I'm wondering if that will have
to do if that has to do with right now
that it's
Tyler Robinson's their client and might
be telling them to back off in how
they're handling all of this, but I
mean, if once he gets on the stand at
trial and this is really, you know, now
it now it all really matters, I can't
see them not hammering this young man
and say, "You knew far more and you were
far more involved and now you're just
doing this to save your own skin, blah
blah blah."
>> Well, and Josh, if you're that guy, if
you're that the attorney and you hear
those and thens and after that, you
don't leave that in place. You say,
"Hold on Hold on a minute. What we know
like in my world, you'll have
depending on who you're talking to,
they're really good at hiding time. You
know, they'll do lies of omission, you
know, they'll great one. I went to see
my ex-wife, I gave her the check and
then I left. They don't mention they
backed over. They use "and then" and
then and they're and they're out of it.
That's the way people hide time, the way
they hide information. And the good
interrogator, good investigator, good
attorney is going to say, "Hold on. That
and then, let's talk about that." And
then you get the person to say, "Boom
boom boom boom and then Okay,
you forget everything else you've heard
except for that opportunity to hide time
because that opportunity to hide time is
full of information. When we leave any
facts out of that night of September
11th about what they talked about, did
they fight? Was there an argument? Where
what did he have on?
All that stuff that just got left by the
door. All that will come into if if I
were in the defense's position, of
course I would be asking all those
questions. So, what time did he come in?
How was he dressed? What did he have?
Did he have a firearm on?
Run down 50 things you could ask. And I
think this part here around what he
talked about will I agree with you is
going to come home to roost. This will
be an
If they're aggressive in this case, he's
going to have a lot of questions to
answer because you can see his body
language change, Derek. So, that's
telling you as contained as he's been,
this is a fracture. And I always say I
made a living out of finding nice little
cracks in a pearl and breaking it open.
You've got to be aggressive or the other
analogy I would use is like taking an
ice pick to a guy in armor looking for a
hole.
>> Yeah.
>> Once you find it, it's ugly. And that's
what you find with people often.
>> Yeah. There were there were a couple of
points where and this is not me being a
genius about it. People have identified
this online and and I think it was
fairly obvious, but there were a couple
of points that it just really stretched
your your concept of credulity when it
came to him. The one the first one was
the idea of that they had this almost
you know, casual momentary conversation
after the man has just admitted he
committed assassination. And now the
next day, "Hey, was that all true?"
"Yeah, it was true." He gets a little
weepy and then goes about sweeping up
the house. I mean, that that just did
not take place in my view. The other one
was the the Dremel. When he starts
talking about he asked for a Dremel a
month ahead of time.
>> Yep.
>> And then it was like this, "Oh, yeah,
sure. You're you want to engrave some
bullets? Oh, yeah, that sounds like fun.
Go have Go have at it. Here's Here's a
clip. It's about 30 seconds long. Let's
Let's watch this here.
>> [snorts]
>> Um the Dremel that you talked about, um
you said he had asked for that, is that
right?
>> Mhm.
>> And then he told you it was to inscribe
bullets?
>> Yeah.
>> And uh so did you have a Dremel then?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Uh it was in our like we had a
our apartment we had a section where we
kept all our like random tools for
household stuff.
Uh in our like uh lower basement level
pantry.
Um so yeah.
>> Okay. And did you give that to him or
tell him where it was?
>> I just told him where it was, yeah.
>> [sighs]
>> And that was it. They left it at that.
They didn't go, "Wait a second. You
didn't ask him what he was doing this
for?" I think at one point he says well
he goes hunting or I thought it where he
explained
>> He used to go hunting.
>> What Did you I mean that to me again is
just [clears throat] so a little
far-fetched here.
>> Well, and they they talked about the
Dremel twice in a 20-minute interview,
which is a little interesting, which
means it's an important part of the
case, I would imagine. So they're trying
to ensure that they have reinforced the
fact that these guys that he actually
was using the Dremel on these
on these bullets, but I'm with you. He
says his family was going to go do some
hunting trip. Okay, well, what are you
hunting that you need to write on
bullets? That's would be my next
question. I'd ask a ton of questions
around that. He does his blink rate does
increase a bit when they start talking
about the Dremel. Remember we talked
about stress causing blink rate
increases often. So we look for that and
then when he's done saying, "Yeah, I I I
told him where it was at." We see him
emotionally eye access down to the right
again. There's feelings in this guy that
he's This is why I first time I saw a
30-second clip or 20-second clip, I
thought he might be medicated because
there's feelings. You see his eyes are
down to the right, but it doesn't show a
lot. He's got a lot of vocal fry, really
heavy voice, not looping because of the
pressure of the situation. But yet
Look, I I think if you were had this guy
on the on the hot seat, not like this.
This is different from being sitting in
a live courtroom, and you start putting
pressure on him, you're going to start
to see leakage. He's contained. He's got
good attorneys who are going to sit tell
him to sit there and hold his hands and
everything in place.
But the problem is studies show that
when a person's being honest, they move
their hands as they talk. They use the
illustrator body. There's a guy named
Aldert Vrij out of the UK who did study
that showed
significant correlation between movement
and speaking and and truthfulness.
And there's no indicator of a lie, but
there's plenty of indicators that
something's not right.
>> I will tell you
um
my impression too was that
uh
we didn't know what to expect of Lance
Twiggs. We'd heard a lot about him. We'd
seen some photographs. We had heard that
he kind of lived this alternative
lifestyle, that he was transitioning.
You know, he I I I think I probably like
a lot of people was kind of expecting
someone who was not going to be as
nearly put together as this young man
appeared to be.
>> I agree.
>> I feel like even in even in
considering all that we've just been
discussing,
he's clearly answering questions,
clearly understands the questions,
presents very well, not a lot of
stuttering, not a lot of like you know,
uh
I I don't know, like clearly evasive,
you know, not answering. I don't know.
What do you think?
>> No, I think he does I said earlier, I
think this is a good model of baseline
with two exceptions. Those two
exceptions are around
the part where he's talking about the
11th when he's home and that, and then
when he's asked about Kirk. Because if
you notice, your whole point Now, here's
the problem. Your baseline is deadly. If
If baseline is this and I get you on the
stand, and I start going wham, wham,
wham,
>> and you start to glitch, and start to
change cadence, and slow down, and look
the places you haven't, now you're in a
bind, and you're keen What most people
don't ever think about is once you start
down that road, and that loop tape
starts playing inside your head, and
that fight or flight starts, now it just
you're running from your own head.
You're not running the guy across the
room. And it's hard to get out of that
cycle. So, a good guy standing across
the room going at you, and taking your
story apart element by element by
element, the first time you get a
glitch, you got him. And the glitches
show here. You can see them. But, he has
put together
>> of them, yeah.
>> Yeah, they're very small. Yep.
>> Uh I want to thank some folks who've
been so patient. Thank you, Cynthia
Martin. Uh very kind of you. Says, "Greg
is going to baseline us." I think he
already has, by the way. He's You're
already been in analyzed. Arizona gal,
thank you so much. Greetings from
Tucson. Monsoon rains, flash floods, and
the heavenly scent of
creosote
>> creosote creosote bushes.
>> Uh thrilled to be here with my CC
family. Thank I'm so glad I had you here
just for that that that
>> I love their ones, so yeah.
>> Uh and Johnna Moore, thank you so much.
Uh diet Coke fund for Josh. I appreciate
[laughter] that. That is how I survive
my day.
Um one thing I didn't even think to ask
you until right now, so I'm just going
to kind of spring this on you, is one
person we didn't see much of during this
entire hearing was Tyler Robinson. They
had the cameras in court. They were
positioned behind him.
>> Yep.
>> We couldn't see a lot of his reactions.
Um but, I will tell you from people who
were in court that had a better view of
him, I spoke to them, and they said
there were two points where he started
to kind of seem like
he was
he was struggling. Like he was
They In fact, he was described as kind
of being unplugged for most most of it.
But, two points they said that he
started to seem agitated. One was in the
discussion of the bullets and the
etchings that were put on the bullets.
>> Yep.
>> And the other was when in the discussion
about the rifle being his grandfather's
rifle. What do you make of that? Well,
and I know you you weren't able to see
him, but go ahead if just
>> What what you would think Look, what I
can see here is what we know when people
press their face is that stress relief.
It There's nerves in your face that
relax when you press and that kind of
thing. So, what we're looking for when a
person gets agitated is release of
nervous energy. What we can't tell, and
you hear me say this all the time, I
can't read minds. I can read symptoms,
and then we have to figure out why. And
when I watch a person fidgeting around
this is grandfather's rifle, well, that
ties it pretty tightly to you. And when
I watch him talk about
using a Dremel tool to engrave bullets,
well, that ties it pretty tightly to
you. So, that might be two of the most
damning things anybody could prove is
the reason I would think it. And and
he's probably been told by his defense,
if they are managed to like to tightly
nail these things to you, you got real
problems.
>> Yeah.
>> And so, you know, you can imagine if you
were handling his case, you would say,
"They get these two things nailed down,
you're in trouble you're in real trouble
cuz you they're connecting you to the
weapon and the rounds. That's brutal."
That's That would be my guess the reason
we see agitation. All agitation is we
see it in all kinds of ways. We call
those adapters. It's a way of releasing
nervous energy. People play with their
ring. They may twirl their hair. I don't
have any, so I play with my ring. They
do a little bit of anything else. They
may straighten their clothes. All kinds
of things to release nervous energy. So,
when you see him wiggling or dancing or
moving, that's what that's all about.
Does a person ever do that
but you're still don't feel that they're
being untruthful? Like, can can a person
fidget and it's just kind of the stress
of the moment and it's not necessarily
an indication of untruthfulness?
>> That's right. So, there is no such thing
as an indicator of untruthfulness.
They're clusters. Remember I when you I
said the Charlie Kirk thing, I give you
a list of four things. Bam, bam, bam,
bam. They changed immediately. If a
person just sits and wiggles, that means
nothing. That's might be their baseline.
This might be their baseline. I worked
with a really odd guy many, many years
ago who would pet his mustache
constantly.
>> Huh.
>> When he got stressed, he would just do
it faster and faster and faster.
But it was really weird, but it was not
that he was being deceptive. He was just
odd.
>> It's just his way of coping with with
with life.
>> Yep.
>> Um
let me get again to to some people who
wanted to to tell you how much they
appreciate you being on here uh tonight.
Uh
first of all, Afton points out that you
please um
watch our conversation episodes that we
had with Greg. We sat down and you and I
had a a really great chat about how how
you ended up where you are now. So,
please check that out everybody. Uh PMO
Behavior says, "More of this, please.
Loving this conversation." I am, too.
Thank you guys so much for being here
tonight.
Rachel D says, "Greg Hartley, I'm a
super fan." You got a lot of fans in our
chat this evening, my friend. Three
Doxies, one prince, fascinating, Greg.
Thank you so much. Um and Little Miss
Red Velvet says, "Brilliant analysis. I
couldn't agree more." Um you
Is there anything coming up on your
channel? Or wait a Wait a minute. I want
to give you kind of a last word on this.
Is there a Is there a last kind of
thought that you want to share or or one
piece that we didn't get into this
evening before I let you go?
>> No, I I think it what you covered is
great. You pulled some great clips. What
we see is good baseline of a guy. We
don't know what was redacted, so we
don't know how agitated that was. But
what we see are two areas of focus. The
two areas of focus would be what
happened on September 11th
and then that Charlie Kirk conversation.
And this is how you know that body
language and behavior matters. We didn't
discuss the two clips you pulled. Those
are the two that I focused on. Those are
the two that you pulled.
>> Yeah.
>> So, that should tell you you can see
Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting.
Thank you so much, my friend. Is there
something I We've got all the links to
your your YouTube channel, um the
Behavior Panel, to your your social
media. Um is there anything coming up on
your channel that you guys want to kind
of flag for everybody?
>> Well, we're going to cover this one as
well in great detail. So, we'll take it
apart. But, we're we're trying to get a
whole bunch of interrogation videos.
We're all traveling so much right now.
It's chaotic. But, as you can imagine,
trying to get four people together at
any given time. And everybody who
watches the Behavior Panel, if you don't
come see us, subscribe. We love having
new people and talking. Wherever we try
to join chats when we launch our new
shows every week. And we'll we promise
we'll get new stuff out consistently as
much as we can. That's what I was
saying.
>> best. You're the best. I really really
appreciate your time, my friend. Thank
you so much. Good to see you, by the
way.
>> Thank you, sir. Good to see you. Let's
do it again.
>> Take care.
Uh we put up the link. If you guys are
not a subscriber,
do yourself a favor. They I think some
of the best content on YouTube uh
because all four of them are excellent
experts in these fields of behavior
analysis, sign language analysis,
language analysis. Each of them have
their strengths. And to hear them kind
of
discuss these cases, and he told me
before, Greg did, that they don't
discuss it ahead of time. It's all their
cold reaction to the these things in
real time. So, it's a very entertaining,
very educational stuff. Please check it
out. All right, don't go anywhere,
everybody. Here's what we have coming up
next. We have a viewers poll for you.
There were some other stuff in the news
uh over the last few days that we don't
want you to miss out on. So, we've got a
few minutes left. With that, we can
either discuss one Andrea Shaw. This is
the case out of Idaho. She's accused of
suffocating her 18-month-old twins.
Where this
all kind of gathered a lot of media
attention is that originally she said
that her twins died after being
vaccinated and she blamed the
vaccinations and she became kind of a
voice piece for all of that. She even
was part of a lawsuit dealing with the
vaccinations and now she's just been
arrested for their murders
and she is going to have her arraignment
tomorrow. Number two, Caleb Flynn.
We've talked about this one quite a bit.
He's the former American Idol star from
Ohio. He's accused of killing his wife
Ashley Flynn. This was while the
children were at home and the judge
recently made a ruling on whether or not
the children can testify and under what
mechanism not mechanism, what conditions
they can testify which is kind of
interesting. The prosecution had been
asking for them to perhaps even testify
behind a screen. So that's number two.
Number three is Sarah Grace Patrick.
This is the Georgia teen accused of
killing her mom Kristen Brock and her
stepdad James Brock
in cold blood. Just shooting them both
as as they lay in bed. Uh she had a
hearing today. She's got new defense
attorneys and they were arguing for
um a continuance for a further delay. So
those are your cases. Andrea Shaw, Caleb
Flynn, Sarah Grace Patrick. We'll put
the poll up now. Uh in the meantime let
me thank uh some of you who've been
sitting around so patiently. Thank you
so much Heather Coopersmith for the
super sticker. Really appreciate that.
Uh Jen H 9144, thank you for gifting a
membership. Always appreciated.
Heather Coopersmith again, thank you for
the super sticker.
The Crafty RN says make Tiffany happy.
Let's get to 700. You knew. You knew she
was going to say that. Where are we at
right now?
I don't know, she says. Less than 700
I'm guessing.
>> [clears throat]
>> All right. Well, we appreciate you
uh hitting that like button if you
haven't already. Uh, I think I don't
deserve it. I think Greg deserves it.
That was such a great conversation.
Elizabeth, thank you so much for
supporting the mods with coffees.
I'd, uh,
I'd a Van Schalkwyk.
I'd a Van Schalkwyk. Thank you for the
super sticker.
Uh, and Aften says, "Please hit the like
to show appreciation for the ad-free
live we have made ourselves a pledge to
never bring you a live stream. If you're
watching it, we're not going to let
YouTube interrupt it, so that's why
we're so appreciative of all your
support." All right, do we have results?
Was that enough time to get a vote in?
Um, again, it was Andrea Shaw, Caleb
Flinn, Sarah Grace Patrick. Let's see
who
brought it home.
Caleb Flinn. Interesting. 42%. Good, I
wanted to talk about this one.
And as always, if we don't get to the
one that you wanted to discuss, join us
every Friday when we do our weekly
roundup. We usually include all of the
overlooked, but not outvoted, but not
overlooked cases in our,
uh,
um,
leftovers section of every weekly
roundup on Fridays. Caleb Flinn.
February 16th, 2026. When is
Valentine's Day?
The The The When is it?
The 14th?
So, 2 days after Valentine's Day.
Right? February 14th it's Valentine's
Day. 2 days later,
uh, according to prosecutors in Ohio,
Caleb Flinn shoots his wife to death.
Now, isn't that romantic?
Um, he The reason why,
sadly enough,
people are shooting each other all over
this country. And every once in a while,
you wonder why why does a case get a
bunch of attention while others don't?
And there's always some hook, right? The
media picks it up for whatever reason.
Uh he was a former American Idol
contestant, and so that was kind of what
people ran with them originally. Uh he's
also a former uh worship pastor. So, it
just kind of seemed to fit into that
mold of cases that are um
going to get a little more attention.
But, it also has a lot of intrigue
involve involved in the whole thing. Do
we Are we able to play a little bit of
that 911 call, Kaylen? No? Okay, she
says hold on a second.
Um we'll try to get that up because this
is kind of the interesting part of it,
too, is he in the course of this 911
call, we should have just kept Greg on
for this one just to hear the 911 call.
He's sounding frantic and uh panicked
and uh beside himself and emotional, but
he's also saying some very interesting
things in the course of that 911 call
that a lot of people have pointed
towards as saying that just doesn't
sound right. Let me just let me know
when you're ready, Kaylen.
Um anyhow, he has been arrested Okay,
you're ready? Let's take it to that one
point that we always stop it at. I think
that's kind of interesting. Here, listen
to a little bit of this.
>> Oh my god.
Miami County 911.
Oh my Oh my somebody Somebody broke into
my home. Somebody broke into my home.
They shot my wife.
>> Are they still in there?
>> I I don't know. I don't know.
>> Okay, what's the address?
>> 932 County Ham Court, Tipp City, Ohio.
Please, please hurry. Please, please
hurry. [laughter]
>> What are you What are you saying?
>> My wife is
She's got two shots to her head.
>> That's the part. That's the part that a
lot of people have pointed towards.
She's got two shots to her head.
How in the panic of this moment
doesn't know if the man is still in the
home, the alleged
assailant doesn't know,
you know, doesn't you know, his children
could be in danger. By the way, he's got
two daughters ages 9 and 12 at the time.
They're they were apparently asleep
while this took place. Doesn't know
where they're at, doesn't know how he
got into the home. All of this
chaos going around this man's life in
this moment.
And he had the wherewithal to inspect
her head.
To go, she's got two bullet holes to the
head. Now, could be
uh
you know, if you're his attorney, you
could say, "Well, I heard two he heard
two shots." Whatever. In any case, I
don't think it's just that. You can
listen to the rest of it. It does sound
a little suspect in my view. So, he's
heading to trial. The and that was
investigators didn't take all that long
to determine he wasn't being all that
um
uh
honest with them.
>> [laughter]
>> Anyhow, back in April,
uh the prosecution uh wants to call the
kids. This is just going to be
brutal stuff.
Remember, they were So, this took place
back in Oh, so they're still
I mean, maybe they were 9 and 12 at the
time. This was just in February. This is
one of those trials that he's getting to
trial very quickly. Within months.
So, they're 9 and 12. They very easily
could be still those same ages. You
know, maybe they passed a birth date in
the meantime, but the prosecution uh
wants to call the the girls.
And uh they they made a motion to have
the invocation of uh the rights for
minors and you know, particularly
vulnerable people who testified. This
would include uh protective measures
that including a screen to prevent the
child from seeing the defendant, the
public, or both.
So, they may have testified, if the
prosecution had their way, behind kind
of a screen that you can't really see
them.
I've never seen that done, by the way.
Uh I've seen um young people testify
about really horrific stuff that they
had either witnessed or had happened to
them personally,
but they were always in court. There was
somebody holding their hand and somebody
right next to them, and maybe they had
set up some things so that they couldn't
see a clear line of sight over to the
defendant, but I've never seen a screen
put up.
The defense says uh this violates his
constitutional rights uh to confront his
accusers.
Love that. Love that for uh the these
daughters growing up. Mom is now dead,
and dad's calling them accusers.
Uh but the judge uh
didn't go for it. Didn't go for what the
prosecution said. This is what the judge
had to say about the whole thing. He
said, "There has been no showing." And
again, I'm not Please don't take this as
though I'm saying this judge made a bad
call here, but the judge said there has
been no showing that testifying in the
presence of the defendant would cause
trauma, impair the child's ability to
communicate, or otherwise justify
deviation from standard confrontation
procedures.
The absence of any evidentiary basis for
such findings is fatal to the state's
motion." This is Judge Janine Pratt.
Um
Here's how how I think we should view
this. Could we get mad at the judge here
and say, "Are you kidding me?
You're telling me that them testifying
in the presence of their father, who
they now are believing may have killed
their mother,
is not going to cause them trauma or
impair their ability to communicate?
Give me a break."
But pay attention to that last line.
The judge says, "The absence of any
evidentiary basis for such findings is
fatal to the state's motion." I think
the judge is saying here,
"You didn't put it on the record."
Prosecutors, you didn't tell me You
can't just say we want this cuz we think
it would be great.
You have to say,
"They've spoken to psychologists and the
therapists say that these children in
particular are very triggered by very
set off by the
the discussion of their father, being in
the same room as their father, seeing
their father, discussing the the events
of that evening, whatever. Whatever it
is, you got to put something in front of
the judge. Otherwise, you're making the
judge make a call. And by the way, this
would be
a a not a violation, but some sort of
restriction of his right to confront
witnesses against him. It's a
constitutional right.
Um you're making the judge just say, "I
think that we're going to do that here
because I feel it's the right thing and
the prosecution feels it's the right
thing."
That could create an appealable issue.
So, the judge, I think, is saying, "You
dropped the ball, prosecutors. You
needed to put that on the record, and I
don't have a record that I can base that
decision on." So, if things remain the
way that they are right now,
these girls or girl or whoever testifies
are going to have to testify in open
court with their father staring right
back at them.
God be with them. Um I'm sure there will
be other mechanisms put in place. I'm
sure they will have victim advocate
people there with them. Those things are
usually without question, but um
maybe they'll revisit this issue. So,
God, that's going to be a really Is that
one going to be televised?
Um I'm curious. That will be a very uh
uh uh
dramatic trial to watch to to if these
girls actually do end up testifying.
So, we'll see. Next court date uh
Oh.
>> [laughter]
>> This is so funny.
Greg was I guess still watching the
show. Is that it? Greg was still
watching when we were talking about this
911 call and he and he called Tiffany to
say,
"If someone is telling a story, they're
creating an alibi." I love that. Talking
about the the 911 call here with uh
Flynn. Should have just kept him on.
Next time, tell him tell him he's on
call for when this actually goes to
trial. I want I would love to hear his
thoughts on this.
But yeah, if someone if someone is
telling a story, they're creating an
alibi. I like that.
That's why I tell no stories. I got I
got nothing to hide.
Anyhow, uh this case will be back in
court August 25th for probably a like
final status conference hearing. Trial
is expected to start September 17th. If
you want to know um the difference
between jurisdictions,
Caleb Flynn murdered his wife allegedly
in February of this year and he's going
to go to trial in September.
That is what? How many months everybody?
I'm uh what? Seven months time?
Tyler Robinson allegedly murders Charlie
Kirk and it took 10 months to even get
him to the prelim stage. So,
vastly different speeds that these two
cases are being handled at. All right,
everybody. Uh don't go anywhere. Let me
give you some quick announcements and
then get you out of here. First of all,
thank you Wendy Jones for supporting the
mods with coffees. That's very kind of
you. Uh let me tell you about a website.
It's called
thecourtroomconfidential.com.
If you go there, what you will find are
the three ends. One, messages. If you
would like to leave us a message, go to
the courtroom confidential.com and click
on leave us a message. Why do I want to
leave you a message, Ritter?
Well, maybe you want to ask a question
about one of the cases we've been
following. Uh maybe you've got a
question about the law or courtroom
procedure and you want to hear my answer
on it. Well, I will answer that for you
every Sunday on our show Sunday Funday.
So, please leave us a message. Love to
hear from you. Last Sunday, I think we
had a record amount of brand new callers
and that was fantastic. So, please keep
them coming, everybody.
So many have done it, so can you. Number
two, memberships. If you Many of you
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you so much for the generosity and
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If you didn't receive one, don't get
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That gives you access to the hottest new
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with Tiff.
Uh where she discusses I don't know. A
lot of times I think she goes off
script. She tells me what she's going to
talk about and then I find out later and
it was a lot of
uh in of other extraneous included
information. So, please don't check out
don't miss the good times every Tuesday
with Tiffany. And then finally, merch.
Uh we've got this
What is this?
Army green, sage counsel, says Farm
Girl. I like that.
Um
We've got this shirt available. We've
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And if you are dealing with the heat,
obs obsce
Obfuscation.
I used the word of myself and I can't
even get it out of my mouth. Obfuscation
olive.
Done.
Print it up. That's now the name of this
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Um if you
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you need a summer survival kit. We've
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Confidential. The Not My Fault Summer
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We've got you covered here at Courtroom
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if you happen to get in a fender bender,
we've even got you covered there with a
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Courtroom Confidential. All right. Uh
what did you miss? Well, this Sunday we
had as I mentioned before our Sunday
Funday. We talked about Here's some of
the questions that came up if you're
curious. Regarding Kouri Richins, will
they settle her financial crimes trial?
We got into that. Carmelo Anthony, the
chances of a successful appeal. And if
you could choose one of the I love this
one. If you could choose one of the
founding fathers to meet face to face,
who would it be? What would you talk to
them about?
That was a real fun one. So, please
check out this latest episode of Sunday
Funday. It's available now.
Stay tuned. Uh wait a minute. First of
all, David Oh.
I know that man. What a sweet man. Thank
you very much, sir. I appreciate
all all your generosity in more than one
way.
Um
out today.
We're very proud and very excited to
announce that on Fox Nation there's a
brand new documentary called
A Digital History of Violence.
Where is Ana Walsh? Um
you should check it out. It's really
well done and here's uh
a short clip to explain to you why I am
so interested.
>> of Saturday the 7th, uh we began [music]
to get results from the consent searches
from his electronic devices. Uh some of
the results were [music] very
concerning. Questions about disposing
bodies, how long it takes for a body to
begin to smell, best ways to clean up
crime scenes, uh things of that nature.
>> It's probably [music] the most valuable
piece of uh evidence that they stumbled
across and it's things like how long
before a body starts to smell, how do
you clean up blood, can you be charged
with murder without a body?
>> These searches are coming fast and
furious
within seconds of each other on the 1st.
>> As the days progressed, the searches
grew more [music] graphic.
>> These are searches that they now believe
are taking place within hours [music] of
her last being seen alive. And these are
searches that really don't have any kind
of
>> [music]
>> reasonable explanation for them. There's
no defensible reason for why somebody
would be searching for something like
how to clean up blood out of a wooden
floor. Can you be charged with murder
without a body? [music]
>> On the fourth and final interview,
that's when we confronted Brian about
the search history.
>> So, how do you explain at about 4:54 in
the morning, the iPad mini is querying
the 10 best ways to dispose of a human
body?
>> Now now when I watch that clip, all I'm
doing is trying to analyze my my body
language. Like, oh, look at it. Does is
his do his hand gestures match with
what's coming out of his mouth? I don't
know.
Maybe that guy did it. Maybe that guy
knows where Anna is.
Anyhow, it was a very project to be
proud of a part of. I'm very proud of
it. I think the end result was
fantastic. Really well done. I know
there's been other documentaries on this
case, but this one is absolutely worth
your time. If please if you're not
already a subscriber, go ahead and check
out Fox Nation. They're always running
some sort of deal
and check out this this new
documentary that I was proud to be a
part of. It's out today.
Then on Wednesday, we've got our
Wednesday night live. Oh, we got to 700
likes. Well, thank you guys. What did we
do? Oh, well, there you go. There's the
membership. So enjoy.
As promised, we have our Wednesday night
live coming up. We plan on doing kind of
a five things you need to know Lindsey
Clancy episode Wednesday because her
trial is coming up next week and we
thought we kind of need to get us all
prepared for that. So that's the plan
for Wednesday. Friday a couple of things
are happening on Friday and Sunday.
We have put together a multi-part
docu-series
if we could be so bold as to call it
that. I think it's more of an interview
series. A look back on the Brian Walsh
Idaho 4 murders. Brian Walsh. Brian
Coberger. Too many Brian's get into
trouble.
A look back at the Brian Coberger Idaho
4 murders.
So we did a series of interviews and the
first two are being released this
weekend. On Friday is part one. We're
calling it Idaho 4 after the plea. We
sat down with Kevin Fixler. You're all
big fans of him. If you're looking to
get your Fixler fix,
check it out this Friday premiering at
4:00 p.m. Pacific 7:00 p.m. Eastern. No
weekly roundup that day.
Then on Sunday, part two
of Idaho 4 after the plea. We sat down
with Joseph Scott Morgan from the Body
Bags podcast. Also a big uh
favorite of ours here at Courtroom
Confidential to discuss some of the um
forensic side of that entire case. Uh
that will premiere on Sunday at 9:00
a.m. Pacific, 12:00 p.m. Eastern. And
again, no Sunday Funday. So we're we're
we're missing a couple of our regular
programming, but instead we're giving
you some special programming on Friday
and Sunday. Please join us. All right.
Um let me take the moment now to thank
some of our newest members.
Um
be with me. Be with me in this.
Mary Maggie O'Kelly
San Diego Jan
Bob Bob by the sea, Kathleen M. Dalton,
Sally
Hogue Hogland
Ruth R. Ruth Aker Salty Girl Justice for
All, Chloe E Girl, L No, L Girl 72
Jules
Alessio, Grace May, Sleepy Burrito, love
that one. Pru
Priority Self Coach Mean Benjamin
Mean Benjamin, Melissa Ann WD, Linda
Whitaker, Donna Turner, Zuzu Thomas, Kes
Byron Byrena
Kimberlea
C Share, I love how you just go to
check out Tiffany's show while he
struggles to get through this whole
thing. You should just play play like
clips of like
I don't know, you know, like
cat videos or something while I struggle
to get through this.
Lee Johnson, Utah Mom, Christy Just
Kristen, Melanie Just
Jen Stegnoli
Rusta, T Heeled Girl, Chillin 420 Boogie
Bear, Jennifer Snoke,
Dan Slulu, and Spooky Electric. You guys
are all fantastic. Thank you so much for
joining our membership program. See,
some people do join up. Uh big special
shout out and thank you to Greg Hartley
from the Behavior Panel for being with
us tonight.
Uh Jenny Wilson just became a YouTube
member, everybody. She Be like Jenny and
join our membership program. Lindsay
Clancy trial uh will be on CC live
trials next week. So, it is going to be
televised.
Okay. So, we will be covering that. I'll
be telling you more about that later in
the week, but check out our sister
channel CC live trials, Courtroom
Confidential live trials for live
streaming of that trial.
There's Greg's um
uh social media handles and YouTube
channel. Please give him a big shout out
and thank you next time when you see
him. Send them some juice boxes from all
of us. Big shout out and thank you to
our mod squad, Afton Shekau, Kathy
Therapist You Know Best, Nancy and Becky
B. You guys are rock stars. Kaylin,
you're the best. Thank you for
everything. This was a fantastic uh
show. I appreciate everything you put
into this.
And Tiffany, you are the best thing that
ever happened to me. Take care,
everybody. We will see you here tomorrow
or Wednesday night. Bye-bye.
>> [music]
[music]
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