[00:00] There's been some maybe unexpected
[00:02] fallout from the murder of Charlie Kirk
[00:04] last week, and that is including some
[00:06] people who have actually lost their jobs
[00:09] in response to comments they made. MSNBC
[00:12] political analyst Matthew Dow lost his
[00:14] job shortly after he made comments about
[00:16] the assassination. His employer said
[00:19] that he was uh wrong, that he was
[00:22] inciting, and that he was that his
[00:23] comments were were hateful,
[00:25] >> also inappropriate, insensitive, and
[00:27] unacceptable. Also, there was a staff
[00:29] member at the University of Mississippi
[00:31] who was fired after sharing insensitive
[00:33] comments, according to the school's
[00:34] chancellor. A comic book writer lost her
[00:37] job because of social media posts, as
[00:39] did other educators in Mississippi and
[00:41] Tennessee. A cal a Carolina Panthers
[00:44] public relations official official uh
[00:46] lost their job. Right. I mean, it's it's
[00:49] a question of how far can how far do
[00:53] First Amendment rights go?
[00:55] >> Yeah. And and the answer to that is it
[00:56] doesn't. Your employer in under in most
[00:59] states, including Utah, can fire you for
[01:01] just about anything, including
[01:03] exercising your First Amendment rights
[01:04] if they don't like what you say. So the
[01:07] First Amendment is great. You can say
[01:08] what you want, but an employer doesn't
[01:11] have to keep you on their staff if if
[01:13] you're violating. So, for example, there
[01:15] there wouldn't necessarily be a a
[01:17] criminal prosecution for a First
[01:19] Amendment violation or they or some
[01:20] level of censorship, but your employer
[01:23] isn't bound by that,
[01:24] >> right? You know what I mean? So, so if
[01:26] if if I have an employee who's suddenly
[01:28] posting about some hateful rhetoric
[01:30] toward a particular group, ethnic group
[01:33] or whatever, I can say, "Sorry, we don't
[01:36] want you here. Post whatever you want. I
[01:37] can't stop you, but I can stop you from
[01:39] coming into my office from now on."
[01:41] >> So, so how does that play into being an
[01:45] atwill state? So, Utah's an atill
[01:47] employment state, right? So my
[01:49] understanding is you can be let go at
[01:51] any time for any reason or no reason at
[01:54] all.
[01:54] >> Yes. And and Utah is maybe not
[01:56] particularly unusual about that. But
[01:58] yes, Utah they can say I mean you can
[02:00] fire an employee because their socks
[02:02] don't match one day. And I'm not I mean
[02:03] that's it's terrible. But Utah is takes
[02:07] at will to a to an entirely new level.
[02:09] Now some employers including government
[02:13] employers have uh what's called the you
[02:17] know a merit system where you have some
[02:19] level of protection. Teachers have a you
[02:21] know a you you become uh tenured and
[02:25] then you have some level of protection
[02:26] or if you have an employment contract
[02:28] you can be fired if you violate the
[02:30] terms of the contract. But otherwise,
[02:32] like you say, we're we're at will here
[02:34] in Utah and and and even government
[02:37] employees and some of these other groups
[02:38] that I'm talking about often have a
[02:40] probationary period where you are you
[02:42] can be terminated for any reason at all.
[02:44] >> Well, Utah law newly changed. I think
[02:46] either this last legislative session or
[02:48] the one before changed even tenure. So,
[02:51] people with tenure can also be let go.
[02:53] Now, um it's it's interesting, Ray. And
[02:56] one of the one of the articles that I
[02:58] looked at today for the Utah Policy
[03:00] Newsletter, this one is from Reuters,
[03:01] and this one says, "Morn Charlie Kirk
[03:05] properly or else." And and then the
[03:07] subhead really is saying, "Look, they're
[03:09] saying you you have to uh you can expect
[03:13] that we will either sue you into
[03:15] oblivion or we're going to get you fired
[03:17] from your job, right? We're going to dox
[03:19] your house." I mean, there there are
[03:21] things where people are online scouring
[03:25] uh for information for people who are
[03:27] not quote unquote supportive enough of
[03:29] Charlie Kirk's passing.
[03:30] >> Yeah. And so it would seem to me that if
[03:32] you want to I mean, why why chime in at
[03:35] all? I mean, you can you and if you do
[03:37] chime in, recognize that there are
[03:39] certain things you might be doing that
[03:41] are at will. There may be certain
[03:43] organizations you're involved in, your
[03:45] employer, uh your marriage. I mean,
[03:48] there are certain things you might be
[03:49] doing where the other party says,
[03:50] "Sorry, I don't I don't want to be
[03:52] associated with you anymore."
[03:53] >> So, one Utah uh not Utah, I'm so sorry.
[03:56] One US lawmaker
[03:59] um said that anyone who quote ran their
[04:01] mouth with their smart alec hatred
[04:04] celebrating the murder of that beautiful
[04:05] young man needs to be banned from all
[04:07] platforms forever. So, he's one that
[04:10] wants to ban people from accessing
[04:12] social media for the rest of their
[04:13] lives, which you just create another
[04:15] profile. I'm so sorry, Mr. a lawmaker.
[04:18] Um, and then other ones are proposing
[04:20] that Kirk's critics be deported or sued
[04:24] into penury, right, which I assume means
[04:27] poverty,
[04:28] >> right? Yes.
[04:29] >> It's a fancy British word. Thanks so
[04:31] much. Um, it's just it's really it's
[04:33] really interesting to me to see how much
[04:37] this is going on, right? It's going
[04:39] after I I think I saw the last I saw was
[04:42] there were like 40,000 names on a list
[04:44] of people that they're going after for
[04:45] retribution.
[04:46] >> Yeah. And and what I I see some of these
[04:49] people are posting and it makes me
[04:50] cringe because it'll start with it's
[04:53] really horrible what happened to Charlie
[04:54] Kirk, but here's what he did. In other
[04:58] words, it's not that it wasn't that
[05:00] horrible. Well, I don't know how you how
[05:02] you can put any spin on a murder other
[05:04] than it was
[05:06] >> it's so sad. the worst thing you could
[05:07] it's it's just it's terrible and so you
[05:11] don't agree with some of his comments.
[05:13] >> Did that contribute?
[05:15] >> Well, but that is that is that the fault
[05:17] of him,
[05:18] >> right? But is that is that now saying
[05:20] that you can't disagree with anybody
[05:22] now? And we do have a lawmaker who has
[05:24] said this is another Washington lawmaker
[05:27] um I think he's from Oklahoma saying
[05:29] it's it's not a crime to disagree with
[05:32] somebody's opinion. It's not a crime to
[05:34] disagree with that. But if you are at
[05:37] risk of losing your job if you disagree
[05:39] publicly, right, you can say, "I I'm so
[05:43] sad." And you know, Walllet didn't
[05:44] always agree. I understand that. I I get
[05:46] that. I understand that. But
[05:48] >> but they're doing more than that.
[05:49] They're highlighting what he said in a
[05:51] way that makes it appear that
[05:53] >> sometimes they're just quoting his his
[05:56] own comments back. And that's that's
[05:58] where you get to for my questions,
[05:59] right, for First Amendment. I think a it
[06:02] has a real chilling effect on people
[06:04] saying I can't share now because I'm at
[06:08] risk of losing my job and then does that
[06:10] make the echo chamber even worse
[06:12] >> right the thing is you don't have a
[06:14] right to do your job you know what I
[06:17] mean that's what at will so you you do
[06:18] have a right uh to not go to prison or
[06:21] to jail and so you would you wouldn't be
[06:22] jailed for your first amendment comments
[06:25] unless they're slanderous or something
[06:26] like that but your job I mean your
[06:29] employer is like hey I I can't afford to
[06:31] have you work for me anymore because of
[06:33] comments you made that are going to
[06:34] affect my business. I don't want you
[06:36] here anymore. Even even MSNBC saying,
[06:39] >> "Yeah,
[06:39] >> you know, we we just don't need the
[06:41] grief." Uh Matthew Dow and he almost
[06:44] certainly had an employment contract,
[06:46] but there may be something in there that
[06:47] says if you if you bring disparagement
[06:49] or, you know, public contempt to the
[06:52] network, we can terminate you and they
[06:54] may feel like he crossed that line.
[06:56] >> Yeah. It's just for me it's an
[06:57] interesting discussion on the limits of
[06:59] the first amendment and um I will say
[07:02] it's not limited to this Charlie Kirk
[07:06] situation. There have been of course
[07:08] you've seen this over and over and over
[07:11] with the Israel Gaza situation. Um I
[07:14] think we see it with young people who
[07:16] are graduating from college. their
[07:18] advice to make sure your social media
[07:21] content has been scoured so that your
[07:25] potential employer is not seeing you
[07:27] partying it up, right? Holding a a drink
[07:30] in your hand and looking like you're
[07:32] inebriated, right? Intoxicated. That's
[07:34] one of the issues, too. So, we know
[07:36] employers go look at social media right
[07:38] now. We know that people have have lost
[07:41] their jobs for taking a stance on the
[07:44] Israel Gaza conflict, right? So, there's
[07:46] different ways where this can show up.
[07:49] >> Yeah. And then we're seeing a Fox News
[07:52] uh reporter, Brian Kilme making a
[07:55] comment that uh the homeless people
[07:57] should be executed. And I don't even
[07:59] know what context you would say that,
[08:00] but he he
[08:01] >> we're going to talk about that in a
[08:02] coming up segment. But yeah,
[08:04] >> you know, lethal injection.
[08:06] >> Yeah. What's his employer going to do as
[08:08] a response to that? That's another
[08:09] example. I guess
[08:10] >> they did not fire him. I will say that.
[08:12] Well,
[08:13] >> so look, again, it's an ongoing
[08:15] conversation about First Amendment and
[08:18] and and I'll I'll say just looking at
[08:21] the peaceuilding comments and looking at
[08:24] these organizations and trying to get
[08:27] people to ratchet down the heat, maybe
[08:29] sometimes you don't post it,
[08:31] >> right? Yeah.
[08:32] >> Maybe you just don't post it,
[08:33] >> right? I mean, or I tell people this
[08:36] before you make a post like that, you
[08:38] know, write it,
[08:39] >> but before you post it, go take a walk,
[08:43] you know, wait a couple of hours, you
[08:44] know, run it by a friend. I I sometimes
[08:46] do that with my wife when I'm angry at
[08:48] somebody. I'm like, "Honey, will you
[08:49] just read this before I hit something?"
[08:50] >> Yeah, exactly.
[08:51] >> And she will.
[08:52] >> I remember in my early blogging days, it
[08:54] was super funny because there was this
[08:56] meme, this cartoon that went around that
[08:58] said, "No, honey, I can't come to bed.
[09:01] Someone on the internet is wrong."
[09:02] Right.
[09:03] >> Yes. You can you cannot you cannot spend
[09:06] your time doing that. You just can't.
[09:07] Sometimes you just have to let it go.
[09:09] >> And we've all hit send and we hadn't
[09:12] done that or given a comment, right?
[09:14] Yes. No. No timeouts.
