Charlie Kirk and Buck Angel Debate Transgenderism, Pornography, and Sexual Anarchy in America

[Music] welcome Charlie Kirk and Buck Angel thank you for coming tonight's topic is going to be transgenderism in America you guys each have a few minutes to give your opening statements I'll start with Charle okay uh first thanks for joining um I'm not going to take the entire time um I think it's pretty simple my viewpoint I think there's only two genders and I have sympathy for people uh that suffer from gender dysphoria um and compassion and I think we'll explore that together um and uh you know transgenderism if you will presupposes that there are two genders and I look forward to like learning your perspective on all of that um but it's a serious problem and I think based on things you've said will actually have some common ground on children in education and the entire kind of transitioning movement that's happening right now because a lot of people have regret after undergoing that irreversible surgery um but yeah my position is pretty clear um your chromosomal makeup is very important um I believe we should be grounded in biological and material reality um and you know I believe that gender and sex are directly related and so I know I have more time to use but I'm going to allow our guests to use that time up right on first off thanks for having me I really appreciate debates and I really appreciate these convers ations because they will help us move forward so so I'm I'm pretty much on board with a lot what you said there I do believe in sex I believe in biological sex I am a biological female who decided that I felt male and wanted to look male and live in the world as male and as you see I pretty much look like a man you pull it off but I am not a biological man so I am a biological female so that being said that should also be understood in the sense that I am not trying to change biology what I'm trying to change here is a perspective that some people don't feel the way they were born to feel so what I'm trying to say is that yes biological sex is real and it's you cannot change that but what you can change is an appearance to look a certain way to walk the world as a happier person so I do believe that gender is something that can be performed where I do not believe that sex is a performative space okay so that leads me to our first question and you guys kind of answered this a little bit but are gender and sex two different things and I'll start with you so gender and sex are two different things as far as I'm concerned and why why I say that is because sex you cannot change your biological sex that is not possible to do that I'm proof of that if you did my chromosomal test or all that it will come back as a biological female what I did change is my gender and the way I look and the way I perform to the world so I think this tends to be a lot of the problem what what the rest of I I would say the trans activists who I I don't really align with trans activism this day these days because I will say that I cannot change my biological sex but I can change the way I look to the world so the this is where I think that we're running into a problem and why people don't understand what I did as a thing to change to change and save my life where I believe today in the new transgender world we are saying that biolog biology doesn't exist and anyone can be a woman and or man and those things and that's not true I do not believe that so I believe on some level gender and biological sex can be separated though I do understand why people like yourself or other people in the world don't understand that those things can be separated and that they are the same thing so you're a splinter against some of the transgender movements that we're seeing right 100% I am yeah so like the idea that men can become pregnant is not true and why I will say that is yes the kind of man that can become pregnant happens to be a man like me which again I'll go back to tell you is a biological woman the only people that can get pregnant are biological women so anything other than that you're lying it's a total lie so yeah just so I understand how you describe yourself yes you're um and I and I'm not trying to be cruel you're wearing a costume is that that's right that's right now now some trans people will be very offended by that I am not offend I'm not trying to offend you no I know you're not and I actually that's what I I that's why I'm sitting here my friend because I know that you want to have the discussion and maybe you want to understand me doesn't mean that I might change your mind all I care about is respect that's all I care about and seeing that I'm trying to participate in the world now what I'm going to tell you is there are people in the trans Community who are not participating in the world and they're creating lies and they're creating deceit in order for me a person like myself not to be able to move forward to the world and then people like yourself arguing wait a minute trans people aren't real or I don't know if that's how you feel but I see where you're coming from and you're saying what's Happening Here why are we why are we denying biology that is something I will not be a part of because if I wasn't a biological female I wouldn't be a trans person right right yeah so that's refreshing to hear because I'm kind of feel like I'm living in the land of the insane sometimes right so do I which okay so now that's a weird space for us yeah so we're both we both agree with that so I guess you know and again with the potential of stepping on landmines here I might be in precise of my my my language is is it then the right thing to transition right because the data shows High suicide rates regret people that say they want to detransition and again I'm not trying to say you made a mistake that would be you know uh again kind of harsh of me but what I would ask though is you look at all this data in front of you 20% of trans youth attempt suicide in 2020 I'm sure you might say it's because of bullying and other factors but we can explore that um but is that the right move just because you feel something should you do it that's right that's a great question so again I can't I don't speak for a whole Community right I speak for somebody who transitioned 29 years ago okay I didn't just transition yesterday I did it in a time when we didn't even have what we have today right and I did it in a time where people thought I was a creepy weirdo freak and people tried to shut it down and people would not help me and somehow I found a way to transition medically which means that I started taking testosterone I was the very first person to do that in Los Angeles take test and my doctor called me a guinea pig he actually called me a guinea pig because he didn't know what he was doing and he had no clue but he was willing to try to help me find this space and then I operated on myself which I removed my breast so that I had a more male looking physique and then through that I just decided that I wanted to look and live male so so that being said I think the problem here is that I'm a different type of trans person I'm a transsexual person so tell me the difference so the difference now today we have transgender which is an umbrella term for different kinds of people like non-binary trans masculine FTM there's all these different kinds of queer queer whatever there's just they're making all these these things up which is fine I want to say that that's but that does not represent me and so what happened I had a I had like what I like to call a sex change even though that's not possible it's what we called it so I wanted to look I want to be you I want to look and be a man but I'm not like you I'm a different kind of man that was the whole point of me transition right so but I guess the the moral question is should you just always do what you want to do so that going back to that question no I do not believe you should always do what you want want to do if it in the long run is going to hurt you rather than help now me it helped me I'm a successful person in the world I was I attempted suicide I was a drug addict I was homeless I was prostituting I was doing all of these things to survive as a female but I couldn't survive that way now as a man I live an amazing beautiful life and isn't that what most people want in the world no sure I I would I would and you know with the risk of calling in an exception because I think we could explore that further and I think there would be other issues is that um there is a massive question of when when do you restrain what you want for what might be good right and so let me just ask you a question I'm just curious you were at a point where I could not survive as a female in a female costume is that is that correct that's exactly right that there there was nothing at your dispos so so I would challenge that um from a spiritual and also pragmatic way again with the risk of not actually living through that I I I refuse to accept the premise the only way that one could deal with it is through sure castration sure I I can understand how you would think that because you don't live it no for sure and I I that's why I said the risk of stepping on that and again I don't think every trans person is the same they're not and I'm going to go back to what you said earlier de-transitioning okay big movement oh my God as a transsexual man it makes me sick to my stomach to see this I never thought of that ever the minute I transitioned I never looked back and my life only got better so I start to look at why are young these are all young women women mostly right so young girls biological women who have decided to do what I did right which is to take testosterone masculinize themselves have Top surgery and then within sometimes 6 months to a year are like uhoh I made a mistake I'm going to tell you exactly why that's happening we have not put mental health care in the equation to transition so what we have is called self ID you could today say I'm a trans I'm a woman and I want to transition you don't have to go to any therapy you don't have to see a doctor you can go on the internet and get your hormones and you can happily be on your way so but let me ask you I mean as someone who's an outspoken member and I know you say you're not part of the community but of this decision yeah I mean don't you think that you have normalized this yes on some yes I have for a reason because there are people like me don't don't think that there are not people like me what percentage do you think that is very small percentage this that are like you that are like me a very that's why I'm that's why I'm sitting here talking I'm I don't think there is as many as we have today and that's why we have such a huge population of D transitioners I saw a group of 25,000 correct 25,000 so so does it concern you though that that your advocacy over the last couple years I mean I guess do you have any regret you're like yes maybe I lured people into this where they didn't really know what they were signing up for thank you for saying that and I I I I really live with that you know because I think to myself did I do something to create the space that we're in now and then I have to say no I did not if people took my words out of context that's that's not my and you know what I think that's very fair you can't you can't hold just an advocate accountable for everything try to do that to me all the time I of course and I truly try to live my life very authentically if that makes sense where I say look this is who I am this has saved my life I'm a I'm a for a lack of a better word normal person on some level so what you're saying is that before the actual like action of surgery happens which is very um serious irreversible you would say you first have to check a lot of boxes of therapy and all this it should be easy on demand or immediate No it should not my friend and that is one of the reasons probably the number one reason we have so many people who are saying uhoh I made a mistake mental look I have a mental disorder I don't care what anybody says I have an actual mental disorder called gender dysphoria and when you take gender dysphoria off the table which the trans Community has done now and says you don't need dysphoria to be trans wait a minute so you don't need cancer to have cancer like what are we doing but let me ask you one last thing thing and so it's just a thought exercise which is is the Surge and for you it was but generally should it become something that is so exceedingly rare for example just because you want something isn't it isn't always right so like a someone who has anorexia you wouldn't give them liposuction I hope not right they would be demanding it right that's right that's right they go to their doctor I feel fat and so sometimes your mind can actually be misleading what would be right for your body that's right that's mental health right there so why are we not going to the pinpointing the problem okay or the the situation of trans is mental health I think that's right and if we are not dealing with it as a mental health problem and we're just saying you know who you are that's what's going to cause the problem right there I'm just curious do you think that if when you were just a bi just a biological female not you know kind of showing yourself as a male do you think that if you had therapy and counseling do you think that would have been potentially helpful before surgery or do you think not so you know again I I'm 59 years old right so I the world was different different in the ' 70s I I grew up in the 60s and 70s and I was I was a really very um sad child I really wanted to be a boy since I was a little kid my parents raised me as Buck I was totally I tomboy right they called it a tomboy right so so that being said no one knew I was a trans kid and I don't even think there are trans kids speaking of kids yes told you you don't want to cross it so let's move on to the next question do you think schools should teach children about the option to transition to a different sex why do you think this is being heavily pushed by some school districts Across America it is really upsetting to me to see stuff like that happen in the school now again what what age group are we talking about elementary school middle school elementary school okay no I'm just going to say no right there Elementary School no we we should not be teaching kids about these things in a system where they're already just kind of growing up and learning things right and they need to stay focused yeah kids are going to say they're trans or they're going to say I feel like a boy or I feel like a girl or I feel like an elephant or that's very normal behavior for a child but to all of a sudden say when a child says they're a girl or a boy to immediately pinpointed as trans with no mental health care or no system because there's no system to put them through right now they immediately want to put them on puberty blockers that's right so as a person who doesn't believe every child says exactly what that child is feeling or knows I disagree with that 100% % because what you're doing is medicalizing a child from the age of 8 years old which means that child will be medicalized for the rest of their life so I'm I'm just curious which is you know you've been an advocate in or an just an outspoken person this in this um space is that it seems that your position on this is a vast minority position yes wh why do you think that is oh it's difficult I think because I'm older and I think because I'm a little more grounded about who and what I am and I think I went through a lot to get where I'm at and like said there are most definitely young people who feel like I do I don't doubt that in any way shape or form but I think the equation doesn't equal to what I did which is which should saved my life is to give I'm going to keep going back to the same thing mental healthare right you cannot just take something at face value now adults are doing it all the time I'm I'm trans and I'm going to transition and I'm going to do I don't know if we can argue that with an adult an adult can make their own choice yeah I I think that's I think that's right I do think but if you have if you have a 14-year-old that has irreversible surgery and it is irr ible by the way so there's an argument that says this the an argument that says puberty blockers are irreversible that's not true that they are reversible or irreversible they are irreversible I agree totally because the re you're blocking puberty every person in the world has puberty not just trans people so once you start blocking puberty what happens there the your development yeah okay your development I think we're going to probably have the same points on many things here yeah I mean I I look you self-identified that it it is a mental issue I I I get I'll be very honest attacked mercilessly by people by saying that gender dor is even a thing right okay that's fine sure and so but you you openly admit that um I guess here's a here's a just a general question is that the trans population is exploding with young people I know does does that concern you yes it does and so so that of course we do because look I don't care if a kid wants to say they're black blue green an El I don't care what I care about is medical transition okay so what I mean by that is the kid wants to idea as a trans person and go through school wearing boy clothes and dressing like a boy go right do it my friend because you'll probably grow out of it later on but when a kid starts going and getting what we call Top surgery at 20 years old and starts putting hormones in their body every piece of that equation is irreversible I I'm let's say today I decide that I want to go back to living as a woman too late I'm going to be an ugly woman first off secondly what am I going to do with my breasts I'm going to have to go get breasts uh in implants I'm going to have to go through a whole psychological space I don't even think I would make it to be honest with you so that's what people need to see and that's why I appreciate you having the conversation with me because just because I'm trans doesn't mean I agree with everything that's going on in the community so like for example if I if if you were a typical transactors which you're not I would ask the question what is a man that's right and the answer would be whatever I wanted right right and your answer is actually well no it's XY chromosomes and all that so right um yes so I guess let me ask you a question why is it that so many trans youth try to commit suicide well okay a lot of people try to commit suicide so if you're just going to disproportionate though on well I don't know in the LGBT community I can tell you gay people try to kill themselves at a high level lesbian people try to kill themselves at a high level bisexual people do the same thing I don't know if the trans Community is actually bigger than the rest of the LGBT community so I'm going to say that I disagree with that on some level because again statistics well where are you getting the statistics from right I can show you statistics that probably are different than your statistics so well yeah to be honest they're actually from transgender advocacy groups well there you go it's coming from the actual group what about group what about a group that doesn't have anything to do with the transgender Community why don't they do that study so so are you implying that the transgender groups have vested profit interests to make it seem like it's a bigger problem than it is on some level yes I am 100% And I don't all for being cynical about and I don't disagree I was suicidal I tried to commit suicide two times I was put in a mental hospital thank you my friend but I'm not saying that it doesn't exist 100% it exists but what I'm also trying to say is just because a kid says they're suicidal does not necessarily mean transitioning them will stop the suicide attempts we no that that's exactly right and so so that that's where I think the other side whatever side that is and it's like all us The Advocates are saying hold on if the surgery happens all the problems will go away but that's not true I can show you that through detransitioners read every D transitioner story I cry I actually cry when I read those things I'm like how are we letting this happen it's why I'm sitting in the seat today because I don't want to see that happen it saved my life my friend I here living a the most amazing life I've ever lived that's what I want the world to see but I did it because I went through a program I went through a system I didn't just say I'm trans and I got surgery and I moved on well and look I'm not one to say you're wrong with that by the way if someone if I had a guest here and they said you know Charlie I just decided to only eat carrots and it saved my life like okay then you know you know what's best for you right I suppose what we're talking about is societ andc prescription so you would say like for example the law that's being proposed in California that allows sexual reassignment surgery no parental consent taxpayer funded big mistake big mistake big mistake not not it's not the money okay again it's not the money for me it's more the fact that they're not listening to people like myself who are older more grounded understand what's H even even there are actual trans doctors who are disagreeing with this but our voices are so low in in this space that we don't get heard because then I think well what is everybody getting out of this why do they want so many people to transition you know you know the answer is the pharmaceutical companies make a ton of money on this it always comes back to the money fiser and pharmaceutical compan to make a ton of money on hormone box you know I read in market watch which is what a a website for for for stock right it actually says in there invest in trans surgery it's going to be a five billion unbelievable to me I'm like hold up people wait a minute here I am not a commodity and I am not that that space that is disgust we are literally zero zer .5% of the population really think about that trans people are so small how are we so powerful in the conversation right now and how are we saying there are so many trans people how are we doing this and why are what's the agenda attached to that so do you think that do you think more people are then becoming kind of captured into the transgender lifestyle uh because they're is a campaign to recruit them or to persuade them they actually might be transgender so both I think on some level social media plays a huge huge part go just go to Tik Tok and you can watch youngsters these are young kids like 14 15 years old having surgeries and dancing around showing it off we never did that when I where I came from you you you HD it on some level and you just wanted you think that's better to hide it on some level because I just want to be a man I don't want to be I'm not a trans person I'm a man like you're not trying to just be an activist to persuade more people to no I I want to it's again I'm always going to go back to the same thing it saved my life I want to be a man and I want to walk the world as a man that's a transexual person I want to be part of what you're doing you know even though I'll never be you are there inherent advantages to being a man are there inherent advantages to being a woman and Charlie I'll let you start um well I mean I I I think that there's female privilege right now in America and I've said that for a while um men are more likely to die at work more likely to die of drug overdoses more likely to go to war uh and die for the country more likely to commit suicide more likely to be homeless um women comprise most college graduates most master's degrees most Doctorate Degrees women are less likely to go bankrupt they're less likely to die in car accidents um they're less likely to do all these sorts of different things um and we are seeing an emasculation of the American male um but yeah there are there are advantages depending on you know what your particular skill set whatever your passion might be for example it is just biologically easier to be a laborer as a man than it is a female um and women are also wired to be nurturers and teachers more so than um Brick Layers or you know Marines right right well that's true and I think what you're what you're but that being said I lived half my life as a woman so I have actual experience of living in the world as a woman and I can say now as a man holy moly my life has changed I get so many different things I can walk through the door and have a lot more you're not going to experience that because you were really born into that you walk into it and you don't ever even see that so give me an example of so I'll give you an example let's talk about dinner and we're going out to dinner and I I'm always getting the check now I never got the check before you had to pay I have to pay as a man that means it's harder to be a man on some level it's more expensive it's more expensive to be a man there are different there are different ups and downs of that where's the advantage to that so the advantage well the advantage for me is that people see me as a man so for it's important that you understand you to pay for they expect me to pay for it so I pass that privileg for me that's privilege it means that they see me as a man see you see that that's a big deal for me now going back to the statistic of being male and female so I think that men it's easier on some level to walk through the world as a man than it is to walk through the world as a woman I mean I I can just say for me it it's just easier for me and I see more advantage and more privilege that I get to just be this male and not be questioned on certain situations where as a woman I would be pushed to the side or I wouldn't get to have the conversation I don't think that's right well I mean that's okay you you don't have to and you won't have that same experience that I have no that's definitely true I'll never have that same that experence but does the data compel you based on income levels graduation you know suicide I think women are are definitely being being doing better 100% there's no doubt about that we can't argue why do you think that is well I think because women are are speaking up for themselves I think women are speaking up and saying wait a minute here we're part of the population we should be able to do these kind of things and women I think before didn't get the opportunity to speak up for themselves where I think now they get to speak up for themselves and men are respecting that I do sexism goes both ways right me be sex against a woman but I mean you look at Family Guy or The Simpsons what's the archetype when you think of a regular Suburban man well right overweight Dum clumsy right unable to get their thoughts together right sitting at home and drinking beer but that's not true no it's not true but that's what's the caricature of most women on television career oriented boss babe private investigator Queen Latifa you know what I mean so you kind of like you balance those two things and and that plays out in certain ways which I think is you know the emasculation emasculation of the American male well you on some level there is that and and because I'm I you know when I when I transitioned I wanted to be very hyper masculine right I really went for that masculinity I really wanted people to see me as the why why was I so obsessed with being this very masculine sort of space which I do agree on some level we are being attacked as masculine men I get attacked all the time from the trans Community you're heteronormative I don't even know what that means heteronormative or I'm you know I guess that I'm playing into this role playing of being a man but to me that's not role playing to me it's what I feel the most comfortable being and how I want to walk the world but I do think masculinity is under attack on some level as a bad thing and so I don't think masculinity is a bad thing at all I think so let me ask you when you identified as a woman um and I would argue You' never stopped being a woman but that's again not trying to offend you by saying that um was when you were trying when you were feminine were you just unhappy oh God I was you know and I was very much a very Butch woman right and I and I identified as a gay woman and I was an athlete you know that very stereotypical athletic Butchy girl so I was very unhappy and because as a child my parents really did raise me as a boy they very much were okay with me being a tomboy because pretty much everyone thinks you're going to grow out of it right and eventually you'll just be a girl and so I tried to be a girl I was a fashion model I traveled the worlds as a female fashion model I did all it just something in my gut just was not there and I did not feel comfortable when people would say oh you're so beautiful or wow what a great woman you are I just was like uh it just it just rubbed me the wrong way it's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't really experience that dysphoric space do you think so let's say that next person exists now right and do you think that there is the breakthroughs through therapy or psychological that might have prevented you from having to go through like do you think there might have been some repressed childhood issues that could have been addressed Poss versus a surgical issue possibly but you know I didn't I didn't do my surgery until my early late 20s early 30s so it wasn't that I was just going into it I did 10 years of th world was a lot different a lot I did 10 years of therapy so you would go to therapist and like I'm not trying to pry into your private life and you would say like look I act I think I'm a man I want to be a man yes and every therapist would say no you're not you're a very masculine woman every single one until I finally found a therapist who who was brand new and I said to her I sat in that office for five for five times I would go there so like scared to say it because I knew they were going to shut me down finally when I said you know I feel like a man and it was like magic she said to me I know and then that she's the one who basically helped me try to figure out how can I live in the world as a man 29 years ago so I do think on some level people like me are real we are look at me but I also think on some level there is something today that's happening to push too many people into this space that should not be pushed into this space what are your thoughts on pornography does B does porn desensitize should it be banned Al together do you believe it has a negative effect on relationships is there such a thing as a positive effect to be had by porn consumption in society and I'm going to let Charlie start with this one um yeah porn is awful I mean it's a poison it's arsenic it's a cancer on society um I do want to give you an opportunity to introduce your background in that if that's okay before I go any further so yes I started my career in the pornography business so I was the very first transsexual man to are you still active in that industry I produce products now I don't produce pornography I produce uh Toys what we call sex toys or products that help people kind of connect to their B do you have any regret of your time in in the pornography industry at all no not at all not at all and so I think here's where we're going to probably have different opinions about that space I personally I make adult entertainment so this this is where this is the problem so in the world now we have What's called the internet which screwed up everything not only pornography but it gives a access where access should not be and so now kids have access to pornography and so as an adult I think as an adult I should be able to make whatever I make and I should be able to make it for you or whoever wants to watch it as adults we're consenting it's totally if you don't want to watch it don't watch it if you do you have the opportunity to do that now for me the problem is kids and the problem is the youth looking at these things as sex education or as a means and a way to sort of understand how to do things and I don't agree with that and I do not think pornography should be accessible to youngsters at all at all do you think it's a moral problem uh moral I'm I don't think so what I think is that it's a problem to do with money again it comes back to money so the more money these places make they don't have any more morals and they don't have any more space because they're just wanting to make money and I that's really what pornography is about pornography is about making money that's all it is I'm in that industry I understand it it's all about the dollar nothing else but you what you just said is not realistic 14 and 15y olds are accessing whatever content you publish that's what I'm saying and I don't think that's okay I do not think that's okay and I talk to my industry all the time about how can we build a space where children because 14 and 15 are children should not be accessing but like let's say even 19-year-olds that's still to me a child on some level but it's not they're they're an adult they're an adult they can make their own choices look and I'm going to but I'm going to be very honest like with someone who's actually struggled with watching pornography before like the fact you worked in the pornography industry I I look at you as like a sexual drug dealer that's okay yeah I understand that you're producing content that will kill people I I don't agree with that depression isolation but they probably already had depression and isolation prior to the pornography I could I'm going to say this as like from a personal perspective it destroys lives it does well yeah so do a lot of things so does alcohol so do so so do cigarettes but this is a very particular let's just focus on this right so but you go into to it knowing that the people that we be consuming in will be less likely to be faithful to their wives that's not true that is not true all absolutely is true the stats around pornography are unbelievable but I can show you stats that show that's not true number one number two those people already have that inside of them so I know many people who consume porn who have no issues at all and are perfectly okay no issues that you know but this goes back to should you do what you feel is right and the answer is no if you're an adult I think you should be able to make choices that really reflect to your own space right so that's why I said trans transitioning if you're an adult who's transitioning I'm going to tell you you should slow down a little bit and you should take your time but as an adult that's all I can say to you as an adult so you think if an adult is addicted to pornography no problem well addiction again so that word Addiction really is very powerful and it can mean a lot of things what does addiction means you're going on there 24/7 and you're looking at it and you can't get off of it and and once a day twice a day 500 so so that being said how many people within that space and is it men is it women both when you shoot the film you know it could ruin a 16-year-old's life it's like when you create a fentel pill you know it could kill somebody well that's that is a whole other argument that being said no I don't think that when I make pornography I've had so many people tell me thank you so so wait hold on what good does making pornography do like what what yeah that's a great question so for myself I can only speak about my own work for myself what I did is I created a space where to celebrate my body sexually I was not sexually connected to my body which is hurtful for me and I could not have relationships I could not do any of that the pornography actually helped me connect to my body make me feel very uh handsome or beautiful in my body and felt needed in my body I have lots of trans people and outside of the trans commity tell me thank you for your work it really validated understand we quickly went from you had have surgery to survive now you had have sex on cam or survive no it wasn't for survival you said happiness self survival I said no it made me feel better about myself and it made other people feel better about themselves so the thing is this you have the opportunity to watch porn or not watch porn that's how look at it sort of yes of course but when you're 17 and you get addicted to something from an industry that towards or 18 or 19 or 20 or married couples that get targeted with these things and I get the thousands of emails from our listeners of young men that are struggling with these things they struggle I know Millions but it's the IND it's the industry that normalizes and and the numbers are unbelievable well that's but why but why because we've normalized pornography because people produce the films not only that but there there's something innate inside of us that wants to see sexual images right that's that's real I agree we shouldn't do everything we want to do okay right that was good I'll give you that one right so so so do you know what we call civilization restraining ourselves from doing the things we always want to do okay that's fair civilization but at the same time pornography makes some people happy now it doesn't make everyone happy no I'm going to disagree with you so let me ask you a question are heroin addicts happy yeah I know some heroin addict are totally happy 100% yes I do they totally know what they do they use the drug they're totally functioning they move forward I don't agree with it but they do it they love it they're totally into think the vast majority of heroin addicts are not the vast majority okay so that's good now we're talking vast majority heroin addicts not are totally slung out on the street horrible horrible heroin and pornography attack the brain exactly the same same dopamine manipulation same same fake rushes of endorphins endorphins same sort of rush to have to find more extreme so does Fitness Fitness does the same thing so you going to the gym every day and like the difference is you get healthier and that's not necessarily true no you know uhuh that's not true at all you're making an argument that going to the gym no I'm say be as harmful as no because you asked me heroin then pornography and now I'm using Fitness as a dopamine when something is giving you that dopamine wrench you can't stop Health dopamine no because then you start using steroids and then you start trying to make yourself that much bigger let's let's talk in World reality yeah do you really think America has a fitness addiction problem oh my god of course they do you think we have a bigger Fitness addiction problem not bigger that's not what I said it's not even in the same universe it is a definite problem I think people do become okay it's not even close but that being said I disagree with you on the we have obesity problem in our country we don't have a cross doesn't mean those people aren't going to the gy okay again so but I'm asking you so the argument you're making pornography can make people happy in the moment therefore moral good well well the moral my morals and your morals could be different morals aren't just moral yeah that's that's we have different morals no no no hold up no we don't well I'll prove it to you want me to prove it to you okay sure you don't think kids should watch pornography no I don't think kid should because I don't think it's for children why because I think that children need to learn about sex through a way that is why protect children they're humans well because children need guidance why do you say that where do you get it from because I'm a parent there you go that's where your morality comes from Material reality but it doesn't mean that we have the same morals on everything else the point is this is that we actually accept very similar types of moral premises yes objective truth yes and guess what showing people having sexual intercourse is really bad for people in society it just is well that's because you had a bad experience but I didn't not just me but but I don't have a bad experience with it 82% of young men are addicted to pornography and but why is it men and not women but there's a fair amount of women as well but nowhere near the amount of if I have to dive into it men of higher testosterone they look at sexual engagement Visual and physical but also men are actually okay with watching porn or having sex because we're taught as men men are taught to be much more promiscuous much more open around sex women are not taught that women are taught not to talk about sex women are taught not to masturbate women are taught all the things that you as a man are taught that it's okay to be sexual that it's okay to do these things so that's why I think porn is more pinpointed towards men than it is to women they make porn for men let me ask you Qui you don't think men are biologically more predisposed to want to see visual stimulation versus I think that's testosterone for sure CU mind Chang it's biology well no it's also testosterone because mind did change through testosterone the way I look at things the way I feel women are not stimulated as much by agree that's pornography but also women are also not not actually told that it's okay to watch these kinds of things they women watching porn is on the increase tremendously that's because they're making more porn for women which is destructive to society in more ways let me let me let me read some of these numbers okay so depression and suicide okay 17% of sex addicts attempt suicide at some point in their life okay okay 17% depression ratios when respondents began watching porn was in the single digits it triples after they start watching for a 200 por 2017 experiment showed that 14% of male students who watch porn more than three times a week reported depression meanwhile 2.8% of students who watch porn less than once a week experience depression that's a that's a multiple Chasm huge and let me tell you why we know this in the biochemical literature neurologically when you start to all of a sudden addict yourself to a fake endorphin rush which because pornography is so graphic it's so real all you're going to want more it's the same as a heroin ad do you know the problem though is with porn it's so abundant that you can go deeper and deeper and deeper and next thing you know it takes three hours for you to just get a little bit of stimulation that's true which creates worse worse marriages weaker families and you say you're a parent I mean I don't know how old your kid is but I can't imagine you would want the kid my kid doesn't know anything about that and I would let my kid know that's what I said to you there are boundaries around children for me but even when they're an adult you don't think it would do damage to them no I don't actually because I have a healthy attitude towards it I think I have a different attitude than than other people do and I do think it's healthy to talk about sex and I do think it's healthy on some level not to get addicted to porn but to even see the pornography I don't think that's a bad thing the addiction is the bad thing so you don't think sex should be sacred in private between two not necessarily show not necessarily so I think that people as adults can make their own choices the point that's a different question in the ideal should sex be sacred and private no I don't think so why because I think that it's a fun thing and I think that you can so we should do we should do fun things no trust me I'm married I got that but the point is that we should do what's fun well we should do what makes us happy should we of course when it comes to what's right well what's right to you is going to be different than what's right for me the so why do we have speed zones outside schools well no we're talking about porn and sex no let me tell you why because we want to protect kids we're we're talking about sex right now we're talking about speed limits no this is important because there's only one truth there's not my truth or your truth who Tru is it it's the truth of the laws of nature and Nature's god of the natural law for example Force equals masstimes acceleration right and an object at rest will stay at rest for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction there's a certain hard wirring to the universe you can't escape it it's part of being sex is natural reality sex is a natural space it is actually something people enjoy doing as two people coming together it is not just about procreation in the ideal that sexual engagement should be protected and conserved and should be sacred so let me ask you a question things that are beautiful should we make them everywhere always and dilute it or protect it for when it's most sacred that's just a general moral question well that just depends on what it is you're talking about I don't think you can say that as a blanket statement of course you can well I don't think so I disagree with that so so for example right so if sex is everywhere doesn't it start to lose its meaning no I don't think that's true at all you think so I think everyone goes into sex with a different attitude and a different way of being I don't believe everyone goes with into sex as it's for this this this and this and I think the same with masturbation people masturbate for different kinds of reasons people have sexual encounters for different people cheat on their wives cheat on their for different Reas that word cheat is there something wrong with being unfaithful to your spouse if it is not within the system of you you and your spouse so if you and your spouse say we have an open relationship and I can go and have sex with whoever I want that's between you and your partner right but I'm talking about just generally morally no cheating I I don't believe in that because you're lying to your partner and I don't believe in lying and deceit do you think pornography makes cheating more abundant or less abundant no I think that again it depends on the person and it depends on the person going at the porn I don't think you can blame porn for all the problems in the world but I'm saying that is a drug to some people to tens of millions the vast majority consumers me but not to me it does not hold me that way it does not control the way I think it does not look at I'll be honest you're it's your livelihood though well not anymore but it was you made you made money off yeah I did make money off it's a business it's an actual business it defined you on some level it did yeah that's how I started my career for sure okay so but the predation of potential people that are innocent so you know making those films that someone who is innocent could lose that innocence in that moment but what is innocence that's a good question what is it you know what innocence is no you're nine-year-old not knowing what porn is that's what innocence is well that's true so that's why I don't make pornography for 9year old doesn't matter you know it still seeps down to them no it does not that's not true that well maybe not 9y- olds 12 year- olds 13y olds 14-year-olds and whose fault is that is that actually my fault it's it's the government's fault a lot of it's a lot it's the system if if a magic wand was waved and all of a sudden all the pornography production was outlawed you would have a lot harder time time as a 14-year-old but the problem with outlawing pornography is what happens it goes underground and it's harder to find oh it is not harder to find it is that is actually not true look at drugs you can actually go on the internet and buy drugs heroin cocaine MDA all of it you can actually get it even though those are illegal drug rates have gone up the more decriminalization has happened in San Francisco that's I believe in decriminalization do you believe the government should ban porn yeah absolutely 100% no I don't yeah I mean look it's the so the society's falling apart children are being prayed on every day um it should I mean a middle ground should be behind age authenticated password protected credit C authorized 25 years or older extremely hard to find ways to get to it but that's not realistic it's not going to pass anytime soon no um but it's just a it's just a broader moral question of something that is so graphic that is so predatory and quite honestly so harmful to humanity if if we're not as a society willing to use our Collective power to try and stop that then I think it explains a lot of our other societal ills well yeah I think everything is about money now so you know of course if it's making money the government is not going to get involved and stop it it's the same that's happening with trans stuff it's making money they're not going to stop it money is what runs this country and pretty much the world so if you look at things what what's going to make money people are not not going to stop it now I definitely have a space where I'm telling you I don't believe that pornography should be so accessible this is a problem I have as a person in that industry it's too accessible and so we as a community in my business need to understand that and we need to step up and be much more responsible for the way we are putting that out there so on some level I'm a conservative pornographer where I do believe it's too accessible on many levels and how do we stop it from being so accessible there are people out there who don't care who just go in the back room and make all kinds of nonsense and put it out on the internet so that I have to fight against those kinds of things so I'm like in a really really weird space where I do believe in pornography as a positive space but at the same time there are bad people in my in my business who are doing things that are hurting people and are not positive so you know I'm in a I'm in a weird and it's the same way I feel about the trans world I'm in a very weird space there where I do believe there are I'll be very honest though it's like saying you know I'm going to keep on bringing heroin across the southern border but I only want people that may you know that all of a sudden a 14-year-old who broke his back is going to use the heroin and to try as a pain supplement and yeah possible and so totally it's that's what I'm saying I'm in a very weird space because as a person I do believe pornography can be positive I also believe it can be negative I'm I'm still you're going to have to build out that argument I well I don't know if we'll ever get there to be honest how can the filming of something that is so sacred and special and the widespread of it somehow not do damage to the brain of the recipient well the people I know who you watch my pornography don't feel that way so I don't really know how to answer that the pornography you're watching and the things that you are talking about are not the same thankfully that's and I could say people that have healed from that that's right and I'll be very honest I have a very hard time and you're you're a nice person and all this I have a very hard time being okay with people in the quote unquote industry sure that have no I understand that done that kind of damage that's okay it doesn't I don't take offense to it at all my friend you're totally entitled to have that opinion I disagree with you and I will continue to do what I do and that's why we sit here because you have a different opinion about what I do in the world and that's okay I I'm not I'm not fearful of it and nor do I'm am I angry at it or do I feel in any way disrespected I don't because I actually value your opinion and I value the fact that that's how you think about it because what that does is to make me think about it so I'm going to think about it in a different way now so does necessar mean I'm going to stop but restraining our impulses MH is what keep civilization together we don't always get to do what we want to do that's true so for example I'd love to sleep 14 hours a day I'm hardwired for it sure me too but I got to get up seven six seven hours I'd love to eat chocolate cake every day and all that can't do that that's right and but so do you want to take chocolate cake off the table that no one can have it is that what you want to do well I would definitely be open to trying to make America eat much healthier but I don't think chocolate cake comes anywhere near to the sort of visceral chemical Blitz Creek that is actually your experience with it horri it's not the data shows it's tens of millions of people if you talk to an average young man out there in an honest setting true they will say they are depressed or anxious or they watch suicidal but they're not H they most the number one feeling after watching pornography done by any psychological data is what regret and shame people why is that why do you think that maybe because they shouldn't be doing it and they know it because are they being told that maybe deep in the human soul they know what they just saw for their consumption but I don't feel that way when I watch it and of my other friends and people that I know don't feel that way you you you got your own way of looking at the world but that's what I'm saying the vast majority way of PE the vast majority of people though feel that kind of Shame people you know and the people you're around feel that way which is the clinical data shows that and that's okay that's what I'm saying not everyone feels that way about pornography and not everyone thinks it should be taken out what we need to do is come to a space to understand why is it doing it to these young men it's true most they tried to do a study and they couldn't even do the study because all the guys had already watched horn so they couldn't even do a study on that's right so I know that I I'm very understanding it attacks the gray matter in your brain why is it so much that way toward towards young men and men why do they feel this need to watch for and and because it's accessible is that is that hard wire to try to look for visual stimulation visual stimulation and it's accessible and also they haven't been taught that it's wrong that it's wrong so there you go because it is wrong on well I don't know if it's wrong for you almost agree that right on dude this this gets into this so Charlie in recent months you have popularized the phrase sexual Anarchy yes first could you define that for the audience and then explain the impact it has on our society yeah so I turned I coined the phrase sexual Anarchy um and actually from my friend Pastor David Engelhart yeah look it's it's sexual activity without restraints so the law as we know it and that's a bad term but let's say rules okay is actually what keeps us free and so you know alcoholics I know alcoholics they're hardly free they do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it they might be fun to use your term term but they're hardly free they become a victim to those vices and devices the same I would argue is in the sexual realm and I'm not trying to be a moralist by any means I admitted you know how this this sort of nonsense damages young people and damaged me but I will say though on a very serious and real level that if a society all of a sudden says we're not going to have virtuous or moral guardrails then we become more depressed unhappier more an I more medicated and more alcohol addicted and so that's a that's kind of a catchall term for basically people saying do whatever you want to do in the sexual domain um and I I'll go back it it robs the innocence of children which you do have a soft spot for based on your commentary but more than anything else I think it creates um a society that decays from within one that cannot control its sexual impulses you know again maybe I'm not really sure about that because I think we have a different experience so my experience is totally different than your experience around pornography and probably because I'm around it more or the people that I am around have a healthy experience with it so maybe we need to start talking about sex in a more healthy way not pornography but sex because sex is natural sex is something people actually it is natural but so it's an impulse and sex should be saved for one person in marriage but that's your own moral way of being not everyone feels that way it doesn't matter how they feel it's it's the ideal it's true but where does that come from where are your morals coming from the laws of nature and nature is God it's the ideal who's God is that a Christian God is it a Jewish god I Believe Christian in the Christian God okay so that's in the moral space of Christianity well it's objectively true I don't want to go too far in the spiritual domain but let's just kind of ask this question which is like do you think in the ideal a monogamous heterosexual relationship is the ideal no I don't what's ideal then whatever makes whatever kind of relationship is ideal so so that being said I don't necessarily believe all heterosexual relationships are the be end all what about gay relationships it's not ideal but I have a lot of great gay friends it's not ideal but it is ideal to me and what about my relationship I'm a biological woman who lives as a man who has a actual biological woman wife and a biological child respectfully not ideal but that's right that's see what I mean that's your idea but my idea is different than yours but I think you could look and you know this deep down you know it's true objectively if a society does not have marriages that are between men and women and having children out of those marriages that Society will unravel and cease to exist well I mean again that's not that's possible in your space but I think looking outside of your space there are so many different ways of being that don't necessarily make them right in your eyes in the eyes I know because so let me ask you let me ask you let me ask you a question is there such thing as absolute truth um not that's a difficult question for me to answer because I'm not really sure that or no no do you believe that absolutely yes then you do believe in absolute truth so was a trick question right on no but I don't believe in absolute so you absolutely believe there's no absolute truth so I think things things there's a Nuance there my friend I think there's a Nuance in everything and I think that we're missing that but there's some things so for example you believe murder is wrong you believe that of course of course of course and wa wait let's just look at Mur what if I'm what if you murdered somebody because you were going to save your life so you know is that murder it's killing not murder okay see so there you go now you just change the difference no no no murder is very murder is taking the life of an innocent for no good def murder and the definition of killing are different of course so if someone tried to come in and tried to murder me and I killed them that would be killing not murder murder would be there's someone in their house I don't like them I want to take them out they never did anything to you it's a different intention so yes but that's not Nuance that's just separate you don't believe of course you don't believe in Murder right yeah and you believe in telling the truth right whatever the truth is everyone's truth is different is it I think so so I mean like can you make up your own phys we already we talking about physics right like you can't make up your own material truth you can't be like driving on the 405 laws of gravity you're suspended I would love that right right but my truth you must be anchored to some absolute truth you have to be well of course now now looking at it like that when you explained it I understand that but at the same time outside of that my absolute truth around marriage or that might be different than your absolute truth around marriage no it might be but the question is what is right so why would there be what is right to me is not the same as what's right for so yeah that's the question right so Ted kazinski thought it was right to send bombs to people he sure did and that was wrong right well in our eyes yes but not in his eyes but he was wrong in our eyes yes he was do you think in objective eyes Ted kazinski was wrong yes okay good so that that's what I'm saying is that there is an objective moral standard eventually so and what I'm saying is that in that objective moral standard includes sexual relations yes so again but then sexual relations come to what you believe in as so sex let me ask you a question though so like pedophilia is it objectively wrong so now we're going back to kids no that's important though because that's debated there's College professors that say there's nothing believe so so let me just start with yes I do not believe in pedophilia I believe it's I'm not accusing you of that I don't think you are and that being said I believe it's an illness I believe it's an actual mental illness that needs to be understood I do not agree with it I don't think it should be understood I think it should be incar no but I think we need to do studies and understand why are people doing this why is this actually happen I have no desire to have sex with a child and hopefully you don't either now that being said I have no desire but I would really under want to know why are these people this way but the point is finally you admit okay that's wrong it is wrong right so there at some point in my in my in my it's wrong but like you just said there are some people who believe it's not wrong right but they are wrong is the point in our eyes they are wrong no but that's the point is that eventually we're going to have to get to objective truth and subjective truth it doesn't matter my eyes versus their eyes it's it's existence right a is a regardless if you think it's being but do you think you can get everyone on board with that no way the humans will never get on board with everything being one thing they will not do that great question is that it doesn't take everyone right and the majority well or or or a reason majority right this is why the American founding was so special is that all 13 colonies they believed in some very certain basic things right that man should be free rights are granted by God separation of powers consent to the Govern there might been some lunatic weirdo in the Hills that was like I want to live under a king it doesn't really matter right but when we when we look at how we formulate laws and we ask morality it really comes down to the question is what is good right what is good so again where you're coming from I and it's not just the Bible it's from the classics it's from Aristotle Plato it's from from the Canon of the West from aquinus from Aus from bacon from Newton all of these amazing Pioneers that built the West articulated a central morality yes that is in our books it's in our movies it's in our existence which is that children are off limits the ideal is one man one woman marriage the that we should try to protect the innocent that courageous exploration is something we should try and that's their morals and it's the morals that's what I'm trying to get no I I don't agree with you they it isn't the morals it's the morals of those specific people other people have different morals right so exactly right so if you go back to the 800s of the Goths they used to murder children and they used to not think it was wrong that is wrong in our eyes that's wrong but in their eyes it isn't wrong that's what I'm trying to say is I agree with pedophilia all those things are wrong but the point is that the overarching laws of the universe don't change just because someone thinks but how are those the overarching all laws of the universe when these are just human men making these laws up so they're not just making them up they are writing them and writing them down where are they getting them from because they're coming together they're coming together as men and having discourse creates that that's right so if you take a prayer medit but another group of people will have different ideas around that but even if they have different the point is that you can look at that and say huh okay as Tech sacrificing children wrong I don't care if they thought it was right I don't I don't care if they thought that it was going to bring back or whatever wrong right Romans that used to you know rape boys wrong right so what I'm saying is that we look at that regardless if you're from Japan or Russia and you have an overarching view of the universe that's right that says there is objective Morality In Their Eyes yes I agree with you all right I'm going to wrap up with this last question um is transgenderism a legitimate thing does it coincide with the natural law or is it a social construct created over time and if so by whom and for what purpose I'll let so that's a great question actually so I'm I'm again I can speak for myself because myself I do believe that I actual