Charlie Sykes and Tom Nichols Dissect Charlie Kirk's Astonishing Historical Illiteracy and Modern Conservative Dysfunction

[00:08] Welcome to The Bulwark Podcast. I'm

[00:10] Charlie Sykes joined by our good friend

[00:12] Professor Tom Nichols who has been up

[00:15] since the crack of dawn. You had to get

[00:17] up to do Morning Joe, so I appreciate

[00:19] the fact that you're with us here on the

[00:21] podcast and and not excessively cranky.

[00:24] Yet. Yet. Yet. Okay, so

[00:27] I was thinking about how to set the tone

[00:29] for our discussion to put us both right

[00:31] mood but you in the right mood. So,

[00:33] let's start off with something from

[00:36] Professor Charlie Kirk,

[00:37] the the well-known historian. I'm

[00:39] kidding of course.

[00:40] See, now I'm cranky.

[00:42] The

[00:43] Charlie Kirk is an interesting

[00:44] phenomenon because

[00:45] he's a he's a college dropout who has

[00:48] raked in millions of dollars for a group

[00:50] called Turning Point USA which is what

[00:54] 70-year-old conservative donors think is

[00:57] the coolest thing in the world for

[00:59] getting young people to turn to the

[01:01] right. And so, he is a ubiquitous figure

[01:04] in Trump world

[01:07] with with with his organization. And so,

[01:09] the other day

[01:10] he went on this this is what is this

[01:13] like an internet thing that Tucker

[01:15] Carlson does? It's sort of a

[01:18] it's it's not his actual show. They just

[01:20] sort of sit around and they videotape

[01:22] and they put it online.

[01:23] But but Charlie Kirk is is is sharing

[01:26] his deep thoughts about the state of the

[01:30] world and it's just too perfect, Tom.

[01:33] It's just too good. Let's play Charlie

[01:36] Kirk.

[01:37] But I'm actually not I'm an optimist,

[01:38] Tucker. I think that self-sovereignty

[01:41] and determination is inevitable. I mean,

[01:43] in 1945 there were 55 countries in the

[01:45] world. There's more than 230. The trend

[01:48] is micro-slicing yourself into a smaller

[01:50] way to govern yourself cuz you think

[01:53] that you have a certain custom or

[01:54] language.

[01:55] 55 countries at the end of the Second

[01:57] World War? That's according to Nigel

[01:58] Farage.

[01:59] I'll have to

[02:00] triple-check that. Oh, that's

[02:01] interesting. Yeah, but let's pretend

[02:03] it's 100. Let's just for argument's

[02:05] sake.

[02:06] Um cuz I I never want to say anything

[02:07] that's untrue, but he just said that

[02:08] yesterday on my podcast and it struck me

[02:10] as so

[02:11] interesting. And it's probably true when

[02:12] you think about it because It's yeah,

[02:14] the times of Churchill made a heavy

[02:15] impact. Well, the colonial in India and

[02:17] Southern Africa, right? So, it's

[02:19] probably right. India became three three

[02:22] countries, right? India, Pakistan,

[02:23] Bangladesh. That's right. So, and

[02:25] Churchill never thought India could work

[02:26] and we'll see if it does. But the trend

[02:29] is actually towards

[02:31] less global totalitarianism, not more.

[02:34] Okay, so there there were there were

[02:38] Wow.

[02:39] I thought that I I actually I you know,

[02:41] I 55 countries, yeah. Yeah, I I'd heard

[02:44] I'd seen on Twitter that there was some,

[02:46] you know, Charlie Kirk said something

[02:48] stupid thing floating around on Twitter,

[02:50] but I I

[02:50] that I'm actually now less cranky

[02:53] because there was no way not to laugh

[02:55] through that.

[02:56] But you know,

[02:57] if we're going to dredge this for a

[03:00] an important point about

[03:02] our old movement and our former comrades

[03:05] and former party, it's that when did

[03:07] stupid become cool? Yeah. Um

[03:11] because this isn't even just the kind

[03:15] of, you know,

[03:16] mistake of a tired mistake of, you know,

[03:19] saying that there are 57 states or that,

[03:23] you know, you're in Vermont when you're

[03:24] in New Hampshire after a long day of

[03:26] campaigning. This is this is like

[03:30] you know, rock-solid stupidity. Yeah.

[03:33] We've gone from we've gone from Edmund

[03:34] Burke to Charlie Kirk, right? We've gone

[03:36] from, you know, William F. Buckley Jr.

[03:39] to Charlie Kirk. So, I love the sourcing

[03:41] on all of this.

[03:43] I don't know this is

[03:45] I don't know that yeah. So, so okay, but

[03:47] but okay, I I do a I do a podcast.

[03:49] You've done lots of interviews. So,

[03:51] there's Tucker Carlson who's a

[03:53] reasonably well-educated guy who knows

[03:54] that it's complete [ __ ] that there's

[03:56] 55. But he goes he's sitting there and

[03:58] Charlie Kirk is pulling this totally out

[04:01] of his ass. And and Tucker Carlson goes,

[04:03] "Huh?"

[04:04] 55 countries,

[04:07] interesting. Not like wait wait,

[04:10] Charlie, I don't want to embarrass you

[04:12] and myself by doing this. This is

[04:14] complete [ __ ] By the way, if

[04:17] somebody says this on on this podcast,

[04:19] we're going to say, "No, I'm sorry.

[04:20] That's just not true." But but

[04:23] Tucker Carlson can't call out the

[04:24] stupid. This is the thing. He's not

[04:26] willing to say,

[04:27] "Charlie, I know you didn't finish

[04:30] school and you've never read a book in

[04:31] your life, but no, that's not true."

[04:34] But then it gets better where it's like,

[04:36] "No, that well, no, that's that's what

[04:38] Nigel Farage said

[04:40] said on my podcast yesterday." So,

[04:44] In my head listening to the audio, all I

[04:47] could see was Tucker's constipated face.

[04:51] You know, I I I

[04:52] Right, he's got that kind of, you know,

[04:55] the dog tilting his head sort of he's

[04:58] thinking real hard look. And and you

[05:01] know, again, let's the point of this is

[05:03] not to denigrate people that don't have

[05:05] a college education. I think the point

[05:07] is to denigrate people who don't know

[05:10] [ __ ] from Shinola.

[05:12] And they don't know what they don't

[05:12] know. So, stop them from talking about

[05:15] important things as if they know what

[05:17] they're talking about. Well, you then

[05:19] that's that's what's interesting is that

[05:21] is that Charlie Kirk's

[05:23] pretty good example of of the of this

[05:25] loop of misinformation and crazy which

[05:27] is I heard from some guy. It's pretty

[05:30] that is kind of Trumpy, right? He's

[05:31] like, "Some guy."

[05:33] are saying there were 55 countries. Many

[05:35] people are saying and I you know, I I

[05:37] don't want to say anything that's not

[05:38] true, so I should triple-check that as

[05:40] opposed to doing what I just did.

[05:43] Well, you know, the

[05:45] if we're if and if we're going to, you

[05:46] know, if we're going to decide to

[05:50] have a good laugh here because it was

[05:52] impossible not to, he's also

[05:54] misunderstanding why there were fewer

[05:56] countries. It's because there were, you

[05:58] know, empires.

[06:00] Um you know, that uh colonial powers.

[06:04] Yeah, you know, it's like, "Well, there

[06:06] were far fewer countries in Africa."

[06:07] Well, yes, there was a reason for that.

[06:09] And he he uses he says, "Well, you know,

[06:12] self-sovereignty is not Well, first of

[06:14] all, sovereignty by definition is

[06:17] self-sovereignty. There's no such thing

[06:18] as anything other than self-sovereignty.

[06:21] But he's trying to make some kind of

[06:22] larger point about countries and nations

[06:26] and states governing themselves. And in

[06:28] the end, the 55 countries thing, that's

[06:31] really a small and forgivable bit of

[06:34] dumbassery in the middle of this. The

[06:36] bigger problem is he has no idea what

[06:39] he's talking about or why he's talking

[06:41] about it.

[06:43] Okay, that's become the thing. It's

[06:45] like, "Look, I I think I have to make a

[06:47] point about countries and globalization

[06:49] and nations and states and so, I'm just

[06:52] going to keep talking while Tucker

[06:53] Carlson, you know, looks like he's kind

[06:56] of straining away going, 'Interesting,

[06:58] isn't that something? Do go on.'" Yeah,

[07:01] that's do do go on. I mean, again,

[07:03] there's always the option when someone

[07:05] says something like this, you can edit

[07:06] the tape or you're not you don't put it

[07:07] up on that. They don't they don't care.

[07:09] It does just doesn't matter anymore. I

[07:10] mean, this is this is the wonderful

[07:12] thing about being a right-wing media

[07:14] personality. There are no consequences.

[07:16] There are no standards. You are

[07:17] uncancelable. I mean, that's kind of a

[07:19] that's kind of liberating, right? I

[07:21] mean, you can say anything

[07:23] and They're for the experience. They're

[07:26] not there to learn. They're not there to

[07:28] debate. They're not there They're not

[07:29] there to have a discussion. They're not

[07:31] there to be kind of prodded into

[07:33] thinking about things. They're there

[07:35] They remind me of the

[07:37] the scene in an otherwise really bad

[07:39] movie in The Big Chill, the old boomer

[07:41] classic where

[07:43] a really stoned William Hurt is watching

[07:46] a movie and he has no idea what it is.

[07:48] And finally, after he gets asked enough

[07:50] times, he says, "Look, man, sometimes

[07:51] you have to just let art flow over you."

[07:54] And I think that's become conservative

[07:56] media. You know, it's like, "Look, I

[07:57] don't even know what this is about. I

[07:58] just know that Laura Ingraham or, you

[08:01] know, is really mad and Charlie Kirk's

[08:03] on a rip and Sean Hannity is chewing on

[08:05] his pencil and throwing a football

[08:07] around and, you know, losing his mind

[08:09] and it just all feels good." And you

[08:11] sometimes you just have to let it flow

[08:13] over you. Okay, so let's talk about

[08:16] politics. Let's get into something deep

[08:18] and serious, okay? Um we'll work up to

[08:21] the insurrection and democracy and all

[08:22] of those other things. But I find it

[08:24] very interesting what's going on in

[08:26] Florida and Texas where they're kind of

[08:28] in a race for one another to who can be

[08:31] the most anti anti-vaccination or at

[08:34] least anti-vaccination passports.

[08:36] Greg Abbott, the governor of Texas,

[08:38] following the lead of Ron DeSantis in

[08:40] Florida yesterday signed legislation

[08:43] that would ban private businesses or

[08:46] governmental entities from requiring any

[08:48] sort of a proof of vaccination from

[08:51] either their employees or their

[08:52] customers. Let's just play about 40

[08:54] seconds of Texas Governor Greg Abbott.

[08:57] Texas is open 100%.

[09:00] And we want to make sure that you have

[09:02] the freedom to go where you want without

[09:06] limits. Any. The Texas legislature

[09:09] passed a law that I am about to sign

[09:11] that prohibits vaccine passports in

[09:15] Texas.

[09:16] No business or government entity can

[09:19] require a person to provide a vaccine

[09:22] passport or any other vaccine

[09:24] information as a condition of receiving

[09:27] any service or entering any place.

[09:30] I want to thank the Texas legislature

[09:32] for getting this bill to my desk.

[09:36] So, Tom Nichols, interesting spin on the

[09:39] concept of small government and freedom.

[09:42] Yeah,

[09:43] you know, if you want to know what the

[09:44] United States would look like in a

[09:46] completely Republican-dominated

[09:49] government, it's

[09:51] you know, it's executives sitting behind

[09:53] a desk like Trump did saying, "I hereby

[09:56] decree

[09:58] that you are not the boss of me.

[10:01] Yeah. Um,

[10:02] but, you know, imagine the being This is

[10:06] This is great if you're a more freedom

[10:08] guy,

[10:09] um, but not so great if you're a

[10:11] business. This basically says, um, you

[10:14] know, why doesn't he just as and a lot

[10:15] of folks, you know, went after Abbott on

[10:17] social media in a kind of laughing way

[10:19] about it, but there's a serious point

[10:21] behind it. Why not just say, um, you

[10:23] can't put up the no shirt, no shoes, no

[10:26] service sign.

[10:28] Who are you to tell me I can't walk into

[10:29] a restaurant barefoot? Why can't I, you

[10:32] know, sit down for dinner, uh,

[10:34] shirtless?

[10:35] Um, you know, why not? Since when did

[10:38] Since when did Since when did private

[10:40] businesses have rights?

[10:43] Well, this is what's interesting about

[10:44] it because

[10:46] they're, you know, pushing this all on

[10:47] the don't tread on me freedom agenda,

[10:49] but it's really it's kind of morphed

[10:51] into this again use of coercive

[10:53] government power to

[10:56] protect what the citizenry from the

[10:58] tyranny of health mandates by Waffle

[11:00] House because I mean somebody might

[11:02] actually some business might decide that

[11:04] it's in the interest of my business, my

[11:07] employees, my customers to to have this

[11:10] kind of requirement. So, here's an a

[11:12] party that has claimed that it was

[11:15] pro-private enterprise, private

[11:18] property, pro-business, small

[11:21] government. And here's a big government

[11:23] mandate telling private citizens what

[11:25] they can't do on their own premises.

[11:28] Yes, it's I mean it is anti-conservative

[11:31] in every way. The Republicans have

[11:33] become the party of of

[11:36] First, I think the Republicans are now

[11:38] neck and neck with the Democrats for

[11:40] becoming the the nanny staters of all

[11:42] time.

[11:43] Um, but it's also become the party of

[11:46] coercive government power for culture

[11:49] war ends. This isn't This is no

[11:51] different and in some ways far more

[11:54] dangerous because it involves a

[11:55] pathogen, it involves a pandemic. This

[11:57] is no different than some of the things

[12:00] that you would expect to see out of a,

[12:01] you know, left-wing city council in

[12:04] California or or, you know, in,

[12:07] in a college town. Except that it's done

[12:10] with, you know, kind of a Texas twang

[12:12] and it's done with a sense of freedom

[12:14] and it's it's just red meat aimed at

[12:17] people whose understanding of democracy

[12:20] and freedom is at the level of a toddler

[12:23] who says, I have the right to pull my

[12:25] shoes off, you know, or pee and poop

[12:28] anywhere I want to because I am free in

[12:31] the way that, you know, animals are

[12:33] free. I I I I want to make a point that

[12:36] is only partially snarky. And actually I

[12:39] think it's 60/40 not snarky, but I'm

[12:41] reading Governor, you know, Abbott's

[12:43] comments. Texans should have the freedom

[12:46] to go where they want without any

[12:48] limits, restrictions, or requirements.

[12:52] Which sounds great. But does he actually

[12:54] mean that? No, no. Okay, so here's my

[12:57] thought experiment. All right, and I

[12:58] tried this in my newsletter this

[12:59] morning. And I I I

[13:01] I actually hope people will spend at

[13:03] least like 30 seconds thinking about it.

[13:05] Okay, so imagine the modern-day Abbotts

[13:08] and DeSantises of the world. How they

[13:11] would react to original proposals, for

[13:13] example, to require people to carry

[13:16] driver's licenses.

[13:18] Or put license plates on their cars if

[13:21] they have the ability to go wherever

[13:23] they want to do without any restrictions

[13:25] whatsoever. I mean, I can sort of

[13:27] imagine if this came up now it would be

[13:28] mark of the beast. See, they're trying

[13:30] to require papers, please don't tread on

[13:32] me. I'm really not kidding here. Now,

[13:34] think about it. Think about this this

[13:37] mentality. If we were starting over and

[13:39] people said, okay, you can drive a car,

[13:41] we can go anywhere, but you know what,

[13:42] you're going to have to have a number on

[13:44] the plate so the government will know

[13:45] who you are, you have to register that

[13:47] car, and you have to carry an

[13:49] identification card with you that shows

[13:52] that you know how to use that car. Oh my

[13:54] god, these people would lose their

[13:56] freaking minds. It's It's a It's a

[13:59] It's the return of the paranoid style in

[14:01] American politics.

[14:03] Um, but even more than that, it is a

[14:06] complete redefinition of everything that

[14:08] we ever understood to be conservative.

[14:10] You know,

[14:11] you get this all the time as I do about

[14:13] Oh, you know, you conservatives are

[14:15] always wrong and conservatism is always

[14:16] bad and it's just such a tiresome and

[14:18] annoying,

[14:20] uh, you know, drumbeat. But,

[14:23] when people say, well, what what was it?

[14:25] You know, what did you guys stand for?

[14:26] Well, for one thing, conservatism always

[14:29] stood for order versus kind of entropy

[14:32] or anarchy, right? I mean, this is where

[14:35] there was the authoritarian streak in

[14:37] conservatism because conservatives said,

[14:40] you know, an orderly society, a place

[14:43] where, you know, people do have to have

[14:45] license plates on their cars. And of

[14:46] course, in the '60s, you know, in the

[14:48] '50s and '60s, it was people on the left

[14:50] saying, hey, man, you know, you can't

[14:53] license me. You know, I'm too free. I'm

[14:56] too, you know, I'm a spirit of the

[14:58] world, man. I don't carry a license.

[15:00] But, conservatives were the ones who

[15:02] said, no, you know, cars have to have be

[15:03] identifiable and you have to be licensed

[15:05] to drive one and, you know, there was

[15:07] this kind of innate conservative notion

[15:10] that order is good. Now, conservatism

[15:14] means

[15:16] It's It's Conservatism is anarchy. It's

[15:18] It's It's nihilism. It's, you know, my

[15:21] freedom is completely without limits and

[15:23] if I want to walk in with four guns. I

[15:25] don't know if anybody saw the picture on

[15:27] Twitter, the guy walking around with

[15:29] four guns strapped to him, um, you know,

[15:32] to make the point that he could walk

[15:33] into a store with open carry. Um, you

[15:37] know, that's that's become the new

[15:38] symbol of I'm going to use little air

[15:41] quotes here, conservatism, uh, because

[15:43] conservatism means pissing everyone off

[15:46] because I can because mentally I'm 3

[15:49] years old. Yeah, I I don't know if I

[15:51] even want to use the word conservative

[15:52] to describe

[15:54] that, but you know, conservatism used to

[15:56] have you be described as, you know, the

[15:58] belief in ordered liberty. Now, that's a

[16:00] balance, ordered liberty. Um, people

[16:03] might say, well, that's a contradiction

[16:04] of terms. No, not at not at all. You

[16:05] know, that that that is the conservative

[16:07] sensibility was you balance order with

[16:10] liberty. You don't go one way or the

[16:12] other way. And of course, that balance

[16:14] is completely is completely gone right

[16:16] now. Just just like the balance between

[16:19] the needs of society and the community

[16:21] need to be balanced against individual

[16:23] freedom. That that the balance. Right

[16:25] now, it's like, you know, [ __ ] the

[16:27] community. If I want to do this, I'm

[16:28] going to do whatever I want. So,

[16:31] give me I'm going to get your sense

[16:32] because you you are of course, famous

[16:34] for your deep thoughts about the

[16:37] etiquette of flying on airplanes and

[16:38] everything.

[16:39] Ron Ron DeSantis is going all in and

[16:41] saying that none of the cruise ships

[16:43] should be able to require any sort of

[16:44] proof of of vaccination. Uh, and the

[16:47] cruise Interestingly enough, the cruise

[16:49] ship industries are going, wait, wait,

[16:50] wait, wait. We kind of want to get back

[16:52] going and this would help us if we could

[16:54] assure our passengers that we wouldn't

[16:57] become a floating petri dish dish of

[16:59] pandemic. So, would you would you get on

[17:02] a cruise ship, anytime soon this year? I

[17:05] mean, you want to get back to life,

[17:06] right? No, and I I mean, I I am not a

[17:08] cruise ship guy to begin with. Um, I'm

[17:11] But, if I had to be on a cruise ship, if

[17:13] somebody said, you know, uh, we'd like

[17:15] you to, I don't know, do a speaking gig

[17:17] or, you know, all

[17:19] I don't know I don't know. You know, you

[17:20] you need to get from Boston to Florida

[17:22] and all the airplanes are gone and you

[17:23] have to I I'm vaccinated. I wouldn't

[17:25] worry about it. But, uh, as I said on

[17:28] Twitter, my biggest

[17:30] My biggest concern would be that a boat

[17:32] full of unvaccinated people from Florida

[17:35] would be by definition being trapped on

[17:37] a ship full of [ __ ]

[17:39] Um, and so I I, you know, I just

[17:41] wouldn't want to have to socialize with

[17:43] a bunch of, you know, people

[17:44] It was a movie, wasn't it? Ship of

[17:46] [ __ ]

[17:48] It's famous.

[17:51] See, I think the other And if not, there

[17:53] should be But, you know, that they're

[17:55] going A bunch of people trying to make

[17:57] each other sick to make a point. And

[17:59] DeSantis, this is why DeSantis is, you

[18:02] know, the among the worst of the worst.

[18:04] He's He has broken the code. He's like,

[18:07] Yeah. I can do performative, uh, as you

[18:10] and I have often called it, performative

[18:12] assholery and do these dumb things and

[18:15] throw these to the throw this red meat

[18:18] to the rubes who don't, you know, don't

[18:20] know any better and don't care.

[18:22] And, um, you know, and I'll be president

[18:24] that way. And it actually might work for

[18:26] him. And it might work. I did see one

[18:28] point that I thought was actually pretty

[18:29] interesting reason not to get on a

[18:31] cruise ship under these circumstances,

[18:33] which is that, you know, even though

[18:34] you're vaccinated and you you won't get

[18:36] sick, the fact is that if you are on a

[18:39] cruise ship with a thousand other people

[18:41] who are not vaccinated, there's a

[18:43] possibility that they could infect one

[18:45] another and that you would be caught in

[18:47] a quarantine. And that you would be one

[18:49] of the people who'd be caught up, right?

[18:51] Um, you know, you know, stuck 3 miles

[18:53] out while they, you know, do all the

[18:55] testing and everything. And of course,

[18:57] if you hold up your your your vaccine

[18:58] passport, what, you're not supposed to

[19:00] look at that? I don't I don't know.

[19:03] So, No, it would be it would be a

[19:04] nightmare, but again, does the governor

[19:06] of Florida care? He wanted to get out I

[19:09] mean, I'm sure he's vaccinated and I'm

[19:10] sure that, you know, he's not planning

[19:12] on spending 10 days on a cruise ship.

[19:15] But, it he it made for a great, uh,

[19:18] moment, right? To stand up and say, look

[19:20] at me defending, uh, you know,

[19:23] I mean, these guys issue these these

[19:25] edicts and ukases as if they are reading

[19:27] the Universal Declaration of the Rights

[19:29] of Man,

[19:31] um, when in fact, all they're doing is

[19:33] just throwing, um,

[19:36] big T-bones of stupid, uh, to their to

[19:39] their to their base. And it's it's

[19:42] appalling.

[19:43] All right, so we have breaking news

[19:44] today, uh, and I I will I'm going to

[19:47] confess that I have not had a chance to

[19:49] to read the whole thing. Uh, the This is

[19:51] the the new findings from the Senate uh

[19:54] Senate report. Um it apparently it's a

[19:57] 128-page uh Senate report about the

[20:00] January 6th. Interestingly enough, the

[20:02] final 22 pages of this 128-page

[20:06] Senate report on the insurrection is

[20:09] just a transcript of Donald Trump's

[20:11] speech on the day of the of the attack

[20:14] on the Capitol. It's kind of

[20:16] interesting, isn't it?

[20:17] Well,

[20:18] I I I mean

[20:20] you know, much like the the audio that

[20:22] was just released with um Rudy Giuliani.

[20:25] Mhm. You know, are all the things that

[20:27] we suspected? Did anybody really think

[20:30] these things were not going to be

[20:32] uh turn out to be true?

[20:35] Um you know, that that uh

[20:38] that Trump incited this insurrection and

[20:41] directed people to go

[20:44] where they were going.

[20:45] Um of course that was going to be the

[20:47] case.

[20:48] And it of course it was the case that

[20:50] Rudy called Ukraine and said uh you

[20:53] know, uh if you were to play ball, some

[20:56] good stuff, I mean a friend of mine

[20:58] could make a friend of yours that thing

[21:00] could happen. I don't want to say what

[21:01] that thing is, but it's a thing and you

[21:03] want it and you know, um these guys were

[21:06] a bunch of mafia goons. They knew

[21:07] exactly what they were doing. Trump knew

[21:09] what he was doing. The Senate knew what

[21:12] Trump was doing and that's what makes

[21:13] the behavior of the Senate Republicans

[21:15] even all the more shameful.

[21:18] You also saw that uh the my my home

[21:20] state senator Ron Johnson along with

[21:22] Tommy Tuberville, Mike Lee, Rick Scott,

[21:24] and Ted Gru Ted Cruz all sent a letter

[21:26] yesterday to the Attorney General

[21:27] Merrick Garland requesting information

[21:30] on what they call the unequal

[21:32] application of justice for the

[21:34] insurrectionists and the Black Lives

[21:37] Matter protesters last summer. So, once

[21:41] again, we're we're we're seeing this

[21:43] extraordinary revisionism.

[21:46] I will say that among the things that I

[21:47] did not totally expect was the way in

[21:50] which larger and larger portions of the

[21:53] Republican Party are embracing the

[21:55] insurrectionists as somehow victims,

[21:58] victims of an overweening uh federal

[22:01] government that that they that they in

[22:03] fact are being persecuted. I I I thought

[22:05] a lot of things would happen. I This is

[22:07] This is an interesting development,

[22:09] isn't it? Interesting in quotes. Well,

[22:11] I'm I'm just going to say that I you

[22:14] know, was an early adopter on calling

[22:16] out Mike Lee as being full of [ __ ] about

[22:19] his loyalty to the Constitution.

[22:22] Um you know, that that was Oh, the great

[22:24] constitutionalist from Utah. Um you

[22:27] know, and I just thought that was always

[22:29] a lot of um

[22:31] um you know, um

[22:34] He's one of my camouflage

[22:36] uh you know, for the fact that if though

[22:39] if constitutional principles ever came

[22:41] into conflict with things that Mike Lee

[22:43] thinks are good, that the Constitution

[22:44] would be

[22:45] uh the victim of that of that collision.

[22:49] And so no, it doesn't you know, I I

[22:51] think what's surprising me is that they

[22:52] are saying it so bluntly. Uh

[22:56] you know, uh instead of saying, "Look,

[22:58] uh we're not holding Trump responsible

[23:00] for this, but the people who attacked

[23:01] the Capitol must be brought to justice

[23:03] because we are a nation of laws." You

[23:05] know, the the things we would have

[23:07] expected normal people to say in any

[23:11] party in previous years are now simply

[23:15] um not available in you know, it's like

[23:18] the brains of Republicans elected

[23:21] Republicans cannot process those words.

[23:23] And so instead it's like, "Hey, here's a

[23:25] good idea. Why don't we all get together

[23:27] and basically being like a Senate

[23:30] coalition for the legal defense of

[23:33] insurrectionists and seditionists?"

[23:36] Because again, they're I mean I think

[23:38] Charlie, you you you know Ron Johnson

[23:40] better than anybody. I mean John I I

[23:42] think Johnson is actually stupid and

[23:44] believes all this, but I think with with

[23:46] Cruz and Scott and you know, um Lee I

[23:51] think they know exactly what they're

[23:53] doing and they're saying this is what

[23:55] you know, again, they live in fear. A

[23:57] George Will had a great line about a

[23:59] month ago. Uh this is a new phenomenon

[24:02] in American politics, an American a

[24:04] great American political party, a once

[24:06] great party that is terrified of its own

[24:10] voters. Yeah.

[24:12] That's literally true. Okay, let's make

[24:13] everybody mad. Uh since we've gotten

[24:15] this far into the podcast, let's talk

[24:17] about Joe Manchin and HR1 and uh what

[24:20] the Democrats are doing on on on Capitol

[24:23] Hill. So, first of all, give me your

[24:24] take on on on Joe Manchin. Um I I I I I

[24:28] I was actually amused by some of the

[24:29] people actually amused as in I think

[24:31] they made an interesting point saying,

[24:33] "You know how Democrats right now are

[24:35] feeling about Joe Manchin? There were a

[24:36] lot of conservative Republicans who felt

[24:38] that way about Joe

[24:39] John McCain a few years back." And John

[24:42] McCain was considered a maverick, an

[24:44] independent, a courageous lone voice.

[24:47] Joe Manchin's not getting that treatment

[24:48] right now, is he?

[24:50] No, and you know, I'll I'll give you two

[24:53] versions of Joe Manchin. One is the you

[24:55] know, why everybody is mad at him and

[24:58] the other is why everybody shouldn't be

[24:59] mad at him. Um you know, first if you

[25:02] don't like Joe Manchin what Joe

[25:03] Manchin's doing, the answer for

[25:04] Democrats is

[25:06] uh elect more senators.

[25:08] Joe Manchin has the power he does

[25:10] because you know,

[25:12] you Democrats fell short when you should

[25:15] have been rolling.

[25:17] Uh you know, thank goodness you pulled

[25:19] off uh Georgia, but you know, the reason

[25:21] Joe Manchin is in the catbird seat here

[25:24] is because you only have 50 senators and

[25:28] that you know, is going to put Manchin

[25:30] and Sinema and others um at the fulcrum

[25:33] of power the way it always does when you

[25:36] have a divided Senate. The the the least

[25:38] ideologically committed or the most

[25:41] least ideologically pure members of your

[25:43] coalition or caucus will be the

[25:46] kingmakers. And you know, this is

[25:47] Republicans are not immune to this. Um

[25:50] here's a name from the past for you,

[25:51] Charlie. Jim Jeffords. Mhm. Um you know,

[25:55] Republican from Vermont who people said,

[25:57] "The guy is such a liberal, you know,

[25:59] and he ought to just vote with the

[26:01] Democrats." And one day Jim Jeffords

[26:02] said, "You know what?"

[26:03] Yeah. Yeah, I guess I will.

[26:05] And so you know, before you get too mad

[26:07] at Joe Manchin

[26:08] Senate control flipped as a result of

[26:10] that. Yeah.

[26:11] And and Jeffords uh you know, again to

[26:13] use another great movie line from LA

[26:15] Confidential, Jeffords made his play. He

[26:17] got what he wanted. Is uh you know, he

[26:20] he knew what he was doing. Um so you

[26:23] know, if you want to play that game with

[26:25] Joe Manchin, then keep practicing the

[26:28] words Senate Majority Leader Mitch

[26:29] McConnell again and see how you feel

[26:32] about that. The place where I think

[26:33] Manchin gets a lot of legitimate static

[26:37] is that he kind of plays this babe in

[26:39] the woods thing about saying, "Well, I'm

[26:41] sure 10 other Republicans out there, you

[26:45] know, that there must be besides Mitt

[26:47] Romney. I mean I'm sure we could just

[26:49] you know, I'm shocked shocked that we

[26:52] can't get to a bipartisan resolution."

[26:55] And this is I think where I can totally

[26:57] understand the frustration of Democrats

[26:59] who want to grab Manchin by the lapels

[27:01] and say,

[27:02] "Look, either you're either you're being

[27:04] disingenuous or you're being stupid.

[27:06] Which is it? Because this is never going

[27:08] to happen. The you are not going to

[27:10] Mitch McConnell has already made his

[27:12] choice. You are not going to get 10

[27:14] Republicans for anything."

[27:17] You know, you could pass the you could

[27:19] pass the you know, uh the the the

[27:22] motherhood and apple pie, you know,

[27:25] co-sponsored by Jesus Christ themself

[27:28] and

[27:29] Well, that was the January 6th

[27:30] commission. If you If you can't get 10

[27:31] votes for the January 6th commission,

[27:33] that ought to be kind of the red flag

[27:35] this is not going to happen. I love the

[27:37] quote over the weekend. It was something

[27:38] like Manchin said something like, "Well,

[27:40] he's still optimistic that that

[27:41] Republicans, you know, his Republican

[27:43] colleagues would look into their souls

[27:45] and realize they needed to do X, Y, or

[27:47] Z." And my reaction to that was um

[27:50] Senator Manchin, uh they've been looking

[27:52] into their souls for the last 4 years

[27:54] and they've come up empty over and over

[27:56] and over again. Why do you think it's

[27:58] going to be different this time? Yeah,

[28:00] or or they've even worse, they've looked

[28:02] into their souls and there is this, you

[28:04] know, kind of howling evil voice that

[28:07] says, "Do it, you know."

[28:09] You'll get away with it. Okay, so here

[28:12] here's the problem and this is where I'm

[28:14] I'm getting a little bit frustrated um

[28:16] and and I'll get blowback for this, but

[28:18] you know, the Democrats sometimes are

[28:19] very bad at politics. I'm sorry to say

[28:21] this. The whole HR1 thing, um this bill

[28:25] was never going to pass. There was never

[28:27] a chance it was going to pass. It wasn't

[28:29] written to pass. You don't have an

[28:31] 800-page omnibus bill like that, you

[28:33] know, to jam through on a on a on a

[28:35] partisan basis. And yet they've had all

[28:38] sorts of off-ramps to break it down, to

[28:40] come up with different alternatives, to

[28:41] go with the John Lewis bill. And so Joe

[28:44] Manchin in a sense just simply called

[28:46] out the political reality. And I do

[28:49] wonder whether or not there's there's

[28:51] there's an element of delusion going on

[28:53] in the Democrats that with a four-vote

[28:55] margin in the House and no vote margin

[28:57] in the Senate that you know, let's go

[28:59] pedal to the metal. You know, the

[29:01] progressives are saying they're fed up

[29:03] with all the pussyfooting around. It's

[29:04] time to go you know, it's go time. Go

[29:06] time where? What What are you talking

[29:09] about?

[29:10] revealing Yeah. The most revealing

[29:12] comment on this was a was a Democratic

[29:14] staffer uh in the Washington Post

[29:17] who said, "Do you think Manchin was the

[29:20] only guy who had a problem with this?"

[29:21] And his exact quote was, "Fuck no." No.

[29:24] Uh that

[29:26] the front guy on that. Yeah. He's just

[29:28] the front guy on that. And I think there

[29:30] there's a couple of things going on

[29:32] here. One is Republic Republicans are so

[29:35] uh afraid of their own base that they do

[29:37] crazy stuff. Democrats I think don't

[29:40] trust their base to keep showing up

[29:43] unless they can shovel goodies,

[29:47] you know, by the wagon load out the

[29:48] front door. They keep saying things

[29:50] like, "But if we don't do all these

[29:52] things, and we don't show that Biden can

[29:54] deliver on all these things, then our

[29:57] base, you know, and and my answer is,

[29:59] your base is what? What? They're going

[30:02] to vote for Ron DeSantis for president?

[30:04] I mean, what does that mean, your base

[30:06] will be

[30:07] uh concerned? Um you know, this was I

[30:10] think this is the one huge difference in

[30:13] how Republicans and Democrats do

[30:14] politics.

[30:16] Now, Republicans grumble and they say,

[30:17] "Yeah, I didn't get what I wanted." And,

[30:19] you know, I mean, with Reagan, I mean,

[30:21] you know, again, you and I are both old

[30:22] enough to remember Reagan in '84 and the

[30:23] evangelicals. We didn't get prayer in

[30:25] school, we didn't get abortion banned,

[30:26] we didn't get this. And the Reagan

[30:28] staffer who said, "Screw them. What are

[30:29] they going to do? Vote for Mondale?" And

[30:31] of course, and they all came back and

[30:32] they all voted for Reagan because, you

[30:34] know, grumble, grumble, they weren't

[30:35] going to vote for Mondale.

[30:37] Um Well, there was no there was there

[30:38] was no conservative talk radio in '84.

[30:40] There was no Fox News in 1984. There was

[30:43] no um, you know, the vast grifter

[30:46] outrage industry out there that was, you

[30:48] know, willing to to, you know, stoke

[30:50] descent back then. So, that was that was

[30:52] actually a much a kinder and gentler era

[30:55] for a conservative president back in 19

[30:57] also, I think you had stronger

[30:59] conservative leaders who would have

[31:01] said, "No, I don't take my marching

[31:02] orders from a guy on AM radio."

[31:04] Right. Um you know, that that I think it

[31:07] just the idea, you know, that Rush

[31:08] Limbaugh was going to tell Ronald Reagan

[31:10] what to do is pretty funny.

[31:12] Um but the Democrats are perpetually

[31:14] terrified that if they don't somehow

[31:17] pull off everything all at once. And

[31:19] there's also I I think,

[31:21] you know, Joy Reid of all people, when

[31:23] talking to our friend Tim Miller

[31:25] yesterday, was like, "Why don't

[31:27] Democrats get this?"

[31:29] Uh and I think Democrats are terrible at

[31:32] the marshmallow test.

[31:34] Um one of the great Wait, wait, what

[31:37] what is the marshmallow test?

[31:38] Well, the marshmallow test is that test

[31:39] they give to kids where you can have one

[31:41] marshmallow when I come back in the room

[31:43] if you don't touch the one that's here

[31:44] now. And of course, you know, it's a

[31:46] test of impulsive behavior, right? That

[31:48] the kids gobble up the marshmallow and

[31:49] they go, "Okay, I I ate it." You know,

[31:51] um they're bad at incremental wins and

[31:55] taking a kind of longer view. Guys like

[31:58] McConnell, I always say to Democrats, be

[32:00] like Mitch. He plays the long game. He

[32:03] takes his incremental wins. He picks the

[32:05] things he knows he can win, and he

[32:07] twists the arms of his coalition to make

[32:09] sure he gets them, and he does it in

[32:12] pieces over time.

[32:14] Whereas, I think Democrats have this

[32:16] notion of, "Well, we're in power, and we

[32:18] will never not be in power,

[32:21] and so we'll just kind of, you know, as

[32:23] you say, put the pedal to the metal." Uh

[32:26] but

[32:27] I I just think that that is always a

[32:29] short-sighted approach to to politics.

[32:32] And I think they I don't know why they

[32:34] don't get it except that they are

[32:36] constantly worried that their own

[32:38] coalition is so fractious and unreliable

[32:41] that if they don't have constant

[32:44] um

[32:45] constant victories on everything that

[32:47] their coalition goes home and watches

[32:49] TV, which I think is unfortunate. Yeah,

[32:51] I I I do think that there's a a strain

[32:54] of pragmatism in the Democratic Party

[32:56] that obviously resulted in Joe Biden

[32:58] being the nominee as opposed to uh as

[33:00] opposed to Bernie Sanders. But uh

[33:02] I think part of it was the story that

[33:04] they were telling themselves. They were

[33:05] telling themselves that uh that they

[33:07] were triumphant, that everything they

[33:09] were doing was massively popular, that

[33:11] they didn't need to worry about things

[33:12] like defund police or urban violence or

[33:15] any of those things, and they continue

[33:16] to tell themselves that.

[33:18] even Biden was a near run thing for a

[33:20] while. Very much so. You know,

[33:22] As as we now know. Yes. You know, the

[33:26] the the the book on the Allen and

[33:29] Partons book on, you know, the Biden

[33:30] campaign, for example,

[33:32] um you know, Jim Clyburn saved the

[33:34] country. I mean, because the Democrats

[33:36] were having these big arguments about,

[33:38] "Well, should it be Bernie? Should it be

[33:39] Elizabeth Warren?" I mean, they were

[33:40] sitting around thinking about the least

[33:42] electable people. I and I think Here,

[33:45] let me since you've gotten out on a limb

[33:47] to try and piss everybody off, I can't

[33:49] leave you out there by yourself. So, I

[33:50] will say

[33:51] that in part, what I think happens with

[33:53] Democrats is they are very much addicted

[33:56] to the notion of politics as

[33:57] self-actualization.

[33:59] That they make political dis their

[34:01] voters, and I I mean, particularly their

[34:03] voters, say, "What does this vote say

[34:05] about me?

[34:07] Does it make me feel good to vote this

[34:09] way?" They are not a party

[34:11] The Republicans have really mastered the

[34:15] art of holding their noses and gritting

[34:17] their teeth and saying, "Look, I want to

[34:19] win. I want my guy to win. I want the

[34:21] Republican Party to win, and I want, you

[34:24] know, Kevin McCarthy to be the House

[34:25] Speaker, and I want Mitch McConnell to

[34:27] be running the Senate."

[34:28] I don't think the Democrats have gotten

[34:31] to that kind of level of party

[34:33] discipline

[34:34] where they are capable of saying, "This

[34:36] makes me feel bad, but I have to do it

[34:38] anyway." Well, let's double down on this

[34:40] uh pissing people off thing because the

[34:42] other the other thing that that

[34:43] um the Democrats are not as good at as

[34:46] Republicans is is is picking their

[34:48] enemies and coming up with their talking

[34:49] points. Um you know, it is interesting,

[34:52] you know, to watch how the right

[34:54] coalesces around, "We're going to go

[34:56] after Anthony Fauci now." You know,

[34:57] Fauci-ism. This is going to be our

[34:59] thing. We're going to pound this, pound

[35:00] this, pound this. Like they did with

[35:02] with Benghazi. Like they like they are

[35:03] doing now with Kamala Harris. And by the

[35:05] way, you notice that part of the

[35:07] strategy, the you know, you know,

[35:09] socialist left wing um, you know,

[35:12] Democrats is to kind of ignore Biden,

[35:14] say that he's simply a a uh you know, a

[35:17] puppet a a puppet a a figurehead, and

[35:19] the real power is Kamala Harris, who,

[35:22] let's be honest, does not have all of

[35:24] his political skills. She's not She's

[35:26] kind of having a rough patch here, and

[35:27] so they're all focusing on that.

[35:29] Whereas, Democrats are kind of all over

[35:31] the place. They have not focused on

[35:33] January 6th, for example, in the way

[35:36] that Republicans used to focus on things

[35:38] like Benghazi. The Republicans are

[35:40] better at at naming at at fixing and

[35:44] freezing their target and their enemy.

[35:47] Whereas, Democrats feel like they're

[35:49] kind of all over the place.

[35:51] Right. Do you agree or not? I Absolutely

[35:53] agree. And, you know, the I I mean, I've

[35:55] had Democrats tell me, "Well, we're not

[35:58] like you. You know, we're not We don't

[36:00] take orders. Um you know, we don't march

[36:03] in step, and we don't do message

[36:05] discipline." Well, that's not

[36:07] necessarily an inherently conservative

[36:09] or Republican thing. I mean, you have

[36:11] guys like David Shore, um you know, some

[36:14] a gong I keep trying to bang every

[36:15] chance I get about David Shore saying,

[36:18] "Look, all all politics, you know, used

[36:21] to be the the Tip O'Neill rule, all

[36:23] politics local. All politics are

[36:25] national now. And what you do in these D

[36:28] plus 55 districts washes over onto

[36:32] people in these, you know, D plus one or

[36:34] R plus two districts. And so, you guys

[36:36] have to talk to each other, and you have

[36:38] to get some kind of clarity. And I think

[36:41] you're right, Charlie, you said earlier,

[36:42] it was like it was a story they told

[36:44] themselves that no, no, defund the

[36:46] police. No one No one misunderstands

[36:48] that.

[36:49] Um you know, no one could possibly

[36:51] disagree with that. You know, one of the

[36:54] interesting um

[36:55] I was right stories that I'll just,

[36:58] since we're, you know, tripling and

[37:00] quadrupling down on pissing people off,

[37:01] I said, you know, that that Joe Biden

[37:04] might be a racist attack from Harris.

[37:06] That's going to That's going to leave a

[37:08] mark.

[37:09] And I was reliably assured by very

[37:11] serious liberals, "No, no, everybody

[37:13] understands just politics. They're

[37:15] friends. They were in the Senate." Oh,

[37:16] but

[37:16] well, from what we now know, that nearly

[37:19] cost her the spot. That that they looked

[37:21] for a lot of other people

[37:23] um for the VP spot because the Biden

[37:26] people didn't want Harris there

[37:28] specifically because of that. And

[37:30] Democrats have this this wish wishful

[37:33] thinking, this wish casting of, "No, no,

[37:36] you can attack Joe Biden as a racist,

[37:38] but then tomorrow it'll all be bygones.

[37:40] Or we can say defund the police, but all

[37:42] the all the reasonable people understand

[37:44] that what we really mean is, you know,

[37:46] don't hurt people." And I mean, it's

[37:48] just it's almost like a childlike

[37:51] in the same way that Republicans can

[37:52] only understand freedom as, "You know, I

[37:55] want to I I am free to smear poop on the

[37:58] walls." Democrats seem to understand

[38:00] politics as,

[38:01] "If it makes me feel good, it can't be

[38:03] wrong, and everyone will agree with me."

[38:06] Well, you know, going back to this David

[38:08] Shore point, which which I don't think

[38:10] can be overemphasized, which is that all

[38:12] this politics all politics now are are

[38:14] national. Uh the reality is that things

[38:18] that AOC says play in every single

[38:20] district. She's not just running in her

[38:22] own district. It's playing in Abigail

[38:23] Spanberger's district. It's It's It's

[38:26] playing in Conor Lamb's district. It's

[38:28] playing everywhere at the same time. So,

[38:31] that's the reality. And uh

[38:35] I I again, I I think this is part of the

[38:37] problem of that both sides

[38:40] People hate that phrase, both sides, but

[38:41] both sides now have their alternative

[38:42] realities. And when you begin talking to

[38:45] one another, you know, so so intently,

[38:47] you probably are missing what voters who

[38:51] are going to decide who controls

[38:53] Congress are actually hearing from you.

[38:56] And there've been a number of studies

[38:57] from Democrats. This this latest study

[38:59] from this Democratic group warning

[39:01] Democrats that, "Hey, you know, you you

[39:04] um you might have problems if in fact

[39:06] voters continue to think that Democratic

[39:08] brand brand is letting your city burn,

[39:10] and you're going to take away all your

[39:11] money. Uh you need to do something about

[39:13] that." Now, that's not true. I

[39:14] understand that it's not true, and I'm

[39:16] going to get all these emails saying,

[39:18] "Charlie, you don't understand. We don't

[39:19] actually think that." Look, politics is

[39:22] also about communicating. It's also

[39:23] about the messaging. And it's also about

[39:25] the consequences of your ideas. Now, the

[39:28] flip side of this is that Republicans

[39:31] need to be held accountable um and need

[39:33] to be called out for every one of their

[39:35] crazies. It's just that it appear the

[39:38] right seems to be better at

[39:40] nationalizing the the the excesses of

[39:43] the left more than the Democrats are

[39:46] successful at weaponizing the crazy, the

[39:48] dangerous, the seditious stuff on the

[39:50] right. Am I wrong about it? Is that just

[39:53] my perspective on it? I just I You're

[39:55] not You're not wrong and um you know,

[39:59] I think the

[40:00] tagline for today's podcast is Tom and

[40:02] Charlie piss off everybody. Well, yeah.

[40:05] Um this is what we do. The other problem

[40:06] is that

[40:08] the Democrats seem they almost seem to

[40:11] be helpless in the face of the

[40:12] conservative media machine. So, when you

[40:15] say things to them like, "Look, don't

[40:17] don't use dumb slogans like defund the

[40:19] police." They say, "Well, the rightists

[40:22] are going to call us socialists anyway,

[40:24] so we might as well do it." And it's

[40:25] like,

[40:27] You know, in in the in the study of

[40:29] strategy and

[40:30] as always I have to add I don't

[40:31] represent the government or anybody, you

[40:33] know, by being here. In the study of

[40:35] strategy,

[40:37] you don't want to be what's called a

[40:38] cooperative adversary.

[40:40] You don't want to be the adversary who

[40:42] constantly plays into your enemies'

[40:44] tricks and snares and traps. And the

[40:47] Democrats are like, "Well, they're going

[40:48] to do it They're going to call us

[40:49] socialists anyway, so let's go for

[40:51] socialism." Well, don't be the thing

[40:53] that your opponents are trying to tar

[40:55] you with.

[40:56] And so, they kind of give up on their

[40:58] own messaging. Um but then they they

[41:02] even kind of go um

[41:05] further with this because they're they

[41:08] they decide that if messaging doesn't

[41:10] matter,

[41:11] then um it's okay to say things like

[41:15] birthing people instead of women.

[41:17] okay. This is like great minds think

[41:19] alike. This is

[41:20] literally what I was about to say. We we

[41:22] Look, I mean, can I just make this

[41:24] suggestion? We need the complete and

[41:25] total ban on the term birthing people. I

[41:27] mean, really. Aside from Let us leave

[41:30] aside for a moment whether or not this

[41:32] term makes any sense at all. Let us

[41:34] leave this as a completely

[41:36] Let us be completely value neutral about

[41:39] the definitional issue of the term

[41:41] birthing people. The real question is,

[41:44] when you have the house by a thread,

[41:46] when you are completely tied in the

[41:48] Senate, and you are trying to pass an

[41:50] infrastructure bill, do you want to pull

[41:53] the pin on a grenade called birthing

[41:56] people that then becomes the thing that

[41:59] your opponents will talk about, and then

[42:01] is and then you end up having to talk

[42:03] about it. And Charlie,

[42:05] you know, how many times do we have to

[42:07] tell people? What's the rule in

[42:08] politics? If you're explaining,

[42:11] you're losing.

[42:13] You are.

[42:14] Tom Nichols, thank you so much for all

[42:16] your time today even though we managed

[42:18] to piss everybody off, but that that's

[42:20] what we do, right? I mean, That's what

[42:21] we do. That's our brand. What What is

[42:23] the point of doing these things if

[42:25] occasionally we don't rub people,

[42:27] including ourselves, the wrong way? It's

[42:29] It's good for It gets It gets the the

[42:31] heartbeat up and you know, it's good

[42:33] good for you. Gets the gets the cortisol

[42:36] flowing, so

[42:38] But the But the good news is that

[42:40] tomorrow morning you and I will both

[42:41] wake up and we will not be Charlie Kirk.

[42:43] So, I mean, that's that's there's

[42:45] there's that. Hey, thank you all for

[42:46] listening to today's Bullwark podcast.

[42:48] I'm Charlie Sykes. We will be back

[42:50] tomorrow and we'll do this all over

[42:51] again.