Joe Rogan Experience #2198 - Bret Weinstein

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day good to see you my friend oh good to see you man strange times we're living in uh the strangest and getting stranger didn't some [ __ ] go down today didn't we steal the president of Venezuela's plane oh I didn't hear about yeah I think we just stole his plane I didn't no not us okay good the United States all right which is kind of an act of War what is that was he in it I don't think so no I think we just stole his plane C just like for a joy ride so what's the story us seizes Venezuela president Nicholas maduro's airplane in the Dominican Republic so we said nope we're stealing that how does that work even if you don't get along with like a president of a country how disrespectful is it to steal their plane this you're right it's an act of War like imagine if XI jingping landed somewhere we're like we're going to steal your [ __ ] plane yeah no chance that's a bully move that's a move you can only do to a country like Venezuela yes well I I'm trying to remember exactly what the story was but there was a point where Ecuador was acting very courageously with respect to Julian Assange and there was a question about whether the president of Ecuador could fly Assange out so that he could be outside of the embassy and inside of Ecuador proper and I believe the reasoning was they couldn't do it because they expected the plane to be forced down same same issue so this says uh Merck Garland said that the justice department seized an aircraft we allege was illegally purchased for $13 million through a shell company and smuggled out of the United States for use by Nicholas Madura and his cronies what what business is that of ours though this is what I don't understand like if it was purchased through a shell company then it was purchased right and was there was there a trial that established that this was Otten gain it says smuggled out of the United States the plane was purchased from a company in Florida the justice department said and was illegally exported in April 2023 from the United States to Venezuela through the Caribbean so are we not allowed to sell them planes is that what it is like cuz we have a problem with them would they say how much it cost 13 million bucks yeah okay so he's got this $13 million plane a desault falcon 900 ex since been used to fly almost exclusively to and from military base in Venezuela justice department said CNN reached out to Venezuelan government us huh it seems like though that's like that's there's more to it than yeah that plane was uh illegal you shouldn't have that plane for years officials have sought to disrupt the flow of billions of dollars to the regime Homeland Security investigations the second largest investigative agency in the federal government has seized dozens of luxury Vehicles among other assets headed to Venezuela so there's a US sanction so there's a sanction this is it the plane was seized in violation of us sanctions with Venezuela and other criminal matters that we're looking in at regarding this aircraft they're going to find a reason to keep it like they stole all those boats from all those Russian cats yeah sorry too rich and you know Putin give me your boat well that's the thing is there's there's a hidden story for everything and this is about you know incentivizing the world and we in the public don't get to know the real story don't you think now though um most people I feel like gen genuinely most people are aware there's more to the story every story everything in the news every time something comes up people like what the whole story here well you know I I coined this term the cartisian crisis and the cartisian crisis basically means the point at which you can't really be certain of anything and the problem is yes I do think people are catching on to the fact that they never know the real story but the response to that is either that you start believing the [ __ ] that they tell you or that you just become cynical and stop believing anything and neither of those are functional ways to exist and both those ways are good for the people that are running scams exactly they're good for the people who want to maintain power it just keeps us back on our heels yeah because if you don't know what's true and what's not true you're like oh jeez you know and then you get cynical oh it's all [ __ ] this whole system is rigged then you just go fishing right and that and that's the thing people don't understand is at the point that you think you're striking a Blow by checking out of their system you're actually doing them a favor right it's actually beneficial to them because then you have a smaller number of people that are voting so essentially in the 2020 elections it was a the largest ever uh win right the the Democrats got 80 something million votes which is uh so let's say let's see even if it was 50/50 so somewhere in the neighborhood of 160 million people how many people are women and CH I mean how many people are children women can vote what am I saying how many people are are children rather oh geez I have no idea on the percentage under 18 it's probably in the 30% so that's a pretty high turnout yes if that was even if it was real yeah that's the problem we have no there that's the problem with the whole cynical game because I'm not convinced I you know why I'm not convinced because everybody wants me to be convinced when when they like yell at you if you ask a question like hey what one of the things that I've always said and everyone sort of agrees with this I mean literally everyone even people that think that the the election was 100% legitimate the percentage of voter fraud is never zero correct and they're always like yes no one can say it's zero it's not zero there's a bunch of slippery people that get arrested on both sides of the aisle Republicans and Democrats get arrested for election fraud it's a real crime the idea that they commit all these other acts of Fraud and deception but when it comes to elections Brett that's a sacred institution that we don't violate at any cost yep well and and the way they maintain that story is by ruthlessly punishing anybody who questions it even though questioning it is the obvious thing to do because for one thing elections used to be different as you remember right first of all you used to vote in person and voting by mail was something you were very reluctant to do because you knew that if your vote got counted it was going to be very late in the process it wasn't really going to matter it was mostly for soldiers serving overseas right exactly it was for people who just simply couldn't vote in person and it never really mattered except in very rare cases The Disappearance of that and the normalization of voting by mail the normalization of voting across a period of time so that you're not all voting on the same day and the absence of exit polls right when everybody's voting from home or wherever you can't detect fraud by virtue of the fact that the count that came in from that Precinct didn't match what the exit pollers registered right and so you know I don't think we are wrong to imagine that we have lost the ability to check whether an election is fair and that that's not an accident that that o that leaves the possibility open to cheat and as you point out they cheat in every other way are we supposed to believe that they won't do that because their patriotism is so deep I don't see any patriotism to them at all well not only that they've established this narrative that it's imperative that the Democrats win to save democracy right so they've already made all of these uh statements that would it's more important for them to win than anything more important than anything more important than having primaries more important than letting the people decide who the representative is more important than having like live actual conversations interviews that aren't edited on CNN in said they have a 40 plus minute one that's edited down to 18 minutes like what well and we just went through this with them over covid yeah we know that when they think they're in the right they feel entitled to lie about everything they feel entitled to coer and so the idea that we're supposed to imagine that our elections are somehow different to them I can't imagine how that would even work it doesn't make any sense and it's it's one of those things again that you're you're forced into agreeing with just out of fear because people get very aggressive with it just like people were super aggressive about the vaccine you know I I hate seeing people die because they made a poor choice but there's something insane about how many people were like Pro vaccine Advocates that were shaming people and angry at people and now they're dead and they're not dead because they ran their time and they got old and they died and you know it's unfortunate but it happens to all uhuh no they're dead young like a lot a lot of people not one not 20 we don't even know what the real numbers are because it's not something the mainstream media covers because they've all been vaccinated too and they're probably freaking the [ __ ] out too yeah it's a huge number of people we can detect that statistically it the trouble is that it's hard in any individual case to know whether or not you're looking at something that would have happened anyway right um so you remember John Ritter yes from Threes Company sure died of a I work with him ruptur oh you did yeah did an episode of news radio with him super nice guy good guy yeah I got that impression um anyway he died of a ruptured aorta if I remember correctly long before there was covid vaccine so the is if that had happed last year we'd all be saying come on in Hollywood he got and now look at him yep so it happens 100% right but the rate at which it's happening has changed radically and the Very people who say oh that's not the vaccine are very uninterested in figuring out what it is so you know let's put two and two together well they don't even want to consider the vaccine which is so crazy if you called it anything else if it wasn't called the vaccine if it wasn't for covid okay let's because Co became so it became so politicized and it be it was like culturally so polarizing let's pretend it was for something else and there was some medication and the people that were taking that medication were dropping like flies they would 100% make a correlation and they would make it publicly and it'd be in the news of course it might not actually be in the news today because this is part of the problem with what we're dealing with with advertising and the media is that there's so much revenue that come comes from pharmaceutical drug companies that there's just a reality about them reluctant to print or or put any stores on television that are negative there's too much money involved right there's too much money involved and it becomes impossible to override this narrative The Narrative takes on a reality of its own even though it is contradicted by the facts and we you know our our scientific tools are they're tremendously powerful at discovering patterns like this it's not difficult to do and yet we deliberately avoid using them in the ways that they were uh intended do you think in the future we'll we'll look back on this and there'll be some sort of a some some sort of a shift in the way we discuss it you know there's a lot of things in history that during the time where they were happening I'm sure people were all like the McCarthy era you know I'm sure people thought it was very important to root out these Communists but they didn't exactly understand like hey you're calling a lot of people Communists aren't even Communists you're going after people that just went to meetings to find know what's going on the world didn't exactly understand what that even meant Back Then There Was You know we look back at it now the Red Scare is like a a a negative thing it's a a dangerous sort of negative aspect of our history yeah although you know I'm sure you're having the same experience were lots of stuff that you learned as a clear narrative like you know the Red Scare took over people and it was like a Witch Hunt and the answer is actually more nuanced than that there was more truth to it than I was taught right the rosenbergs really were guilty of passing secrets to the Russians oh yeah there definitely was a lot of that so you know it's a mixed story right you asked the question though if in the future we're going to have a different conversation about what's taking place and I just want to put a little placeholder there the answer kind of depends if there is a future and I worry a lot that not only are we headed into chaos but that we are going to be denied the ability to have a proper historical account of the present that we're never going to understand what these stories were doing why they played out the way they did you know why people disappeared when they did and that that's not healthy you need to be able to create a record it's never going to be perfect but you need to be able to create a record of what took place that has been exposed to some kind of analytical standard so that you can correct your course if you don't know what happened you can't improve on your thought process going forward and that's extremely dangerous it's like you know flying with a blindfold yeah that's a great way to put it and I'm glad you did point out the fact that there were really things the red scar is a weird example because people would like to kind of dismiss the impact that Communists especially Russia was having on our our government and there was pretty big impact I mean they did steal the plans for the nuclear bomb there was a lot of [ __ ] that happened because of actual communist interference but the the narrative when I was in high school was that the Red Scare was bad right right it was like everybody went crazy and they were all looking for which was true too but that's part of the problem when you don't know like back then no internet very little paper trail it's really hard to find out who's talking to who unless you like get get an actual listening device in the room and capture them talking yeah we we can't know and I you know it's it's important to get your comeuppance on these stories you you grow up comfortable that you understand what happened during the Red Scare and then one day you're doing a little reading and you discover the story just isn't the one you were taught and um the more stories you dig into the more frequently that happens well if you just get one good one you're hooked for me it was the Kennedy assassination MH one good book on the Kennedy assassination I was like God damn it they killed the [ __ ] president it freaked me out forever that was like the I literally had a a giant shift in how I viewed the world after reading that book CU before that I was never a questioner of whatever was in the news or whatever the narrative was that we were being told about anything well but I mean I I have exactly the same reaction to that story and I I've been down that rabbit hole and I think you're just ultimately left to the question something happened in 1963 that's before either of us were born right right that thing was either an anomaly that robbed the nation of a president and the nation continued to be a Democratic Republic in the aftermath of it or that was interference with democracy and we don't know how to look at all of the seemingly Democratic things that have happened since how much of what has happened since are the people who took control with that assassination how much is them continuing to maintain control with a certain amount of democracy and how much was that a an aberration that then returned us to our normal course and uh that's a good point a certain amount of democracy a certain amount it's there's clearly a certain amount yeah well which is one of the reasons why they're so terrified of trump like there's a certain amount of stealing they can do if if let's imagine if there are if it is dirty and you really can manipulate elections how much can you manipulate by can you manipulate it by 30% you know because we don't know and as long as they can have you believing in the polls this is what's really important polls KLA Harris is up by 3% oh she's up she's winning like who the [ __ ] are you talking to who are you talking to right and and you're not talking to me what narrative is it in which comma has done something that might have caused a surge in her popularity like I didn't see it well some magic it's like um you know there's that theory that concept about multiple dimensions in multiple universes that we all live M yeah this this possibility that there's infinite numbers of universes all around us all the time and we enter into a different timeline we entered into a different time well clearly I mean something happened I I think I think the Multiverse thing is nonsense I think it's an accounting scheme for figuring out how to deal with the fact that actually the universe is not deterministic which people wrestle with because we don't exactly know why it isn't but um but to your point about how much can they cheat I call that factor which none of us can put a number on maybe they can right I call it the cheat Factor right the cheat margin and one of the things that I'm trying to convince people of is that it's not hopeless because they can cheat but it means that you have to succeed at a level that exceeds their capacity to erase it right so that's what we're talking about so we're talking about like maybe they can cheat by 10% right and what we know and I I think actually we owe Trump a huge debt of gratitude for proving something that I couldn't have told you if it was true before he won the presidency which is is there still enough democracy left in the system for something to upend the plan right cuz he was clearly off narrative right and he did become president so he you know he did something for us that I don't know anybody else who could have done it yeah it would take a person with that kind of personality that could withstand that kind of abuse cuz he didn't freak out at all when they went after him he's like right just brushed off like it was nothing and no one's done that he's also the only guy that's ever gone through four years and didn't age like he went through 30 years that's true he aged normal yeah he's used to it he's used to pressure you know and Bush he aged a ton Obama aged a ton everybody aged a ton Biden was already cooked before he got in but he's hard but he aged a ton I mean Biden from 2019 to today is a different person yeah and he was already visibly degraded but wow was it a precipitous big jump now yeah Trump was fine yeah Trump physically and actually I think he sounds better I think you know he drives me crazy sometimes when he talks but I think he's getting better at it I think he's trying to be a little bit more reasonable you know and try to appeal to more people because of that you know that effort to be more reasonable like he's he's changed his mind about a lot of things he's talking about legalizing marijuana he's talking about all these different things that are like where you know you're going to get a lot of different responses from like the hardcore Republicans are not going to be for that you know any any uh idea of abortion the hardcore right-wing or not interested at all and any restrictions on abortion at all you get your hardcore left ring so it's the mostly it's the people in the middle abortion is a good one right because most people are like no one should be able to tell you what you could do with your body but also aborting an eight-month-old fetus is kind of [ __ ] insane yeah I mean I the funny thing and I've been saying this forever is that almost everybody agrees on the basics on abortion we're supposed to not be able to even talk about it but most people believe that abortion is negative that if you've got a blastula right a clump of cells doesn't yet have a nervous system that you have the right to terminate that pregnancy and that the farther you go through that pregnancy the less right you have and most people are incredibly queasy about it I think as they should be in the third trimester and you know that's what we agree on and so it's really the extremists on both sides um that we are up against but to the question of what Trump is doing with an issue like this I want to make a couple points one I think there are two issues that are getting tangled one I think he's politically going to some places that are not traditionally Republican because I don't even think I think he's destroyed the Republican party I I just don't see the same Republican party I remember at all I see a different thing and it's fly it's a magga party yeah it's a magga party right exactly and that's a very different thing because I see Maga as mostly the labor faction that was Cut Loose by the Democrats and the Clinton Administration and so they've now found a home under Maga interesting right like cuz blue collar people were generally um Union people which were generally Democrats totally and then Clinton turned the Democratic party into a second corporate party so that those people were homeless and then Trump picked them up as Maga and they're now under the Republican Banner but it doesn't read like the Republican party at all to me and now it's picked up a you know a a I don't want to say technocratic that's dismissive but it's got this this Silicon Valley component to it yes that's recent yep that's recent over the last year yeah it is interesting right because we did Growing Up always associate unions and blueco collar people with voting Democrat because Democrats were looking out for the middle class looking out for people's best interest supporting unions and fair wages and funding schools and all that kind of stuff keeping neighborhood safe and Republicans were more like small government [ __ ] you figure it out I don't want to pay taxes yeah stingy and they were the ones that are encouraging War yep which is crazy today that you have this massive 180° shift and the Democrats are talking about how important it is that we keep funding Ukraine and that you know we have some sort of an whether you pro- Hamas or Pro Palestine I should say or whether you're pro- Israel there's involvement in that no one is saying neither no Democrats are saying we need to get the [ __ ] out of there right they're saying we need to free Palestine oh okay how are you gonna do that how are you gonna do that what do you how much is involved in that are you gonna bring in people you gonna send people there like what are you going to do are you going to kill people for this what are we doing the Democrats are you guys are looking for war you're not looking for peaceful Solutions like this is kind of weird this is interesting you know that we need to beat Russia are you out of your [ __ ] mind are you serious do you know how big that placees do you know how much military force is behind Putin are you what are you talking about what are you talking like what if he just decides to go nuclear at any point in time if he gets pressured you keep advancing further and further into Russia and he's like I'll just end this right now I'll just turn Kiev into a [ __ ] sandbox boom yeah and then what do we do no it's it's insane and the hardest part I'm sure you have these people in your life too but um let's just take my parents for a second okay my parents are good people lifelong Democrats they live in LA surrounded by Hollywood types they cannot seem to grasp the fact that the party that they believed in is now doing the inverse of everything they signed up for exactly because the New York Times rephrases everything so it seems like the values are still there right which is wild it's crazy and if you're not a New York Times reader it's you can barely figure out what these people are talking about did you see the article that I posted on my Instagram that's a title of a New York Times article for today which one Jamie P pull this up I want I want Brett to see this so you know this is real this isn't the Babylon B this is an actual New York Times article you see it yeah this is so crazy it's really hard to believe that someone would print this and the New York Times would say yeah we like it put it out there I I'm not quite sure what to expect oh yeah of course the Constitution is sacred is it also dangerous right one of the biggest threats to America politics might be the country's founding document what the [ __ ] are you talking about yeah one of the biggest threats to America's politics might be one of the greatest documents that any country was ever founded on if not the greatest ever mhm that could be a threat to America's politics what politics are we talking about like what how could you possibly Gaslight me enough to go along with you on this yeah it it's incredible I mean it's on the one hand completely predictable right because there's obviously an authoritarian Force there that just grinds its teeth at night over the Constitution and the fact that it prevents it from doing things that it just wants to do last week you know and so of course there like scratching their heads like can we come up with an argument for why it might be time to get rid of that thing and of course if you're a normal thinking person this is complete Insanity but if you're a New York Times reader I'm sure that fits with the kind of ethos that's been cultivated well this is why a person like Trump is so important to them because if you don't have someone that is an imminent threat on the horizon in 3 months it's very difficult to justify all this [ __ ] so if you have KLA Harris and she's competing against Ronda santis if it's just K Harris and Ronda sandis and Trump doesn't exist maybe he died maybe he died in the last few years you know what how could you you you wouldn't be able to make that argument you wouldn't there there's no imminent threat right right let's say Mitt Romney let's say someone even more moderate as a republican even more palatable you can't make that you can't make that argument that we don't need we can't have a First Amendment because the first amendment is getting in the way the first amendment is allowing people to say things that aren't true misinformation and disinformation and you know we're right here we're September 2nd um I think yesterday was the first day where Brazil banned Twitter I know so X is illegal to have in Brazil as of today as of yesterday not only is it illegal but you go through it through a VPN and they will charge you $8,000 a day I know it's it's incredible that we are watching this insane but I would remind you they did pull this stuff when it was Mitt Romney when it was George W bush right the rhetoric was still existential threat right and they always have particular versions of this right not not as ramped up as this is this is like Hitler Hitler talk this isn't they never talked about M Romney like he was Hitler I agree and as I've been saying since the beginning of this electoral cycle they fear Bobby Kennedy far more than they fear Trump because actually Trump gives them the only argument for their existence that is functional right they don't have an affirmative argument for why they should be in power but being the alternative to Trump is you know that's a that's a pitch right um so we are now somewhere pretty interesting in the sense that I think you know to the faithful that argument still works but to a larger and larger group of people they're seeing right through it yeah they're understanding we first of all we lived through four years of trump right right they were good aspects there were bad aspects but you know it it was not distinguished as some moment of you know total failure of our system or something right you know there were a lot of elements of it that were very positive right that's that's a and that's where a fun meme is there's a fun meme that someone made about how uh you're telling me that he's going to do these things that he didn't when he was in office and you're telling me that you're going to do these things that you didn't do and you're in office now right like what and add to that you're doing the things that you're accusing him of intending to do right all this law fair stuff that's frightening they're weaponizing the courts yeah and they're weaponizing the courts over what was a misdemeanor with uh that's already if you look at the like Bill akman had a post that he made on Twitter laying out the legality of this 34 count um thing that they convicted him of that this is essentially an accounting error or deception that's a misdemeanor that is past the statute of limitations not only that but I don't think you have to really even squint at it to see that it's just simply unconstitutional to point the courts at particular people and not other people right right we have a constitutional right to equal protection under the law and obviously they are setting a different standard for Trump because they want to keep him tied up in court maybe they want to lock him up and put him in prison but whatever they're doing is unamerican it is anti-am and very dangerous because you've set a precedent now now let's imagine like we've gone through shifts in this country where we leaned heavily left like during the Carter Administration was run by Sirus Lefty you know and then what if now it is run by a hardcore right-winger what if there's some sort of an attack on American soil and it ramps up patriotism and people get real angry and and right the you know just like the left has moved so far left that if you're not in favor of hormone blockers for kids somehow you're transphobic and you're a big bigot like somehow or another if you're not in favor of that you're a bigot what if it gets so right that if you're not in favor of you know stops and frisks all over the country to for everyone than somehow or another you're uh anti- safety of the nation and if you're not in favor of no knock raids on people's homes with no warrants that somehow or another you're a danger to our democracy like it can go really creepy far right just like it's really creepy far left and then they're utilizing the courts if they fill the courts up with a bunch of Hardcore Republicans now you're utilizing the courts against people in a way that you would find very offensive because you've made it you set a precedent right and and I think actually we are already living this nightmare in one way because what they did was loaded Powers into the executive branch that were never supposed to be there they created emperor likee discretion and they gave those powers to the president I think believing that they would never be in the hands of anybody that wasn't on their team right and I'm not talking red or blue right I'm talking about inside versus outside and one of the reasons that I think the reaction to Trump is what it was is that he was taking over an office that had been given all of these exotic tools that he could in principle use against anybody these are tools that are absolutely a violation of our Constitution and yet they exist there there and so the need to prevent him from having access to those things was existential in their mind and so anyway the point is they created tools they never expected to be in the hands of someone else and that is the situation that's the scenario you're describing here as well why do you think the Multiverse is [ __ ] I just don't think it makes any sense because um if you take the Multiverse literally so let me back up a second okay we have a principle that tells us more or less what is true called parsimony right we take the simplest explanation that accounts for what we observe and we imagine it's true and there's a little imperfection in there but if you had all the information it would it would work I think perfectly and then there's a flaw in how we apply it the Multiverse is analytically very simple right it's just one move oh there are an infinite number of universes in every moment there are an infinite number of things that could happen and a universe is created for each one that's very simple I just said it in one sentence on the other hand at the Practical level it couldn't possibly be more wasteful and absurd right and the idea that you know there's going to be a different there's going to be two universes you're going to double the universe because I just move my glasses and we need one Universe in which I didn't and one Universe in which I did and then each of those universes is going to PR proliferate out from each moment this does not make any sense so I think what it is is this is just part of the process of discovery if you imagine an infinite number of proliferating universes from each branching point right that accounts that allows us to understand we could describe it that way and it ows us to understand the universe as we observe it now the question is what's really going on that allows that to take place without the proliferation of universes that's why I think it's wrong it's it's it's the intermediate it's the immature analytical point at which we have noticed that something is going on we know we need to explain it and we haven't yet stood in the right place to explain it in a way that's actually efficient so what we're doing is we're explaining it in a way that if you typed it out it's it's one tweet but isn't existence itself insane the universe itself is insane subatomic particles are insane going all the way out to solar nurseries they're it's all insane the whole thing's insane it's insane in scope it's insane in size it's insane in its complexity it's almost incomprehensible almost incomprehensible so why would it be more incomprehensible if it was there was infinite variety and infinite numbers of them it would just be a different level of crazy that we weren't aware of well no it no I mean I don't think so because it's not a different level if let's just agree that the Universe the size of it is impossible to actually comprehend I think it's it's literally impossible we just look at it as a number it's a small number actually you look at it oh like what's the most recent the James Wood telescope the most recent Advanced versions of it they're talking about 22 two billion plus years for the Big Bang they're looking at that now because of the um because of the structure of some galaxies that shouldn't exist shouldn't exist in the time period of which would they would have to be formed in a certain amount of years and so there there's story there's it's it's very contentious but there's some of these people studying the results that seem to believe it's very quite possible that you you might want to push that date back for whatever the Big Bang is right okay and then there Penrose who thinks it's like a constant cycle right I'm I'm open to all these ideas except ones like the Multiverse because let's put it this way okay you haven't solved a problem by invoking the Multiverse what you've done is you've caused a problem that is like the original problem that you had raised to the infinity right and so my feeling is anytime you've made the problem the philosophical problem you had that we all admit is really really difficult infinitely worse you probably made a wrong move I don't know about that I don't I don't think that's necessarily true because just because we haven't solved the problem of this immense thing that's impossible to grasp it doesn't mean it can't be way bigger than we even imagine in a concept that's impossible to grasp and there's got to be some reason why so many people are entertaining this Multiverse Theory it's not well that's just because we're not very we're because we're descendants of chimp likee ancestors and we have limited tools to bring to bear to this sort exciting right it's exciting it's a good way to think of it as if you think of it as a temporary stand in for whatever the answer is that's going to Dawn us on us at some point it's fine it's it's a good it's a good thought problem but imagining that it's real you know you said you know maybe the problem is infinitely big bigger than we thought it's not infinitely bigger it's the rate of growth of the problem is every instant needs multiple universes for the most trivial of modifications I'm sorry that just does not sound like nature to me I think it sounds like the universe though and I don't think the universe necessarily sounds like nature nature is what we see here but what we see everywhere is so bizarre black holes are so bizarre supernovas they're so [ __ ] bizarre are the fact that there's a a a giant black hole in the center of every Galaxy that's 1 half 1% of the mass of the Galaxy and it might be another Universe inside of that thing but see I actually think that one I mean I was waiting for that Discovery for my whole life and when I finally heard it was like okay now I understand why you've got this huge swirling thing you've got this giant gravitational mass in the center that you can't see now it makes sense so that was like a simplifying Discovery Well the existence of the black hole but the concept of a black hole being essentially a portal into another Universe where there's hundreds of billions of galaxies each one with a black hole in the center of them you go through each one of those you have hundreds of billions of galaxies each one with a black hole in the center of it and you just keep doing that forever and ever and ever isn't that kind of the Multiverse well let's put it this way I I mean a we're a little bit safe here because by definition there's no way of peering into those things right for now I think forever you think AI like get a grasp on this in a better way well it might be able to Quantum Computing a thousand years from now might have a the problem is that there's a physical reason you can't for the same reason the light can't get out there's no way to peer in right so am I cool with the idea that maybe there's an equilibrium that you know a black hole where things once they're pulled in over that threshold they never emerge again and that maybe they emerge somewhere else yeah I could imagine parallel things that are entangled in this this way that does not sound inherently like an insane cheat to me because what we have is a mystery staring Us in the face in every one of those uh Ultram massive black holes what the hell is it right um what about a future in which we develop some sort of propulsion system and attach it to a drone that's not it's not based on fuel it's based on some sort of gravity thing it allows you to Trav immense distances very quickly and then we could actually get that [ __ ] way out there take some video and bring it back well you're going to avoid the warranty I'm pretty sure well it's okay it's all funded by the government infinite money we just print checks oh just tax people and and we blame the UFOs yeah um which is what I think they're doing by the way using the UFO story yeah oh yeah I think so too yeah I think I think both things are true I think we have been visited and I think it only makes sense I think there is life out there because it doesn't make sense there isn't and I think I would visit if I got a thousand years more advanced than we are and we found out about some Planet that's 2,000 light years away that actually is making nuclear bombs [ __ ] yeah I'd visit course i''d visit 100% so of course they would visit and of course they would want to protect us from the overwhelming shock to our culture that would in undoubtedly be thrust upon on us if we were if we were confronted with a city-sized spaceship that's hovering over Detroit just just hovering over there it would send the world into a massive Panic no one would know what to do I'm not sure about this so I I want to I want to just adjust a couple things you said from my perspective you're absolutely right it would be there's every reason to think there's lots of life in the universe right and that life that attains a certain level of cognition will inevitably create technologies that break boundaries that it can't biologically break so it'll you know Traverse some uh distance across space but the real question is how many islands of Life what's the closest one how traversible is the cosmos right it may not be traversible at all at those scales or it may be much more traversible than we know and then it doesn't take very many islands of life to have somebody visit us but as to your last point I actually well first of all everybody every thinking person I know is pretty troubled by the present and you know a hostile alien force would freak everybody out but I a I can't see a reason why aliens would be hostile doesn't make sense to me they don't have to be hostile just just being there right but then if they were just there first of all we've been training for this right we all spend a lot of time on sci-fi stories of aliens and all that stuff right so I think actually we wouldn't be impressed enough because we've seen really impressive stuff on screens again and again and again if you actually heard that this stuff was going on if the ship showed up in the sky and you could see it with your ban ular I think the question is well are they friendly and what do they have to say right I honestly don't think you know I don't it'd be if I heard about it I would think that's got to be good news because right but to anyone in power this would be a gigantic threat to anyone trying to pass off some sort of narrative that this is the the the we in the lead in terms of like the moral ground in the world and that we're you know we're the wisest we're the best we're going to make decisions for everybody that would throw a monkey wrench completely into the gears of that there would be totally so they would lose all control they would lose all authority they would lose all respect but why are the aliens abiding by their plan cuz I don't think they are I don't I that's not what I'm saying I think that would freak them out and they're not doing that right I think if they are real and they do observe us they probably observe us in a in a way where there's a limited amount of detection and I think there's probably if I was going to acclimate a culture to the idea that they're not alone I would do it slowly that way you could have the same ultimate effect eventually and maybe maybe help them along their evolution as well along their cultural Evolution to like slowly introduce this concept that they're not alone and then do it over decades which is exactly what's been happening and and the acceptance of it has changed from when I was a kid you talk about UFOs you're a [ __ ] C 100% yeah straight up cook and then the Bob Bazar story came around and everybody was like hey wait a minute is that guy telling the truth and that was like 89 but still seemed like [ __ ] and then there was a bunch of questions about his education background ah [ __ ] artist but then over time more people have seen enough things like Commander David fraver and more people have seen things that like have no explanation whatsoever and you start hearing stories from highlevel people about retrieved vehicles and this and that it's more and more and more and more and more normal people talking about it and more and more professors at Stanford and the New York Times in 2017 Prince of story and respected um Air Force pilots are coming out and talking about it it's a different world and it's a different world just over a few decades yeah it's a different world but I still haven't seen anything that isn't best explained as scop bu [ __ ] right I haven't either but but also I haven't seen anything right these are unique experiences and the problem with unique experiences is everyone has to just sort of trust you unless you have some kind of evidence everyone has to trust you even if it's a whole town it's a unique experience in the town a mass hypnosis bunch of [ __ ] artists they're taking advantage of it for tourism like Virginia and Brazil the entire town saw this thing so how you know I'm not sure if it's all [ __ ] I think there's some [ __ ] mixed in with some real stuff that's what I think this is my conclusion over time because if you go back to like the Kenneth Arnold sightings the 1950s we didn't have anything that moved like that nobody did there's no way anybody had anything in the 1950s that could shoot across the sky soundless make no noise skip like flying saucers is what the way he described it there was a I think there was nine of them together like there was no we didn't have anything like that so maybe occasionally we're visited maybe occasionally they show themselves and maybe they have been here Tucker thinks they've been here all along he thinks they're a part of this world that we live in they just they they hide from us and maybe they live in the ocean yeah I mean you know you you know what my stock and trade is and my feeling is I'm perfectly open to the possibility that there are alien intelligences in the universe I'm perfectly open to the possibility that they would stop by um but I'm going to need something like evidence that isn't better explained by terrestrial [ __ ] because frankly the terrestrial [ __ ] is guaranteed right if they had some sort of a drone that used gravity and could zip across the sky like you know 10x light speed they wouldn't tell you about it yeah but I don't even think it's I don't look I think the fact and I think we may have talked about this before but the fact that these things are doing stuff that's beyond any terrestrial craft that we know of and they're silent that's because they're not craft they're projections of some kind and so they're visually very compelling but they do not disturb the atoms that they're passing through because they're not they don't displace anything so you think the radar when they use radar and they find these things what do you think that is oh man I think that's people putting blips on other people's radar and it's not the only place in history that that shows up right so you could force a blip onto someone's radar hacked the radar sure and Heck if you had a how would you do that uh well these Radars are all computerized well let's talk about the David fraver one right because the this is 2004 so it kind of limits our ability in terms of you know you have high technology you have extremely powerful computers you have a lot of stuff going on but we we certainly don't have what we have 20 years later right yep we all agree to that now they have multiple different uh mediums multiple different types of evidence they have visual eyewitness testimony and more than one jet sees this thing more than one pilot sees this thing they all have the same story this thing Zips across the sky they have the radar that shows that this thing went from 50,000 ft above sea level to 50 in a second mhm they have this thing moving at speeds on video where you see it move on video that would turn anybody inside it into Jello y so it's whatever the [ __ ] this is it's doing something that we didn't think human beings could do right so you have three different ways of verifying that there is something there you have the radar you have video you have eyewitness testimony you have this thing flying to the cat point where they were ini initially supposed to when they were doing their training Mission they were supposed to meet yep there's a lot of weird [ __ ] with that yep but do you think they could fake that yeah I mean I I do think you could fake it because you just have multiple attack vectors so how would you fake um a visual sighting from trained fighterjet pilots over the ocean a projection a projection yeah and where would the projector be I don't know could could be could be coming from space could be from an aircraft CRA that's flying too high to see I don't know but and how would you do that what technology would enable you to make something look I mean they even had a disturbance of the ocean floor or of the ocean surface rather so I'm not an expert in these Technologies I'm not claiming that I could do it but what I'm saying is a you have a huge amount of classified technology just imagine for a second how useful it would be to be able to convince your enemy that you had aircraft in its airspace that they were able to exceed limits whatever so do you think we've worked on the ability to fool an enemy into believing that we have capacities that we don't have of course so given that those programs are essentially certain to exist do you think anybody's ever going to have the idea that actually in this case it would be useful if some you know unassailable authorities were to have undeniable experiences that suggest X Y or Z somebody's going to come up with that idea so this would explain why these things are able to stay stationary in 120 knot winds because they're not affected by physical reality they're just images have you I mean I know you have there are incredibly good magicians right who will do stuff in front of you that you know you don't walk out of there thinking the laws of physics have been broken because you understand that mag magic is a genre where you walk in and you agree to suspend your disbelief enough to look through your eyes and register something as if it's violated a law of physics but we all know it's magic right David Blain right exactly an illusion yeah now imagine that you had teams working on Illusions who were going to do so in a context that you would have no concept that that's what had happened because you're so used to trusting what your eyes perceive what your ears hear all of those things so all I'm saying is the evidence that these things exist always hovers in the realm where a ruthless whatever could have faked it right whether that has to do with an MK Ultra you intervention where somebody's been given drugs they don't know they've been given and they've been shown things that they are more open to because they were in a state in which they were in induced openness that's a possibility or a mixture of things you see something you've been brought into a state of openness you accept it more than you think you have because you don't know that anybody tinkered with your wiring I just am waiting to see a piece of evidence that really makes me go huh I don't think we could have done that have you seen any of Gary Nolan stuff on the Metallurgy on the the different samples that they've collected from these supposed down crafts that defy all our understanding of how to create Alloys and how expensive it would be to craft these things let me ask you a question you've got Alloys that are Beyond known human technology and you've got discussion of Alloys that are Beyond human technology M which is it well certainly discussions that's the problem right I mean I don't know uh who see if you can find anything on Gary Nolan's samples so Diana pulco who'd been on the podcast before she she had done some Excavating of these areas where they purport that these things had crashed and they could still find pieces which uh made me a little skeptical as soon as I see you still you didn't pick them all up like why wouldn't they send someone out there to pick everything up why would you you would sift yeah you would take truck loads and you would get every single scrap of that stuff but if I wanted someone to believe that a craft was there I'd leave a bunch of [ __ ] out in the field I'd blindfold them like they did I'd take them out to this spot this is the spot look around oh look you found a piece like how do you not know where all the [ __ ] pieces are if this thing crashed 30 years ago why didn't you go over this place with a fine tooth comb people do that for arrow heads why would you not do that for alien craft metal of course you would yeah also there's the other problem is like why are these things crashing right exactly they're so [ __ ] good they get here from another dimension they're partying they got here and they just they don't know they're they get a hold of some [ __ ] Jack Daniels next thing you know they're crashed in the sand they're having a good time in America it's also that's a big problem too A lot of these sightings are in America they're like the if you look at the chart there's sightings overseas for sure they they happen all over the world undoubtedly but they Happ a lot more here have an alien problem across many different dimensions yeah we do we go we have multiple alien problems we have them [Laughter] all that's another thing that they're gaslighting people on the idea that they would let people come over here so they would vote of course they would that's a great way to like get voters so these are these pieces that Gary Nolan claims to have had and what does it say about these pieces I mean this is well I could only find it in the video I was trying to find us explosion okay so this is from uh how do you say that uba tuba uba tuba Brazil so this is a different it might be a different pronunciation in Portuguese but this is a a different crash than the Virginia one so there's been multiple sightings and things happen in Brazil apparently Brazil also has a little bit of an alien problem oh yeah a little little one but the Virginia one is wild that's the most wild one yeah but those those um fragments there appeared from where I'm sitting to look like they were made of pixels let me say that again that could just be a low resolution photograph no no it's I'm kidding with you I'm just saying we're looking at that thing as if we know that it's a fragment of metal and we're being told that it has properties that are unfamiliar but what we have the evidence you and I have is pixels right sure we're not there we don't get to see these things also even if you gave it to me what how's that going to help me I have no idea what you're yeah I don't know what that is yeah I don't even even if you gave me the microscopes to look at it I'm like what am I seeing right I'm seeing layers is that what this is like how do they do this right so that's why look you know I want a team of honest biologists to look at some space biology that would settle this immediately yeah immediately immediately yeah like if there really is a body just one what everyone says there's frozen body somewhere just one that's all it takes we can settle this tomorrow let some people in okay here it is a ledged extraterrestrial metal from the bottom of a wedge shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers 1 to four microns dark bis smouth and 100 to 200 microns silver magnesium zinc alloy each of six pieces received from US Army Source were formed with a curvature that tapered wow that is incredibly compelling metallurgical narrative if it's true transmitted by pixels right that's the problem and that's the problem also the late 1940s how many of these [ __ ] things crashed oh it's happening all the time that's the weird thing right like think of how many Corvettes there are yeah you don't find a whole lot of them like on the side of the road crashed yeah it's not a common thing no he's finding Corvettes in the in the in the the desert look I found a Corvette there's so many Corvettes there's Millions of them right and yet yet most of them make it from A to B but these [ __ ] UFOs they're they're so smart they can come here from other planets and they just boom well maybe we're not on their map and so they're like or maybe the only people that are the only uh intelligent life outside of this planet that's willing to do it they're like Australian Outback people they're like those those wild dudes who uh go overlanding in the you you know Australia has a a big overlanding culture where they build up these vehicles and they take them off into the bush and they they live off of them my friend Adam Greentree does that these people are wild Australians are wild folk so maybe they like the Australians of space and they just overlanding and it doesn't always work out overlanding they're these nuts that like you know there's people that go out in the desert for 30 days and they have enough food and water and they have a solar thing on the top of their their rig and that's it charges their cell phone and they have you know Jerry cans of petrol so they could keep going and well I kind of dig this look if if if it were possible to Traverse vast empty spaces and go to places that were known to have life I'd be all about that but it would only be the real hardcore adventurers that would take that chance and maybe those people are nuts maybe those alien people are nuts just like the human people are nuts that do that kind of stuff right they like to get into trouble winch themselves out and wild people they got winches on their spaceship exactly well you got also think here's here's another problem with the idea of them being biological um we it's far more effective to send things that are nonbiological in space like what we're doing on Mars we we don't have a base on Mars allegedly but there's a lot of nutty people that believe we do but um they do certainly have some robots that are on Mars that's Gathering data and they're doing it right now and so you don't have to worry about radiation all the things that kill people make people sad if we lose one of those Rovers who gives a [ __ ] make another Rover ship it out there fly it nobody cares if you lose 50 people if you take 50 people and they die on your Mars trip you're going to have Congress is going to be meeting about it what are we doing why are we killing people let's not do that and so as time goes on and as technology improves and as sentient artificial intelligence becomes a better option for sending some intelligent robot to gather data why would why would anybody go through space as a a living creature it seems stupid stupid yeah I mean I agree on the other hand I I probably you know why why do I want to go to the Amazon right I can I can see yeah but you can go to the Amazon that's the thing humans live in the Amazon humans don't live on Mars it's way simpler to send a robot to Mars why would we go to Mars yeah yeah there is a good reason to go to Mars and the good reason to go to Mars is we're in Jeopardy here and I don't think Mars is in any way a long-term plan for survival of people but there are processes unfolding here in our solar system that put us in Jeopardy potentially here on Earth and having just at least an outpost of people uh somewhere else would not be a bad hedge against that so I I think I think we're not close enough but right um but but it's it's definitely a potential reality and if it was possible it would be a good move if you wanted to hedge your bets yep and we should hedge our bets because elon's position on this yeah you know that we're in danger of the human race going extinct from a variety of different things not even our own fault it could be a a bunch of different things asteroid impacts super volcanoes lot a lot of stuff can happen right here that kills us all space weather oh yeah [ __ ] some Supernova Too Close sorry everything's cooked micronova which is actually a viable hypothesis apparently this is something that can happen it doesn't necessarily destroy the star you can have a burst of radiation that radically alters things down here oh fun yeah and maybe that's what happened to Mars which is also part of the problem because Mars at one time had an atmosphere Mars at one time had liquid water we don't really know what happened yeah no I agreed Mars is probably a little closer to the Sun at one point in time in the past it turns out that our solar system is dynamic and dangerous in a way that we don't really know because our study is to has exist has happened in a period of calm and we're really looking at a very brief amount of time that we can measure in terms of a human experience it's so brief in terms of what we know about what human beings have experienced and then we have to go back to like core samples you have to go back to oh appears that there was Earth one and Earth one was hit by another planet that's how we get the Moon and then the moon the moon's crazy yeah it what a crazy thing that this thing stabilizes us it's in the exact same right position the exact right size to make sure that we can exist as we exist right now s like somebody put it there it's a beautiful thing it's a beautiful thing but it's it's kind of kooky it's almost like someone put it there it's very convenient yeah yeah I mean and of course there's an anthropic principle in play here as well because the question is are we here because we do have a moon to play the exact right role you know this this planet has a lot a lot going for it and one way to think about that is wow that can't be that's no accident or no we're here to talk about it because those accidents happen to line up here right or yeah it's odd but that's also why there's not life everywhere right and this does happen and when it does happen then you get some life yeah but until it happens and the the variety of temperature changes over the course of the seasons is just too vast for what we understand as biological life to survive but then or at least intelligent see it's not just biological it has to be intelligent it has to be able to manipulate its environment it has to be able to record the previous thoughts in history develop language and it's really stuff to do tough to do that if you're in an environment and you've adapted to an environment that can vary by 300 degrees right no you're exactly right that the number of things that have to stack up before you get to the point that you're pondering why you're here is many you have to have food you have to have food and you have to have your feet up and going why are we here yeah and you have to not be going routinely extinct because suddenly go HeyWire exactly this is why this kind of thought emerges once people sort of settle down yep and get some food start hurding some cattle and go hey stars are kind of crazy yeah you ever looked up instead everybody's just looking in the bushes for what's going to killed them was going to eat me you know it's funny I've spent a lot of time watching animals they don't look at the sky oh that's interesting it is interesting that is very interesting that's very interesting yeah I mean and you know I get it it's not productive until you get pretty deep into thinking about you know abstract things as a way of finding what you're not doing right well we look outward and we look inward which is really like next level right like we look look at microscopes go what is going on here right we're all filled with bacteria this is this whole thing's nuts like we're not even an individual right we're an ecos system we're individual ecosystems and the healthier your ecosystem is the healthier you are as an individual because you're not really an individual wow if we learn so this this is something Heather and I talk about frequently is that we have more or less an epidemic of people who are maybe smart but they don't know the difference between a complex system and a complicated one and so they take their complicated system thinking into complex systems what is the difference whether it's predictable so for example your computer or your phone you know it's beyond your comprehension or my comprehension but it is well understood how it works there's nothing mysterious about the outputs right it's it's a it's a system that all of the the functionality of is is well understood um but a biological creature isn't anything like this and so when you intervene you know when they give you a drug and they think they know what it's going to do they're intervening in a system in which things are connected in ways that they've not yet discovered and they can't anticipate the cascading effects so you know we keep getting upended by the sense of like you know oh this thing is wrong with you here's a biochemical intervention that will adjust one parameter and put you back into health no almost never true right it is occasionally true if somebody is quite sick that you can push them back in the direction of homeostasis you can rescue them but the idea of improving Health with an intervention is almost always the wrong approach right you should be restoring the environment in which the body knows how to take care of itself because it is a complex system given the right inputs given the right parameters it has all of the processes necessary to keep it functioning but if you think you're going to improve it by intervening you're almost certain to do harm H but what about medication for people that have like type 1 diabetes right but the question is why do you have type 1 diabetes but it's a genetic thing yeah but is it a it you think our ancestors were walking around with type 1 diabetes they might have and just died off well but then you would have a very low rate of that Gene so our ancestors so