Charlie Kirk and Seth Gruber on Why the Church Must Stand Against Abortion in America

I don't know about you guys, but I can't stop talking about Charlie Kirk. All of my talks have been about what his [music] life meant to Americans, to believers, and what we need to learn from the most courageous man that I've ever met. So, we wanted to bring this conversation that Charlie and I had in October of 2022 [music] to you at a Freedom Night in America event at Dream City Church in Phoenix for the first White [music] Rose Resistance tour that we had ever done. We had a crowd of about 1500 people and Charlie and I discussed why the church must stand. This was right on the heels of Turning Point USA faith being launched. um the pro-life apologetic defense of the unborn and how pro-abortion arguments [music] always expand the net of people whose rights and lives [music] can also be endangered if if you give credence to the proabortion worldview. We discussed the quote unquote proabortion hardcase arguments and then we did some incredible question and answer with the audience. So, from 3 years ago, we wanted to bring you this incredible conversation with Charlie and I. [music] I hope it blesses you as much as it blessed me. Wear your [music] We Are Charlie bracelet and let's do this for Charlie, for America, and for the next generation. One other story I want to focus on about the need to fight early because I know so many of you here tonight um are very worried about the future that your children are entering. There's a story that has really disturbed me over the last couple days. It's not here in Arizona, but it very well could be soon. And it's around this theme of what happens when you do not intervene with truth early because you're afraid of offending somebody. I don't know if you've been following the story of the volleyball girls team uh the girls volleyball team in Vermont. It's very very instructive. So there is an all girls volleyball team in Vermont um where an individual who uh claimed to be a woman, a man who thinks he's a woman comes and says I want to participate on this volleyball team. Uh Vermont uh being Vermont's they said sure why not. and they allowed it, you know, that to happen. The individual then was granted access to the locker room to change along other girl alongside other girls and people said nothing, right? Or, you know, just kind of little musings or rumblings. Um, well, then the man who thinks he's a woman started to say somewhat derogatory and kind of offensive things to the other young ladies on the volleyball team, making the young ladies uncomfortable. Teenage girls, by the way. So they report this to, you know, the coach and to the leaders of the school saying, "Hey, you know, we're not trying to be intolerant here. We're not trying to be mean, but we're really not comfortable cuz he's saying some rather offensive things and we don't like changing around, you know, this individual." And so what ended up happening is now that girl's volleyball team is being disciplined for being intolerant for not wanting to forcibly change around another male in the high school. Now, this is a real you could check it out yourself. It's it's a huge story where they are facing disciplinary action for what basically they're um describing as um you know being bigoted towards a trans person. And isn't that interesting how this marks in sequential steps where first they say, "Hey, you must tolerate something, then you must accept something, then you must celebrate that something, and then you must participate in that something." And it it's it's so shocking, isn't it? Because some people say, "Oh, come on. What's the big deal of just tolerating the fact that men can participate in female sports?" Well, despite the fact that it is not fair and it's cheating and it's wrong. That aside, now all of a sudden, the new standard being set in Vermont, this what happens when you do not fight early for truth, when you're afraid of people, you know, being offended by what you have to say is the new standard that is being set is that you could very well face disciplinary action. You could get in trouble if you dare not want to change around another man as a woman, as an athlete in Vermont. And I know what a lot of you are probably thinking. You're probably thinking, where are the adult men in this community that are allowing this to happen? [applause] And the answer, the answer is complex but simple. I know that sounds paradoxical, but we could spend an hour on it or 10 seconds. We are living through what CS Lewis predicted as the men without chests. We are living through that right now. You should re read abolition of man. It's a short beautiful book. CS Lewis, one of the great authors of all time, definitely one of the greatest in the 20th century of a society of men without chess, without courage, where we look around and we say, well, you know, I don't I want to be tolerant. And this is where we as Christians have to be prayerful but also very wise, which is if you love God, you must hate evil. Psalm 97:10. And [applause] and this is the opposite of tolerance. This is forced tolerance now. No, it's worse than that. It's forced participation >> that you are not allowed to now be on a volleyball team as a woman if you do not want to share the locker room with a man who makes you feel uncomfortable. All to not want to offend a single person. That's what happens when the strong do not protect the young. When the adults do not come in and set moral standards and moral boundaries, if you ask me, that's much more important than politics. >> That's much more important than red and blue and all that stuff. It's a question of right and wrong. It's a question of the moral compass of a society. And if there's just one thing, and it actually ties in beautifully to what Seth and I are going to talk about tonight, you can judge a society based on what people with strength do or do not do to protect those of people. You could call them weak, but that sounds insulting. people that are not as strong, people that are not as big, people that are not not as powerful. Because a nation that says it doesn't matter if we abort a million lives every single year, why on earth would they then care about a teenager that has to do something makes them uncomfortable? It's the same sort of moral slide that allows that to happen. But we're going to address that head-on tonight. And I could say collectively, we're not going to put up with it here in Scottsdale. We're not going to put up with it here in the state of Arizona. We're not going to allow our children to be taken advantage of. It's not going to happen. And that's a beautiful segue, [applause] beautiful segue to what I consider to be one of the most articulate and charismatic pro-life speakers in the country. He's a very special person. I've known him for a while. He's doing an entire tour around the issue of abortion. Um, I don't like giving trigger warnings, but I know that there's people that are here that probably don't even know what you're about to experience. If you hear something and it offends you, try to just anchor yourself in that seat to the end of the program tonight because I think God has something in store for you to challenge maybe your worldview about what is abortion, what is a human being, and what how should we talk about this issue because I if you're like me, I am exhausted with the political advertising around abortion in this state. Are you? It is non-stop. [applause] and I'm just looking for a little bit of clarity on the subject. And boy, you're about to get you're about to get a fair dose of clarity. Please join me in welcoming Seth Gruber to the stage. [cheering] How are you? [applause] Thank you guys. Give it up for our wonderful team. They always That's It's amazing. [applause and cheering] So great. All right, Seth, welcome to Freedom Night. Thank you, brother. >> Let's dive right in. Um, so why should we as Christians care about the issue of abortion? I hear from pastors all the time, too controversial. The Bible is not clear. I only preach the gospel. The floor is yours. >> That's right. Yeah. Just preach the gospel. Well, firstly, let me just say, you guys know this already, but just as a reminder, Charlie Kirk is probably one of the most outspoken conservative pundits who regularly addresses the issue of life and the plight of the unborn as frequently as he can on his program. And if I could bottle the intellectual, spiritual, and moral courage and clarity of Charlie Kirk and inject it like a booster shot into the arms of American pastors, I could end abortion in this country in one year. Don't worry, I WON'T MANDATE IT. I won't mandate it. >> Hold on. The booster shot hopefully would work. and amongst other things. >> That's right. That's right. Yeah. [laughter] >> I I couldn't resist. I'm so sorry. >> That's right. Well, um to your question, brother, and thank you so much for this privilege and opportunity. Uh Charlie and Turning Point Faith are sponsoring a nationwide church tour I'm doing right now called the White Rose Resistance National Life Tour. And the White Rose Resistance is the name of my new organization. We have a table out back. Would love to give you guys a hug and connect afterwards. Um so, there really is no option for a Christian to be pro-choice or proabortion. uh for one simple reason. Your savior entered human history in a uterus to redeem mankind from their sins. Jesus Christ is the greatest former fetus to have ever existed who actually chose to identify with you at your most vulnerable stage, the prenatal stage. And one more thing from the scriptures, Charlie, I know knit together fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139, beautiful. We could unpack it all day. Let me go to a different one. In Luke 1, it says that the prenatal John the Baptist leaps in the womb. Remember, because he recognizes his prenatal deity, Savior, in Mary's womb, in the same room. And because Christ is fully God and fully human at the moment of conception, and God knits life together in the womb, it means that the prenatal Jesus is knitting himself together in the womb while he knits the prenatal John the Baptist together in the womb, while he knits himself together in a womb that he once knit together when Mary was in the womb of her mother. Christianity is called the incarnation. Welcome to the Christian faith. If you need some wonder brought back into your faith, um, wake up every morning and dwell on the incarnation for a few moments. And so, you read Luke 1 and it says, "The baby leaped in Elizabeth's womb." So, that's referring to the unborn prenatal John the Baptist. Um, what Greek word is used to refer to the prenatal unborn John the Baptist? It's a Greek word bafos. Okay, turn to Luke 2 and it says, "Mary laid baby Jesus in the manger." So this is the infant Christ already outside of the uterero. What Greek word does the author of scripture use to refer to an infant already born? Berephos. Oh, our savior uses the same term to refer to a baby in the womb as a baby outside the womb. Oh, for Christians and pastors who would see no distinction in dignity, value, and worth as well. That that right there you should clip and send to every pastor in America. Right. [laughter] Right. by the way. So, but Seth, you know, some pastors would say it's too controversial of an issue and you're not being very nice. So, I've been a pro-life activist since I was a fetus, Charlie. Um, and uh I'm I'm actually only half joking, brothers and sisters. My You see, my mother was the executive director of a pregnancy resource center in the late 1980s, early 1990s while pregnant with me. uh and she only stepped down from directing that pregnancy center right across the street from Isuza Pacific University when she gave birth to me. And I've been reliably informed by Fouchy and Francis Collins in the Fall of the Science Tyrants. I've been reliably informed that the body in her body is just her body. It was always just her body. There is no other body. Therefore, according to the law of transitive property, the babies my mother was saving as the director of pregnancy resource center were baby the babies I was saving because I was part of her body. I was her body. And so that's why I've been a pro-life activist since I was a fetus. Follow the science, you degenerate Rubes, right? Uh, and we can get into how actually the science of transgenderism and abortion are identical. Very interesting conversation, but I've been trying to get pastors to preach on the issue of abortion for years. I gave my first speech on abortion at 18. I just turned 31. And here's what I was always told. Seth, we don't talk about it because it's political. Or secondly, they say, "Well, we don't want to shame and condemn the the men and women in our church who are post-abortive." Um but as one of my colleagues says, "Pastor silence on abortion does not spare his men and women hurt. It spares them healing." You may have an opportunity to share the gospel in a way to that broken, hurting man or woman such that they could experience forgiveness and healing and redemption and then be used to be a voice against this culture of death because they've been there and they can say, "Don't do what I did." And so for people who say, "Oh, this, you know, it's too contro controversial. We're not going to address it." You're actually causing more harm harm in your congregation, and you're giving the enemy of our soul, Satan himself, a foothold, a stronghold in your congregation to keep men without chess and to keep the hurting women silent who could be leading others into freedom. So, so Seth, let's go through this. Really well said, [applause] by the way. I love having him as a guest. I just get to listen. It's like Bill Federer type energy. Um, let's go through sled. I use it all the time. >> Well, let's follow the science. >> Yeah, let's follow the science, right? >> Is Anthony Fouchy here? We We invited him. I don't >> you I don't think he's Well, he's more than welcome, by the way. I want all to be saved. I really I really do. I mean that. Um, and so sled, size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency. So, I go to a lot of college campuses. I hear a lot of proabortion arguments. You and I were both at Berkeley back toback, I think, day after day. And it just turns out my conversation went to abortion. I think yours obviously did as well, you know, but almost every single one of the pro-abortion arguments can fall into one of these four categories. The acriman sled, sle. So, let's start with size. I will play the po proabortion devil's advocate. But Seth, the fetus is so small and therefore small, not a lot of moral worth. So why do you want to protect something so small? >> Yeah. Well, men are generally larger than women, but that doesn't mean that men have more rights than women. It's not like Shaquille O'Neal has any more rights than Barbara Streryand, right? Our dignity and rights don't come from our size. But notice what the proabortion arguments always do. They point out a difference between the unborn and the born. And then they insert or inject moral value into those differences. So the differences Charlie just referred to size, level of development, environment or location, and degree of dependency. Now notice today most proabortion advocates will not argue that the unborn is not biologically human. That hearkens back to like 30 years ago. They don't really make those arguments anymore. They're fully they're fully willing to admit that it is a human being. But they say, "But look, it's so different than us." So from a 30 or 60,000 foot view, you should just be aware of the fact that this is no different than the arguments to kill the Jews and black men in this country by saying,"Well, look, they're so different than us." You see, our dignity and rights don't come from our cognitive abilities, our accidental properties, or our functions. They come from our human nature. And if you don't ground human rights in the only thing we have in common, we're all human beings. You leave it to the political class and the elite class to define which categories or cognitive abilities must be met to meet their litmus test for personhood. So yes, the baby's less developed. That's the second one. I mean, look at it. It can't it can't feel pain. It's not viable. It doesn't it it's not aware that it's existing. It's not self-aware. It doesn't have any desires. And so because that these are sort of developmental markers on the continuum of human development, they say if you don't have this level of development or function, you're not a person with rights. But it's very easy to debunk all these arguments if you understand the undergirling worldview that they're operating off of. And that undergirling worldview is actually the same worldview that animates transgenderism today. And it's a worldview or let's call it a religion called body self-dualism or gnostic dualism which by the way the church Charlie declared a heresy centuries ago. So gnostic dualism or body self dual dualism is this idea that the real person is not their bodies. The real person are our thoughts, our aims, our consciousness, and our desires. And so the baby might have a human body. Its heart might start beating at 21 days. It might be capable of responding to stimuli according to uh experts in fetal pain as early as about 12 weeks. It might respond to stimuli, but none of that matters because it doesn't have any desires. So it doesn't have a desire to go on living. It's not self-aware of itself. Uh or they say it can't feel pain yet. And so they say those are the markers that must be met before one is a person. So here's one argument. Uh the baby doesn't have a desire to go on living, Charlie. So what's it to them? Ever heard a proabort say the baby doesn't know they're being aborted? So what's it to them? Um let's see. Can we kill people who have suicidal tendencies? Do they desire to go on living? What about Buddhists? What do Buddhists try to reach? Nirvana. I don't think this is possible, guys. But if you reach nirvana, do you know what that means? You eradicate all desires, including I guess the desire to go on living. Oh, like the fetus that you're saying we can rip limb from limb in the womb because they don't have a desire to go on living. I could do this all day. Whatever function they hone in on and say the baby the baby can't display this function right now that I demand they be able to show to me to be a person. You'll find some born person who also can't meet that litmus test for personhood. So here's what proabortion arguments do. Thanks. Is that you put in place the premises that justify your own enslavement. You put in place the premises that justify your own enslavement. Lincoln in preparing for his debates against Steven Douglas would pen a little piece of paper called fragments on slavery in 1854 and and he would use this type of reasoning in the 1858 1859 famous Lincoln Douglas debates. So I want to show you how these arguments are identical because you separate the dignity of the person from the fact that they're humans which means then the Fouchis and the Francis Collins the elite class the Margaret Sangers they get to decide the litmus test for personhood. So here's what this is what Lincoln wrote. It's brilliant. He said okay he was pretending he was in a debate with a slavery supporter and Lincoln said you say A is white and B is black. It is color then the lighter having the right to enslave the darker. Take care. By this rule you are to be a slave to the first man you meet with a skin fairer than your own. Oops. Putting in place the premises that justify your own enslavement. But then Lincoln said, "But you say it is intellect. You say that whites are intellectually the superiors of blacks and therefore have the right to enslave them. Take care again. By this reasoning, you were to be a slave to the first man you meet with an intellect superior to your own. But you say it is a question of interest, says Lincoln, that if you can make it in your interest, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it in his interest, he has the right to enslave you. Do you see what pro-slavery arguments were doing? Rather than arguing that the black man was not a human, they were saying they're not persons because they can't currently exercise certain cognitive abilities or functions that I demand they show me in the present to meet my litmus test for personhood. And so every argument that dehumanizes the unborn by saying they they don't display this cognitive ability or function that I demand they meet can always be applied to some born person outside the womb who at some point in their life will also not be able to evident that very same cognitive ability or function. So whether it was slavery arguments then or abortion arguments now we put in place the premises that justify our own enslavement. Those who murder the unborn therefore cannot be trusted to govern the born. So the the the final D is degree of dependency which is the one that most proifers stumble over. It's probably the best the best argument if you will where the fetus, the baby, the human being is dependent on another. Therefore, you should be able to eliminate that being. But Seth, let's go a little deeper here, which is this really all is a moral argument. Every argument around this comes down to some morality. And absent the church or Christians weighing in on this topic, it is almost always going to yield in the proabortion direction because the secular world does not have any sort of moral standard to be able to argue abortion correctly. It will always come back down to well, it's whatever makes me feel the best, whatever whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. when in Christianity it's actually not really about your feelings or your desires. It's about serving God and doing what he commands. >> And so what what is the morality that drives forward a million abortions a year in America? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the enemy of our souls has no new stories. He has no original ideas. All Satan can do is invert and pervert and copycat. And obviously the rainbow is the greatest example of this in the culture wars today. The rainbow, this sign that God's saying, "I will never wipe you out by water again because of disgusting immorality that was normalized and celebrated." And then the rainbow becomes the symbol of the same type of immorality that caused God's judgment in the first place. So, so Satan can only invert and pervert. And so from a this what Charlie's talking about this detach morality that deifies oursel into modern gods to decide who gets to live and who gets to die. This is not progressive. This is regressive. Child killing and child sacrifice goes right back to the years just following Adam and Eve. This is a very ancient practice. The belief that in sacrificing an adult, a child, a baby to the sex gods, the war gods, the weather gods, the crop gods, the sun gods, right? Uh means that you would receive a blessing in return and you would get to live just a little bit longer. And you see this today in the in the secular moral revolutionary culture. You have um people that make arguments saying, "Well, we need to fund abortions in in poor countries, in black countries, because we have overpopulation and and then too many people it's it's harming the environment, Charlie, and that's causing climate change, which is making Whitela Pokeley, the Aztec sun god, really angry, right?" And I'm actually not joking at the temple. >> That's in California curriculum, by the way. >> Yeah. The chance to the sun god. >> Literally chance to the Aztec sun god. >> Yep. To tisa. >> Not not a joke. It was passed in the California curriculum committee. >> We had videos of high school students of the Tisla. So, so when when pastors say, "Throw, I don't preach against abortion because I don't preach on politics." You know what I say? No, you don't preach against false religion that masquerades as politics to keep the politically impotent pastor silent. So that we're contending not against an alternative politics, brothers and sisters, but against an alternative religion, the religion of secular progressivism and its sacrament or centerpiece of abortion. Peter Craft, the Catholic philosopher, once said that abortion is the demonic parody of the Eucharist. That's why it uses the same holy words. That's exactly >> this is my body but with the opposite blasphemous meaning. So our savior says at the final supper this is my body and I break it for you. Take and eat in remembrance of me. Not ironically the culture of death says this is my body my choice. and I'll kill whatever's inside of my body because that serpent told me in Genesis 3, "Eat the apple. Do it my way. Then your eyes shall be open." So Eve got woke. By the way, you do need to know this. It is the first woke story. The serpent says, "If you eat the apple, your eyes will be open and you'll see real systems of systemic oppression because God's holding out on you. He doesn't really want you to see. Get woke. Then ye shall be as gods." And a god gets to decide who lives and who dies, don't they? A god also gets to live forever. Isn't that what makes a god a god? They're eternal. So, you need to know this about Anthony Fouchy, the high priest of secular progressivism in the last two years. Fouchy and Francis Collins, the disgraced NIH director, um have approved funding to the University of Pittsburgh where they kill babies in the uh early and late second trimester. Some of those babies who were old enough to survive outside the womb. Then they take them to another wing of the same hospital at the University of Pittsburgh and they scalp their heads off like the Aztecs would have. By the way, the judicial watch exposed all this. I can show you the pictures. Then they insert the scalps of late trimester aborted children on the backs of lab rats and they call these humanized mice. Then the rat grows the infant human hair that should have grown on the scalp of that baby had they not been aborted in the womb. I could show you the pictures and they use the humanized mice to find solutions to staff infections. So notice guys, the baby just becomes a sacrifice on man's pursuit for eternal life. And we do this with embryionic stem cell research, fetal organ harvesting, fetal tissue research, and recently prenatal gene editing where they screw around and poke around with the genes of babies uh conceived in test tubes because if you can edit the genes and get rid of things we don't like in the gene code, uh Margaret Sanger, Eugenics, yes. Uh then we can apply it on ourselves later when it's safe. God forbid my rights are compromised and we'll edit out of our genes certain susceptibilities to diseases so we can live just a little bit longer. CS Lewis once said that everyone wants progress, but if you're on the wrong road. Progress means doing an about turn and walking back to the right road. In that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive. I >> I want to uh shout out Choices Pregnancy. They do such a great job because I think that [applause] they do such a great job. And I'm doing this before we get into the super controversial stuff. This has all just been surface level stuff cuz we're going to go into the stuff that even proifers sometimes are uncomfortable talking about which is how do you ne navigate rape incest life of the mother. These are very serious questions by the way and I don't you know I don't expect complete agreement on every one of them because there's reasonable people can can differ there on certain one of I certainly have my opinions and Seth, I think we're in total alignment there. The second thing, as you were talking about, you know, the Catholic issue, I just want to say that the Catholic community here in Phoenix is some of the great pro-life warriors in Arizona. They really deserve a lot of credit, and I think it's very important to mention that. So, any >> um and I think you've seen the same, right, Seth? Pro-life circles. >> Guys, don't just watch revival happen. I mean, watch it happen and then do something. Be a part of it. This is an incredible time to be alive. I'm thrilled to announce our second annual Life or Death Con in Washington DC on January 22nd, 2026. This is a one-day event to activate and educate you on how Christians should engage in the culture war. The American church has been on the sidelines for far too long. We are taking back the countryside, but we need you to join us so you can take what you've learned back to your community. Everything's changed now since the murder of Charlie and we will not let him die in vain and we will awaken the church that he had such a heart for. We have confirmed speakers Steve Dace, Megan Basham, Abby Johnson, Dr. George Grant, AJ Hurley and more. So join us. I want to see you there the day before the March for Life. Come to Life or Deathcon on January 22nd and then march with us at the White Rose Resistance at the March for Life on January 23rd. Go to life ordeathcon.com. life ordeathcon. To get your ticket today and use code seth s my name for an exclusive discount off your ticket. I'll see you on January 22nd, 2026. Let me just cite Planned Parenthood for you. How about that? In a 1963 booklet that actually uh we have a scan of, so maybe I'll send it to Charlie sometime on the show. In a 1963 Planned Parenthood booklet, they admitted what I just said. They said, "Abortion ends the life of a baby after it has already begun, and it is dangerous to your life and health." Planned Parenthood said that in a 1963 booklet. One year later, Mary Calderon, the medical director for Planned Parenthood, would leave Planned Parenthood and found the sexuality information education council of the United States with seed money from Hugh Hefner with a board member who ran the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University, the the Alfred Kinsey demon degenerate rapist who interviewed pedophiles to get his data on the sexual activity of the American male. Let me just say one thing about if if you ever want to see how sick and how dark some of this stuff goes and you want to see who actually is the architect of the perversion of children. Yep. >> Just read a little bit of Dr. Kinsey. >> Uh and Judith Reeseman. >> Yeah. He wrote a book in the 1920s. >> Sexuality in the human man. >> Yeah, that's exactly right. Um and it is >> and Judith Reeseman who died a couple years ago spent her life debunking the science right [snorts] of Alfred Kinsey. >> Dr. Money was another one. I'll just give you one quote from Dr. Kinsey and I'm paraphrasing. He said, "The only abnormal sexual act for a child is one of which they can't perform." >> Yeah. >> Continue. >> Yeah. On on table 34, table 34 of his book, uh, he actually details the the rape of children between 18 months old and 12y olds. >> Just I only say this because this guy is published and widely celebrated in education. Indiana University Charlie just erected a new statue >> of Alfred Kinsey. So anyways, let's say this. Remember, remember that that T-LE >> sort of a mama bear papa bear speaking at schoolboard meetings in the last two years. What was that in response to? Yes, critical race theory, but secondly, the pornographic sex that in the schools and when you start studying this stuff, all roads lead to Kinsey. Anyways, I have a podcast called Unaborted with Seth Gruber because we're all unaborted and we've done stuff on Kinsey. We've had experts on Kinsey on the show. So go check it out. Anyway, so Planned Parenthood admits in ' 63 abortion is dangerous to the mother's life and health. And then when Roie Wade got overturned, amen by the way, total providential thing that happened, right? [applause] We started hearing a lot of propaganda shocker from the true peddlers of misinformation, the abortion industrial complex. And what were they saying? They were saying now in states where abortion is illegal or highly highly restricted, women are not going to be able to get miscarriage treatments and they're not going to be able to have a baby removed from the fallopian tube in an ectopic pregnancy. And because they were arguing that that was technically the abortion surgical procedure and since abortion is now illegal in that state, pro prolifers are trying to force pregnant women to die and they're just going to have their babies rotting in their womb after a miscarriage. >> Well, no, that's an ad they're running. I'm sure you've seen that >> 25 times an hour. >> Yeah. And so guess what? Guess what Planned Parenthood did right after the overturning of Row versus Wade? They deleted a line from their website, but the internet's forever, so we found it. They deleted a line from their website that said this verbatim. It said, "Treatment for ectopic pregnancy is fundamentally different than treatment for abortion." [laughter] Cuz they were like, "Oh gosh, all the proifers might learn that we're actually lying and we need to strike that line from our website." which is just the Joseph Gerbles attempt of misinformation and censoring your political opponents that we saw in the Third Right in a conversation for another time. So that's one of the lies. >> That's actually a good segue before we get to questions here, Seth. And and you could see he's an endless reservoir of every if you have ever encountered a proabortion. Yeah, you should give it up for Seth. I mean, it's every angle [applause] you can imagine, which it and I text Seth often because again, I I I have to cover 500 issues, right? And so I have to go wide, sometimes more than I would like to go deep, but there's some issues I I want to go deep on, but even sometimes I get a question and it's like, I don't know the best way to answer that. And Seth immediately texts back. He's a great resource and he's he's got a great spirit. But Seth, I want to close this portion before we get to questions here because I know we're going to get some good questions on the topic about your project, the White Rose Resistance. What is the White Rose Resistance? I think it's great education for us. And then what should our goal be? What should our Telos be? What should our purpose be on this topic? What is the call to action specifically? Tell us about your project, then we'll get to questions. >> Yeah, man. Thank you, Charlie. So, the White Rose Resistance is the story of a bunch of young 20somes in the Third Reich. Now, we all know the name Oscar Schindler, right? And Dietrich Bonhaofer, but as I've been sharing the story with some high-profile figures, by the way, um I I most people don't know the story. And so, um we have some pictures here. This is, uh Sophie and Hans Scho in this picture here, but uh Sophie Schul was a young 21-year-old young woman in Nazi Germany in 1942. She had dreams of becoming a school teacher. She had a deep and abiding faith. She loved the Lord. Um her father actually spent some time in prison for publicly criticizing Hitler. And she comes in Munich one day across a leaflet, a pamphlet on the sidewalk and she picks it up and it says leaflets of the White Rose. And she starts reading it and it's explicitly condemning the crimes of the Nazis and asking the good people to wake up. It would say things like, "We are the White Rose Resistance. We are your bad conscience and we will not leave you alone." They would say things like, "If you know, why do you not act?" Remember this is 1942. Jew, the Jews have been wearing the yellow star for about three years now, the final salute. They're being burned already and poisoned in camps. She starts reading it. She goes, "Huh, this sounds a lot how my brother talks a lot of the time." Come to find out, the White Rose Resistance had not only been launched, but was being co-run by none other than her older brother, Hans, at 24 years old. Now, you can imagine Sophie's surprise, like, "What the heck, bro? Why didn't you tell me about this? You're like really cool." But you have to understand at 24 years old, Hans was just trying to protect his little sister. He knew that what he was doing would likely cost him his life. It did. Sophie demands to join the White Rose Resistance as the youngest and the only woman. And for the rest of 1942, they stay up late writing, printing, and distributing anti-Nazi leaflets all around Germany. It was the 1942 third version of a social media campaign. powerful, equipping information, condemning bad ideas, and asking the good people to wake up. And they take things to the next level in 1943. And on February 18th, 1943, Hans and Sophie, brother and sister, walk onto the campus at the University of Munich during class time when the halls were quieter and they begin to drop off piles, hundreds of these anti-Nazi leaflets all around the university. Now, you need to remember the universities, just like the clergy, had largely been dominated by the Nazi state. Sophie in this iconic brave scene walks to the third floor balcony of the University of Munich and she throws an entire stack of leaflets down to the atrium below. Now, what happens when you throw paper? Goes everywhere. The janitor, a committed Nazi, catches Sophie in the act, calls the Gestapo, and has him arrested on the spot. They spend the next four days in prison being brutally interrogated and physically assaulted. Because they were arrested that morning, they missed a meeting they were supposed to go to that afternoon on February 18th, 1943 with a man named Dietrich Bonhoffer, who had been so inspired by their courage as such young resistance fighters. And it was as if God would enter that cell room in Sophie and Hans's final four days, pick them up into his hands, and condense their entire 21 and 24 years into four days. and they would speak with a level of conviction and clarity that was lost on the German pulpits. So I want to share with you one of the things Sophie said because I think Sophie is speaking prophetically to us today. They understood that Edmund Burke line that all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. And so in her final days, Sophie would explain the problem as she saw it. And remember, she's 21. Here's what she said. The real damage is caused by all of those millions who just want to survive. The honest men that just want to be left in peace. Those who don't want their little lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won't take measure of their own strength for fear of antagonizing their own weaknesses. Those who don't like to make waves or enemies. Those for whom freedom, honor, truth, and principle. It's just literature. It's just words. Those who live small die small. It's the reductionistic approach to life. If you keep it small, Christian, you'll keep it under control. Right? If you don't make any noise, the boogeyman won't find you. >> But it's all an illusion because they die, too. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Sophie would say, "Safe from what?" Life is always on the edge of death. Narrow streets lead to the same place as wide avenues, and a little candle burns itself out just like the flaming torch does. I choose my own way to burn. Who speaks like that at 21 years old? That sounds like something Oscar Schindler or William Wilberforce or Dietrich Bonhaofer would write or Frederick Douglas or Harriet Tubman or Martin Luther King Jr. And she would say in her final moments before the Gestapo came to take her to the guillotine, she would say, "How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there's hardly anyone willing to give themselves up individually to a righteous cause?" She would look out her window and say, "Such a fine sunny day, and I have to go now." But what does my death matter if through us thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action? Her bravery so disturbed her prison guards that they relaxed the rules and let Hans and Sophie meet with their parents minutes before being taken to the chopping block. And Sophie's mother would look at her doomed daughter and say, 'Remember Jesus, Sophie.' And Sophie would respond, "Yes, but you too, mama." Her final words, according to the executioner, were, "The sun still shines." And Hans's final words were, "Freedom." They never saw the Christian army of resistance develop that they knew could bring a grinding halt to the Nazi regime. So, I'm rebuilding the White Rose Resistance for this generation against our silent but far more deadly holocaust of abortion today to accomplish the goals that Hans and Sophie dreamed of but never saw realized. And I'm promising you now I'm a pain in the butt, a stick in the eye, and a fly in the ointment to the abortion industrial complex, the spirit of the age, and his obsession with wiping out the image of God from the earth. But first, we want to thank our sponsor of the Seth Gruber Show, Every Life Diaper Company. The only prolife pro America uh diaper company in the country. It's insane how many tens and hundreds of thousands of Christian conservative prolifers are actually funding a culture of death. And you can't destroy a culture of death, bankrupt a culture of death if you're funding it. It's pretty simple. Too many of us have been getting our diapers and baby supplies from companies who either rhetorically support abortion or in some cases financially support abortion, which is of course the murder of their future clientele base who will not need diapers because they were slaughtered in the name of radical feminism. That's the woke mind virus. You have to fight back with your wallet. We want you to support the white rose resistance, but this is like the easiest thing to do is if you're having babies and you need diapers and baby shampoos and wipes anyways, go buy them from a company that is the fastest growing diaper company in the country actually. And they're fully pro-life. They donate diapers to pregnancy centers and to disaster relief efforts all around the globe. Our friends at Every Diaper Company, I know the founders personally, they're wonderful human beings. everylife.com promo code seth10. Everylife.com promo code seth10. That's Seth10 for 10% off your first order. And it lets them know that I sent you, which benefits me and you and every life. Everylife.com, America's pro-life diaper company. I encourage you all to get behind Seth's work there. It's one of the most amazing stories of history that never told. Let's line up for some questions here. Seth is just getting his organiza organization started. As soon as I sat down with Seth, I said, "This thing could catch on like wildfire." I could see pastors. I could see people at churches wearing the white rose. People could amazingly like, "I'm part of it. You're part of it. >> It's and and by the way, the goal is very simple to end abortion in our lifetime." That's right. That's the goal. Very simple. Okay, guys. We want to get to as many questions as we can. So, please keep them as questions. And I do want to stay on topic. I know a lot of you might have political questions or not. Let's just try to stay on topic. Okay, let's let's go here. Good evening. Um, in regards to abortion, how would you address someone who claims to be Christian, yet says that we won't truly know what God believes is right and wrong until Jesus comes back to Earth? >> What was the second half? >> Uh, how would you address someone who claims to be Christian yet says that we won't truly know what God believes is right and wrong until Jesus comes back to Earth? >> Yeah. So, this is an interesting argument. I think what what you're getting at, we hear this a lot. Have you ever heard a pastor or Christian say something like, "I speak where the Bible speaks and I'm silent where the Bible's silent." Kind of to what she's saying. How can we truly know what God thinks is right or wrong until he comes back? So, I'm just going to address what's in the scriptures. It's actually one of the dumbest statements ever said by Christians. Here's why. There's plenty of things that our savior does not condemn. That doesn't mean that the scriptures condone those behaviors. What are some examples? Did you know the Bible doesn't forbid forced female circumcision? Oh, Charlie, we can't address that from a biblical worldview because it's not in the scriptures. Did you know that uh the Bible doesn't uh forbid the lynching of homosexuals like some Muslim countries do? Um, but guess what? I can still know that's wrong because I'm grounded in a Christian worldview that says man and woman has dignity and value and rights because they're created in the image of their God who entered human history in a uterus. So, uh, lots of Christians who say that, and I'll end with this, um, do not read the Bible. Do not take it seriously and commit to isog Jesus, is Jesus rather than exes Jesus. Isog Jesus is when you insert your priors into the scriptures or try to find ways that it confirms your priors. >> Well said. Yeah. And if that that person calls themselves a Christian, they they they should they should read their Bible more. I mean, let's they don't know what God says is right or wrong. Like let let's yeah just read like a verse. Okay. By the way, if you guys in this part of the line want to go to that one, that one's shorter. Vice versa, whatever. Okay. Get to our buddy right here from Dream City Christian, my man. >> Oh, by the way, I'm speaking at Dream City Christian Chap by the way. How great is that? So, >> so I just wanted to know, have you seen Life Mark? >> You know what? I have been traveling so much right now. I have not seen it yet, but Kirk Cameron and I are good friends and I was supposed to have him on my Instagram live yesterday and Instagram decided no, no, and he could not join it for some reason. But Kirk's a good friend. I've heard wonderful things and I encourage you guys to go see it. It's going bonkers at the box office right now. >> Thank you, man. >> Thank you. It's a wonderful story about adoption, which is the heart of the gospel. >> Seth and Charlie. Uh my name is Sloan Adams. Uh and I'm actually from Austin, Texas. Um, Charlie, first off, I just wanted to say thank you for everything that you do as a watchman on the wall for our nation. Amen. >> Um, and I personally wanted to say thank you because the Lord has actually helped use you to reawaken my love for our country and the biblical foundation upon which we're built. Um, with that said, I'm actually on staff at a church in Austin. Um, and I have the honor and privilege of giving the message to our congregation uh on November 6th, the Sunday before the election. I actually requested it. Um, so my question is, if either one of you were me and you had the ear of a congregation on that Sunday, what would you say? >> Wow. So, what would I say? Yeah, I would I would do a exogetical analysis of Zechariah. No, I it's um look, you got to lean in and I think you should be right off upfront and you should say, "Listen, you know, this coming Tuesday is a big day for our nation because you're the Sunday before the Tuesday of the election, right? And the Bible commands us to care about our nation. Cite it biblically, right? Jeremiah 29:7. Talk about Esther, Mori, Nehemiah, Jeremiah all try to influence influence secular government for God's purpose. and then talk about three things that everyone should be able to agree with and say this is not political, it's biblical. God created man and woman, life begins at conception, and that churches are more important than strip clubs. And we're never going to allow the church to be locked down again. [applause] And then you should just pause and say, I want every single person to have a fulfilled ballot. I'm not going to tell you what party to vote for, but I am going to ask you to pray and to fast before you make that decision of which person has the set of policies. So, vote for policies over people that would be most in alignment with the natural law and biblical truth. And then I would give a call to action which is I don't want a single person not to fill out a ballot on Tuesday. And whatever that leads you towards or to then so be it. But those three things are uncompromising. It is no, it is no question of biological reality, when life begins, and the church's importance, and how the government crushed the church over the last couple years. And I just want to commend you and encourage you because where you're at right now is a posture of willingness, a posture of you're asking for help and curiosity. And honestly, if every pastor in America gave a sermon as simple as that, the Sunday before the election, righteousness would prevail. God bless you, man. That's beautiful. Seriously. [applause] Thank you. >> Uh, hi. Can you explain more of how the abortion procedure works? >> The abortion what? >> Procedures. I've seen like movies like Christian movies about it and it's really over. >> I'm telling Seth not to be too graphic because No, I mean it. It's just be general, Seth. I I It's sick. It really >> Yeah. So, there are four primary different forms of abortion. Uh the most popular today and it's accounting for 50% or more now actually of the abortions is RU486. That's the abortion pill. By the way, just a quick little uh let's see 30 I can do this in 30 seconds, 35 seconds. A history window into RU486. This is the abortion pill. What does RU stand for? Rousel Ukloff. What's Rousel Ukloff? Rousel Ukloff's majority shareholder is Hook G. What's Hoost G? Hook a G emerged from the breakup of the German chemical company known as IG Farbin, a company infamous for creating a gas called Zyclon B used to poison Jews in Nazi concentration camps. So Hook AG simply moved from creating poison to kill Jews to creating poison to kill babies. So when you hear people talk about the Nazisesque eugenic demonic legacy of the abortion industrial complex, that's not embellishment hyperbole. That's the reality. And the tour I'm doing right now, the TP faith is sponsoring is of 70 minutes 50 minutes of that entire eugenic legacy. The abortion pill with uh the first regimen of the abortion pill um uh cuts off the hormone progesterone. The lining of the uterus breaks down and the baby starved to death. The second uh uh myth mythopristone and misoprotool misoprotol forces your uterus to have contractions and planned parenthood will literally tell you and we have multiple women who have confirmed this sit on the toilet don't look and flush. So the American sewage system becomes the abortion industry's disposal system. Uh then you have uh you have suction abortions, aspiration abortions which just sucks limbs off. Is that appropriate enough? Uh and then you have dismemberment abortions and that's forceps. That's clamping. That's tearing. And when the white paste starts flowing, you know you got the baby's brains. Um, and then you have induction abortions. And this is when a needle is inserted into the baby's skull or heart, injected with potassium chloride, which by the way is very similar. They use in on death row uh to kill inmates. Isn't that interesting? Um, the baby goes into cardiac arrest and then you deliver a dead child. So >> yeah. And so I will say this, that that's the PG version. >> Yeah. If anyone here or listening online is proabortion, I just challenge you to go learn as much as you can about it. And if you remain proabortion after you really realize the medieval brutality of the procedure, then that's on you. But I guarantee you, if 99% of proabortion people understood the horrific nature of that procedure, I think it would open a lot of eyes. I asked Seth to water that down because if he went he went, there's an R-rated version, which is the accurate version, by the way. It's It's sick. It really is. Thank you for your question. Appreciate it. >> Yes. Sorry. >> Good. >> Hi, Seth. Hi, Charlie. I'm a big fan of both of you. Uh I'm actually a graduate from Grand Canyon University and I know you both have spoken at that university. And uh Charlie, I know you're going to be speaking there pretty soon. So, thank you both so much. You are both such a big inspiration to me and to all of us here tonight. So, uh, my question is, um, I, Seth, I loved how you debunked every single proabortion argument in the book. Um, the left has been using the same arguments for abortion for literally decades. But, um, one argument that I'm finding really hard to debunk is the argument of, you know, people say things like, "Oh, you're not pro-life. You're just pro birth. You don't care about the baby after it's born. You don't care what happens to it. You don't care if it's fed or if it's clothed or if it grows up in a good home. Yada yada yada. >> Pretty good. >> So, yeah, I know. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you're just pro birth. Yeah. So, thank you. Um, so the [laughter] it's So, the argument goes like this. You can't truly be pro-life, and you haven't proven your pro-life convictions unless you're caring for all of the children not aborted. So I have to I have to somehow prove my moral position through more than standing against the killing of the babies in the womb, but through the adopting, the raising or the financing of children already born. If that's true, then I say then you proabortion advocate, you cannot show the true courage of your proabortion convictions unless you're willing to abort the children. >> Very interesting response. They go, uh, because let me tell you something. Most people after they start ripping arms and legs off, they're done. They're done with that industry. And by the way, this is why many u especially more conservative states, guess what? They have a really hard time finding enough surgical abortionists because a lot of people don't want to do that work, right? Uh so, and then the other part of the answer would be this. Um all that is required to be truly pro-life is to live and act as if abortion is wrong. The pro-life movement already has a massive task on their shoulders to end the greatest genocide in human history. And the pro-life movement and pro-life organizations are largely underfunded and understaffed. And then we're told with that huge do job description that you're not even pro-life unless you're adopting all the babies. You your pro-life ethic is debunked unless I can see how many children you adopted and children you're fostering. Right? Imagine saying that you can't oppose me beating my wife, which I don't do. Unless you're willing to marry her. Assume, let's say, let's assume I'm a child abusing degenerate father. And then I say, "You church can't oppose me beating my toddler unless you're willing to adopt him." And you would say, "Uh, I'm not going to adopt your kid, but like, stop beating him." And your anti- toddler torturing position would still be valid even if you weren't adopting the toddlers being beaten. Does that make sense? So why should it be any different on the abortion issue? We have other organizations better situated, oh and by the way, better funded for foster care, for adoption, for these various things than telling the pro-life movement, who has an overwhelming job description, that they have to do more than try to end abortion for their pro-life ethic to be valid. But the Christian worldview is broad and comprehensive. It demands that we love and care for all neighbors. But that doesn't mean that the operational objectives of the pro-life movement must be diverted to other social causes for our pro-life ethic to be valid. Yeah. And I also I get that question a lot and I reject the premise. I mean, every single policy that I believe in is a pro-life policy. I want a southern border so children aren't sex trafficked into my country. That's a pro-life position. I want more cops on the street so people aren't slain on the side of the street going to school. I want school choice so that children can read and not be taught critical race theory or pornographic material. I want medical mutilation to be outlawed because I don't think a 13-year-old should have to go into a surgical room because some pharmaceutical company will benefit from it. >> I want a booming economy because it lifts people out of poverty and gives them dignity and a chance to flourish and not be on government handouts. Every position I have is a pro-life position. I'm not just pro-life. I'm not pro birth. I'm pro- life in every capacity. So yeah, >> and don't let people who slaughter unborn children at the tune of a million a year pontificate about morality. Just reject the premise. Like you proife children in the womb through all nine months of pregnancy and you have the gull to judge me from a moral framework. >> Seriously. >> Yeah. All of the science. >> They they lecture me because they say you don't want as many government benefits as I want. Therefore, you're not pro-life. Yeah, maybe I don't want those government benefits because I think that God has a better future in store for you than just staying on taxpayer subsidy and being having to be subsidized the rest of your life. So, I always punch back twice as hard on that. I believe everyone here has a heart for all people made in the image of God and we believe a free society is the best way for those people to flourish. Thank you. [applause] >> Uh first of all, thank you guys both for being here. Um, I just wanted to ask, uh, as far as the super super rare, um, when it comes to the mother's health, um, I was tricked by that as well and I kind of held that point of view. Uh, if it was the mother's health, I couldn't enforce it. If I were to have a wife, um, and it came with her, I would plead with her to give her life for the baby. Uh, but can you elaborate on the science about inducing early labor and a mother's health and when that all comes um, into play? >> Yeah. So, so there's been a lot of studies on abortion's link to negative consequences for the mother, preterm labor and subsequent pregnancies, um, breast cancer and mental health. But what you'll hear the proabortion side say is that um, there are no negative consequences for mom's health following an abortion. I don't have time to get into all the data. My friend Dr. Brent BS, kind of my in-house OBGYn on my podcast, Unaborted. We did a podcast, if you scroll down on my podcast, unaborted, uh, called Proof that abortion is linked to breast cancer, pre-term labor, and mental health. And basically, he goes through every study in existence. He's very informed OBGYn that that ever looked at the link between abortion and breast cancer, abortion and preterm labor, abortion and mental health. It comes down to this. The abortion industry hones in on the two or three studies of about 70 or 80 that showed that there was no negative consequence. And then they ran that as the CNN chirons and headlines. It gets repeated in academia and medicinal circles and then the CDC and ACOG American College of Obstitricians and Gynecologists. They run with it and they say debunked follow the science. Okay. Um but with Row versus Wade and Doe versus Bolton, the two Supreme Court decisions in 1973 that legalized abortion through point of birth, they said that states um could ban abortion in the third trimester unless um a failure to get a third trimester abortion endangered the mother's life or health. And then they defined health so broadly you could drive a Mac truck through it. So then in a 1981 congressional subcommittee hearing uh they were forced to define what they meant by the word health and they said health can refer to uh familial emotional basically anything that you wanted to define it as to justify that third trimester burger. What does emotional health mean? What does familial health mean? Does that mean you got in a fight with your husband and and it kind of made you a little stressed out? No no no blows were thrown. It was just some yelling and so now I need an abortion. Yeah. And guess who gets to define whether the mother's definition of health is the appropriate legal definition to meet the standard for a third trimester abortion? >> The abortionist. >> Oh, I'm sure he has no financial incentive to ex to adopt her definition of health because guess which abortions pay the best? >> Late term abortions. [laughter] So, that's a little bit about how they've used health to basically ramrod through abortion through point of birth. Um but yeah, if you look at the studies, the the breadth of the studies shows an overwhelming link of negative health consequences for the mother following the abortion. >> Yeah. And and finally, I also want to make sure we're all clear on the the 99% of all abortions are done electively and are done for convenience, >> socioeconomic. >> Yeah. Socioeconomic reasons. According to the pro-abortion gootmacher institute, we're we're talking about such a fraction of a fraction that are rape, incest, and even less so of even if you're able to get to that definition of life of the mother. And so I always flip it whenever this comes up. I always flip it and I say let let's not get too drawn into theoretics or abstractions. Do you think that the 99% of that's just out of socioeconomic is wrong? And they'll never admit that. It's never about that. Just tell them if I give you rape and incest and life of the mother for a second, will you join me to fight to end the 98% of all other abortions? And they always say no. To which I say, then why are you hiding behind rape victims to make yourself look more compassionate? >> Yeah. Because they they can't debate >> on anything else. Thank you for being here. I want to get to as many questions as we can. >> Hi. So, uh, this question is a little similar to one that was asked already, but I find myself keep continuously running into this when talking to people who are proabortion. Um, so I'm just curious to know what you would say to someone who says that they have no other option but to abort their baby because they can't financially support it support a child and they don't want to contribute to overcrowded orphanages. >> Oh wow. >> Orphanages >> or foster care. Yeah. So um, pregnancy resource centers outnumber abortion centers in this country more than two to one. You need to know that first of all. Um, most people don't know what a pregnancy resource center is, and we have some politicians who say that they torture pregnant women, um, and that they hate women, um, and that they're the peddlers of misinformation. It's very interesting. So, some politicians wrote a letter to Google recently, Charlie, saying, uh, you need to make sure that those nasty pregnancy centers that torture pregnant women that their results don't show up on Google. And Google is going along with that right now. uh that last year Google made sure that that proifers couldn't promote ad spend for the abortion pill reversal. Remember I talked to you about RU486? Well, the abortion pill reversal is just progesterone. So, it gives her more of what the abortion pill was breaking down to help save the pregnancy. And they're saying the that the abortion pill reversal is dangerous to women. And now they're saying pregnancy resource centers are the peddlers of misinformation. Misinformation? You mean when I go to Planned Parenthood's website and I try to find out what a suction abortion is and it says that it gently suctions out the pregnancy? The pregnancy tissue? Pregnancy tissue. Uh guys, there's no such thing as pregnancy tissue. Pregnancy is not a thing. It's a condition. Conditions don't have pregnancy. Conditions don't have tissue. So if you're pregnant, what are you pregnant with? Well, if you're a human being, you're pregnant with another human being. So that's human tissue. And these are the people lecturing us on the peddling of misinformation. Okay, so there are those pregnancy resource centers that are heroes and we have some represented here tonight from choices. They outnumber abortion centers more than 2 to one. And they provide almost all of the same services that Planned Parenthood does, minus the baby butchery part. Um, and they do it all for free. Uh, the Catholic Church is kind of big on charity and hospitals and loving the poor and orphanages and foster care if you don't know that. It's actually the most charitable uh religious institution in the United States of America. There are plenty of ministries well situated to provide care for women who need help. And the church ought to be the ones on the front lines making sure that we're not prostituting our spiritual obligation to pregnancy centers and letting them do it while we make ourselves feel really good, but actually getting involved being the hands and feet of Jesus to women who are hurting and need help. >> Yeah. So, so two things I'll say. one that I think we'll all agree with and the second one that you might agree with. The first one is that now that Row versus Wade is repealed, the church has to step up. Dream City has done this and have a no excuse policy of anybody who's pregnant, you know, unexpectedly in the community that will receive help and love and and acceptance with all of that regardless of circumstances. And I've been