Charlie Kirk Debates Young Atheist on Objective Morality, Hitler, and the Christian Foundations of America

0:00

I have a friend named Thomas Sheety. He

0:02

is the founder of a organization called

0:04

Atheist for Liberty. He is openly

0:06

conservative. Um, but he's mostly

0:08

interested in atheist activism and

0:10

normalizing atheism in all sects,

0:12

including the conservative movement. He

0:15

seems to be under the impression that a

0:16

lot of conservatives um, including you,

0:18

are more hesitant to work with atheist

0:20

organizations. Is there any truth to

0:22

that?

0:23

Yes and no. I mean, if you're an atheist

0:25

and you want to be part of the

0:26

conservative movement, go ahead. But you

0:28

must be an honest atheist and

0:30

acknowledge that morality is

0:31

definitionally subjective without a

0:34

belief in God. That you cannot be an

0:36

atheist and believe in objective

0:37

morality. It is an impossibility. And

0:39

true atheists will acknowledge this. At

0:41

some point you have an ought claim.

0:43

Well, things ought to be a certain way.

0:45

We as Christians or we that believe in

0:47

the divine, we have is claims that there

0:50

murder is wrong. Whereas an atheist will

0:52

say, "Well, murder ought to be wrong

0:54

because you can't have an objective

0:56

definition if there is not a divine

0:58

eternal power over you." So, look, if an

1:00

atheist wants to fight alongside of us

1:02

to end abortion or to try and end the

1:05

massacring of our kids, that's called

1:07

gender affirming care. And or if an

1:09

atheist wants to march alongside of us

1:11

to say no men and female sports, they're

1:13

more than welcome to be able to do that.

1:15

But atheist for liberty is an

1:17

interesting phrase because I don't

1:19

believe you can have liberty without

1:20

God. because liberty is not man's idea.

1:22

It is God's idea. That's just my own

1:24

personal belief and it's also the belief

1:26

of everything that built this nation.

1:28

But yes, I'm I'm I know a lot of good

1:30

atheists. The question though is how do

1:32

you know they're good? It's because

1:33

you're appealing to a moral authority

1:35

above just the secular material realm.

1:37

One that is transcendent, we would

1:40

believe given by God.

1:42

Um well, I I don't believe in objective

1:45

morality. I do know there are plenty of

1:47

atheists who are moral objectivists.

1:48

Are you an atheist? Sorry to interrupt,

1:50

but

1:50

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, let me just Can I

1:52

ask you a question? And I don't mean I

1:54

know this is your first time at the mic,

1:55

so I'm just going to try to be tender in

1:56

doing this.

1:57

Okay. Appreciate that.

1:57

So, you don't believe in objective

1:59

morality, right?

2:00

I personally don't.

2:00

Okay. Uh, was the Holocaust objectively

2:02

wrong?

2:03

Objectively, no, but it would have been

2:05

better if it didn't happen because most

2:07

people wouldn't want that to happen.

2:08

So, that's that's where we that's where

2:11

we are on different planets.

2:13

Um, and that's okay. I'm not trying to

2:14

make fun of you. I'm trying to be

2:15

graceful in the way that we're going

2:16

about this. Do you think Hitler was

2:19

objectively evil?

2:22

No, because it's subjective.

2:24

But I just hope all of you guys

2:25

understand he's being an honest atheist

2:28

to your credit because as an atheist,

2:30

you're not allowed to say anything is

2:31

objectively right or wrong. I come from

2:34

a worldview that when you butcher six

2:36

million people that is objectively

2:38

wrong, no matter what. And and it's very

2:41

important truth claim because when you

2:44

do not have objective truth anchoring

2:46

your society then it becomes a power

2:48

struggle. If you do not have truth then

2:51

power will reign. Whoever can get the

2:52

most amount of power then ends up having

2:55

the most amount of say over society. We

2:58

believe what is objectively right, true,

3:00

good and beautiful should be

3:02

transcendent over society. Your

3:03

thoughts?

3:04

So do you believe objective morality

3:05

specifically comes from the Bible?

3:07

Yes and no. It's al it's in nature and

3:09

the Bible explains nature. So objective

3:12

morality can be discovered in many

3:13

different cultures and societies

3:15

pointing towards what we believe is the

3:17

ultimate objective truth Jesus Christ.

3:19

CS Lewis explained this the best in his

3:21

book abolition of man which is that

3:23

almost every religion talks about a

3:25

certain way to live a a Dao or a path

3:28

that we should be on. And so more more

3:32

simply than just the Bible, we believe

3:35

in what the founders believed, which is

3:36

an ethical monotheism that there is one

3:39

God. He has a general way that he wants

3:41

you to live. For example, murdering is

3:43

bad, kidnapping is wrong, defense of the

3:46

innocent, and we should do our best to

3:48

try to live alongside of that path.

3:50

Okay. Well, I think those are very

3:52

interesting examples. Uh, you bring up

3:54

the founders, you bring up Hitler, but

3:55

Hitler was a self-proclaimed Catholic

3:57

and he called Nazism a Christian

3:59

movement.

4:00

Yeah, I would be careful saying that he

4:02

was he was not. That's okay. I mean,

4:03

he called himself a Catholic. He said he

4:05

specifically said in 1927, "Our movement

4:07

is Christian." They had on the belt

4:08

buckles God on our side.

4:10

Yeah.

4:10

They they had to swear to the almighty

4:12

God. Uh, atheists were not trusted to be

4:14

in the SS. Even if I grant you that,

4:17

despite the fact that he killed a lot of

4:18

pastors and priests and

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there of course you can pervert things

4:23

in the name of God, no one denounces

4:25

that. Just as a side note though, far

4:27

more people died under the banner of

4:29

atheism than Christianity in the 20th

4:31

century.

4:32

Mao was an atheist. Stalin was an

4:33

atheist. Pulpot was an atheist.

4:36

Believing in no god actually led to the

4:38

destruction and the murder of well over

4:39

a 100red million people. And that's

4:41

fine. So again, if atheists want to come

4:44

alongside us as conservatives and fight

4:46

for what is good, that is great. But I

4:48

will never acknowledge that atheists can

4:50

tell me what is objectively good. They

4:52

can only give me a preference. They

4:54

cannot tell me what is right. And

4:56

preferences eventually will lead you

4:58

towards moral and societal decline.

5:01

Okay. So I think you just listed a bunch

5:03

of communists. And it's worth

5:05

acknowledging the vast majority of

5:06

atheists are not communists, just like

5:07

the vast majority of Christians are not

5:08

theocrats who don't support the divine

5:10

right. It's also worth acknowledging

5:11

that the uh founders were actually

5:14

inspired by enlightenment values, not by

5:16

the Bible. America was found as a

5:18

secular nation. We were the first uh

5:20

quote unquote goalless constitution.

5:23

Yeah. Again, I've done this so many

5:24

times, so I don't know if we want to

5:26

waste our time doing this, but 55 out of

5:28

56 of the signers of the declaration

5:29

were Bible believing church attending

5:31

Christians. Nine out of 13 of the states

5:33

of the title of ratification required a

5:34

declaration of faith in order for you to

5:36

serve in the states. We were our birth

5:38

certificate which is the Mayflower

5:39

Compact said explicitly we are here to

5:41

spread Christianity throughout the land.

5:43

It was the first great revival that led

5:44

to the American Revolution of Jonathan

5:46

Edwards and Jonathan Mayhew and George

5:48

Whitfield that preached all across the

5:50

eastern seabboard. Jon Adams famously

5:52

said the constitution was written solely

5:53

for a moral and religious people. It's

5:55

wholly inadequate for the people of any

5:56

other. We were a Christian nation that

5:58

was able to embrace the idea of a free

6:00

society. God is mentioned four times in

6:02

the Declaration of Independence. Not

6:03

only that, Jesus Christ is mentioned in

6:05

the Declaration of Pence where it says,

6:06

"We appeal to the divine judge of the

6:08

universe," which of course is a direct

6:09

appeal to Jesus in the book of

6:11

Revelation. Yes, there were rationalist

6:13

enlightenment values that inform some of

6:15

the founders, but it irrefutably was a

6:17

Christian nation. Maryland was Catholic.

6:19

Pennsylvania was Quaker. Almost every

6:21

state had their own like specific type

6:24

of Christian preference. The idea of an

6:26

atheist or not believing in any God was

6:28

an idea that was so foreign to the

6:30

founders. Even Thomas Jefferson the

6:32

great deist he revered the Bible albeit

6:34

with you know some significant edits.

6:36

However, the idea of believing in no

6:39

cosmological or no axiological or no

6:41

teological or no ontological being would

6:45

be a concept that our founding fathers

6:46

and not just find foreign. They would

6:48

find it extraordinarily dangerous. Why?

6:50

Because the French revolution was

6:51

happening simultaneously as the American

6:53

revolution which was explicitly atheist.

6:55

They they actually recreated their own

6:58

gods and had they said we are going to

7:00

appeal to what the god of reason. And

7:02

this is my final contention is that when

7:04

I talk to atheists the French Revolution

7:06

is a great example. They literally tried

7:07

to change the Gregorian calendar to a

7:09

10-day week. They went and imprisoned

7:11

people of faith. They put priests in

7:12

jail. All these different sorts of

7:14

things. And they said we are going to

7:15

appeal to the god of reason. Well, how

7:17

did that work out? It worked out with

7:18

the guillotine and the slaughter of tens

7:20

of thousands of people. The French

7:21

Revolution was one of the greatest

7:23

disasters in human recorded history.

7:25

Contrast that with the American

7:27

Revolution. Why did the American

7:28

Revolution create the greatest nation

7:30

ever to exist in the history of the

7:31

world and the French Revolution resulted

7:32

in a lot of blood and even the killing

7:34

of their own once leader Maxmillian Rubs

7:36

Beier? It's because we were anchored on

7:37

Christian ideas. If you do if you are

7:39

not anchored on Christian ideas, then

7:41

don't be surprised and all of a sudden

7:43

there is no fruit to the harvest that

7:44

you're trying to create.

7:45

I'm an atheist, so I disagree with your

7:47

religious claims.

7:48

Uh do you believe in absolute truth?

7:52

question.

7:52

I'm not sure you can provide me positive

7:55

evidence that there is absolute truth.

7:56

So the qu the answer would be I'm not

7:57

sure.

7:58

Are you are you absolutely not sure?

8:00

I'm not sure if I'm absolutely not sure.

8:02

See this works if you say no, but it

8:03

doesn't work if you bottom out in the

8:04

I'm not I don't know question.

8:06

Right. No, but saying you're not sure is

8:08

you are not even sure if you're not

8:10

sure. So at some point you're just

8:11

always have to make a truth claim. Yeah.

8:12

No, you can just be not sure about

8:14

everything all the way down. I don't see

8:15

why you can't. And my answer would be I

8:17

think um truth is instrumentalist in

8:18

theory. I think it's a thing we choose

8:20

pragmatically. For the purposes of

8:21

discussion, I think you can say, "Yeah,

8:23

I think uh truth exists pragmatically."

8:25

Regardless of that, I don't see how you

8:26

get to God.

8:27

Are you alive?

8:28

Huh?

8:28

Are you alive?

8:29

I think I'm alive. Yeah.

8:31

Think you're alive?

8:32

Yeah.

8:34

Is the sun Is the sun shining?

8:36

I think it's shining. Yeah.

8:38

From my frame of reference, it is

8:39

shining. Notice Notice how none of this

8:43

I mean, notice how you've gotten no

8:45

steps closer to proving God.

8:47

No, I'm asking questions, man. Okay.

8:48

Yeah. But

8:49

are you sure we did it?

8:50

Yeah. I'm

8:52

Are you sure we didn't go?

8:54

I'm I'm sure in the pragmatic

8:55

instrumental.

8:56

How sure are you that we didn't?

8:58

In the pragmatic instrumentalist sense.

8:59

Absolutely sure. I see truth as a

9:01

utility.

9:01

So there is a truth that's absolute.

9:03

No, it's it's instrumentally true.

9:05

You just said it was absolute.

9:06

No, absolutely. Sure. In the

9:07

instrumentalist sense of the word truth.

9:09

This is a philosophical tradition that

9:11

dates back hundreds of years.

9:12

Instrumentalism.

9:13

Yeah. Which of course we don't subscribe

9:15

to obviously. So,

9:16

do you believe that murder is

9:17

objectively wrong?

9:19

Epistemologically objective or

9:20

ontologically objective?

9:22

Uh, morally.

9:24

See, you didn't answer the question, but

9:26

both both epistemologically and

9:28

ontologically. But for the purpose of

9:29

discussion,

9:30

what? Okay. So, by what you mean? No, I

9:32

don't think it's objective.

9:34

Was Hitler a bad person objectively?

9:37

No. If you mean by the way, by the way,

9:40

wait slowly. Tread slowly. No, no, but

9:44

he's being honest. At its core, atheists

9:46

cannot say that Hitler was bad.

9:48

Can Can I make the claim now?

9:49

Notice who here is relying on feelings

9:52

and not facts. Your argument is I feel

9:54

that Hitler was objective.

9:55

No, I know.

9:56

No, no, you feel that way. Can you

9:57

provide me evidence of how you know? Can

9:59

you provide me evidence that morality is

10:00

objective?

10:01

No, of course I can because

10:04

Well, first of all, morality is both

10:05

reason and revelation and it's built

10:07

within to us that murder is wrong.

10:08

Yeah.

10:09

Wait. Okay. Where's your evidence of

10:10

that?

10:10

Wait. Wait. I'm so sorry. Is that a

10:12

That's a claim, not evidence. That's a

10:13

claim.

10:14

Okay, we could we could spend multiple

10:15

hours, but in the Western tradition,

10:18

so notice how you're saying by

10:19

tradition, by by the standards, by these

10:22

all claims of non-truth.

10:23

Hold on. Yes, they are. We believe that

10:25

truth was revealed to us.

10:27

We believe claim

10:28

by God. Hold on, but let me let me We

10:30

can get there. You can keep on

10:31

interrupting us.

10:32

But but let me prove to you how silly

10:34

your viewpoint is,

10:35

and how self-evidently wrong,

10:37

okay? Is it objectively wrong to kids?

10:40

When you say objective, what I mean by

10:42

objective, [cheering]

10:48

once again, once again,

10:53

[cheering]

10:57

dude, can I ask you something? And I

10:58

No, no, no. Notice how you still haven't

11:00

given me dispositive evidence on reality

11:02

is objective. You're merely saying my

11:04

answer is I feel that way. Sure, I feel

11:06

that way. That's all I can It's object.

11:08

It's objectively wrong to the laws of

11:10

nature.

11:10

What law of nature?

11:11

Well, the self-evident nature of

11:13

existence.

11:14

Where is your proof that it's self? Show

11:15

me the logical proof that it's

11:16

self-evident.

11:17

Okay. It's it's in your reason that God

11:18

gave you in the consciousness.

11:20

Prove that God gave it to me. Prove that

11:21

God gave it to me.

11:22

Okay. But again, your existence is proof

11:24

of that. You you again, we can get back

11:27

down to the first principles of this.

11:29

But

11:30

you can, but you don't want to because

11:31

you know it doesn't look good. No, it

11:33

looks actually really good because

11:35

evidence for it

11:35

built within again interrupting does not

11:38

make you right. So,

11:39

but you keep repeating your point. I get

11:40

your point.

11:40

No, I don't. So, let me ask you a

11:42

question in closing since you can't

11:43

objectively say that Hitler was bad or

11:45

that child is is wrong.

11:47

So, how did the universe come into

11:50

existence?

11:51

I don't know.

11:53

Okay. But science says that it was a big

11:54

bang or a beginning point, right? Okay.

11:56

So, using logic which you believe in.

11:58

Is this the colum cosmological argument?

11:59

Well, again, you keep interrupting.

12:01

Using using logic, if space, time, and

12:04

matter

12:05

had a starting point, then logically

12:08

shouldn't something outside of space,

12:09

time, and matter have started those

12:11

things.

12:11

How do you know that cause is personal?

12:13

How do you know that cause is worth

12:14

praying to?

12:15

That's not That's not the question.

12:16

Wait, wait. Okay, sure, there is a

12:17

cause.

12:18

Oh, that cause is God cuz it's outside

12:19

of space, time. No, no, but you believe

12:22

in different things about God.

12:23

[cheering] You think that God is

12:24

personal?

12:24

That's not That's not what we're

12:25

debating. We're

12:26

No, we are arguing about God.

12:27

We're about

12:30

religion.

12:30

Hold on. No, we're not debating. We're

12:31

debating whether or not there's a god or

12:32

not.

12:33

No, the Christian god. I said religion

12:34

that you're a religious person. You're a

12:36

Christian in nature. You follow

12:37

religious tradition.

12:38

Calm down. You said you're an atheist.

12:39

Wait, no. God, God historically, Aquinus

12:41

even defines it this way is a personal

12:43

God. You still haven't gotten to me to

12:44

prove that it's personal.

12:45

I'm happy to get to that.

12:46

Okay, then get to it.

12:47

Look, here's here's what I find with

12:48

atheists. They don't want to worship or

12:51

acknowledge God because many atheists

12:53

think they are God.

12:54

And you embody that really well.

12:56

I didn't know you were a mind reader,

12:57

Charlie. This is news to me.

12:58

It's not a mind readader. I I could tell

13:00

by your behavior. I will say this. I

13:01

hope that you give your life to Jesus

13:03

Christ.

13:03

I hope you do. [cheering]

13:05

I hope you can find evidence. I hope you

13:07

can find evidence.

13:07

You know what's interesting? There is

13:08

evidence. There is evidence that Jes

13:10

Hold on. Last thing. Do you believe

13:12

Jesus Christ was a real historical

13:13

figure?

13:14

Yes.

13:14

Do you believe that the gospels are

13:16

historically accurate and we can prove

13:17

them with archaeological evidence?

13:19

Some parts are. Some parts are some

13:21

parts are metaphors. Some parts are

13:23

allegorories. Some parts are literal. It

13:25

depends. Some parts are attempts at

13:26

history. Why depends which book or

13:28

gospel?

13:29

Using rational analysis, why would the

13:31

disciples lie about the resurrection of

13:33

Christ?

13:34

Okay, we can talk about this. People

13:36

they can be mistaken mistakenly wrong

13:37

about it.

13:38

So they would be mistakenly wrong up to

13:39

the point where they get martyed.

13:41

The whole point the whole point of being

13:43

mistakenly wrong about something is you

13:44

believe it's true

13:45

all the way up until the point of death.

13:47

The whole point of being mistakenly

13:48

wrong about something is you

13:49

I just want to make sure I understand

13:50

your position. Your position is that the

13:52

12 disciples who knew Christ best saw

13:54

him die and then they all believed a

13:56

mistaken conspiracy for the rest of

13:58

their life. All of them together as a

14:00

conspiracy.

14:01

Yes. Yes. There is no firsthand account

14:04

from the 500. The gospels are all

14:06

written by these people. People have

14:08

died for crazy claims in the past that

14:09

we know aren't true. These are all facts

14:11

about history.

14:11

That's not correct. Okay. One of the

14:13

gospels was written by one of his

14:14

closest associates, Matthew the tax

14:16

collector. Luke was a factfighter that

14:19

was hired. No, I didn't say the gospels

14:20

weren't written by them. I said there's

14:21

no evidence from the 500 that he

14:23

appeared to. There's no firsthand

14:24

accounts.

14:24

Again, that's not correct. Thank you for

14:25

your time. We'll get to the next

14:26

question.

14:26

Okay, you can you can not answer.

14:28

We [cheering and screaming] will pray

14:28

for you. Thank you.