Frank Turek Reflects on Charlie Kirk's Martyrdom and Addresses Conspiracy Theories Surrounding His Death

[00:00] Frank, appreciate your time today. I

[00:01] know it has been really weeks now,

[00:04] almost a couple of months of a lot of

[00:07] intensity, a lot of conversation, a lot

[00:10] of mourning, a lot of difficulty. You

[00:13] know, you have spent so much of your

[00:15] career and your time answering difficult

[00:18] faith questions. And you know, I thought

[00:20] and prayed a lot for you and about you

[00:22] during this time. And and I guess I'll

[00:24] start with this. How have you made sense

[00:26] of the past almost two months?

[00:30] Well, I made sense of it by knowing that

[00:32] what happened was evil. And the only way

[00:34] I know that that was evil was because I

[00:37] know what is good. And the only reason I

[00:39] know what was good is because there's a

[00:41] standard of good outside myself. And

[00:43] that's God's nature.

[00:45] >> So, as soon as we see something evil, we

[00:48] know it's evil. But the only way we

[00:51] would know that is if we knew what the

[00:52] standard of good was. Because evil is a

[00:54] lack in a good thing. It's a privation

[00:56] in a good thing. So, an evil event like

[00:59] this doesn't disprove God. It may prove

[01:02] there's a devil out there, but it

[01:04] doesn't disprove God because you

[01:05] wouldn't you wouldn't even know what

[01:07] evil was unless there was a standard of

[01:09] good. And you wouldn't know what good

[01:10] was unless God existed. So, it's

[01:11] actually an argument for God, not an

[01:13] argument against God.

[01:15] >> Yeah, that's that's interesting. You

[01:16] know, because a lot of people, they go

[01:18] through difficult moments and they and

[01:19] you know this, I mean, they struggle.

[01:21] That's why people come to you with so

[01:22] many of the questions that that they

[01:23] have. And you know, being there at that

[01:26] event with Charlie Kirk that day, you

[01:28] also had to deal with a lot of other

[01:30] things. You know, the the insane

[01:32] conspiracy theories about and of course

[01:34] it turned out to be you, you know, that

[01:36] you were there and you're there, you

[01:37] know, supporting your friend Charlie as

[01:39] he's speaking. What was that part of

[01:42] this like? Because just watching that,

[01:44] it was so horrifying to think that

[01:47] somebody just gets an idea from a clip

[01:49] and they run with it and it becomes a

[01:51] narrative. Well, first of all, I didn't

[01:53] even know about it for the first 36

[01:55] hours because we were in our own little

[01:57] bubble with the family and, you know, at

[02:00] the hotel and with JD Vance and Air

[02:02] Force 2 and all that. We weren't even

[02:05] aware of all of that chatter going on.

[02:08] Um, I just find it incredibly stupid

[02:13] that anyone would think anyone would

[02:15] need to signal a shooter about anything.

[02:18] Uh if you're looking through a

[02:20] high-powered rifle from 200 yd, you

[02:22] couldn't even see somebody 25 ft to his

[02:25] to his to Charlie's right and why would

[02:29] you need a signal? You you know who

[02:31] Charlie Kirk is? He's the one under the

[02:33] tent with the microphone. I mean,

[02:35] >> yeah.

[02:36] >> Where have people come up with these

[02:37] inane ideas and as if there's some

[02:41] insight into a crime?

[02:43] >> Yeah.

[02:43] >> Uh they don't think it through. There's

[02:46] there's no reason to signal anyone. And

[02:49] not only that, I had just gotten that

[02:51] hat. Somebody had given me that hat. It

[02:53] was a Trump 47 hat. I didn't go there

[02:55] with a hat. Someone just handed it to

[02:56] me, you know, cuz Charlie and I were

[02:58] flipping hats into the audience and

[02:59] somebody said, "Hey, you want a hat?" I

[03:00] said, "Yeah, it's kind of sunny. Why

[03:01] don't I take a hat?" So, I was just

[03:03] adjusting the hat as if as if I'm I'm

[03:05] signaling somebody to steal second base.

[03:07] You know, people think what what what

[03:10] kind of sense does any of this make?

[03:12] >> It makes no sense at all. Well, it's

[03:15] about it's about people, I think, having

[03:18] some sort of ability or power in their

[03:21] own mind to solve something, you know,

[03:22] or and I think honestly, if you look at

[03:24] the culture, the true crime obsession,

[03:26] the social media obsession, it's

[03:28] actually really troubling that this is

[03:30] the place that we're at now, right? that

[03:32] everybody has to be an expert and solve

[03:34] every single thing when real people are

[03:37] are dealing with real emotional issues

[03:41] um and horrific events that they've had

[03:43] to watch in process. So I was curious

[03:45] about that just because watching that

[03:46] was very difficult from the outside. I

[03:48] can't imagine what it's been like to I

[03:51] mean even broader than that. I mean, how

[03:52] do you how do you make sense as a

[03:55] Christian watching other Christians

[03:58] spread conspiracy theories and and idea

[04:02] like what you were saying, but other

[04:03] things. I'm not even going to get into

[04:04] the specifics of it. What has that been

[04:05] like for you to watch and experience?

[04:08] >> Well, you're probably talking about

[04:09] Candace Owens and uh you know, I have

[04:12] not followed Candace Owens closely. I

[04:15] know she was a good friend of Charlie

[04:16] years ago. In fact, when I first met

[04:18] Charlie, I I said, you know, tell me a

[04:21] little bit about your ministry, you

[04:23] know, like your your what you do and you

[04:25] know, who who who have you mentored. He

[04:27] he mentioned Candace Owens. Um and

[04:30] Charlie would never speak ill of anybody

[04:33] um privately

[04:35] uh unless he spoke to that person first

[04:37] and tried to correct them. So, Charlie

[04:39] never said anything bad about Candace or

[04:41] anything, but I just find um this idea

[04:45] that she's making all these suggestions

[04:47] without evidence

[04:50] very painful for people. It's okay to

[04:52] suggest, well, maybe this, maybe that,

[04:54] but as soon as you start launching

[04:56] accusations, TPUSA betrayed so you know

[05:00] him betrayed Charlie, you know, I had a

[05:02] dream that that Charlie told me this,

[05:04] that's not evidence.

[05:06] I mean,

[05:09] maybe she's maybe she's right. You know,

[05:13] it could be. Anything's possible.

[05:17] But not everything has evidence behind

[05:20] them. And what people don't seem to

[05:22] understand,

[05:24] and this is why I had my friend

[05:25] Detective Jay Warner Wallace on my

[05:27] podcast two weeks after Charlie's

[05:30] martyrdom, people don't understand how

[05:33] prosecution works, how murder cases

[05:37] work. The prosecution rarely tells you

[05:41] anything they have, much less everything

[05:44] they have. As as Detective Wallace

[05:47] pointed out, the prosecution's job is to

[05:49] get a conviction at trial. The

[05:52] prosecution's job is not to quell every

[05:55] internet rumor.

[05:57] They can't do that. They'd be

[05:59] jeopardizing their case and they'd be

[06:02] jeopardizing

[06:03] uh a jury if they jumped in on every

[06:07] possible

[06:09] um rumor that was going around. They

[06:12] base their prosecution on evidence

[06:16] and the conspiracy theory about me.

[06:20] Okay, they they looked at it because

[06:21] they asked me a question. The FBI called

[06:23] me up and asked me the question. I said

[06:25] it's nonsense. That was it. And the

[06:27] reason they have to do that in a trial

[06:29] is because a defense attorney is going

[06:31] to say, "Well, did you check into this

[06:32] and did you check into that?" And so

[06:35] then the prosecution could say, "Yeah,

[06:36] we checked into it. It went nowhere.

[06:38] That's not that's not what happened."

[06:41] Now, it's fine for Candace to say,

[06:43] "Well, look at this and look at that and

[06:45] and this could be true and that could be

[06:47] true." But as soon as you cross the line

[06:49] and start saying so and so is guilty or

[06:52] suggesting strongly so and so is guilty

[06:54] when you don't have the evidence that's

[06:57] causing dissension among the brothers.

[07:00] And that's something the Lord hates.

[07:02] There's people who have enough pain in

[07:04] their lives. You don't need to add pain

[07:07] when people are going through this. And

[07:09] apparently she said that I was the only

[07:12] one who was genuine in history. Look, I

[07:14] haven't watched everything. I've just

[07:15] been told about it. Um, who has the time

[07:19] to watch everything? Nobody does.

[07:20] >> Right. Exactly.

[07:22] >> But, um, she said, "I was the only

[07:24] genuine my was the only genuine

[07:26] reaction."

[07:28] [snorts]

[07:28] Billy, you know this. Reasonable people

[07:30] know this

[07:32] that a psychologist even with somebody

[07:36] on the couch in front of them can't

[07:40] um completely diagnose people accurately

[07:43] all the time. You don't diagnose people

[07:46] from video

[07:48] uh very fragmentaryary video and tell

[07:53] them or make a judgment and say oh this

[07:57] person didn't act normally there is no

[08:00] normal behavior

[08:01] >> in a situation like that in a situation

[08:04] like that of course I mean how there

[08:05] absolutely there's no normal

[08:07] >> there is no normal behavior it's it's

[08:10] when you have an abnormal event like

[08:12] that that none of us have experienced

[08:14] Nobody knows how they're going to react.

[08:17] Candace Owens is well within her rights

[08:19] to suggest certain things and all this

[08:21] and she has the right to free speech and

[08:24] all that. That that's fine. She's right

[08:25] right to ask questions. I just think it

[08:29] is hurtful and not helpful when you

[08:33] cross a line to strongly suggest

[08:35] somebody's guilty of something for which

[08:38] you have no evidence.

[08:41] Yeah,

[08:42] >> there's a difference between a

[08:43] possibility and evidence. And I see this

[08:44] all the time in Christian apologetics.

[08:47] People will say, "Well, maybe this

[08:48] happened to Jesus' body or that happened

[08:49] to Jesus' body." And that's how you

[08:51] explain what the resurrection is. It

[08:53] really wasn't a resurrection. Those are

[08:55] all possible, but give me first century

[08:57] evidence for those possibilities. Oh, we

[08:59] don't have any. Okay. Well, it's just a

[09:01] possibility then. Possibilities are not

[09:04] evidence. You need evidence. And that's

[09:06] what the prosecution is working on. Who

[09:08] knows? When the prosecution goes through

[09:10] everything, maybe some of the things

[09:12] Candace said are right. I have no idea.

[09:14] I can tell you for certain, as far as I

[09:16] know, there was no shot that came from

[09:18] behind me. If there was a shot that came

[09:21] from behind me, I would have known it

[09:22] cuz I was really close. It's 25 ft from

[09:26] Charlie off his right elbow. If a shot

[09:29] came from that side, I would have heard

[09:31] it

[09:32] >> a lot louder than I did. You know, let

[09:35] me ask you this, and I know it's painful

[09:37] to ponder, but I do want to go back to

[09:38] it because you've beautifully spoken

[09:41] about so many things that are difficult

[09:43] to talk about in in the last few weeks

[09:45] even. What was going through your heart

[09:48] and your mind as you were there at that

[09:50] event in those moments when you realized

[09:53] what was happening?

[09:56] >> Well, I was facetiming my son and

[09:59] daughter-in-law, and my daughter-in-law

[10:01] said, "The first thing you said was,

[10:02] "No, no, no." And you know I cuz I had

[10:06] the phone on and I I took a step toward

[10:08] Charlie but his team was already there.

[10:10] And then I duck because I thought well

[10:12] maybe there's more shots coming and

[10:15] within a second they were two sec. I

[10:18] don't know how long it was very short. I

[10:19] mean they were carrying him out of

[10:22] there. So I ran with them to the car and

[10:26] just as I said I I was afraid somebody

[10:29] at some point would take a shot at

[10:30] Charlie. And so my thought was what what

[10:32] would I do? I would do everything

[10:33] everything I could to try and save him,

[10:35] whatever that was, because I couldn't

[10:37] live with myself if I didn't. And you'd

[10:39] have done the same thing if you were

[10:41] there, Billy. He was a friend of yours.

[10:43] You know, he was like a son to me. You

[10:46] know what father's going to say, I'll

[10:47] just stay back here while you go get in

[10:49] the car and take him to the hospital?

[10:50] No, you're going to get in that car and

[10:51] do whatever you can. Now, as I I said in

[10:55] this video that we just recorded last

[10:56] night was it was just a someone asked me

[10:59] a question about Candace, so I answered

[11:00] it. But,

[11:02] um,

[11:04] you know, I if if this thing had to

[11:07] happen in the sense it was going to

[11:09] happen, I wanted to be there because at

[11:11] least I know now that there's nothing I

[11:13] could have done,

[11:15] >> right?

[11:15] >> I mean, he was gone when we got him in

[11:17] the car. And you describe seeing that

[11:19] and knowing that. And

[11:21] >> has it I mean in what ways, if any, has

[11:24] this challenged you spiritually.

[11:28] >> Um it just further cements my belief

[11:32] that evil exists and therefore God

[11:35] exists.

[11:36] Um I know God can bring good from evil.

[11:38] He does it all the time. We've seen it

[11:40] even since Charlie's death. Not not that

[11:42] if I couldn't go back and change things

[11:44] I would. Um,

[11:46] >> but the revival you're talking the

[11:48] revival, the outpouring, the what we've

[11:50] seen spiritually since then.

[11:52] >> Yeah. Charlie's looking down going,

[11:54] "Well, that was worth it."

[11:55] >> I mean, you know, if if we were to say,

[11:58] um, Charlie, you know, 100 people would

[12:01] come to faith if you gave yourself as a

[12:03] martyr. He'd go, "Sign me up. That's

[12:04] what my life was about anyway." Right?

[12:06] But it's been a lot more than that. Now,

[12:08] of course, he wouldn't want to leave

[12:09] Eric and the kids, but um he knows that

[12:13] in the long run that good things can

[12:16] come from evil things and that God can

[12:18] work everything together for good to

[12:20] those that love God and are called

[12:21] according to his purpose. And that the

[12:24] eternal is what we need to keep our eyes

[12:26] on as Paul said in 2 Corinthians 4, you

[12:29] know.

[12:30] >> Yeah. Well, and I mean, you've answered

[12:32] some tough questions on this too, of

[12:33] course. You know, you were on Megan

[12:34] Kelly's show and she asked how a loving

[12:36] God could allow the devil to take this

[12:38] angel from us, referring to to Charlie.

[12:40] And you gave, you know, a beautiful

[12:41] answer to that, but that is the question

[12:43] people will always ask. You know, why?

[12:44] Why did this have to happen? And you,

[12:46] what you just said before is very

[12:48] interesting because the existence of

[12:49] evil always points back to to good,

[12:52] points back to God. But people don't

[12:53] always make that connection. They stop

[12:55] at the existence of evil, right? It

[12:57] pauses them. It freezes them in a fear

[12:59] or an anger or whatever their emotion

[13:01] they're feeling. Um, can you talk a

[13:04] little bit more about that that answer

[13:05] that you gave Megan Kelly because other

[13:07] people are going to watch us right now

[13:08] and they maybe they didn't hear that

[13:09] response you gave and they are

[13:11] struggling with the same thing. How

[13:12] would a loving God allow this to happen?

[13:14] >> How [clears throat] would a loving God

[13:15] allow Jesus to be killed? He's the only

[13:17] truly innocent person in history and yet

[13:19] he was brutally murdered. Yet the most

[13:21] good came out of that evil than any

[13:23] other evil, the salvation of billions of

[13:26] people. Because an infinitely just God

[13:28] can't allow sin to go unpunished. If he

[13:31] allows sin to go unpunished, he's not

[13:33] infinitely just.

[13:36] Uh but he doesn't want to punish us

[13:37] because he's also infinitely loving. So

[13:40] in order for him to remain just, he has

[13:42] to punish an innocent substitute in our

[13:44] place. And where can he find an innocent

[13:46] substitute? Not in any one of us. We're

[13:48] all sinners. The only place he can find

[13:50] an innocent substitute is in himself. So

[13:52] he adds humanity to his deity, comes to

[13:54] earth and allows the creatures that

[13:56] rebelled against him to torture and kill

[13:58] him so he could take our punishment upon

[14:01] himself. And therefore by trusting in

[14:03] him, we not only are forgiven, we are

[14:05] given his righteousness. And this that's

[14:08] why Paul says in in in Romans 3:26, God

[14:11] remains just and is the justifier of the

[14:15] one who has faith in Jesus. That's why I

[14:17] said at the memorial, do you want

[14:19] justice from an infinitely just God?

[14:22] Because there's only two things you can

[14:24] get in the afterlife. You can get

[14:25] justice or you can get grace.

[14:28] I don't want justice. If I got justice,

[14:30] I'd be toast. I want grace. And that's

[14:34] what Jesus gives us. He gives us grace.

[14:36] So evil does not disprove God. It may

[14:39] prove there's a devil out there, but it

[14:41] doesn't disprove God. It shows God does

[14:43] exist and he can bring good from evil.

[14:46] And of course, God allows evil because

[14:48] he allows free will. And he allows free

[14:49] will because that's the only way you can

[14:52] allow love to take place. We're not a

[14:54] robot world. We're a world where our

[14:56] choices make a real difference whether

[14:58] for good or for evil.

[15:00] What do you think? I mean, there's also

[15:02] been so much conversation about Charlie,

[15:04] right? You he was like a son to you. You

[15:05] were incredibly close. And watching

[15:08] people say different things about what

[15:09] Charlie believed. Was he changing his

[15:11] opinion on Israel? There's all of these

[15:13] things that are out there. What do you

[15:14] think are the biggest misconceptions

[15:16] about Charlie in general?

[15:20] >> Uh well, he certainly wasn't changing

[15:21] his view on Israel. Uh because we had a

[15:24] meeting the day before he was murdered

[15:25] with two people in Israel and a guy

[15:28] living here via Zoom. And the whole

[15:30] premise of the meeting was how Charlie

[15:31] wanted to know how could I better answer

[15:33] questions from college kids

[15:36] uh on the Israel Hamas situation. I

[15:40] mean, Charlie was frustrated that some

[15:42] people thought that he had to agree with

[15:45] everything the Israeli government did,

[15:47] otherwise he was somehow anti-Semitic. I

[15:50] agree that that's a frustration because

[15:52] when even if you agree that the Bible

[15:54] says you ought to bless, you know, the

[15:56] descendants of Abraham, you ought to

[15:58] bless Israel, bless doesn't mean you

[16:01] agree with people on everything. Right?

[16:03] If you want to bless your kid, you don't

[16:04] agree with your kid on everything. You

[16:05] tell them the truth and correct them. In

[16:08] fact, um that's what love is. Love

[16:11] doesn't mean approval. Love means

[16:12] seeking what's best for the other person

[16:14] according to the will of God. And that

[16:15] requires correction quite a bit. So

[16:18] Charlie was frustrated that some people

[16:20] were were saying he's an anti-semite if

[16:22] he doesn't agree with Israel on

[16:24] everything. The other thing that we

[16:26] talked about quite a bit is the fact

[16:27] that

[16:29] um some people will say, well, you know,

[16:31] the current government of Israel is

[16:33] apostate. Why would you support them?

[16:35] Hey, news flash for you Bible scholars

[16:38] who don't tend to look at the Bible.

[16:40] >> The entire government of Israel in the

[16:44] Bible was apostate. Every single king

[16:47] from the from the northern kingdom was

[16:50] evil and only a few a handful from Judah

[16:53] >> were following Yahweh. And what did God

[16:56] do? He judged them over and over again.

[16:59] So this idea that, you know, we can't

[17:03] support the current government of Israel

[17:05] because they're apostate would mean we

[17:07] couldn't support any government of

[17:09] Israel because they're apostate. But

[17:11] again, to caveat that, it doesn't mean

[17:14] that we have to agree with everything

[17:15] any government does. God didn't agree

[17:17] with the governments of Israel, even

[17:19] though he appointed them because of

[17:20] their bad behavior. So

[17:24] this this idea that he was getting away

[17:26] from Israel is not true. He knew they

[17:28] were a great friend in the region. He

[17:30] knew that they were the only democracy

[17:32] there. He knew that Islam is a great

[17:35] threat uh in terms of religious freedom

[17:37] and freedom of of uh speech. Um also the

[17:42] idea was he was becoming Catholic is

[17:44] nonsense.

[17:45] >> I was I was going to ask you about that.

[17:47] This has been a huge thing

[17:48] [clears throat] that he was becoming a

[17:49] Catholic that he was

[17:51] >> No, you say no.

[17:52] >> No, no, no, no. But he had great respect

[17:55] for the Catholic Church as I do because

[17:57] a lot of what the Catholic Church has

[18:00] done is good. There's of course plenty

[18:01] they've done that's bad. They do have a

[18:03] great intellectual history and we agree

[18:05] on many of the essentials although we do

[18:07] have some serious disagreements.

[18:09] And what Charlie did like was when he

[18:12] went to a Catholic church, nobody would

[18:15] bother him. You know, you go to a

[18:17] Protestant church, everybody wants

[18:19] selfies with him all the time, right? So

[18:21] he did enjoy the the first of all the

[18:24] beauty of a Catholic church. Look, I

[18:26] came out of the Catholic faith. Let me

[18:27] admit the Catholics know how to build a

[18:29] church. Protestants building these boxes

[18:32] that look like uh warehouses with

[18:34] concert like a concert hall. It's not

[18:36] very it's not very um what's the word

[18:39] I'm looking for here? It's not very

[18:42] reverent. Okay. Meanwhile, you got some

[18:44] Protestant pastor up there with skinny

[18:46] jeans and a and a fog machine. It looks

[18:49] like he just he just um came from

[18:52] cleaning his garage. There's not a lot

[18:54] of reverence there. So, I understand the

[18:56] frustration that me and Charlie have

[18:59] with some of the Protestant uh

[19:01] practices, but that doesn't mean

[19:03] theologically he was a Catholic. He was

[19:05] not.

[19:06] >> Yeah. I mean, those are the two big

[19:08] ones, right, that that have come up in

[19:10] all of this. And it's frustrating when

[19:11] that happens because the person is not

[19:13] there to defend themselves. So you have

[19:14] to do it, other people have to do it and

[19:16] explain it because people are making

[19:18] again definitive claims without

[19:20] evidence. Um and you know when you look

[19:24] at all of this,

[19:26] one of the things that has been very

[19:28] interesting to watch is that you guys

[19:30] are not backing down. You're showing up

[19:31] to as many college campuses as you

[19:33] possibly can. Talk a little bit about

[19:36] that. Why are you so resolute to

[19:38] continue this? And what are you hoping

[19:39] to accomplish through that?

[19:41] >> Well, Jesus would want us to do it. He

[19:42] does want us to do it. And so so did

[19:44] Charlie. So we didn't cancel any of our

[19:46] events. We had an event on a week after

[19:47] the the murder. We've done uh since then

[19:50] five campus events. We've got uh several

[19:53] coming up. We've got Ohio State November

[19:55] 3rd. We've got Berkeley November 10th.

[19:58] Charlie and I were supposed to go to

[19:59] that together. He'll remain in glory.

[20:00] I'm going there with Rob Schneider.

[20:02] That's a TPUSA event. Then we've got

[20:04] Alabama November 13th and Boise State on

[20:07] November 20th. Uh that's just this

[20:09] semester. We got a whole bunch next

[20:11] semester. The reason we want to do it,

[20:13] well, I've been doing this for almost 20

[20:15] years. And and uh we normally go and do

[20:18] I don't have enough faith to be an

[20:19] atheist, a presentation based on the

[20:21] book I co-wrote with Dr. Norman Gistler.

[20:23] Now we're doing if God, why evil, and

[20:25] we're doing mostly Q&A in honor of

[20:27] Charlie Kirk. So we're giving we're

[20:30] dealing with the issue, why would we God

[20:31] allow this? Why would we God allow evil?

[20:33] And then we're taking questions. So

[20:35] there's a a period now where hearts and

[20:38] minds are open, hearts are tender, and

[20:40] so we want to try and reach out to

[20:43] people who are now open to hearing about

[20:45] Christianity. You know, the Charlie

[20:47] effect is pretty strong right now, and

[20:49] we're going to do everything we can to

[20:51] reach people during this window of

[20:53] opportunity.

[20:54] >> I love that. I love that. And you know,

[20:58] last question for you, but when when you

[21:00] think about Charlie's legacy long term,

[21:05] uh, you know, a lot of people knew him

[21:06] for politics, they didn't understand

[21:08] fully that what what faith meant to him.

[21:11] Many people did, but some people didn't,

[21:12] right? They associated him with politics

[21:14] only. And yet in his death and I and I

[21:17] noticed this a couple of years before

[21:19] really how much he had pivoted in it

[21:21] felt and really it was amazing to watch

[21:24] some of those events he would do in

[21:25] Arizona. Um you know the faith events he

[21:28] would do once a month. Really incredible

[21:30] to see that. What do you think his

[21:31] legacy is? Because it feels I mean from

[21:33] a revival standpoint pretty incredible

[21:36] right now.

[21:38] >> Yes. I think Charlie was someone who was

[21:40] sort of a combination of Rush Limbbo and

[21:43] Billy Graham.

[21:44] and uh he knew his politics and he knew

[21:47] his faith well. But what motivated his

[21:50] politics was his faith. He wasn't a

[21:52] conservative because he was a

[21:54] conservative first. He was a

[21:55] conservative because he was a Christian

[21:57] first. And conservative means we can

[21:59] serve what we know is true, right, and

[22:01] beautiful. And that's what he was

[22:03] fighting for in the public square. Uh

[22:07] but his first love of course is Jesus.

[22:10] That's what that what that's what was

[22:11] motivating him. In fact, a month before

[22:13] he died in an interview, he said,

[22:14] "Politics is peanuts compared to the

[22:16] gospel." It's important because it it

[22:20] helps us uh take care of people. We're

[22:23] supposed to love people. And uh it also

[22:27] helps us have religious freedom so we

[22:28] can preach the gospel. I mean, when

[22:30] people say, "I just preach the gospel. I

[22:31] don't get involved in politics." I say,

[22:33] "I guess you don't think the gospel is

[22:34] very important then because politics

[22:36] affects your ability to preach and live

[22:38] the gospel. If you don't think so, go to

[22:39] North Korea and try and preach the

[22:41] gospel. There's no First Baptist Church

[22:43] of Riad. There's no Calvary Chapel of

[22:45] Tehran. Why? Because politically they

[22:47] don't allow it. So Charlie knew that. He

[22:50] said politics is not our first priority,

[22:53] but it helps us do our first priority.

[22:57] And so he knew it was important to be

[22:58] politically engaged. So I think his

[23:01] legacy is already cemented as he's a

[23:04] martyr because he was killed for his

[23:06] faith. Uh and you say, well no, he was

[23:09] killed because he had certain political

[23:10] view. Why did he have those political

[23:11] views? Because of his faith. Because he

[23:13] knew what the truth was. And he was out

[23:17] there

[23:19] uh trying to reach people with that in

[23:21] an open forum because he wanted people

[23:23] to know the truth and he wanted people

[23:25] to know Jesus. And he knew that in order

[23:28] to do that, he had to put himself in

[23:29] harm's way to a certain extent because

[23:32] you can't reach out to people protecting

[23:34] yourself with 100% security. In fact,

[23:36] when we we got there on our way there

[23:38] that morning, that morning, I said to

[23:40] him, Charlie, I don't like this place.

[23:41] There's too many buildings. You know, he

[23:43] just shrugged it off because he knew

[23:46] >> that people were there and they wanted

[23:48] they wanted to hear

[23:50] >> what he had to say and they they wanted

[23:52] he wanted to try and convince them of

[23:53] the truth.

[23:55] >> And that's what a loving person does. It

[23:57] just frosts me to no end that people

[23:59] call him a fascist. I mean, it's exactly

[24:02] the opposite. How many fascists, Billy,

[24:04] do you know who offer their opponents

[24:05] the microphone and say, "Go ahead, make

[24:06] your case. Let me hear what you have to

[24:08] say."

[24:08] >> None. That would be none. Yeah, that

[24:10] doesn't happen.

[24:10] >> Yeah. It's It's the guy that murdered

[24:12] him that's the fascist. And many people

[24:13] on the left are like this. They're all

[24:15] about inclusion, tolerance, and

[24:16] diversity, which means exactly the

[24:18] opposite of what you think it means. It

[24:21] means if you don't agree with us, we

[24:22] won't include you. We won't tolerate you

[24:24] for holding diverse views. In fact, we

[24:25] may even murder you.

[24:27] >> Yeah.

[24:27] >> Now, of course, we can't say that of all

[24:29] leftists. Thankfully, most of them are

[24:31] not going to murder you. But this whole

[24:33] oppressor oppressed worldview that has

[24:36] has has come up in recent years, this

[24:38] critical theory worldview which says

[24:40] regardless of your personal behavior, if

[24:42] you're in this certain category, you're

[24:44] an oppressor.

[24:47] That is motivating people to move to

[24:49] violence because if you're an evil

[24:50] oppressor, you not you need to die.

[24:52] That's what many people think. That's

[24:54] not Christianity. Christianity is people

[24:56] are judged by their own personal

[24:58] behavior, not what identity group, some

[25:01] leftist professor has stamped you with.

[25:04] >> Wow. I mean, there there's so much more.

[25:07] We could do an hour and and I'll

[25:08] probably beg you to come back again

[25:10] soon, but there's a lot here. I

[25:12] appreciate you taking the time. You

[25:13] know, you do such incredible work. Where

[25:14] can people go to get more information on

[25:16] you and and the great gospel work that

[25:18] you do?

[25:19] >> Yes, it's crossexamine.org.

[25:21] Cross-examined with a D on the end of

[25:22] it. We have a podcast called I don't

[25:24] have enough faith to be an atheist. It's

[25:26] on YouTube. Our YouTube channel is

[25:27] cross-examine two words or wherever you

[25:30] get podcasts. Of course, we have

[25:31] Instagram and all that. Just go to

[25:32] cross-examine.org. It'll be up there.

[25:35] >> Frank, I appreciate you taking the time

[25:37] today.

[25:38] >> Thank you, Billy. Appreciate it.