How Charlie Kirk's Death Spawned a Meme Empire and Exposed the Fractures Within Far-Right Politics

[00:00] I had a couple people be like, "Oh, I

[00:01] thought these were funny and I liked

[00:03] them." And then my feed filled up with

[00:05] like insane stuff. [music]

[00:10] On September 10th, 2025, Charlie Kirk

[00:13] was shot to death in front of a crowd of

[00:15] students in Utah. Just a week and a half

[00:17] later, a massive rally and memorial was

[00:19] held in his honor at State Farm Stadium

[00:21] in Glendale, Arizona. The event was

[00:23] attended by over 90,000 people, and

[00:26] Donald Trump, JD Vance, Marco Rubio, and

[00:28] a slew of other high-profile political

[00:31] and media figures praised Kirk and

[00:33] framed his death as the start of a holy

[00:35] war. They claimed that his killing would

[00:37] result in millions of Charlie Kirks.

[00:39] >> Get married, have a million kids,

[00:43] and live out your American dream. And by

[00:47] doing that, we can create millions and

[00:48] millions and millions of Charlie Kirks.

[00:51] and we can save our land.

[00:54] >> Now, I believe with the assassination,

[00:57] with the heinous murder of Charlie Kirk

[01:01] that millions of Charlie Kirks were

[01:04] created today, that today will be a

[01:07] neverforget

[01:09] kind of day. Almost immediately, many me

[01:11] Charlie Kirk clones began cropping up

[01:13] and far-right Jenzie influencers began

[01:16] attempting to mimic Charlie's viral

[01:17] debate formats. The far-right also began

[01:20] cracking down on online speech. At least

[01:22] 600 Americans lost their jobs for saying

[01:25] stuff about Charlie Kirk online,

[01:27] including 50 academic administrators. By

[01:30] contrast, just 22 academics were fired

[01:32] in 2020 for Black Lives Matter

[01:34] commentary and 160 total for pro

[01:37] Palestine views, meaning the crackdown

[01:39] over Charlie Kirk was the most extreme

[01:41] form of cancel culture we've ever

[01:43] witnessed. Content creators like Asmin

[01:44] Gold claimed, quote, "This will

[01:46] radicalize a generation." And

[01:48] conservatives for weeks continued to

[01:50] push this idea that Charlie's death

[01:53] would be avenged. But pretty soon,

[01:55] things went off the rails. Hardly a

[01:57] month after Charlie died, his widow

[01:59] Erica Kirk was pictured giving an

[02:01] awkwardly close embrace to JD Vance in

[02:04] skintight pleather pants. Donald Trump

[02:06] pretty much all but forgot about Charlie

[02:08] Kirk, and very quickly, Charlie became a

[02:11] meme. Ryan Brick is an online culture

[02:13] journalist and he's been covering the

[02:15] great Kirkification. Today, he's joining

[02:17] me to talk about the rise of Charlie

[02:19] Kirk slop and what it's morphing into.

[02:22] Because as fun as it is to laugh at all

[02:24] the absurd memes featuring Charlie

[02:26] Kirk's face plastered onto like some M

[02:28] Prague emoji or whatever, lately the

[02:30] whole thing has taken a sharp turn and

[02:32] it's now funneling a lot of people right

[02:35] back into the far right. We're going to

[02:37] dig into this new hyperonline esoteric

[02:40] form of Nazism, explain the lore behind

[02:42] the mythical city of Agartha. You might

[02:45] have seen these edits of Charlie Kirk

[02:47] flying behind Alex Jones on Tik Tok or

[02:49] Instagram reels lately, and we're going

[02:51] to explain what all of this says about

[02:53] the current state of the internet,

[02:55] politics, and culture. Hi Ryan, welcome

[02:58] to Power User Podcast.

[02:59] >> Hi, thanks for having me. All right. So,

[03:01] I want to kind of dive back for people

[03:04] that might have been seeing these

[03:05] Charlie Kirk memes on their timeline,

[03:06] but can't really remember. I feel like

[03:08] we all entered in such a fugue state

[03:09] this fall, like how this all began. When

[03:12] did the sort of like circification

[03:14] begin? When did things move from

[03:17] memorializing, eulogizing Charlie Kirk

[03:19] to memeing him? How did that all start?

[03:22] >> I was surprised to find out that it

[03:24] happened pretty much immediately. best

[03:26] as I can tell, like within a week of his

[03:28] death, there were memes about him. These

[03:31] early memes were not exactly making fun

[03:33] of him. They were being passed around,

[03:35] particularly people in like the

[03:36] cryptocurrency world who were making

[03:38] like AI generated videos about what if

[03:40] Charlie Kirk was brought back as the

[03:42] Terminator. A lot of these are super

[03:43] racist. And the idea was sort of to

[03:46] venerate him while also playing with it

[03:48] and having fun with it. And then we've

[03:50] just sort of seen these memes kind of

[03:51] devolve over the last, you know, couple

[03:54] months. Some people were of course

[03:56] memeing the day of and like the like

[03:58] hashtag Charlie squirt and like some of

[04:01] the content then was was out there and

[04:03] then like there was this sort of

[04:04] crackdown and policing of social media.

[04:06] People were potentially getting fired

[04:08] from their jobs. I feel like it pulled

[04:09] back and you saw a lot of AI slop that

[04:11] wasn't necessarily intentionally memeing

[04:13] him, but like the one where he ascends

[04:15] with the flag of Israel around him to

[04:17] God or whatever that was sort of like I

[04:18] feel like it ended up as an ironic meme

[04:20] by people on the left, but it wasn't

[04:22] necessarily intended that way. And I

[04:24] feel like that's sort of seems to be the

[04:26] a lot of this stuff like even the We Are

[04:28] Charlie Kirk song which went viral. It

[04:30] seems like it started off as serious and

[04:33] then sort of got twisted. So can you

[04:35] talk through kind of like the evolution

[04:36] of just in the first month like how the

[04:39] memeification of Charlie Kirk kind of

[04:40] progressed?

[04:41] >> Yeah. So what you're describing that

[04:43] kind of confusing like is this supposed

[04:46] to be serious or not thing. What that is

[04:49] is there is a massive chunk of what we

[04:52] would call normies who are super super

[04:54] conservative and far right now. MAGA is

[04:57] effectively mainstream and there's a lot

[04:59] of boomer accounts that make AI

[05:02] generated slop for MAGA boomers and more

[05:06] sophisticated more intellectual people

[05:08] on the far right younger people they

[05:10] find this very embarrassing. And so if

[05:12] you're on the outside looking in, it's

[05:14] actually very hard to tell what is

[05:18] ironically or genuinely being shared by

[05:20] these different right-wing factions. And

[05:23] a huge chunk of these young people hated

[05:26] Charlie Kirk cuz Charlie Kirk was

[05:28] embarrassing. Charlie Kirk was a

[05:29] sellout. Charlie Kirk was the Jenzi, the

[05:31] younger kind of person who sold out to

[05:34] them. So when he died, it kind of became

[05:36] a free-for-all. And you can see this

[05:39] interplay if you look really closely,

[05:41] but like from the from the outside it

[05:42] looks ridiculous. Like it all just looks

[05:44] like garbage slop, but there there are

[05:46] different people sharing this stuff for

[05:47] different reasons.

[05:48] >> Well, let's kind of break down those

[05:50] different factions of like the fandom

[05:52] and the I wouldn't even say anti-fandom,

[05:54] but maybe the haters. Like I feel like

[05:55] you have the mainstream Charlie Kirk

[05:58] fans that like you said are the maybe

[05:59] the authentic audience for the most

[06:01] cringe sort of slop out there, which are

[06:03] like the boomers basically. And then you

[06:06] have the leftists where everything is

[06:08] sort of ironic and obviously they hate

[06:10] Charlie Kirk because he was like a

[06:11] right-wing extremist. But talk about

[06:13] this other group because I I remember I

[06:15] mean in in the aftermath of his killing

[06:17] I feel like a lot of people including

[06:18] the New York Times like learned the word

[06:20] groper for the first time and weren't

[06:22] even aware of sort of like the Groper

[06:24] wars. So can you sort of fill people in

[06:25] on that lore and the different factions

[06:27] within the young conservative right?

[06:29] >> Yeah. So let let's break it down. Right.

[06:31] So, we've got MAGA as the new mainstream

[06:35] Republican party for all, you know,

[06:37] intents and purposes. They are the

[06:38] boomers. They are the the old guard now.

[06:41] I mean, MAGA has been going on for

[06:42] almost 15 years at this point, 10 years,

[06:44] right? So, they are seen as old and out

[06:47] of touch. And you have these younger Gen

[06:49] Z extremists. They're called gropers.

[06:51] Their name comes from like an obese Pepe

[06:53] the Frog meme. And their deacto leader

[06:55] is a Holocaust denying live streamer

[06:57] named Nicholas Fuentes. They aren't

[06:59] really as prevalent as they used to be

[07:02] as Nick Fuentes has become more popular,

[07:05] but their attitudes have spread. They're

[07:07] extremely xenophobic. They're extremely

[07:08] isolationist. They don't want any

[07:10] American military presence outside of

[07:12] the US. They believe in eugenics. They

[07:14] believe in no voting rights for women.

[07:16] They don't really believe in anything

[07:18] actually in a way like they are, I

[07:19] wouldn't say nihilistic, but they are

[07:21] the total race to the bottom end result

[07:23] of a decade under Trump's thumb. and

[07:25] they believe that Trump is being held

[07:27] back from being more extreme. And they

[07:29] hated Charlie Kirk to the point where

[07:31] they would show up and they would heckle

[07:32] him in real life to the point where the

[07:34] shooter was believed to have been a

[07:36] groper initially by the FBI or by

[07:38] certain journalists. It's a little

[07:39] uncomfortable to say this, but they have

[07:41] a sense of humor that is very irony

[07:43] based in the same way a lot of hardcore

[07:45] leftists are. and they're aware of this

[07:47] and so they'll insert like super super

[07:49] you know niche neoy imagery or

[07:52] references into their stuff hoping that

[07:54] it's ironically shared by leftists

[07:56] spread by people who don't know what

[07:58] they're talking about and they really

[08:00] just want to dogpile any trending topic

[08:02] and and Charlie Kirk's death was the

[08:04] biggest trending topic of the year.

[08:05] Let's like kind of explain I guess like

[08:07] the different types of memes that have

[08:08] arisen like in the sort of circification

[08:11] cuz I feel like we've seen stuff evolve

[08:13] like actually towards more of those

[08:15] extreme spaces like more of the content

[08:16] today. I think the meme content about

[08:18] Charlie Kirk today fits in line with the

[08:19] stuff that you're just talking about

[08:20] versus sort of what it was before. So

[08:22] right after Charlie died and like the

[08:24] memes that were posted at that point.

[08:26] When do you think that meme culture

[08:27] evolved to kind of become dominated

[08:29] mostly by these like hyper online like

[08:31] extremists? So the the Charlie Kirk

[08:33] Terminator stuff was definitely the

[08:34] first one. It's like an AI generated web

[08:37] series about what if Charlie Kirk was

[08:39] brought back as a cyborg and then him

[08:40] and Hitler, Alex Jones like traveled

[08:42] around the world beating up black people

[08:44] and liberals and stuff and it's promoted

[08:46] by a lot of cryptocurrency people and

[08:48] it's been kicking around since

[08:49] September. So that's like the first big

[08:51] one. Then you also have leftists that

[08:53] are trying to push exactly how offensive

[08:55] they can be about Charlie Kirk. And this

[08:58] dovetailed with the Trump administration

[09:00] really going all in on revering Charlie

[09:03] Kirk as a martyr. So as Trump became

[09:05] more hysterical about Charlie Kirk's

[09:07] death and how we should all honor it,

[09:08] the more it became a taboo that people

[09:10] could sort of start to manipulate or or

[09:12] or play with. And so this is where you

[09:14] start to see people using Kirkin on it

[09:16] as a euphemism for oral sex because he's

[09:20] the throat goat. This is where you start

[09:21] to see the kind of like dips out for

[09:23] Harambe style absurdist dark humor about

[09:26] Charlie Kirk's death. I saw a conspiracy

[09:28] theory being passed around ironically

[09:30] that he didn't die, his neck just did

[09:31] that. Like there's all this kind of

[09:33] stuff circulating and this is happening

[09:35] like late September, early October. And

[09:37] as this is happening in the background,

[09:39] a lot of AI generated accounts targeting

[09:42] conservative boomers are making insane

[09:46] AI slop about Charlie Kirk. is also

[09:48] showing up in like megaurches where

[09:50] Charlie Kirk is like being AI generated

[09:52] into a video where he's talking to

[09:53] Jesus. And as these accounts become more

[09:56] popular, people start discovering more

[09:57] and more surreal, weird AI generated,

[10:00] genuinely shared Kirk content. All of

[10:03] this starts to collide last month

[10:06] basically. And this is where you get,

[10:08] you know, the the AI face swaps of

[10:10] Charlie Kirk, the deep fakes where

[10:11] they're they're taking his face and

[10:12] they're they're putting it onto like

[10:14] rappers and famous memes.

[10:15] >> Yeah. How did that start? cuz I feel

[10:17] like suddenly every single face that you

[10:19] started to see on the internet was

[10:21] replaced with Charlie Kirk.

[10:22] >> I can tell you how it started because I

[10:24] reached out to the person who started it

[10:25] and they ghosted me and I'm very mad

[10:27] about it. So right now they're going by

[10:29] money spread. They're an account on X

[10:31] that just makes tons of these, tons and

[10:34] tons of these. And I did reach out to

[10:36] them and they they talked to me very

[10:37] briefly and I asked him like, "What are

[10:39] your political views?" And they

[10:40] completely ghosted me, which I don't

[10:41] really know what to make of that. It

[10:43] could be that they are a groper and they

[10:44] thought it was funny. It could also be

[10:45] that they just don't care at all and

[10:47] they realized that like it was pissing

[10:48] people off or making people laugh and

[10:50] they kept doing it and then that has

[10:52] spread and then that as that's spreading

[10:54] we have a ton of Charlie Kirk like

[10:58] groper slop spreading around Tik Tok. So

[11:00] this is the stuff that we can go further

[11:02] into about like Agartha and Hyperoreia.

[11:05] And then we also have the AI generated

[11:07] song we are Charlie Kirk which goes

[11:09] viral after it's already gone viral

[11:11] among conservatives. So basically like

[11:13] apolitical posters and leftists and

[11:15] liberals discover that it's so popular

[11:17] on Spotify and then that goes viral in

[11:20] its own way. So now there's tons of

[11:21] remixes and so all of it's basically

[11:24] like all these different corners of the

[11:25] internet are making fun of Charlie Kirk

[11:27] and making fun of the martyr status that

[11:29] was sort of imposed upon him by the

[11:31] administration. And the point that I've

[11:33] tried to make in a couple different

[11:34] pieces, including one in the Rolling

[11:35] Stone, is that Trump has always sort of

[11:38] succeeded by not having standards, by

[11:40] not respecting anything, by not really

[11:41] caring, by being this sort of cultural

[11:43] wrecking ball. And that veneer kind of

[11:45] broke in September because suddenly

[11:48] they're making us do like flags at half

[11:50] mass for him and there's, you know,

[11:52] televised funerals for him and all this

[11:53] stuff. And it's like, well, wait a

[11:54] minute. Like, if the administration

[11:56] cares about something, that means that

[11:58] we can bother them. We can mess with

[12:00] them. We can troll them. And that is a

[12:02] first. Actually, it is kind of amazing

[12:04] to find like the one red line for

[12:06] Trumpists. And now that people have

[12:09] found it, both leftists and extreme

[12:10] right-wing people, extreme far-right

[12:12] people are triggering MAGA that way.

[12:13] It's it's it's kind of fascinating.

[12:15] >> Yeah. It's kind of also just like seems

[12:16] like so the opposite of what people were

[12:19] claiming in the wake of Kirk's death

[12:20] when there was the big, you know, rally

[12:23] in Arizona and they're like, "Well,

[12:24] we're going to have a million Charlie

[12:26] Kirks and like you started this movement

[12:27] or you had the Magabombs being like, I'm

[12:29] raising my lions, you know, to stand up

[12:31] to the woke culture and it seems like it

[12:33] just sort of backfired on them."

[12:35] >> I think it absolutely backfired on them.

[12:37] And historically, it does. I mean, you

[12:39] don't even have to go that far back in

[12:40] history, but like, you know, the guy who

[12:42] built a contraption to kill the prime

[12:44] minister of Japan and then his party

[12:46] apologized for their connections to like

[12:48] a scam church, like Luigi Manion, like

[12:51] like political violence does have

[12:53] typically, I don't want to say it gets

[12:55] results, but like it does impact how

[12:57] people talk about stuff and think about

[12:59] stuff. And I think the far right and the

[13:00] right-wing and the MAGA world were very

[13:02] naive to imagine that there would just

[13:04] be like a ton of people wanting to line

[13:06] up and become the next Charlie Kirk and

[13:08] literally be put in the crosshairs. Like

[13:09] I I think it has had a really chilling

[13:12] effect on on on certain parts of the

[13:15] MAGA world.

[13:15] >> Yeah, it feels like also very quickly it

[13:17] just made the MAGA world seem very corny

[13:19] and boomer and out of touch and lame. It

[13:22] is fascinating to me that like the

[13:23] biggest impact of Charlie Kirk's death

[13:25] is that everyone around Trump looks like

[13:27] a boring old boomer who sucks and like

[13:29] it is lame. They've always sucked and

[13:31] they've always been awful, but like they

[13:32] look lame now.

[13:33] >> Let's dive into the ways that it's sort

[13:35] of like going now because I feel like

[13:37] you've done a good job of breaking down

[13:39] kind of how these memes are evolving and

[13:41] being weaponized in sort of these more

[13:43] esoteric spaces. I don't even know what

[13:46] to call. Is there like a name for this

[13:48] like weird movement on the internet of

[13:49] like the Agartha type stuff?

[13:51] >> GQ did like a big list of like all the

[13:53] different Kirk memes flying around right

[13:55] now and they called them Aarthan Charlie

[13:58] Kirk memes or Aarthan Charlie Kirk

[14:00] edits. That's probably as good as you're

[14:02] going to get. But there are a bunch of

[14:03] these that don't involve Charlie Kirk

[14:05] and the whole thing predates him. Well,

[14:08] so let's zoom back and talk about kind

[14:09] of like the evolution of that movement

[14:12] because I feel like what we're seeing

[14:13] with the agarthification of Charlie Kirk

[14:16] is like you said, it's sort of this like

[14:17] movement that was a little bit before

[14:19] him that's kind of like taken him on now

[14:21] as like the face of their like digital

[14:24] content initiatives I guess. Tell me a

[14:26] little bit about like kind of that

[14:27] faction of posters online and kind of

[14:30] where they emerged from. So basically

[14:32] like Trump loses the election, you know,

[14:34] COVID has hit, Trumpism is feeling a

[14:36] little stale, especially the whole like

[14:38] Pepe the Frog wave of it, right? And so

[14:41] in lockdown and immediately after that

[14:43] sort of 2021 to 2022 period that people

[14:48] were sort of describing as like a

[14:50] far-right vibe shift, you know, like all

[14:52] that silly stuff that what that really

[14:54] is is a lot of different far-right

[14:56] extremists experimenting with finding

[14:58] other forms of fascist iconography and

[15:02] imagery and and symbolism that they can

[15:04] they can play with. And one of the most

[15:07] effective things they stumble across is

[15:10] like Nazi occultism because it's it fits

[15:13] very well with the kind of new surreal

[15:15] brain rot that's becoming popular with

[15:17] Gen Z. So you start to see the Nazi

[15:20] Black Sun Sonnenrad stuff pop up and you

[15:23] start to see skits wave edits and creepy

[15:27] pasta about the Holocaust and and this

[15:29] stuff about the lost city of Agartha

[15:31] that only white people can access at the

[15:33] center of the hollow earth. And I sound

[15:35] like a total maniac when I'm talking

[15:36] about this stuff. And you're supposed to

[15:38] like the whole idea is like what if you

[15:39] create a bunch of memes around the far

[15:42] right that can never be properly

[15:45] explained by people like you and me.

[15:46] Like that we could never go on CNN and

[15:48] be like, "Okay, so like all these like

[15:50] racist teenagers on TikTok believe that

[15:52] like there's a secret city in the center

[15:54] of the earth." You know, like that's

[15:55] ridiculous.

[15:56] >> Also, I feel like you saw this

[15:57] increasingly like creeping out. You you

[16:00] give some examples in your piece that

[16:02] you wrote for Garbage Day, but you talk

[16:03] about like in 2022 the mass shooter in

[16:06] Buffalo used weapons covered in

[16:07] references to these ideas, including

[16:09] that black sun symbol. There was a whole

[16:12] Tik Tok trend in 2023 you wrote where

[16:13] users were making aesthetic fan cams of

[16:15] Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, hoping to

[16:18] like dupe unsuspecting Tik Tok users

[16:20] into sharing them. And yeah, Ronda

[16:23] Santis had an aid that had a son and rad

[16:25] symbol in his videos. And I don't know

[16:26] if you've seen this recently, but I feel

[16:27] like Hitler's speeches translated to

[16:29] English have also become popular sounds

[16:31] on reals.

[16:32] >> Oh, that's interesting cuz they were

[16:33] super popular on TikTok like two years

[16:35] ago. During that whole wave classical

[16:37] art fan edit era, they were also doing

[16:39] the AI translated species of Hitler. So,

[16:41] I mean that just proves that like meta

[16:43] products are two years behind like

[16:44] everything else, right? Oh, you guys

[16:45] just got AI translated Hitler? That's

[16:48] crazy. Like, welcome to Instagram. Yes,

[16:50] there is like a actually concerted

[16:52] effort from the top to spread this kind

[16:55] of content, but also this is a lot of

[16:57] people who are just messing around. Like

[16:59] this is I want to be really clear that

[17:01] like this is as conspiratorial as just

[17:04] like how f like fascist stuff works.

[17:06] Like it's not like there's one person

[17:07] being like the hot new thing is the

[17:09] sonnenrad. It's like they're

[17:11] experimenting with stuff and it it's

[17:13] very much like monkeys and typewriters

[17:14] and throwing stuff at the wall the way

[17:16] it's always been.

[17:17] >> Yeah. So after Kirk is shot, you wrote

[17:19] that, you know, this sort of imagery

[17:21] went into overdrive. Can you talk about

[17:23] how it kind of all fed together because

[17:26] I feel like really quickly now we

[17:27] started to see like a tsunami of these

[17:29] like Agartha, I guess all white Charlie

[17:32] Kirk edits where like Charlie Kirk is

[17:34] also super blonde like he looks very

[17:35] Aryan.

[17:36] >> Yeah. He gets an Aarthan makeover.

[17:38] Basically that's the idea is that like

[17:40] you become blonde and blue-eyed when you

[17:42] go down into Agartha. The reason it's

[17:44] spreading right now, especially after

[17:45] Charlie Kirk's death, is basically what

[17:47] we we kind of already talked about,

[17:48] which is that he is a sacred cow. You

[17:51] can attack him. You can piss off older

[17:53] people by doing it. In fact, I I did a

[17:55] video about this, like a short little

[17:56] reels like video being like, "Hey, like

[17:59] this is a thing," which it did get

[18:01] blocked from being uploaded to TikTok

[18:03] until I had to appeal, which I think is

[18:04] fascinating. But I had a couple people

[18:05] be like, "Oh, I thought these were funny

[18:07] and I liked them or I watched them and

[18:09] then my feed filled up with like insaney

[18:12] stuff." So, like it's clearly being used

[18:14] as the tip of the spear on algorithmic

[18:17] platforms. So, if they can make stuff

[18:18] that looks like it's making fun of

[18:20] Charlie Kirk, which they're they're they

[18:22] love doing because they hated him, then

[18:23] all of a sudden you're going to get hit

[18:24] with like hardcore neoy stuff and and

[18:27] that's happening on like every platform

[18:29] that has an algorithm.

[18:30] >> Love it. Where do you see this kind of

[18:31] like evolving? Cuz I feel like there's

[18:33] also I don't know. I mean, I feel like

[18:35] we've exhausted a lot of the Charlie

[18:36] Kirk formats. It's starting to slow

[18:39] down. And like I think he's just going

[18:41] to enter into that sort of like eternal

[18:43] realm where he's always kind of like

[18:44] like a present meme, but it's not like

[18:46] you it's not like as funny as it was

[18:48] when you first saw it like a few weeks

[18:50] after his death or whatever. But do you

[18:52] think that he like Charlie Kirk as a

[18:53] figure will continue to be used by

[18:55] certain factions of the right either as

[18:57] like somebody to mock or kind of as an

[19:00] example of kind of like cringe MAGA like

[19:02] millennial lame conservatism. Yeah, I

[19:05] might be wrong, but I sort of feel like

[19:07] the MAGA movement actually did die with

[19:08] Charlie Kirk. And we'll look back at it

[19:10] as like the moment like the whole thing

[19:11] kind of fell apart. The timing with the

[19:13] Epstein Files, I think also kind of

[19:15] added a bit to this. And in terms of

[19:17] like his meme status, I can't really

[19:19] think of a more fitting end for him than

[19:21] just to become the next Harambe. Like

[19:23] it'll be a thing where like every

[19:24] anniversary there'll be a wave of like

[19:25] offensive Charlie Kirk memes and like

[19:27] every time the administration tries to

[19:29] like use his memory, there'll be a wave

[19:31] of people making fun of it. He's just

[19:33] like a meme now that like will will

[19:35] cycle around the internet forever. Like

[19:38] probably the Gen Z equivalent of like

[19:39] making fun of 911 or the Gen Alpha

[19:41] equivalent.

[19:42] >> It feels like that. I mean, when you

[19:44] look at the new movement that's arising

[19:45] in place of MAGA because I agree with

[19:47] you and I think MAGA is definitely like

[19:49] that classic MAGA is on the decline. How

[19:52] do you see those factions like evolving

[19:54] and like do you think that that sort of

[19:56] younger more extreme Fentesled type

[19:58] movement is going to start gaining real

[20:00] political power? I mean, according to

[20:02] conservatives in DC, yes, like Rod

[20:04] Drier, like the, you know, prominent

[20:06] conservative, wrote a whole Substack

[20:08] post about how he went to DC and every

[20:10] aid was like a genuine neo-Nazi who love

[20:13] Nick Fuentes. So, like that's already

[20:15] happening. Like the the the the young

[20:17] part of the Republican party are these

[20:20] people. They will have to do the hard

[20:22] work of like seeing if being a hardcore

[20:24] neo-Nazi is good for like getting

[20:26] voters, right? like is esoteric and

[20:29] occultism a winning electoral strategy?

[20:32] Like I I don't really think it is. Maybe

[20:35] I'm naive but and or optimistic about

[20:37] America. I just don't see it working

[20:38] that way. I think as long as we are in

[20:40] like a fair and open democracy, like

[20:42] these guys are not going to do well if

[20:44] they go and publicly like say what they

[20:47] believe.

[20:47] >> I kind of agree with you, but also kind

[20:50] of like it is undeniable that they're

[20:52] pulling more people to the right. And

[20:54] like you're right that if they go out

[20:56] and start talking about like a Gartha or

[20:58] like doing those weird Nazi symbols like

[21:00] yeah that's offputting to a certain

[21:01] number of like normies but I also just

[21:03] think a lot more like normie people are

[21:05] becoming pled and like the culture

[21:07] generally is becoming more reactionary

[21:09] and right-wing and I think that's in

[21:10] large part because of the rise of these

[21:12] like that like super young super extreme

[21:15] like faction on the internet.

[21:16] >> You might be right. I might have

[21:17] rosecolored glasses because I just went

[21:19] home for Thanksgiving. But like this

[21:20] theory that I've been sort of sitting on

[21:22] and sort of had talked about. I sort of

[21:24] think the whole internet broke and like

[21:26] the average person doesn't care about

[21:28] any of this and that like all of this

[21:30] stuff doesn't matter. I think like a

[21:32] decade of Trumpism has made the internet

[21:34] so ugly and inhospitable that like the

[21:36] average person isn't being redpilled.

[21:37] Like I actually sort of think that like

[21:39] all internet discourse has no value

[21:41] anymore.

[21:42] >> Oh my gosh. Ryan, you're coming off

[21:43] Thanksgiving. I'm coming off like 20

[21:45] hours of watching this guy Clavvicular.

[21:48] This Jenz looks maxing kick streamer

[21:51] that I've been writing something about.

[21:53] >> Oh yeah, I've been watching the looks

[21:54] maxing guys on TikTok. They're super

[21:56] funny. I think it's a bit

[21:57] >> I don't think it's a bit for this guy.

[21:58] But I agree, but I think you're right.

[22:00] Most of it is just kids going through

[22:01] puberty. But I don't know. I just don't

[22:03] know. Like the internet does remain like

[22:05] the most powerful communication tool of

[22:06] our time. And I do think that like yeah,

[22:09] a lot of people are just like maxing out

[22:10] on brain rot and it's all kind of

[22:13] nothing. But it does feel like things

[22:14] have gotten further to the right.

[22:16] >> I think uh American culture is the most

[22:18] right-wing it's been since the Bush

[22:20] administration. Like I think we are very

[22:22] much in like a post 911 media

[22:24] environment where everything is very

[22:26] conservative and very reactionary. And

[22:28] in fact, there is a version where like

[22:31] the groper wing of the MAGA movement

[22:34] moves us further to the right by

[22:36] allowing coverage for MAGA people to

[22:41] like join the Democrats and move the

[22:43] Democrats. Right. Right. But also like a

[22:45] lot of sort of early, you know, primary

[22:48] stuff makes me think that that's not

[22:50] true. Like instead of trying to predict

[22:51] the future, what I will say is that like

[22:53] this stuff is popular to a point, but I

[22:55] think at a certain level of internet

[22:58] discourse, you become completely

[22:59] indecipherable to the average person.

[23:01] And that to me doesn't feel like it

[23:03] helps your political movement if you're

[23:05] just talking nonsense. Maybe I'm too old

[23:07] and naive, but like that's that's my

[23:09] thought. No, I do think that like

[23:11] especially the like Charlie Kirk stuff

[23:13] like that lore and all of those Agartha

[23:15] edits and all just the AI edits

[23:17] generally are so full of so many niche

[23:19] internet references. It is like you feel

[23:21] like you're looking at Italian brain rod

[23:23] or something where it's like you have to

[23:24] know every single kind of niche symbol

[23:26] to even understand what's happening in

[23:28] like the Tik Tok and that is unscrutable

[23:30] to everybody over the age of 17 and like

[23:32] ultimately probably not yeah like a

[23:34] winning way to to kind of convince

[23:35] people of anything. And yeah, I think

[23:37] it's funny that Charlie Kirk's legacy, I

[23:39] guess, is ultimately just going to be as

[23:40] like a meme and a punchline. And I don't

[23:42] think any of those younger Charlie Kirk

[23:44] wannabes have gotten any traction

[23:46] either. I mean, do you think we'll see

[23:47] another sort of Charlie Kirk in our

[23:49] lifetime?

[23:50] >> No. In fact, my pet theory was that like

[23:52] the major reaction we've seen mourning

[23:54] Charlie Kirk from the Trump

[23:55] administration and like prominent

[23:57] conservatives is that like he was their

[24:00] only hope for replacing Trump. Like JD

[24:02] Vance can never be Trump. Elon Musk

[24:04] can't even really do what Trump does.

[24:05] And I think that like a lot of ways

[24:07] Charlie Kirk was grown in a laboratory

[24:09] to be this like influencer president

[24:11] replacement to the TV show president and

[24:13] without him they have nothing because

[24:15] like that takes a long time. It's not

[24:17] going to be Tim P or Ben Shapiro or that

[24:20] kid whose name looks like a capa

[24:22] Bradland Hollander whatever. None of

[24:25] these people can do it. So, like without

[24:28] that, they're going to have to run

[24:30] traditional Republicans who might not be

[24:32] totally on board with the whole taking

[24:33] over America thing, or they're going to

[24:35] have to run alt-right weirdos who don't

[24:38] know how to talk like normal people.

[24:39] Charlie Kirk was the only thing they had

[24:41] that could have bridged that gap and

[24:43] he's gone. Maybe Erica Kirk, but she's a

[24:45] woman. They would never do that.

[24:46] >> No, they're not going to. Although, I do

[24:47] think the first woman president is going

[24:49] to be right-wing.

[24:50] >> Me, too. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that that

[24:52] hap that happened in the UK, so

[24:53] >> do you think it's like problematic? I've

[24:55] seen a lot of scolding of people

[24:57] especially in the past couple weeks like

[24:58] of making fun of Charlie Kirk and saying

[25:00] like, "Oh, you know, this is being used

[25:02] as a tool for the right." Do you think

[25:03] it's a problem for leftists to share

[25:05] share a few Charlie Kirk memes for fun?

[25:08] >> I share them all the time. I think I

[25:09] think they're super funny. I think

[25:10] everything making fun of Charlie Kirk is

[25:12] super funny. All that said, there is no

[25:14] way to safely engage with any right-wing

[25:16] content on the internet right now

[25:18] without without triggering that

[25:20] algorithmic effect. And that is just

[25:22] something you have to sort of take into

[25:24] account. If you're doing it on blue sky,

[25:25] you're probably fine. If you do it on X,

[25:28] you are absolutely probably going to

[25:30] trigger some kind of algorithmic cascade

[25:31] of neo-Nazi content for another user.

[25:33] Same with Tik Tok. Same with reals. Up

[25:36] to you like whether you care about that.

[25:38] But like, so I was just having this

[25:39] conversation with June who hosts the

[25:41] podcast Kill the Computer about like

[25:43] irony cannot defeat irony. And

[25:45] [clears throat] like it is so easy and

[25:48] it feels so good to like ironically

[25:51] share MAGA boomer slop and like talk

[25:54] like Trump and do all that stuff, but

[25:56] you are helping them. That is just a

[25:58] fact. And and unfortunately like being

[26:00] genuine and earnest seems like the best

[26:02] course of action, but like god that

[26:03] sucks and feels uncomfortable, but you

[26:05] know, whatever. I think the average

[26:06] person is probably fine. Yeah, go for

[26:08] it.

[26:08] >> Ryan, thank you so much for joining me

[26:10] today. And tell people where they can

[26:11] follow your work.

[26:12] >> You can follow me at garbage day.

[26:14] garbage day. It's a newsletter I write.

[26:17] And we also have a podcast, Panic World.

[26:19] You can find that anywhere you listen to

[26:21] podcasts. And you can also yell at me

[26:23] about the opinions I expressed here in

[26:25] this episode at Ryan Hates to sell on

[26:27] Blue Sky or Broadick on X.

[26:30] >> Thanks so much for joining.

[26:31] >> Thank you.

[26:31] >> All right, that's it for the show. Don't

[26:33] forget to subscribe to my Patreon via

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[27:16] [music]