How God is Using Charlie Kirk's Murder to Spark Revival

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[00:42] Pastor Greg Lori is in the house. Um

[00:45] pastor, you are uh one of the most I'm

[00:48] going to say it, you're going to you

[00:50] don't have to say it, but you're one of

[00:51] the most famous evangelists in the

[00:53] country. You do harvest crusades in

[00:55] Angel Stadium all over the country as

[00:57] well. Thousands and thousands of people

[01:00] come to faith in Jesus Christ. Um, you

[01:03] know, you knew Charlie. You you you came

[01:05] to our events. You you've been

[01:07] supportive. You you do things the right

[01:09] way. You have a long history and a

[01:11] really thriving church in Southern

[01:12] California, multiple campuses. I've

[01:15] known you for years. Um, I I just want

[01:18] you to help make sense of this moment.

[01:21] You know, a lot of people talking about

[01:22] revival. We've [clears throat] seen

[01:24] revival. We've also seen opposition.

[01:26] >> Uh the floor is yours. I I I mean, help

[01:29] us put eyes to this.

[01:32] >> Well, I'm reminded of that first line of

[01:34] a tale of two cities. That was a best of

[01:36] times. That was a worst of times. You

[01:38] know,

[01:39] >> both things can happen simultaneously.

[01:42] And these are dark times, but they're

[01:45] very bright times. And and there are

[01:48] signs of revival. And I I don't say that

[01:50] lightly because I was around for the

[01:52] last great spiritual awakening, the

[01:54] Jesus movement. You know, I didn't

[01:55] realize it at the time, Andrew, but I I

[01:58] I had a front row seat to an actual

[02:00] spiritual awakening, the last great

[02:02] awakening. And of all places in

[02:05] California.

[02:06] And so, you know, looking back in

[02:08] retrospect, and we made a movie about it

[02:10] called Jesus Revolution, or actually

[02:12] John Irwin, the director, had the vision

[02:14] to make this film. But uh and so people

[02:17] say, "Do you think we're having another

[02:18] Jesus revolution?" I said, "Well, I I

[02:20] see promising signs." But now looking at

[02:23] the last just few months, I would say I

[02:25] see more than promising signs. I see

[02:27] things happening that have not happened

[02:29] for a long time and things that have

[02:32] never happened at all. Take baptisms for

[02:34] instance. Uh you know, back in the Haiti

[02:36] of the Jesus movement, we would go to a

[02:38] little spot called Pirates Go and

[02:40] baptize a lot of people. But in the last

[02:42] just few years, we've seen over 20,000

[02:46] people baptized at that same spot. The

[02:49] movie had a little cause and effect. It

[02:50] was sort of like a case of, you know,

[02:52] they say a movie or whatever, art

[02:54] imitates life. In this case, life is

[02:56] imitating art imitating life. People

[02:58] said, "Oh, I I want to be baptized in

[03:00] that spot." But this is a phenomena. And

[03:03] of course, since Charlie was killed, and

[03:06] we I hate to say that, but you know, we

[03:08] have to say this, and I think it's more

[03:10] than just saying he died. He was

[03:12] murdered, and we all know that, but uh

[03:15] and I'm, you know, I'm humbled and

[03:17] honored to be in the studio where he

[03:18] would sit in the seat right next to me

[03:20] and and do what he did so well. But, uh

[03:24] but it's like rocket fuel has been

[03:26] poured on a pre-existing fire, and I see

[03:29] it intensifying. In fact, Wall Street

[03:31] Journal, you probably saw this article,

[03:33] even commented on the upsurge of Bible

[03:36] sales, and they directly attribute this

[03:38] to to Charlie's death. And so, you know,

[03:41] uh, Andrew, you may remember that our

[03:43] son Christopher died in an automobile

[03:46] accident 16 years ago. And so, I think

[03:49] when something tragic happens to

[03:51] Christians like that, we we try to like,

[03:54] why why did God let this happen? And and

[03:57] sometimes some Christians well-meaning

[03:59] but I think misdirected will try to find

[04:01] cause and effect like this happened so

[04:03] this other thing will happen. I think we

[04:05] need to separate them then look at them

[04:07] together. Charlie being killed was a

[04:10] horrible tragedy

[04:12] the end. But despite a horrible tragedy

[04:16] God is doing a mighty work and we could

[04:18] look at Steven which is a direct

[04:20] parallel. The death of Stephen was a

[04:22] tragedy and to the point we even read

[04:24] that godly men mourned over him, you

[04:27] know. So it was it was a tragedy for the

[04:30] church. Yet the gospel went out with

[04:33] greater power after the death of Stephen

[04:35] because the church finally got the memo.

[04:37] Oh yeah, we're not supposed to hang

[04:39] around in Jerusalem in a holy huddle.

[04:42] We're supposed to spread across the

[04:44] world and preach the gospel. And that's

[04:45] what happened after Steven's death. So,

[04:48] we can see a horrible tragedy that God

[04:51] is using not long before Charlie was

[04:54] killed. He was asked, "What is your

[04:56] favorite Bible passage?" And you

[04:58] remember it's Romans 8:28. God can al

[05:00] can cause all things to work together

[05:02] for good to those that love God. And as

[05:04] Joseph said to his brothers who betrayed

[05:06] him, you meant it for evil, but God

[05:09] meant it for good. So, we see God

[05:11] working despite the tragedy. And I like

[05:13] to make that distinction. despite the

[05:15] tragedy and and doing and I'm thinking

[05:18] if I'm Charlie in heaven, I would

[05:20] rejoice knowing that this was happening

[05:23] after I was called home to glory, you

[05:26] know, and and so I I think that's

[05:28] probably the greatest tribute that that,

[05:31] you know, this is a man that lived a

[05:32] godly life, a life of integrity, a life

[05:35] of passion, a life of purpose. And and a

[05:38] lot of people who never even heard his

[05:40] name before are now going, "Who is this

[05:42] guy? And what did he actually believe?"

[05:44] And they're not believing the caricature

[05:46] of Charlie presented by people that hate

[05:48] him and hate what he stands for. But

[05:50] they're checking out his own videos and

[05:52] seeing he was actually very civil, very

[05:55] patient. People would insult him to his

[05:57] face and he would just listen and then

[05:59] he would patiently respond. And you

[06:02] know, so they're seeing what this guy

[06:04] really stood for. And so I think that we

[06:07] are seeing revival like things happen

[06:10] right now. And there's no question that

[06:13] Charlie's death has had an effect on

[06:15] this.

[06:17] >> That was beautifully said. I think you

[06:18] summed up so much of what what I'm

[06:21] seeing, what I'm noticing. But I'm

[06:23] curious, Lucas, like you are the tip of

[06:26] the spear when it comes to TPSA faith

[06:28] and building out, you know, the church

[06:31] network. And we've seen this tremendous

[06:33] growth. I think we went last last data

[06:35] point I saw and it's probably bigger

[06:37] than that now, but it was, you know, we

[06:38] had 4,000 churches in our network. Now

[06:40] we have over 8,000

[06:41] >> over 8,000. So tell us what you're

[06:43] seeing on that front.

[06:44] >> Yeah, I mean first off I will say as you

[06:46] know cuz I I am a pastor myself. I still

[06:48] have a church in Indiana and then also

[06:50] head up the faith department here. And

[06:52] that was something that Charlie and I,

[06:53] you know, as we were kind of designing

[06:55] my role felt like if I'm going to call

[06:57] in the nation's pastors, it's important

[06:58] to do so, you know, as a pastor. And my

[07:01] own church has doubled in size during

[07:03] this time period. And I've heard that

[07:04] same report from churches throughout our

[07:07] network. I mean, you know, in the last

[07:08] 60 days, countless text messages from

[07:10] pastors saying, "We're up 10%, we're up

[07:12] 15%, we're up 30%, we're up 40%." You

[07:14] know, some churches that doubled. And

[07:16] and it's been absolutely remarkable to

[07:18] see. And it's not, you can't you can't

[07:21] fabricate revival like this. No. You

[07:23] know, you can't throw out advertising

[07:24] dollars and get just change hearts for

[07:26] people to start buying Bibles and

[07:27] showing up to church and everything

[07:28] else. And it was there was, you know,

[07:30] the the the catalyst was the martyrdom

[07:33] of Charlie Kirk. And when Charlie um

[07:36] when Charlie lost his life and the the

[07:41] instantaneous reaction, obviously grief,

[07:45] obviously horror, obvious obvious, you

[07:47] know, pain, but the immediate aftermath

[07:50] was, I need Jesus, and people just

[07:53] started showing up to church. I mean, we

[07:54] had a guy who had never been to church

[07:55] in his entire life show up. Yeah.

[07:57] >> And you know, I think the thing that

[08:00] that this also does, and we had talked

[08:01] about this a little bit, is it drew a

[08:03] line in the sand for pastors.

[08:05] >> If your pastor was silent during COVID,

[08:08] silent during all the trans stuff in the

[08:11] schools, now silent during the martyrdom

[08:13] of Charlie Kirk, you know, you talked

[08:15] about that that those righteous man men,

[08:17] you know, grieved Steven's death. Yeah.

[08:19] And we had a lot of clergy that did not

[08:22] even talk about this. and just as a

[08:24] pastor, you know, how horrified I was to

[08:26] see, you know, um other other quote

[08:29] unquote men of the cloth not know how to

[08:31] navigate that moment and to miss the

[08:33] opportunity for revival in this nation.

[08:35] >> Well, and and this is why I'm so glad to

[08:36] have you on, Greg, because you know, I

[08:38] was talking with a pastor recently who

[08:40] said that he thought that there I don't

[08:42] know, I can't remember if he said there

[08:43] was judgment on Big E, big

[08:45] evangelicalism, or that the revival was

[08:48] going to bypass the pulpit this time.

[08:49] and you're one of those those pastors

[08:51] that I would not include in in that uh

[08:54] prescription. I think you have been

[08:56] faithful. You have proclaimed the

[08:58] gospel. You have been steady and

[09:00] consistent. Uh and and so I guess my

[09:02] question out of that thought is what

[09:06] does the church need to do

[09:09] >> to capture this this moment, this

[09:10] energy? Because I do think there is a

[09:13] potential where you know people were

[09:14] going to Charlie on social media. they

[09:16] they weren't necessarily I mean even in

[09:18] his in life we saw that church

[09:20] attendance was starting to click up that

[09:22] Bible sales were were clicking up after

[09:24] years and years of decline we we saw

[09:26] that balance out so what is the what is

[09:28] your call to pastors that find

[09:30] themselves in a position to to harness

[09:31] this energy

[09:32] >> well the problem is sometimes pastors

[09:34] are answering questions people are not

[09:36] asking and they're not answering the

[09:38] questions that are being asked this is a

[09:40] moment in time and we need to seize the

[09:42] moment and like you said Lucas uh so

[09:46] many people coming to church and

[09:47] specifically young people and that this

[09:49] is what I see as a parallel between this

[09:51] moment and the Jesus movement. The Jesus

[09:54] movement was a youth revival and I see

[09:57] young people coming back. Of course, we

[09:59] are already seeing this trend. Charlie

[10:00] even talked about it. Gen Z kids coming

[10:03] back to church and specifically Gen Z

[10:05] boys. Yeah. And that I've never heard of

[10:08] that before because usually, let's be

[10:10] honest, women lead the way in spiritual

[10:12] things. But for to see young men uh

[10:15] starting to come and I think of voices

[10:17] like Charlie's and others uh that have,

[10:20] you know, Jordan Peterson, other voices

[10:23] encourage men, encourage men to embrace

[10:25] their masculinity, biblical masculinity,

[10:27] but but I think even more to be men of

[10:29] God. And so I think this is a moment in

[10:32] time I don't think we can be neutral.

[10:35] There's the the culture has encroached

[10:38] on the church now. Now they're coming

[10:40] into our world and and we saw it with CO

[10:43] and the shutdowns. We certainly saw it

[10:45] in California. Uh some churches shutting

[10:48] down, staying closed for months on end

[10:51] and what a mistake that was. And then

[10:54] but also, you know, pushing trans issues

[10:57] and and and and we need to speak out for

[11:00] these things. I don't think we can say

[11:02] anymore to our congregants, we'll just

[11:03] vote your conscience. No, they need to

[11:06] vote biblically. And as pastors, we have

[11:08] a responsibility to educate them

[11:10] biblically. What does the Bible say

[11:12] about these things and offer theology

[11:15] without apology? So, uh, you know, even

[11:19] in the Democratic party, they're

[11:21] decrying the extremism in it. And that

[11:24] that is what seems to be influencing the

[11:26] party more and more right now, as we've

[11:28] seen in uh the election in New York for

[11:31] mayor and other areas. And so, okay,

[11:34] fine. But we need to be overt and

[11:37] outfront and direct a in in what we

[11:41] believe. And and if our founding fathers

[11:43] had cowed, we wouldn't have an America

[11:46] to celebrate this freedom uh in today

[11:48] like we have right now. So, this this is

[11:50] a moment you got to stand up, be

[11:52] counted. I want to encourage my fellow

[11:53] pastors to do that. And but here's the

[11:56] most important thing. Preach the gospel.

[11:58] You know, I was I interviewed Frank Turk

[12:01] the other day for my podcast and he said

[12:03] Charlie said to him, "You know what we

[12:05] do politically is it's it's small

[12:07] potatoes compared to the gospel." And

[12:09] one of the last things Charlie talked

[12:11] about before he was killed was Jesus.

[12:14] And he talked about that openly because

[12:16] that's why I didn't think it was fair to

[12:18] describe him a political activist. I

[12:20] mean, in a way he was that, of course,

[12:22] but I saw him as a Christian leader that

[12:25] influenced everything that he did,

[12:26] including politics, as it should. But,

[12:29] uh, I think that we need to preach the

[12:32] gospel boldly and call people to Christ.

[12:35] I'm going to go to UVU uh on November

[12:38] 16th and we're going to preach the

[12:39] gospel on that campus and call him to