[music] [music] [music] Hey friends, what's up? Welcome back to the podcast. Great to be with you. On this episode, I talked to Caroline Stout. She is a defector from TurningPoint USA. Oh yeah, I got an ex Turning Point USA employee on the show. Really fascinating conversation. Um, really helpful to understand the evolution of the organization. Of course, we talk about faith and her journey kind of out of the evangelical fundamentalism world and the political right into just a different way of thinking. So, I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. I would love your feedback. I read all the Facebook um I read all of the YouTube comments. I should not say Facebook because we're on YouTube. And also I do look for responses on our email from you, the podcast listener. So if you're enjoying this stuff, let me know. I I I really like hearing from the audience. It makes me feel not so alone broadcasting from a studio by myself. Hey, that being said, thanks so much for being here. If you want to support the work that we do, donating is the best way to do that. Uh we are a nonprofit organization making all of our content and resources completely paywall free. You can become a supporter www.theneweangelicals.com/support. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to give this video a like and subscribe to our channel. We are now putting all of our podcast episodes right here on the tin podcast channel. It's a new channel for us, so giving it a subscribe would be so helpful. If you're listening on podcast, make sure to give this episode a rating and make sure to follow the show. Talk to you later, friends. All right, sweet. Well, this will be I mean, I say this every single episode. It will be a great conversation, but definitely one of the more unique ones because um Caroline, it's great to have you on the podcast first and foremost, but you actually used to work for Turning Point USA, which makes you wonder how you grew up. So, we're going to dive into all of that. So, thank you so much for joining me on the show. It means the world. >> Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here. So excited to dig into it um and tell you stories from the other side. >> [laughter] >> Well, I mean, did you grow up conservative evangelical like me and most of the audience? I'm kind of curious. >> Yeah. So, I grew up in the suburbs of Houston. I grew up going to a mega church, like Baptist mega church in Houston. I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Ed Young. >> Oh. Oh, yes. We have critiqued him and his son Ed Young Jr. many a times on the show. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. So that's the church that I grew up with and I literally had no idea that that culture and that community was like anything but normal. Genuinely thought that having like swimming pools and like a raetball court and like an entire like film studio is like a normal church. So then I would go to a normalsized church and I would be like, "Oh my gosh, this is so like such a small small church. Y'all don't go to beach resorts for your summer camp." like what? And so that's what I thought was totally normal. Like I thought it was a normal thing to have a Fourth of July church service and do the like flags and everything. So that's the community community community that I grew up in where like annual trips to Israel like crazy glitzy stuff having Ted Cruz or I don't know if Ted Cruz has but uh >> all sorts of folks Trey Gouty uh Ben Carson Trey sec or secular like speak at the church. So, it was a really it made sense when I like looking back that I got involved in Turning Point USA because the pipeline is so strong. >> Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you grew up in the in the Righteous Gemstones uh universe, you know what I mean? Like this like mega church [laughter] of just glam and glitz and over-the-top everything in Houston. >> Yes. when I when like watching Righteous Gemstones was like both healing but also like traumatic for me because I [laughter] like relived things that I like I said I thought were normal but also was able to like process in real time. Oh, like this is this is worth making fun of. >> Yeah. No, that's fair. I mean, I so I grew up in a very small like non-denominational Baptist church in New Jersey, but we definitely did, you know, all the flag stuff. We did the big Fourth of July celebration. You know, I'm not sure. How old are you? Let me ask you this first. >> I turned 20 turned 29 last week. So, we're >> happy birthday to you. Um, >> thank you. We're nearing the end of the time in our 20s. >> Well, I Yeah, I I am a little bit ahead of you. I'm 37. Uh, and so, um, I will say my 30s have been some of the best years of my life. And I'll tell you why. Here's my unsolicited advice for everyone out there turning 30 soon. 30s is when you have just a drop of wisdom, but you're still very young. So, you actually like feel more confident about yourself. You kind of have a better head on your shoulders, and also you still have the freedom and energy to do things that like younger people would do. So, I've been really enjoying my 30s. I'm not going to lie. Um, little antidote there. That was a >> freebie. Well, thanks. Yeah, that's what that's what I hear. So, we're not we're not scared of 30 here. >> No. Good. I'm glad to hear it. Okay. So, I I grew up in in that world. Now, I will say growing up, the turning points of the world weren't really a thing, you know, because again, I was kind of a little bit ahead of you in that regard, but there was definitely a sense that good Christians vote conservative. I grew up on Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, that kind of like first generation of talk radio, right? Um, I I encountered Charlie Kirk and Turning Point USA probably a while ago while while I was still deeply embedded in evangelical spaces, but at the time Turning Point USA was more of like a libertarian think tank and kind of like a free market uh, you know, vibe that was almost like I mean they would probably call it now like a neocon kind of attitude, a Mitt Romney, George Bush kind of flavor. >> Yes. I'm kind of curious for you what your experience was working with them and what years you were working, you know, with the organization. >> Yeah. No, you hit the nail on the head because a lot of people look at Turning Point and are familiar with Turning Point as it is now, but it is completely different than it was back 10 years ago, like let's say back in 2014 when I first got involved, Charlie Kirk would literally say, "We only focus on limited government and fiscal responsibility. that's it. He said that we don't focus on social issues because that's what divides us and that's why the left wins. Literally, that was the tactic at the time. >> Now, we know looking back that's not true. And that that same problem is being thrust upon people on the left. So it it was the creation of a culture war from day one um with regards to the social issues specifically by not talking about the social issues. So it was a creating a big tent from the get-go where you had people that were like worked with Jeb Bush, worked on like Rick Santorum's campaign, Ben Carson and so on. But after like after 20 2018 and a 2017 2018 is when it really really started to take off in in a different direction. >> How did you first get involved with the organization? What was that pipeline going from Ed Young's church to working for Turning Point and what was your role there? I grew up in Harris County in Houston, which is a like big super powerful uh political county. And so I got involved in politics and conservative politics before I got involved with Turning Point. >> So it wasn't Turning Point that was the pipeline into politics for me. It was the other way around. I was already interested in that. I was a nerdy teenager that really didn't have a place anywhere. [laughter] And so I thought like, well, if I can if I can debate and argue with people, they'll think I'm smart, right? So I decided I'm going to get involved in politics. That became my like hyperfixation and got involved with my local Republican party. And when they have a young person who is showing up at an event full of old white people, they like want to platform you and want to introduce you and make connections. And so it was in 20 end towards the end of 2014 when I first met Charlie Kirk. It was at a kind of get together for young conservatives and young Republicans in Houston and there were like probably 10, 11, 12 of us there. And Charlie kind of gave his like pitch for Turning Point because the organization at that point was only two years old, right? >> They had like just broke like a million dollars in fundraising. Um so obviously they're going to go down to Houston, talk to the Republicans down there. Um and try to try to get people on board to I guess sponsor young people to go with them to CPAC. And I'm sure most of your people know what CPAC is. the conservative political action conference. It's we it was pitched to me as like Republican Super Bowl or Republican Christmas where everyone comes together and basically it's just a big party for yourselves where you argue amongst yourselves but at the end of the day like all the donors there get to be front facing with all of the all the money. And so TurningPoint became a sponsor or an exhibitor at at CPAC and that was the first event that I ever went to with Turning Point as like an official student activist and went um and as a teenager who like I said felt like I did not have a place anywhere. I wasn't one of the like chosen ones in my youth group. Y >> I wasn't one of the like popular people like I was I awkward eldest daughter and so being in a space where you are you are bumping into people that you see on television like I rode in like on an escalator with John Bolton and like was able to like shake hands with uh Rayan Paul and see people that are important. And so as someone who really needed that validation, I was all in. And I think that that is a huge huge factor into why there's been a lot of uh a lot of targeting of even like high school high school age for even from that point because you're vulnerable and you're like I was willing to take on their talking points and really put them on like a shirt in exchange for that acceptance and belonging in the group. >> Yeah, that's that's really helpful. So when what was your first like official job like how did you end up end up on staff with them and what was your role? >> I so that was my senior year of high school when I went to CPAC. Then freshman year of college I founded the Turning Point chapter at Texas A&M University and then the following spring went on staff as a field staffer. So, I was one of the pluckucky little field staffers with a clipboard at a table on the campus square getting people to sign up, taking straws, passing out literature, what we called, we called it voter education materials, also known as propaganda and passing that around and having conversations with people. Understandably, Texas&M University, most people that go there are either conservative Christian in the Christian bubble or they don't give a darn about like politics and stuff. So, it wasn't a super challenging environment to sign people up. After that, I interned with their media that summer and then the following fall, I went on full-time um doing media. >> Okay. By the way, you can say whatever you want on this show. So you can say damn, but if you don't want to, darn is fine. Just let you know. >> I know. I as soon as I said like I I was about to go like down and I was just like, "Oh man, like I didn't ask." So I'm like, [laughter] "I don't want to do it." >> This is the new Evangelicals podcast. Okay. We can we can drop some some spicy language here and there. Um Okay. So at this point, this is what, like 2014, 2015ish. >> Yes. Yeah. This is 2015 going into 2016. 2016 is when I interned with them doing media. >> Okay. So, I'm I'm really curious from your vantage point. I'm assuming that you were around Charlie Kirk and some of like maybe the foundational staff members who were on the executive level, so to speak. What What was the overall vibe? And look, I I want to be really charitable. Obviously, we've already covered Charlie's assassination on the podcast. We've already spoke out against that. So, this is all under under that that umbrella. But you said something earlier that I want to pick up on and kind of get your thoughts because you were actually there. I think that two things can be true at the same time. Do I think that someone um you know can kind of like have a false pretense of how they get people into an organization with like an ulterior motive? Sure. But also, can people evolve and change over time? Absolutely. I mean, I'm I'm I'm an example of this, right? as someone who runs a small nonprofit, the stuff I said even five years ago, I'm like, I probably wouldn't believe that anymore. So, working with Charlie really precoid, because I think postcoid with with Rob McCoy is when things get really extreme. Do you think that that Charlie and TPUSA were just kind of an evolution of kind of how they ended up in like the far right MAGA think tank, or do you think that was kind of always the plan? Meaning, do you think Charlie was I mean, he was young when he started it. Do you think he was someone who was just kind of unpacking his thoughts in real time and the org reflected that or do you think that there was really a a darker motive from the beginning to kind of push the party in the direction that it kind of is now when it comes to MAGA and the level of propaganda that we're seeing? >> That's such a good question and it's one that I really have wrestled with as I've deconstructed from being in that world and really wrestling with the role that I played. And I do want to be clear that I was not by any means the in the like inner circle room where big decisions are made. I don't want to overinflate my like significance within the organization. Uh because I wasn't I wasn't one of those people at all cuz you know I didn't come from a donor family. And so if we're thinking back to that time period, I don't know. I don't think that there was any long-term nefarious tapping into the alt-right uh Christian nationalism and the way that it really is involved with it now. Um, if I and I think that if there were any sort of long-term motives of tapping into that, I don't know that it would have been on Charlie's part, I think that it would have been on the big like original backing donors that would have had that had that for uh foresight into what what it could become. That being said, like the playbook that Turning Point followed came from the leadership institute and the heritage foundation and those those are big players in that world. So I don't know if it if it >> like really can be considered separate from that. Um, I like to think that the the more secular world view of Turning Point back when I was involved was in good faith. Uh, but but I I don't know. >> That's that's fair. I mean, it's a question I've asked myself. One of my dream scenarios was trying to get time with Charlie off camera just so I can kind of hear his story without having to worry about him feeling feeling like I'm going to use his footage to clickbait him or something and vice versa. Obviously, that can't happen now, but I did meet Charlie a few times, briefly. I mean, I don't want to overinflate my connection either. We shook hands a few times, talked here and there, and I went to America Fest for three years in a row. In fact, this is the first year where I'm not planning on going out of respect for everything that happened this year. Um, but yeah, I mean, I I picked up I mean, I knew about Turning Point. I think just like through the grapevine for a long time. And I remember Charlie being very libertarian almost minded with like how he talked about things like you said, limited government, free market principles, you know, kind of like the big the big ingredients here. Um and oh, fiscal responsibility is what you mentioned as well. >> Yep. >> Yeah. And and um I did not hear a lot about, you know, um trying to activate the church, right? The story I understand and I've also talked to this person is that Rob McCoy was kind of like Charlie's pastor and that was the beginning of Charlie kind of thinking about how to use Turning Point in a different way especially with the with the pandemic happening. I think that was a really for society a culture shifting moment. And I do wonder because I get asked this all the time. I wonder was this like an intentional kind of grift decision or was it genuinely like no I feel like the church is under attack. We have to do something because our biblical principles you know are under threat because we're told to wear a mask and get vaccinated during a global pandemic. I mean that's an an honest thing that I wrestle with consistently. >> Right. And it and honestly like I've I've had that exact same thought especially once once the more dangerous rhetoric made its way into the discourse within Turning Point within the right that was really fueled by overt white supremacy and Christian nationalism. >> Yeah. >> I don't think it matters whether the sincerity is there or not because the acts were done either way. M >> like I think either like on in one on one hand either he sincerely he and the organization the decision makers sincerely believe the church is under attack. This is our holy mission to fight on behalf of the Christian conservative silent majority or he didn't believe that but he saw that as something he could tap into which obvious I I I was about to say obviously that's worse. I don't know which is worse. both are bad and in and either way the actions were done, the damage has been done and uh understanding the motives behind it. Uh I don't know like I I don't really I don't care anymore. I just look at the damage that's been done and I lament it. >> Yeah. No, same. I mean, absolutely same. I I remember going to the uh one of their first pastor summits. This was when Biden was still in office. Uh maybe what was it? um I don't know uh like uh 20 20 you know maybe 2023 something like that and um 2022 and Rob McCoy is on the stage really saying that he believes that at any moment the Biden administration is going to throw him and Christians like him in prison and I remember thinking to myself, you know, I've been hearing this rhetoric for a long time in the churches I grew up in. I have grown up hearing this >> and it's never been even close to a real threat >> ever and it was really shocking to hear that. I'm curious for you, what was or why did you end up leaving Turning Point? Were you kind of having your own like, hey, I'm not sure if this is where I want to be or was it just like, hey, it wasn't good working vibes, so I left. Like what was what was the reason you started exiting out of turning point? Yeah, it's so hard to say like what was the turning point like or [laughter] hard not to say what was the turning point. Um well, so I I was involved in TurningPoint in the media space um in their kind of fledgling media presence because at the time it was really like they had their like Facebook page, a Twitter, uh Charlie had his Twitter and so it wasn't the media empire that it is today. Yeah. Um, but but I was involved that summer with writing articles and making videos and making those 2016 memes. Like I was literally in the Turning Point office when I found out that Harambe had died. So like it was just the center like center of that meme culture taking over politics. And that was a lot of a lot of what I did. Um helping with that, helping that's a generous word. Um and also attending the events of course and realizing as I was writing articles that there is a clear bias here and there's a clear agenda with what I what what I am content I am putting out. It was content that as I wrote it, I believed in what I was saying, but I knew that I was ratcheting up the intensity beyond what was necessary. M >> and once I realized that that was something that we as a as an outlet or a media source did, it was like the scales fell from my eyes and I could see that Fox News was propagandizing and I was seeing that Breitbart and at the time campus reform and all of the little all of the >> players in that conservative media space were really feeding fear. and anger. And I thought that like I started I just realized that if if I'm doing that, they're doing that too. What's true anymore? Do I actually believe in the stuff that I'm pedalling? And I realized then, so I was 20 years old, um, 19, 20, and I realized that I got involved in politics not even thinking about what policies do I believed in believe in. I just wanted like a sense of belonging. I just wanted community. And I was a I was willing to accept whatever politics, whatever issues were of importance at the time. and what would get me a ticket a ticket to the table. Um, and I started to ask questions. And so after having that realization, the biggest moment for me, and I vividly remember this moment, I was back in College Station back in my like my sophomore year of college, driving down the street, and I thought to myself, >> what if Democrats aren't evil? Mhm. >> Which is such a crazy question because it's so insane. But I gave myself permission to be like, >> "Hold on, maybe they're not evil. Maybe they're just trying to do the next best thing like every other freaking human being on the planet." And they're not trying to destroy America and lock up Christians. And so having that thought opened the floodgates at that point. So, the media had been discredited to me in a good way. And then I had that realization. And then this was like probably a year, a year and a half, two years later when I first gave myself permission to think I could vote Democrat and not go to hell. >> Like it took so long to get to that point. >> Um. >> Right. But but yeah, once I accepted that that I I had been fed propaganda and fed lies, I I started to started to do do the hard work and the unpacking. >> No, that's really wonderful. I mean, I I resonate so strongly with all three of those ingredients that you gave um that kind of led you out of like just those like really hardcore conservative spaces. It was also so I'll I'll share part of my journey briefly. I I I remember um vividly for me one of my moments where I was like was I was uh on a construction site with my dad painting a wall and Rush Limbaugh was on the radio lambasting Obama again. This is you know this is like maybe >> yeah the middle of like his second term and I thought to myself, you know, Rush has never given Obama credit for anything. Yet we're still here as a country. Like it can't be as bad as Russia is saying because we're all still here doing the things that we're doing. And I've been hearing this guy since Obama's first term warn us of the impending destruction of America. I mean, I remember when Glenn Beck cried on the radio saying, "America's days are numbered maybe three or four years max, for there's just no America anymore." And that was my first kind of like, huh, well, I can't he he can't be this moral monstrosity considering that we're all still here. These people can't be just evil and and hell on destruction. And then I started thinking, I wonder how those people see the world. I mean, I again, I was homeschooled at private school. I had no outside source. There was no liberal indoctrination of of Tim Whitaker that led me here. It was just a real thought of like, well, obviously these Democrats have to see the world a certain way. I'm just kind of curious what their perspective might be. And that was a big crack in the dam. The other one, I'm kind of curious to hear hear if this is if this is true for you, was I was really constantly reinforced the notion of truth. Truth matters. Stand on truth. Biblical truth. Truth. Truth. Truth. Truth. Truth. And when I started realizing that maybe the conservative talk radio world isn't telling the truth or at least the full truth, that made me really start questioning like, well, what else have I been told that might not be true in the sense of it being objective or, you know, just standing on some kind of firm foundation? Those were some of the ingredients for me that again, I I I I was I didn't go from like, you know, Rush Limbaugh to like um far-left ideology. That wasn't the journey. It was just like, huh, I don't know if this is it. long term. >> Exactly. Exactly. That I resonate with that for sure. I remember that even back when I was involved in Turning Point, the idea that we are a Christian nation and we need to have like our policies need to uphold Christian values never never made sense to me because I recognized that we live in a pluralist society. we have a secular government theoretically for now. And we [laughter] uh like I was like so for for conservative policies I would have conversations with people and I was like I need you to give me a reason that is not based in the Bible that is not based in Christianity that I should believe that >> two women can't get married or two men can't get married. I need you to give me some kind of secular reason that we need Israel and need to support every single thing that they do. >> Like you need to give me non scripture whatever which oh my gosh if like Christians like conservative Christians that hear that their eyeballs will fall out of their head because that is so antithetical to what the Christian right believes now. Everything is based in scripture. You have like Pete Hexath saying God bless America as the Secretary of Defense. I'm not saying Secretary of War form. We're not doing that. And like it's it's just so so normal now to say like we need a Christian Christian to like back up these policy Christian ideology. That never sat well with me as someone who was like I went to public school. I didn't go to a parochial school. I didn't go to a Christian school. And I was fortunate to have incredible teachers that were incredibly objective and did not indoctrinate in in right or left. They gave really really good like social studies uh social studies background for me. So I I had that that understanding and that that really helped helped me on that journey because I even when I was within that world could see the holes. >> Yeah, I agree. Um is it how did this impact your faith? I mean obviously we can spend a lot of time on the Christian nationalist stuff and how you know the term biblical is doing so much heavy lifting. So we we we we don't have to, you know, readress all that because we do on the show all the time, but I'm curious from a personal perspective, like how did this impact your faith journey? I'm assuming you got into politics because it was tied to your Christian identity. You know, now you're in this world, you're realizing, I don't know, we're pushing a lot of fear and anger and I would argue unjustified fear, right? I mean, there's obvious there's there's real reasons to be afraid of things. I mean, what ICS is doing is is a reason to be afraid of what's happening in America, right? Because it's grounded in reality. I've noticed that a lot of the right-wing talking points often were either cherrypicked examples then kind of pasted onto the whole of society or just flatout false um like Obama's the antichrist things like that. So as you're going through your journey how was your faith being impacted? >> Well in my community of origin your faith and your political identity were inseparable like it was not there was no there was no one without the other. >> Mh. And so once I started to question my political ideology, there was absolutely no way I could ignore questioning my faith, questioning my religious upbringing and uh somewhat indoctrination. And so I also like when I started to go down this political journey, I like went full full on like abandoned faith. I was I was like no like Christianity is just a establishment to control. Like it's an institution to control the masses. Like I literally Googled books about atheism and bought a bunch of those because I was like I need something like I felt so unmed and so just untethered from from from reality because my entire reality had had to shift once I changed my political ideology. And so I I did a lot of work on what faith meant to me. Um and ended up finding my faith again in a very very organic very organic way because I h it it had really soured on me having even gone gone back to a church. So I still had attended church. I'm like back in my home hometown. It's Houston back at Second Baptist Church. It's not like it's a small town um back there. And this was in 2020. So this is when like George Floyd is happening like protest. This is when like we're dealing with the pandemic. And I I was just like I am abandoning hope. I enrolled in an MD program because I was like I need serious academic help to figure out what I believe about the world. Believe it or not, working on an Mdive did not help me with my spiritual growth. >> How darn it? >> Um I know. I know. Very I was very very sad about that. Um but I ended up uh going into like substance abuse treatment >> and in there I had found out that insurance was kicking me out basically um before I was done with my like program. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. You were in treatment for substance abuse, >> and your insurance was going to kick you out of the program and stop covering it in the middle of treatment? >> In the middle of treatment. I'd only been there like a couple I think it was probably like a week and a half. And I was doing well because I was in treatment. >> Mhm. >> And so I was like giving my little daily updates. I'm like, I'm feeling good. Like I don't feel like drinking today. M >> and so insurance sees that and they're like, "Oh, then we don't need to pay for your treatment >> if you're feeling good." Without realizing, "Oh, maybe I'm doing well because I'm in treatment, [laughter] >> right?" >> And so I talked to my doctor and I was like, "Can you appeal this because I'm I'm if if I leave today, we I'll be back here tomorrow and needing to detox. Like, we're not we're not going to it's it's we're not there yet." and he said, "We can try, but I've never seen an appeal go through." And so I was in my my room and I prayed for the first time actually believing that someone was listening to me. >> I'd never I'd always prayed because I was supposed to and I thought that the praying would entice God to maybe interact with me. >> Yeah. But I actually prayed and could feel someone on the other end. >> And that that's when I believed that I really was saved. And so from there it was figuring out what spirituality and what faith and what uh religion actually looks like for me independent from my independent from my political ideology. Keeping that as a very personal personal thing. Um, and it still it still is really hard. Like I found an incredible church here in the panhandle of Texas where our pastor has written a book condemning Christian nationalism. He's he's phenomenal. So the church is very my church is very involved with helping refugees, but it's also a very reformed church that will not talk about the social issues and like the political issues that I think are so so important that I wish that they would address. So I'll sit there in the pews and know that there are maggas sitting on the same pew with me >> and hearing the same message and still coming to a different conclusion. And that's that's so hard and and that's it. There's no there's no easy solution to it. You know, that's that's kind of the the situation we're in. I told uh someone at church like you know why we haven't been going. And I'm like, it's a personal problem. It is It is me being angry at my brothers and sisters in Christ for being completely deluded by an insane administration. >> I mean, that's why I rant every day. [laughter] I mean, I I feel that the um man, for anyone who's been following, you know, some of my personal accounts, you know, my substack and stuff, you know, at Tim Whitaker Speaks, it has been um I find myself more and more flabbergasted like at how the people who raised me can look around and be like, "We're so back." I mean, and and I say this because this is data like, you know, I'm I'm tapped into some of the the the polling on this stuff. PRI just released new new polling data. 76% of white evangelicals approve of the job that the Trump administration is doing. 76 almost eight out of 10. And white Catholics and white Protestants are not that far behind. They're still in the majority approval. They're the only white Christians are the only religious demographic in the majority that approve of what Trump is doing. And I'm not sure about you, but even in my conservative evangelical Rush Limbaugh upbringing, I was taught that Hitler was bad and that if someone is praising Hitler in leaked chat uh text messages, you should condemn them. And the fact that our vice president can't even condemn that. I'm like, uh, guys, I'm I'm just saying the bar is so damn low that we're at a place where >> Hitler was great can't be openly condemned by JD Vance. Think about that for a second. >> That's Yeah. So insane. Growing up, before I even learned about World War II and learned about the Holocaust and who Hitler was, I knew in my bones that Hitler was the enemy. Like we like we we can I thought that something we can all agree on. >> I that is what is so I'm sure you feel this too. I mean you you just kind of expressed a sentiment of like you're in church with your brothers and sisters. you're you you have these shared beliefs, but the values are so different and I don't know what to do with that. I mean, I have my theories. I I have all my theories about indoctrination or propaganda and the billion dollar plus industry that is fueling your turning points in your daily wires for sure. Like, that's all a part of it. But I just don't know how you claim to be a follower of Jesus. You read the red letters about welcoming the stranger and taking care of the least of these and liberating the oppressed. you yada yada yada loving your enemy. And then you see a president at the funeral of someone that you admire say, "I hate my opponents." And you go, "That is the dude that God has anointed for such a time as this. This is Christianity on display. I don't know how you do that. I don't know how you see it that way. It is wild to me." I think that's what's so frustrating, right? is that it's not like you and I, it sounds like, did not have this moment where we're like, you know what, I'm a liberal now. I just want to be a liberal. Like, that wasn't it. It was like, guys, I'm taking what you taught me seriously. And it led me straight out the freaking door of the churches that I grew up in because I can't find Jesus there anymore. That's what's that's what's hard for me to like understand. >> Exactly. Like it it's it's just so so crazy. And like to your point about the indoctrination because I mean there I mean we could spend days talking about the indoctrination and the investment into the growth of Christian nationalism. Yeah. >> Um but >> thinking anecdotally back to when I was a teenager at church. I remember going up to someone in my family and saying, "I heard that so and so is a Democrat at church." Like they're a Democrat. Are they like how how could they possibly do that? Like do they have they ever do they have a relationship with Jesus? Are they saved? And >> now I'm on the other side of it. People in my family are questioning my salvation and think that I've gone off the deep end. Like >> and to your point about Trump like saying, "Oh, I like hate them. He's he's what? like he's a convicted felon, adjudicated rapist. He has like how many times divorced, how many times bankrupt, and somehow he is one over the moral majority, right? >> Really? >> Right. >> Like, are you serious? And I have people like, so a lot of people in my family will say like, "Oh, well, I'm not I'm not MAGA. I'm no MAGA. I'm like not a Trumpkin." Like, but it's the Democrats that have lost their mind. Right. >> And so I think that's a big a big part of it too. Just this demonization of the left to the point where they think like I could not even imagine having a conversation with people in my community of origin about Zoron Mdani let alone like a typical centrist Democrat, >> right? Like Nancy Pelosi or something, right? Like that's what's so interesting is that and this is a deeper conversation. It is interesting to see how >> I call it playing mind sweeper where when you're talking to someone who's a right-wing person, they've had all these little minds implanted in their brain that when certain words are said, they're just they go off and they just hear liberal, woke liberal, Marxist, you communist hates America. And it's like I I'm the you have to give it to right-wing media. They did a really good job of grabbing on to new media platforms before anyone else really did. They had billionaire investments that that really promoted this and they played the game of we're under attack by big tech as they actually dominated social media and YouTube the entire freaking time, right? So they were really they're really good at rage bait. They're really good at at at short propaganda clips that are out of context. They're really good at doing that, right? On top of your Fox News and your oans. So you have this like generation or generations of people that have been programmed to hear someone that when they say, you know, I think it's really good that we think about protecting the planet and that we do all we can to minimize the effects of climate change because it really can kill people. What they hear is, I'm a radical socialist who hates America and hates God and hates you and I want to put you in prison because I hate America and I'm a Satanist. Like that's what that's what they hear. They hear like this entire other narrative where you're like, "Wait, I'm not talking about any of those things." I'm simply saying as a Christian, if we've been given dominion over the earth because God wants us to rule on behalf of of them as their image bearsers, we should take care of the only planet that God has given us. >> But somehow they hear something so different. It's it's wild to me. >> It's completely completely just black and white thinking. And it it really really goes to show the value or the impact of talking points and the focus on talking points like what you said about just these buzzwords that it like it triggers something in their brain where they're all of a sudden like eyes closed like you're the enemy, right? >> You're the enemy. And I would do that. I would do that too when I worked for Turning Point and I would be on campus talking with someone. I remember this one example. We had these signs that would say capitalism cures poverty, which is laughable. Like that's so that's batshit. That's crazy. [laughter] >> Like like wow cures poverty. Like AWS was down today. Nothing's working. Meanwhile, Amazon lays off like 10% of its workforce. We're running out of water in the panhandle of Texas. I can't afford dog food. Right? >> What are we doing? Like this is what we >> Here we are. Here we are. >> And so I But this was 2015. My little capitalism cures poverty. Had it on a button. Yeah. >> And I'm on a college campus where there are experts in why this is not true. And so someone comes up to me and she's like, "Oh my gosh, like I love your sign." And she looks at she goes, "Oh wait, I thought it said capitalism causes poverty." And I just immediately it was like my eyeballs just turned red and I was like Terminator like you are the enemy now. So anything she said she's literally [laughter] >> right PhD expert and I'm like 18 years old. I don't know anything but I'm like she's indoctrinated and she's trying to trick me. [laughter] And I look back at that and it's just so stupid. >> [laughter] >> I I'm laughing so hard because that's me, too. I'm laughing at myself, not laughing at you because I've been that person time and time again where 19-year-old me thinks like that. They know their and they're talking to like an expert and you look back, you're like, "Wait, I was the sheep in that conversation. I was the indoctrinated one." Like, I I was the one taken for a ride >> and it wasn't the person who devoted their life to understanding the complexities and nuance of any given topic, right? It is. >> No, expertise is evil. >> Yeah, we know. Oh gosh. No, it is um there is something about being in that age range and like how your brain, you know, I kind of think about like your brain being like cement, right? When you're a kid, your parents are forming how this how your brain functions, how you see the world. When you're like 18, 19, you're starting to get it's it's starting to harden a little bit. So, you think that you know a lot of things because like it's kind of formed, but it's not really there yet. and it's still kind of >> you've arrived to adulthood, >> right? So, you can't see the people that are still influencing you, but you think it they're all your own ideas and that you're somehow on top of the world, right? And I've been there. Like, as a former evangelical conservative who had a podcast and a blog and did missions trips and like went to the the prolife marches holding up the signs, like I I have been that person. So, I'm not >> You were probably both there. >> I'm not punching down. I'm punching myself, you know, like >> No, I totally get that >> being that age and that's why like as I said earlier, turning point really focuses I mean obviously youth organization it's a powerful powerful model but on a more I don't even know if I want to say nefarious level but a strategic level when you are that age and you are being told that oh you like everyone else is being tricked but you can see through the it. You can see the lies that are being fed because you're smarter and you know the truth. You get to be on the inside of the circle and you're the one who like gets to evangelize the truth about capitalism and limited government and fiscal responsibility and why billionaires should be able to buy elections. Yeah. >> Like that >> that is so so enticing to feel like you're the one that's in the know. >> Yeah. >> And that's how you feel at a turning point conference. That's how you feel when you're a Turning Point student activist. You get to feel like you're the one that's going to save America because you're in on the secret. >> Yeah, 100%. So, where are you now? I mean, you're 29 years old. Um, you know, what's the update? How are you with your faith? How's your journey been? I I want to know. >> It's good. It's good. Like I said, it's been it's been hard. um wrestling with everything that I believed to be true. >> Yeah. >> You know, I mean, anyone who's listening is going to be like, "Yep, we know. We know. We know this." Um >> not alone. everything I believed about the world. How how does my faith and what I understood the Bible and Jesus and >> sanctification and what does it mean to be righteous in a secular world? Like how how does that work? It's so so ongoing as it should be. I think that's to the point of what sanctification is. It is ongoing. um continuing to learn what my role is in a very unjust world. Um I am an attorney, so I get to get to look at the world through through a lawyer's eyes and I get to understand issues um having had my brain warped by law school. And so that that helps me to contextualize a lot of what's going on. Um, and so, so yeah, it's it's definitely definitely not easy, especially when it comes to I mean, you know, Charlie had a point. The social issues, it's hard to wrestle with that, but like I like your shirt. It says empathy. That's what I come back to. I can have I can have empathy for people and empathy for myself and for who I was. >> Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. I often say that a lot of us grew up in like this basement of Christian thought. We're taught that it was the only option to be a true Christian and you kind of end up finally journeying up the stairs and you have no clue what's up there. You're kind of taught it's like just a desert wasteland and there's all these threats and then you get up and you're like, "Oh my god, there's actually a huge house I was underneath the entire time and like there's this huge house of Christian thought that is massive and there's tons of rooms and different ways to explore it and there's the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church and each of those have their rooms inside of that and there's the Protestant church and you know, black liberation theology and like all these different ways of thinking about the world, right, in in in the house of Christian thought and that takes time to explore that that's a lifelong journey, right? that that is not a >> it's beautiful. >> It's beautiful because you go from a place of judgment and and fear to a place of curiosity, right? Like, hm, I'm kind of curious how this particular room operates. And maybe it's not for you, right? Maybe the Catholic room is not for you or for me, but there's something that you can still respect and appreciate and learn from that room and how it was formed and how it functions and how it sees the world that you can take with you on your journey through life. Right? I just think that that picture has really helped me as I've navigated my own faith journey similar to you and just in a lot of ways of like okay these are really complicated topics and there are not new binaries that I have to land on you know I have to think about these things in more complicated ways because life and ethics and morality and social issues they can get very complex very quickly for how we navigate them as a society. So, I really I really understand that. I think a lot of people in the audience are are on the same journey with you. But there is something freeing >> going from this idea of I have to be right about everything. I can't go to hell when I die. How do I protect that? To okay, I'm not even sure if that's really how it all works. And now I have a lot more to explore and not feel guilty for thinking about new things in different ways. >> Exactly. Like something that really helped me in in navigating that. Number one is when I realized that if God is as strong as I like believe that he is, my dumb little questions are not going to dismantle him. >> And if they do, then he wasn't that strong to begin with, >> right? >> And like it's it's that that curiosity that was not fostered in my community of origin. was discouraged because if you question that means you're doubting and doubt is evil and it's bad. It's Satan. And so realizing that no like the cur curiosity is beautiful and it opens up like your world to new experiences and new expressions of faith. >> Yeah, I love that. Um well listen, I really appreciate you making time on the show and talking to us about your journey with Turning Point, just your journey really into a more complicated but beautiful version of the Christian faith. If people want to find you and follow your work, do you have a public presence? Are you online anywhere? >> Yeah, I'm on Instagram and Tik Tok at babylue.tx. Baby blue because I'm like a new baby Democrat. [laughter] Leaving leaving the right, new to this world. So, babylue.tx um on on those two platforms. >> Awesome. Well, thank you again, Caroline, for joining me. It was really cool to have you on the show. I'm sure we'll talk again soon. So, thanks. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
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