Norman Finkelstein Reveals the Truth About Gaza That Almost Destroyed His Academic Career

The Economist magazine describes Gaza as quote a human rubbish heap. The leading [music] UN official on Gaza describes it as quote a toxic dump for the people of Israel. Gazins are vermin. They're garbage. They're human refu. You guys were the ones that insisted insisted that we all have a perspective on October 7th. [music] Then when we looked and we pierced that veil, we went, "Oh my goodness, how was I ever perishial?" And now you want us to shut up. >> There's a problem here. A billionaire billionaire class of Jewish supremacists are now flagrantly using money as a blackmail weapon to silence not just criticism of Jews, but silence criticism of an ongoing genocide. All right, you guys. I am super excited about this conversation. Where do I begin? I'll just begin with my personal experience. October 7th took place and I remember immediately after there was sort of this peer pressure campaign to get everybody to make a statement about what had happened in Israel. And frankly, I was happy to make a statement about how tragic those events were, but I didn't I couldn't actually make a statement regarding why these events took place. Um, I didn't know what had happened prior to that day. I didn't know the history of the modern state of Israel. And when I began a what I would call a an honest inquiry into the history of the modern state of Israel, I felt that I was basically in a pressure cooker. People that I thought were my friends were telling me not to pursue this route. I didn't comprehend what they meant when they said not to pursue this route. They were calling me names, saying that I was flirting with anti-semitism by wanting to read books and speak to people that were on the opposite side of that issue. And I got into a lot of trouble, and I mean a lot of trouble from people that I thought were my friends when I hosted the person who is now sitting across from me, Norm Finkelestein, on my previous show. And the things that he told me about Gaza were shocking. It was especially shocking because this wasn't from someone that they could easily uh describe as anti-semitic giving us history which he's going to tell you about today. Very important discussion. Uh and he's also an individual that I thought quite strangely none of the people who were peer pressuring me were willing to debate. If Norm Finkelestein is wrong, and he could be, why wouldn't the most prominent voices of the pro-Israel debate be willing to sit down with him and have that discussion? We're going to figure out why. Norm Finglestein, welcome to my show. Actually, mine, totally owned by me, I can host you here. >> Oh, thank you so much for having me on the show. >> So, just in case my audience has not been introduced to you, I would first just sort of like you to and we're going to get to your books, which which are amazing to kind of tell them your backstory and your credentials and what happened despite the fact that you were so credentialed. The backstory is there's a personal element and there is a professional element. The personal element is that I am the son of survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. Both my parents were in what was called the Warsaw Ghetto. The Warsaw Ghetto was repressed after an uprising in April 1943. There were about 20 to 30,000 survivors of the Wasau ghetto uprising and they were deported to Maiden concentration camp and both my father and my mother were deported to Maidenik. My mother ended up in two slave labor camps after Maidenik and my father ended up in Avitz and he was in the Avitz death march. Every member of my family apart from my mother and father on both sides, everybody was exterminated. There were no aunts, there were no uncles, there were no grandparents, there was nothing. Um, and my parents were for reasons not worth going into now. They were decidedly on the left politically. And uh it had a very deep impact on me growing up. And in a way, even though I grew up in a lower middle-class Jewish neighborhood, uh I never quite fit in because of my family background and totally different mindset, I think. Okay, partially different mindset than my peers because of my parents' experience. Uh in June 1982, we're fast forwarding. Uh June 8, 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon and I got involved in the Israel Palestine conflict. In my youth, it was mostly the war in Vietnam, the civil rights movement. Uh in 1982, it became Israel Palestine. I end up writing my doctoral dissertation at Princeton University on the theory of Zionism. And then in 1984, there was a kind of big national bestseller quote from Time in Memorial which claimed to reveal new aspects of the Israel Palestine conflict that proved Israel was in the right and the Palestinians were in the wrong. I was still a graduate student at the time and I proved demonstrate that this book which had the endorsement of the who's who of the Jewish intellectual community back then people like Robert Tuckman who you wouldn't know Saul Bellow the novelist they all endorsed the book and I am widely credited with the one exposing that it was a hoax and uh from there on in Uh I would say after having demonstrated that this kind of humble graduate student proving that all the luminaries were either promo were promoting a threadbear hoax. Um from there on in I would say I encountered difficulties in my professional life. >> Amazing. Um so despite and you did achieve your your PhD. >> Yes. despite this, wasn't there sort of some frogus that happened where they didn't allow you back or what what happened at sort of the end of your career? >> Well, >> academic career, >> right? I would say speaking frankly and believe me, at my age, I have no interest whatsoever in invoking [clears throat] pity. It's water under the bridge. I never had an academic career. I was in academia. It's called being an adjunct. And an adjunct basically means you're hired from semester to semester. It's the equivalent of literally the equivalent of a substitute teacher ex in a public school system except a substitute teacher is paid significantly more than an adjunct. And I was never able to get beyond the adjunct status [clears throat] except one brief period at the pool university in Chicago where by uh a uh concatenation of events. I managed [clears throat] to get on a tenure track job, tenure track job. But when the moment of truth came, I was denied tenure. And after that, because it was a kind of national [clears throat] story, uh when I was denied tenure because professor Alan Dersuitz of uh Harvard University Law School made a determined public uh attempt to stop me. There was a big editorial in the Wall Street Journal by him. uh he made a very public attempt to stop me. Uh after that that was 2008 2007 after that I was completely unemployed not even adjun after that actually I know this will come as a s it will seemed kind of unbelievable I literally couldn't volunteer to teach there were places where in high schools uh a charter school for example in East Harlem where the father the principal was a friend of mine and his daughter, the principal, who was really wonderful and she ran a tight ship that was a darn good school. You could see just walking through the hallways. Um, I said, "I'll volunteer." No. No. So, at that point, after the Depool incident, uh, I was completely blacklisted, but I never got started. It never go the plane never left the tarmac. >> Well, I I do want to stress here as I have been addressing on my show that these schools are Soviet indoctrination camps. I implore people to read Thomas Soul's book about inside the American education system. >> And what he is saying fits perfectly into there. The point is to indoctrinate your children. And if you do not have a doctor, uh, so to speak, that is willing to go into the classrooms and do that indoctrination, they won't let them in. and and this is this this is absolutely proof of that. Okay. So, I want to to sort of give the same background because you were a major piece of me waking up and realizing that I knew nothing about Gaza. Could you just unpack for people who are perhaps hearing this for the first time? I think a lot of people we've seen Israel support has virtually collapsed, but uh and that's because of the behavior that's going on with the censorship has become so extreme in America. But let's actually give these people a background education like you gave me when you came on my show of what actually Gaza is, what is the history there, what happened to these people uh in in 1948. >> Obviously [clears throat] within the limits of an interview, it's very hard to go through that history with any kind of uh >> well you have a book for it. So, I am going to be a be a shameless promoter of this because this is this will we're going to give you the spark notes here, but Gaza, an inquest into its martyrdom is the title of the book that will be relevant for this. Uh, but here we're going to give you some spark notes. >> Mhm. Basically, if I were to try to summarize it for the purposes of this conversation, I believe the place to begin is 1948. The state of Israel is created. In the course of its creation, about 90% of the indigenous Palestinian population of Israel was expelled. About 750,000 people. Of those 750,000, about 300,000 were expelled to Gaza. And that's when Gaza kind of became Gaza. It was um right now of the population of Gaza about 80% are refugees from the 1948 war or descendants of those refugees. Under international law, a descendant of a refugee is still counted as a refugee. So it's 80% a uh refugee population and it's also about 50% a child population. Now um from the moment Gaza came under um Egyptian administration after the 1948 war Gaza comes under Egyptian administration. It's a very interesting fact when you start going through the history. There are all these outside observers who go into Gaza either to work there like under the opaces of the UN or just to see the situation. And one of the things that struck me was each time somebody goes to Gaza, they they describe Gaza as a huge concentration camp. Now, this is still under Egyptian rule. So, Elm Burns, the main UN official in Gaza. He writes a book between Arab and Jew. How does he describe Gaza? He described it as a huge concentration camp. In 1967, during the June 1967 war, Gaza comes under Israeli control. In July 1967, the father of Al Gore, the presidential candidate, his father was also a senator. So Al Gore or Senator Gore meaning the father he goes to Gaza. He comes back and he testifies before the US Congress. How does he describe Gaza? He says Gaza is quote a huge concentration camp on the sand if you will. You now fast forward to 2002. One of Israel's leading sociologists, his name was Baroo Kimberling. He writes a little book. Little book is called Politicite. How does he describe Gaza? He describes Gaza as quote the biggest concentration camp ever. 2004, the head of Israel's National Security Council. His name is Guora Island. He's still around. He's active now behind the scenes in the Netanyahu government. How does he describe Gaza? He describes Gaza as a huge concentration camp. Now bear in mind, bear in mind this is before Israel imposed the blockade of Gaza. It was already a horror show. It's been a horror show since 1948. In n in 2006, Israel imposes a blockade on Gaza. It decides what goes in. It decides what goes out. It decides who goes in. It disguise decides who goes out. They put Gaza on what they call a humanitarian [clears throat] minimum diet. You know what that meant? It meant they calculated, literally, we're not talking about hyperbole now, poetry. They calculated the caloric diet of everyone living in Gaza and they admitted just enough food to avoid scenes of starvation. That was 2006. We're not talking about after October 7. They prohibited baby chicks from going into Gaza. They prohibited chocolate from going into Gaza. They prohibited potato chips from going into Gaza. They prohibited condiments from going into Gaza. No cinnamon allowed in Gaza. Why? They wanted to create such intolerable conditions that the population of Gaza would overthrow the government that they elected. So that was Gaza. Now you come to 2006, October 6. Okay, you come to 2006. The Economist magazine, which you know is not a flaming liberal magazine, uh it describes Gaza as quote a human rubbish heap. The leading the leading UN official on Gaza describes it as quote a toxic dump. 60% of the young people in Gaza, the people who burst the gates of Gaza in October 7th, 60% of them are unemployed. All they have to All they have to look forward to when they get up each morning is to pace the perimeter of this tiny parcel of land. 26 miles long, the length of a marathon, 5 miles wide. That was Gaza. It was exactly what the UN officials said, exactly what Al Gore's father said, exactly what the head of the n Israeli National Security Council said. They were born into they were born into they languished in and they were destined to die in a concentration camp. It was like an elephant burial ground really. And when I struggled after October 7th, I've said this many times, uh, but it's a fact. It's not a drama point. You know, what happened October 7th was awful. There's no doubt in my mind about that. The magnitude was significant. 1,200 people killed about estimates, it's not an estimates, close to 800 of them civilians, 400 uh combatants, Israeli IDF members of the Israeli Defense Forces. It's a significant number. Can't get around that. I know there all sorts of stories about Israel having killed a large number. I've investigated as best I can and I'll admit, you know, there's still room on the margins for error, but I think was overwhelmingly was committed by Hus. And so, how do you how do you reckon something like that? [snorts and clears throat] But in politics, there are many levels. There's the facts, there's your political judgment, there's your legal judgment, there's your moral judgment. And they don't come directly from the facts. They do not. They go through many filters or saves before you get a moral judgment. And when I started to try to think it through uh I latch I I came upon in my mind the Nat Turner rebellion. So for those of your listeners who are unaware it was the largest slave revote in American history and um Nat Turner he gave the order all the historians agree on this. There isn't a huge literature in that Turner but there is a literature they all agree in one point he gave the order which he never denied uh he did the famous confession we don't know how much of the confession is actually him and how much is the person who was writing it but this part seemed real the order was kill all white people kill all white people and that's what they proceeded to do they went on what you might call a 70 no no uh 48 48 hour rampage, less than 48 hours actually, and hacked men, women, babies. It was brutal. It was brutal. Um, but then something struck me. One historian, his name is Steven Oaks, and he's trying to understand Nat Turner's motivation. Why did he do it? And he said, "Nat Turner was a very smart guy. There was no question about that. The person who who took down his confession, he said he was white. He said, "White or black?" Everybody agreed. Nat Turner was a very smart guy. And then he said the historian now he said there was this huge gulf for Nat Turner very smart guy between what he aspired to be in life and what he was destined to be because he was a slave. That huge gulf. He knew he was smart and yet he also knew as the historian Steven Oaks put it that this is only earthly existence. He was born into languish in and would die a slave. And that was the people the young people in Gaza. They knew. You see, now Gaza is in the news, but by uh October 6, 2023, Gaza had vanished from the news. I have made I have made the point because I do believe it's relevant. I had spent about 15 years just chronicling the details of what's happening in Gaza. I began roughly in the early 2000s and by 2020 I gave up. That's a fact. And I'm it was not a fact I was proud of because I was writing books. They were getting more and more detailed. I mean, so micro detail and nobody was reading them. The last book I wrote was called I Accuse. My publisher not happily informed me it sold 370 copies. Of those 370, I purchased half of them. [laughter] No, it's a fact. Because it was about a case related to Gaza in the International Criminal Court and I was hoping to influence the court through my research. So, I was going to present it uh to the I the ICC. Um but by 2020, I said, "Norm, you know, you have only one life to live, and am I just going to stubbornly persist in the face of the fact that nobody cares?" And that was the situation in Gaza. Gaza had vanished from the political scene. By October 6th, 2023, all the talk was about whether the Saudi Saudi Arabia would join the Abraham Accords. Nobody was talking about Gaza anymore. And so the people of Gaza basically did what Nat Turner did. Now, here's the thing. Imagine an account of Nat Turner that doesn't mention he was a slave. Just this crazy religious fanatic. He was a religious fanatic. No question about that. Now, now Turner was a religious fanatic. He used the language of the Bible to try to make sense of his condition. That's what a religious fanatic meant. You know, John Brown, who led the insurrection before the Civil War, he also was a religious fanatic. He deeply, fanatically believed slavery was an abomination to the point that, you know, I don't want to get off on a digression, but when Frederick Douglas, the great abolitionist, when he went to meet John Brown, uh Douglas comments in one of his uh he had three autobiographies. when one of them he comments he just wouldn't stop talking about slavery. [laughter] He said he was boring. He was a fanatic. He was uh Johnny Oneote John Brown only about slavery and and um Nat Turner too. He was a religious fanatic. But imagine if you tried to make sense of the uh Nat Turner rebellion by focusing only on his religious fanaticism like the religiously fanatical Hamas. only focus on that and not mention the guy is a slave >> or mention if it were the circumstance for Nat Turner and it isn't or mentioned the fact that Nat Turner actually the rebellion was funded by money that one of the slave owners gave him that would be something that would be important if there was the BB Netanyahu circumstance there or that you know the slave owners received multiple warnings and for some reason just decided to ignore the fact that this rebellion was brewing I mean, there's a lot of things I've been I've been to Israel and um it is Charlie Kirk said it best immediately after because he had been many many times truly unbelievable. It's it's actually quite scary because every 15 ft there's an armed person. They take their security very seriously. They were I mean now people are speaking out and I think a lot more is going to come out um because they have been censoring uh BB has been lying, censoring, editing transcripts. I've been following the case against him pretty closely because there are Israeli publications that have been documenting everything. Obviously, he's not wellliked um uh by the people in Israel. they are they they were taken to the streets to protest him. But it's it is almost unbelievable um that that circumstance plus when you add to the fact they intercepted a document right way earlier that said 200 hostages were going to be taken by Hamas. It's almost unbelievable they ignored everything plus Egypt warning them that something was happening on the border. I I have never bought that there was not um not that it took place. the course took place and it was terrible, but that there it wasn't intentionally allowed. Um, and I I truly believe that in my soul after I saw the footage prior to October 7th of BBNet and Yahoo, I'm not sure if you've seen this, but he is um he thinks he's off record. He says, you know, put the cameras down, like off record, and he starts detailing a plan where he's like, we got to hit Gaza so hard that they can't go back. And and so they sort of needed a pretext of sorts. And um do I think BB Netanyahu is evil enough to sacrifice his own people? Yes. A million times over. What's been happening in Gaza is a tremendous evil. And I don't think we will truly know the full picture of how evil it was until BB Netanyahu is removed from power and we're able to see the transcripts that he's blocking of of the conversations he had that day with his cabinet. Look, there are obviously there are areas of interpretation here >> and I don't want to pretend as if I have a monopoly in the truth. If you look back at 911, okay, our own September 11th, if you look back, uh, and there were many people who wrote at the time, there were a lot of people in the national [clears throat] national security establishment who had reports that there was going to be an attack. They came in, the reports came in. No question about that. You have to remember when you are a state the size of the United States and the power of the United States, you're going to be getting each day 10,000 intelligence reports about possible terrorist attack here, possible terrorist attack there. The United States has huge number of bases around the world. >> So you're always getting reports. But a intelligence establishment has to rank threats. >> And they ranked the Osama bin Laden threat low or lower than it should have been ranked. In the case of Israel, here we're free to disagree. Israel is it's a Jewish supremacist state. That's not my opinion. Okay. So, the um head of Israel's main human rights organization uh it's called Betelum BT Sl. And the head of Israel's human rights betum, this is a few years ago. It's a guy named Hagai Elad. Very decent guy. I've never met him. I'm not sure if he ever wanted to meet me. uh but decent guy. He was a Harvard trained PhD in physics. Serious fellow. Okay. And he put out a little report or he was the executive director when Bet Selum put out a report. Uh it was probably 10 15 years ago now. 10 I my memory is bad for time now. And he said here are the basic facts. There's one state from the Mediterranean to the Jordan. there's no Israel in occupied territories. There's just one state. >> And he said that state its foundation is Jewish supremacy. There are different levels of Jewish supremacy. It's different for the situation of Arabs, Palestinians living in Israel, Palestinians living in the West Bank, Palestinians living in Gaza, >> and Palestinian refugees. It's different levels, but the foundation is it's a Jewish supremacist statement. Now, why do I mention it? Because for the people of Israel, gazins are vermin. They're garbage. They're human refu. And so when you're getting intelligence reports from Gaza that they're going to launch an operation, uh, Israeli intelligence establishment this thing, what are you talking about? >> They're going to outsmart us. They are going to trick us with our surveillance, with our technology, with our IDF. this vermin is going to be able to pull this off. So, I think they did the same thing as our Bush administration did with Osama bin Laden. They um put it on a low priority. Uh they were shocked that Hamas was able after October 7, they were shocked that Hamas was able to pull it off. Dave Smith uh who's a good friend of mine believes Yeah. has your perspective. He does have your perspective. >> Yeah. One one last point on this because and I want to hear you out. Um you said they Israelis hate Netanyahu. I don't think that's true at all. Netanyahu is the longest sitting prime minister in Israeli history. If you follow it as I do and you're not obliged to, that's not your uh niche. Every few years they report Netanyahu is going. Netanyahu is going. Net is out. Netanyahu is finished. No, he's not. And do you know why? Because he's an obnoxious, narcissistic Jewish supremacist. And that's Israeli society. Obnoxious, narcissistic Jewish supremacist. When they see him, they see themselves. So there may be quarrels on this policy issue and that policy issue, but at the end of the day, they keep voting for him. and they vote for him because Netanyahu is not just the face of he's the reality of Israeli society. >> Yeah. >> When they try so hard, they try so hard. The people who are critical of Israel, people like Bernie Sanders, who's been not bad in recent years, he has his limits, but he's been okay. He always tries to laser beam Netanyahu. That's not true. The problem is not Netanyahu. The problem is the whole of Israeli society. If you look at the polls, half of Israeli Jews believe Israel should commit a genocide in Gaza. >> Wow. >> That's what the polls show. About 70 to 75% in poll say there are no innocents in Gaza. >> No innocents. >> There's nothing but children. >> Yeah. No innocents in Gaza. Half of the population being Jewish. >> The former Israeli or the current Israeli opposition leader. He said that the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, they kill children as a hobby. >> As a hobby. >> Yeah, I've seen some videos of like how proud they are when they kill a child. And it's it's really dark, but also I will say you can see psychological conditioning as in you their viewpoints on the Palestinians you can tell is being nurtured from the time of their a child. And I ran into somebody who left Israel, >> moved to Tennessee recently, and I ran into [clears throat] him >> um at a farmers market and he said, "I absolutely love you and I want you to know >> that we learn this stuff from the time we are children." Totally agree with that. >> He said, and he so he left and he said, "From the time we are children, we learn to hate." So he kind of broke a psychological barrier to get there obviously as an Israeli, but you are correct. I mean, and and that's why psychology really is the name of the game when you're talking about religious fanaticism or any other fanaticism. I want to say also there is an element of psychology and that is why in in my capacity now I be that's actually got a lot of trouble talking about the history of Sigman Freud but if you want to really speak about what is happening with with psychology propaganda PR he's the father of all of that and going back and tracing those roots it's very scary I mean these were really deeply dark people uh who were trying to cover up their own crimes and that is the reality without without getting going off on a tangent here, but you are correct and I think I would like to hear your perspective on how the tentacles of that Jewish supremacy have manifested and and you are actually and I'm sure you wouldn't for yourself as a victim, but I'm saying um what happened to you in your life, the circumstances around what happened in your academic career is actually reflected in the Jewish supremist. These are the perspectives that you have to have if you're going to be welcomed into these spaces that we control. How did that happen? >> Well, I would want to make the following points. Number one, the uh Jewish showing since October 7th. It's actually I'm talking about broadly American Jewish showing. It's actually not been bad. I'm actually very surprised. So, for example, uh somebody sent me this uh let's see, the most recent poll from the Washington Post. It found that 61% of American Jews say Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza. 40% say Israel has committed genocide there. uh and about half about half uh are opposing what Israel is doing in Gaza. It's a little it's about 10% less than the American people in general, but it's not a bad showing and we should recognize that. >> And I say it on my show [clears throat] all the time. I say when we are it it's important to recognize that. Not only that, because I I grew up in Stanford, Connecticut, so I grew up in a very Jewish area. Uh, and I always remark, these are not the Jewish people that you went to school with, right? We're talking about these hubs of power, DC, Hollywood. And so it sounds like when you're reading the news, every Jewish person must hold this perspective, and that is not reality. >> I'm going to say, Candice, I'm grateful that you say that. >> I believe that's factually correct. >> Yeah. If you remember the first demonstrations against the genocide in Gaza, [snorts] the biggest ones were led by Jews at Grand Central Station >> at the Statue of Liberty. It was deeply moving and they were very active. Jewish students were very active in the encampments >> around the country. >> They were but >> and they didn't get the same showcasing in the media. They tried to pretty much squash it, but it was there. And that's important to state >> within that context. Whereas I say the results of the polls aren't bad in my opinion. Within that context, you use the word hubs. It is a fact and one has to in my opinion face it because it's having real consequences. There's a Jewish supremacist billionaire class which is exerting a huge amount of power and muscle up front >> and behind the scenes. So I would just go through a few examples. Um >> can I throw one at you? Barry Weiss becoming the president of CBS News where I am telling you she I mean if she actually sat an IQ test she would be below average >> intelligence. But I would call that and I'll get to that. >> Yeah. >> I would call that Jewish supremacist affirmative action. >> Correct. Beyond affirmative action. Yeah. >> She has no competence. >> She can't even hold a conversation. You don't even want to listen to her. She she is so lacking in gray matter that she couldn't pass the test to be on the view. >> How I mean, how is she not embarrassed to show up for work every day knowing >> that probably the majority everybody knows the majority of people that are probably everyone is smarter than her. They've worked harder than her. They would be better in that position. And everyone's looking at you going >> this is an affirmative action hire. Uh and I call this the children of Bonibberith. and people that are reading the books that I'm reading uh we we'll learn a bit more about that. But she it's so obvious went to did a year at Tel Aviv University. She's in the club. So >> she was she was in the club from a quite young age. She was born she led she led the campaign at Columbia University when she was an undergraduate to try to rid the faculty of p professors critical of the state of Israel. 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So, don't sit this one out. Don't wait for permission. Be bold. Be clear. We should be unapologetically pro-life. Head to pre-born.org/candis right now. Give $28. You can also give 10 times that amount if you can. This is the line that I think that we must stand on. We have to stand for truth and what's right. We need to save lives from abortion and stand firm in the gospel. Again, that is pre-born.org/candis to provide an ultrasound for just $28. >> So, when uh very shortly into October 7th, I'm asked to do a debate and I said fine by Lex Friedman. He asks me to do a debate and that >> I he says who I said who do you want me to debate? He said this thing called destiny. I didn't know what that person was. This thing called destiny. I said >> got a date with destiny. >> Yeah. Exactly. [laughter] Yeah. You are my destiny. I know. You know I don't claim to a distinguished academic pedigree. But at this point in my life, I'm not debating a thing called destiny. So I said to Lex Friedman, "Thanks, but no thanks." And then he, by the way, I didn't know who Lex Friedman was either. I don't follow podcast or things like that. I'm a book person, oldfashioned. And um then he gets back to me about 3 weeks later and he says, "How would you like to debate Benny Morris?" I said, "Sure. Benny Morris is Israel's senior historian. I know his work very well and it would be exciting for me actually from an intellectual level to actually face him because I'd written a lot on him. And then Lex Freriedman says and Destiny. I'm wondering why are you harping on Destiny? >> This random streamer so >> strange. >> Exactly. It was so strange. I I then thought to myself, if I refused, then it would look like I'm afraid to debate Benny Morris because he's his real ser senior historian and very smart. He knows his stuff for sure. And I didn't want that to be broadcast far and wide. Finerstein afraid to debate Benny Morris. So I said, "Okay, uh, if he wants to come along with Benny Morris, this thing called destiny." I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And uh I said I'll debate with my good friend, very smart guy, Muing Rabani, top of the line, and we sh we have the same political outlook. So why do I mention it? A few months later, I'm having a conversation with a friend of mine and he says to me, you know, Destiny was paid to be on with you. I said, no, nobody [clears throat] told me that. He said, "Yeah, he was and he described it because he was discreet. He described it as a Israel advocacy group had groomed him to debate me and had I'm using the words he said paid him handsomely to debate me." And it's an unimpeachable source. By the way, the person who told me this is not political at all. just by coincidence uh he could say with absolute certainty and I know it. >> Why do I mention it? Because at that time this was like this first month into uh October 7th. It was a kind of a revelation. But now we're two years later. We're two years later in the in the time that's elapsed. Not one, not two, three Ivy League presidents were toppled. There's never been I know the history of academic freedom in our country. I've written on it. There's never been anything like it. This massive assault, how was it conducted? [clears throat] It started with people like Bill Aman, the billionaire. >> He threatens Harvard. >> You don't crush the encampments. You don't get alumni money. That was it was very very straightforward. It was pure blackmail and >> which is by the way their favorite tactic. Financial blackmail comes first. >> It was financial blackmail. If you look at the Harvard report on anti-semitism, one alumni, one Jewish alumni gave Harvard $200 million. One alumni gave Harvard $300 million. >> Aman $50 million. And then there was a petition organized. My memory is but the number probably increased vastly. The original version of the petition 1,200 Jewish alumni from Harvard threatened to withhold the contribu uh alumni contributions and so systematically these college presidents are being ousted. I can quote to you but I can't tell you the source but I could tell you no you have to judge people by their track record but I have a track record of being accurate or inaccurate. When President McIll was deposed from the University of Pennsylvania, a person approached her who knew her to express commisceration with her situation. And she replied with two words, "Money talks." >> I can speak to that. I mean, I've lived it. And that is the first thing that happens, which is financial blackmail. And a lot of people want to know, well, why is this person doing this or why are they not saying it? I'm like, at the end of the day, they let you know, you'll lose everything. And some people go, well, it's not risk. I' I'd rather just tow the line so that I can keep life as I know it. And so, yeah, the majority of people are facing that. They have families to feed and they don't know how to restart because in most circumstances, it's all they've ever known, right? You're talking about someone who's maybe been in the academia for a very long time and they're going, "Not only will we forcefully pick you out, kick you out, we'll also slap a tag on you and call our friends in the media like a Barry Weiss when she was at New York Times to smear you and liel you as an anti-semite." And so you're asking for a type of bravery that I would say most people don't have and they just go, "I'm going to shut up." That but the answer to that for people that are listening is take your kids out of the schools. You don't need these schools. I mean, what is the upside? You're paying an absolute fortune for your children to go to debt. The system is rigged anyway, right? They're you think they're going to have the same jobs they want their children to go on. What does it say about our society that Norm Finkelesteed uh can't achieve tenure, but an admitted child rapist like Jeffrey Epstein had a office at Harvard University. Like that that wasn't what caused the the billionaire backlash, which would have made sense. We're all pulling our money, unless you get this person who doesn't have any sort of an academic career, by the way, off of our campus. No. And this was after he admitted and served time in jail. Jeffrey Epstein still had an office on at Harvard University campus. And that's why I say to people, that's a MSAD operation. No matter which way you look at it, um Harvard University, in my view, is running a MSAD operation. But again, don't want to get lost on another tangent. You are absolutely correct that that is a a stunning example of of how uh the mechanics are when we're speaking about their system of financial blackmail. >> There there are many aspects to it and a lot of it has come out in recent months. The paying people of $7,000 for each post in support of Israel. >> Life-changing money for most influencers. >> Imagine that. You can tweet 10 times a day and have $70,000. >> And I know for a fact you're saying you don't you can't speak to your source. I know for a fact because I know someone who took the money [clears throat] >> and they wouldn't tell me what billionaire it was, but uh I can tell you around May of this year >> whenever I I termed it operation mocking pastor was happening where every pastor it seemed started jumped on stage one Sunday and said don't follow Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson. A very weird sermon to preach all on the same day. It was right after Ted um and uh Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson had debated. there was a billionaire that went out and offered what they said to me was an obscene amount of money uh for people to begin influencing by creating anti-Candice and Tucker billion uh uh Tucker videos. So that's how it works. I mean that is just how it works. But I think before they were a little less arrogant and they wanted to be less obvious that that's how it worked. And now there's a panic happening. And so in their desperation, and this is what's happened over the last 2 years, they've just been sort of in your face. We're throwing money at the cause. We control everything and we don't care if you know about it. >> Yeah. I I totally agree with that that now it's become, as I said, it operates in two levels. Part of it, it is remarkably in your face. We uh Bill Aman, a hedge fund manager, decides on his own who is going to be president of Harvard University. You know, there's nothing like that in our history. Just the brazeness of it >> and recently, how about BB Netanyahu on camera with American influence. This is I I said in in commentary about this >> a couple of years ago. If you said that Jewish people held power in media, you'd be referred to as an anti-semite. Fast forward to today and you have BBNet and Yahoo sitting down saying that we I need this deal to go through on TikTok because that is a weapon that we need to be able to use in a room on camera with American influencers. So that is just and they're saying how do we combat Canon and Tucker Carlson? We don't have any power. I I I shoot the show in my basement, you know. I'm there's no I'm not feeding into some web and getting paid from foreign influencers or being funded by Qatar. I mean all smears and liels. And so what does what does that say when you have a a foreign country leader BB Netanyahu saying that on camera? >> Well, I ag I totally agree with that. The fact that he just blatantly says we have to control the media. I would say in response to what you said a few moments ago, you said it does take a lot of courage to resist these this I would say there are levels of courage that it requires. So we'll take the most recent case that came out of um was public of Van Jones. Van Jones is not a poor man. >> Certainly not. He got $100 million from Jeff Bezos. These are Jeff Bezos. These are insurance policies. He gave um Obama $100 million. He gave Van Jones $100 million. Why? It's perfectly obvious. because he knows at some point there's going to be a major strike at Amazon >> because it's a huge operation with a large number of people who are paid sub uh substandard wages. So he has an insurance policy. Make sure if and when that moment comes, Obama will be on his team, Van Jones will be on his team. [clears throat] That's a straightforward transaction, business transaction, >> but it's money, you know, hund00 million dollars. So, why does he do this? Why does he come on TV with his yellow ribbon? I live in an old Jewish neighborhood in Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn. There's literally a synagogue in every block. In some blocks, there are two synagogues. You walk up and down Ocean Parkway, it's all Jewish. I don't see anyone wearing a yellow ribbon. I know. I'm really >> No, I know. >> I don't see anyone wearing a yellow ribbon. >> Why is Why is Van Jones advertising the flag? He's just advertising I'm a slave. >> Yeah, >> that's what he's saying. >> He used to brand slaves >> and he's just a slave. >> And um >> this is how I feel when I see uh people in Congress. I mean, think about a presidential debate wearing a a a flag pin from a flag, but it's not American. It's like you're you're just a a slave. >> And he's wearing the yellow ribbon here. If there were any what you call truth in advertising, he would wear a dollar sign here, >> a a dollar gold pin >> over here because it's just money. It's such a revolting site. And he goes on with Bill Maher and Tom Freriedman, two Jewish supremacists, and they're laughing about dead gods and babies, you know, very funny. They're laughing about And the thing is, Van Jones knows they're not just laughing with him, they're laughing at him. >> Yeah. >> He's our slave. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he has he doesn't have [clears throat] even that minimum that minimum selfrespect and dignity. He makes jokes about uh dead Palestinian babies. So >> gosh, I didn't I didn't hear I didn't hear whatever joke that he said. And so that >> makes my skin fall. >> He said that if you open up Tik Tok, all you see is dead Palestinian babies. dead Palestinian babies. Dead Palestinian Betty babies did dead Palestinian babies. [laughter] And he says, "Do you know why you only see that?" He says, "Because the Iranians and Qatar are behind it. They are they are manipulating the media." But there's another possible explanation. You know what the possible explanation is? Maybe there are a lot of dead Palestinian babies. In fact, just the very first month, just October 2023, do you know more Palestinian children were killed just that first month >> than all the other war zones in the world combined in 2019, 2020, or 2021 or yeah 2021 if you combine them if each year if you combine each year every other war zone this tiny parcel of land called Gaza more children were killed >> now it's about the minimum estimate the minimum estimate is 20,000 children killed >> now if you look at the the human rights supports. It'll probably come as a surprise to you. You look at the most recent one, it's put out by the UN, the Na'vi Pale Commission. Na'vi Pai was the former uh human rights chief in the UN and then she was on the tribunal, the president of the tribunal on Rwanda. She's from South Africa. They report Israel targets children. targets them in the head and in the chest. Israel targets toddlers, that's the word they use, targets toddlers in Gaza. They said in the report in order for children who are suffering from malnutrition, you I know you have four children, so you'll be much more uh knowledgeable than me. They need a special infant baby formula. I guess it's a high protein infant baby formula. Israel bans it. But for Van Jones with his frat boys, Tom Freriedman, it's all Qatari and uh Iranian propaganda. But then and what's interesting about that is they cannot produce a shred of proof >> that anybody is funded by guitar. It's just it's a literal talking point that has been fictionalized [clears throat] by BBNet and Yahoo's agents. You have to register under FAR every time you take a meeting. They cannot produce one shred of proof to that effect. And yet all of the proof is here that actually everyone is funded by Israel in America. And so you just go for for Van Jones. I mean, I I can't imagine going to bed every night and just realizing it doesn't matter how nice your house is, you're still you're still a slave. You're still a slave. And >> and to advertise it, the yellow ribbon. >> Yeah. >> Well, where's the yellow ribbon? >> Mhm. >> Does Ben Shapiro still wear it? >> Does he used to wear it? >> I think he used to >> I I'm not sure. >> But currently, this is two years later. M >> I don't know anyone who he but he still wears it just to to show you know I'm sure it's in his contract if you wear the yellow ribbon an extra thousand a bonus $1,000 >> and and and that is it's really important for people to know that how the dynamics work because they do this through charity and I know that there are other people that are working on a report on this now because it's become so obvious of how they will even give people the permission these influencers to say well I I'm not taking any foreign money okay nobody body expected that you were receiving a check from BB Netanyahu. What they do is they'll flood the zone and they'll give money to like the International Fellowship of Christian and Jews or put, you know, put money into a church and then those individuals will then give money to influencers. like it's it's such an obvious game and it's I I will say on the quote unquote Christian side of things, we're seeing that people are awakening to these pastors that are going on these multiple trips to Israel and coming back and telling their congregants that no matter what, they have to support BB Netanyahu. I mean, it's nutty. But I'm happy because it does seem as though we are reaching this inflection point where the correct people who uh and the honest people rather have been telling the truth for a very long time are finally getting their day. >> I would say public opinion is shifting for sure. You know, um I I'll I'll return to that in a moment. As I said, there's a such a complete unwillingness to see the situation you're in, you're placed in when you are um uh you're just a slave for these folks. So, you take the case of Barry Weiss, okay? And there are people who work in her outfit who are not Jewish. You read, she wrote a little book. It was a stupid book. It was a I mean it was a comic. It wasn't a book. It's sort of the I teach and it was something you get from a a a paper from a a freshman a freshman paper. And how she end the book? Let me just quote this is how it's a book about anti-semitism and how to fight it like she knows about fighting anti-semitism. Here she writes this is the force of who we are. We are a people descended from slaves who brought the world ideas that changed the course of history. One God, human dignity, the sanctity of life, freedom itself. This is our inheritance. That is our legacy. We are the people commanded to bring light into this world. I mean, these are just, you know, that's a passage you would, if you replace the proper noun, it's something you'd read in mine. That's their mentality. These are Jewish supremacists. And what do they think of a Van Jones? What's going through their head when they see a Coleman Hughes? Where do they think they'll never be us? >> Complete contempt. >> Complete contempt. Our slaves. >> Mhm. 100%. Yeah. >> It's pitiful. >> Really? >> Um >> and then they could ruin those people in 4 seconds. Like it's like you are literally our property. And I and and I sensed that because I do want to add this one element like before October 7th, there were tons of people who were on the quoteunquote pro-Israel side like me uh meaning never cared to look at the issue. Sounds okay. B, you know, basic I'm not going to speak about this issue because I don't really know about it and it's not relevant to speak about. I I really entered in the scene of politics really intent on sort of waking up black America to other layers of slavery like you know what we learned in the classroom and constantly thinking that we have to marry ourselves to one party or and now I'm kind of through both and being like actually both sides are really bad. Um but yeah so it's very I do want people to be forgiving and know that some people genuinely just don't know. Uh but now we're not there. We're not at that point anymore. People don't know. They very much know and they are making a conscious decision that the cash means more to them than the truth. That they are willing to allow children to be murdered and killed every day plucked off in Gaza >> and to tell jokes about it and to and to spread lies about the condition that is happening. When you see if you do not have a spiritual reaction uh to seeing those children that are starving every day, they will always pluck the one example of this guy wasn't actually starving and so therefore nobody's starving. And it is so plainly obvious that that is untrue again before October 7th. That would have been untrue. Uh that you just wonder if these like I just don't know how they do it. genuinely don't know how they do it because I would rather lose everything as I've proven, take it all, than to speak something that is untrue because I know that my soul will pay a consequence for that. >> As I said, 40% of American Jews are convinced Israel is committing genocide. >> Yeah. >> But Coleman Hughes doesn't see it. >> Van Jones doesn't see it. Uh there is a British proverb uh there are none so blind as those who will not see. And if you know the Bob Dylan song from my generation blow in the wind. How many times can a man turn his head and pretend that he doesn't just doesn't see? Well, if the if the remuneration is enough many times. Well, I think that's also I know that you're you're uh you don't engage much on social media and you also don't even have a cell phone, but I released this week. I sort of waited for everybody to lie uh which they did. Of course, they love lying about Charlie Kirk and what he was going through in the end and I released the text message chain 48 hours before he died where he said, "They've left me no choice but to abandon the pro-Israel cause." And I really think that the best person that put it very plainly like if you lost Charlie Kirk who was actually so committed to Israel uh for him uh as an as he started evangelical uh evangelical Christian and then he couldn't unsee and he said explicitly in his message because of Jewish behavior and we know what he meant. He didn't mean all Jews in America. It's like that power that we are talking about that happens and the way they were treating him as if he was suddenly he woke up and realized like I did. Oh, I thought that you guys were supporting me because you were my friends. I thought you supported me because I will pursue the facts. I thought you supported me because you want me to have a platform because I will speak truth to power. And then when you turned around and realized, well, wow, I was just a slave to you. You view me as something other. And for Charlie, I I think he was realizing at the end, or maybe he never understood it, that if you take the king's shilling, you fight the king's war. >> Well, there's a proverb I I'm not familiar with that proverb, but there's he who pays the piper calls the tune. [clears throat] >> And what do you do when you have a not for-p profofit 501c3 that has taken millions of dollars? And Bob Showman was one person who took $2 million away from him instantly if he didn't uh you know start pedaling the correct talking points about Israel and he was he was just done in the end and then you know he he died. So it was no longer a problem but they then rushed to misrepresent and to pretend that that period didn't happen. He literally told BB Netany and Yahoo on the phone no because they were panicked about losing Charlie. He calls and invites him to Israel and Charlie said no. And yet BB then rushed to lie or I guess to not tell the whole truth when he says I called him two weeks ago and invited him to Israel. It's like and what did he say BB? What did what what did Charlie say back to you? So it's it is um yeah you know we we see that story playing out right now where you see the fight to make sure that they control people. People that genuinely like me and Charlie believe that they were just our friends and believed in our mission to just tell the truth no matter what that truth is. Which means that naturally if you're interested in committed to truth your perspectives will change with more information which is what happened to me. My perspective changed because well not even more information just information in general in large part thanks to the work uh that you're doing and uh people like Dave Smith and yeah it really woke me up to what happened there. There is the money issue and then the money issue is combined with the wholesale assault on academic freedom and on freedom of speech. Uh so we'll just take a recent example. There were the several young people. They were what's called nonitizen immigrants here. people like Khaled Makm Khalil at Columbia University and they were rounded up, sent off to strange places in some cases were things like literally writing an op-ed in the tough school newspap tough school newspaper. That's it. critical of the administration because of its support of Israel, de facto support of Israel. And there was a week and two weeks ago a decision uh came down in eastern eastern district court on this whole case with these guys, okay? Uh who were arrested by ICE put in strange places. The guy who wrote the decision, his name is Judge Young. He was a Reagan appointee. So we're not talking about Hamas supporter, a Reagan appointee and he wrote a 161page decision and he said nonres noncitizen immigrants they have the right to free speech. That's in our jurist prudence. They have that right. Number two, he said they didn't say anything that crossed any line. They supported the Palestinians. They didn't support Israel. That doesn't This is America. >> You have the right to free speech. You yourself might be surprised. Our Supreme Court has ruled. You have the right to advocate the violent overthrow of our government. the violent overthrow of our government. You have that right. That's what our Supreme Court ruled. Our Supreme Court ruled you have the right to burn the American flag. During the war in Vietnam, there are large number of demonstrators, myself included. You may not like it. I'm talking about our laws. We chanted ho ho ho Chi Min. The NLF National Liberation Front is going to win. >> Nobody got arrested for that. Nobody got pulled up off the street for that. There were literally millions of people chanting things like that. Now these young people in the encampments, they're chanting things like from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. I don't like that slogan personally, but that's their right. This is America. And the judge ruled Reagan appointee, he's 85 years old, he says by not letting them speak, rounding them up, sending them off to strange places, he says, quote, you're terrorizing, that's the word he used, you're terrorizing people's right to free speech. He said when they ICE puts on the masks, you know what he said? I'm quoting him word for word. These are cowardly desperados acting like the Ku Klux Clan. That's the words he used. Who was behind this assault on our freedom of speech? >> The Trump administration. No, the Trump administration you could say broadly, but on the specific issue of the uh encampments and Israel and Palestine, that was the Jewish billionaire class, >> the Trump administration. [laughter] >> So, we're in radical agreement. >> But, but remember, it began under Biden. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about when he actually Makmoud Khal because I followed that case, right? And they were I was looking at I was because I believed in Trump and I voted for Trump and >> I agree with that part. >> They got up there and they pretended he was some terrorist and they lied and I'm like but he wasn't and we were the ones that said that we would fight for free free speech. >> He was actually the mediator at Columbia. He was I followed it. Yeah. >> You know, so it's a wholesale assault on freedom of speech in uh our society and it was led by these people. the same billionaire class um >> that cut checks and this is the problem when you take the money which I say you fight the king's wars >> I told >> how did Trump get into office who cut him to checks like who cut him a $100 million check Miriam Mson um and so the presidency can be bought okay there's no question >> yes I think >> as all things in America you there is a certain level where you can purchase outright purchase influence and it's hard for us to to recognize that and I had to really come to terms with that. This was this has been hard for me as someone who has been a vocal supporter of Trump, truly believed that he sort of beat the billionaire class to get into office to see him so radically in this term specifically shift on the his perspectives of speech. I actually feel watching him pains me to see this administration play Twister to explain while we're free speech but you know this is different. These are Hamas supporters. All of these psychological games. And no, you're not instantly a Hamas supporter if you have questions about what's going on over there. And by the way, they also gaslight us where they're like, then they get to the you're obsessed with us. It's like, no, you guys were the ones that insisted insisted that we all have a perspective on October 7th. And so when some of us actually said, "Okay, well, let me get educated because maybe let me roll my sleeves up and be radically pro-Israel." Then when we looked and we pierced that veil, we went, "Oh my goodness, how was I ever perishial?" And now you want us to shut up. Now you want our influence gone. Now you want to smear us as anti-semmites and Hamas supporters. And it's it it really is telling. >> Well, there are two aspects. Number one, this is America. You're allowed to be a Hamas supporter. That's our freedom. I am not a flag waiver, but facts are facts. That's what was determined by our Supreme Court. And secondly, they're not. I mean, you're correct. They're not. >> They're not. And even if they were, yeah, >> exactly. They're not. And even if they were, you have that was what the judge said. The judge said, I disagree with a lot of the the things these people say, but that's their right. >> And I just also want to say this to just kind of get this off of my chest because this is what deeply troubles me the most. Going back to your slave analogy, which is actually not an analogy, what it feels like to me when these and now I recognize Jewish supremacists supported me and platformed me when I was attacking BLM cuz I I recognized this this altogether Marxist strand and I was saying and I stood up to my my own people, right? My own people and said, "Let me tell you why this is not going to work out. Let me tell you granddad's lessons." I wrote an entire book. You're amazing, Candace. let me get you this platform, that platform, fly you here. And then when I was like, oh yeah, and I know this is going to be hard for you, but you guys are now going to have to stand up to the Jew. >> Get out of here. >> Get out of here. You are gone. You were banned from Australia for speech. I mean, think about this. This is crazy. And I'm going, so what was I to you actually? >> I I was never there was something there was a difference here. We didn't believe we didn't you didn't agree with me principally on BLM stuff. You didn't cuz if the principles held if you said I believe in free speech and and you have to sometimes stand up in your own identity box and say something is wrong. They didn't agree with me principally. That troubles me. >> Yeah, it should trouble you. That's what happened to Glenn Lowry. I'll just tell you an anecdote that's called a October 7th and thereafter anecdote. So I wrote a book having nothing to do with Israel Palestine. It was on um cancel culture. This book okay and Glenn and I was very critical of the cancel culture, the woke phenomenon. I didn't uh I didn't agree with it. I strongly disagreed with it. So Glenn Lowry has me on. Okay. Now remember, I said I had given up on Gaza. And one of the things I did after I had given up on Gaza was write this book on cancel culture. Totally different subject. So Glenn Lowry has me on. Truth be told, I didn't want to talk about Gaza. I didn't want to talk about Israel Palestine. I had left it behind. I'm speaking factually, not proudly. I had left it behind. So Glenn Lowry says, he begins the show, it's under YouTube, you could see it. He begins the show by saying, "I would be remiss in my responsibility if I didn't ask you about your views on Israel Palestine. I didn't bring up the subject." He brought up the subject. Anybody curious, go watch the program. I had no intention whatsoever of talking about it. He brought it up. So he asked me my opinions. I expressed them and then we went on to talk about the book. Okay. Next week he does a program doesn't tell me anything. He and John McQuarter they devote about 20 or 30 minutes. I didn't watch the whole thing. It was kind of too painful. Not because of what they said about me, but the smarmyiness, the fact that they didn't alert me to what they were going to do. You know, the African-American spiritual scandalized my name. I gave my brother my right hand and as soon as ever my back was turned, >> he scandalized my name. >> That's how I feel. >> Do you call that a brother? No, no. Behind my back, they start to psychoanalyze me. John Mcwarter. I mean, he knew me for the length and breadth of the program. And what happens after October 7th? Glen Nori gets pressure to talk about what's happening here. and he has on Omar Barto, who's a senior scholar, says Israel is committing genocid