Up Next
Devin Gibson Reacts to Post-Election Meltdowns After Trump's Victory Over Kamala Harris
23:47
Megyn Kelly Exposes Media Coverage of Leftist Protesters Celebrating Charlie Kirk's Assassination and Threatening Trump Family
24:10
Charlie Kirk Breaks Down Trump's Constitutional Strategy to Shrink Government and Expose Federal Waste
13:20
Scott Ott, Bill Whittle and Steven Green Analyze Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency Tenure
Scott Ott, Bill Whittle, and Steven Green examine a Washington Post editorial claiming Elon Musk failed as head of the Department of Government Efficiency during his 135-day tenure. Rather than simply critiquing the piece, they explore what Musk accomplished, the structural obstacles he faced, and what a longer-term approach to government reform might look like. The discussion reveals why market forces don't work in government, how Congress, not waste and fraud, drives deficits, and why the ratchet effect makes cutting programs nearly impossible. They argue that real reform requires tackling the constitutional role of federal agencies, not just firing employees or cutting budgets.
The Washington Post's Assessment of Elon Musk's DOGE Tenure
Scott Ott opens the discussion by referencing a Washington Post editorial board op-ed examining Elon Musk's time as head of the Department of Government Efficiency during his legally permitted 135-day employment period. While surprised by the editorial's relatively measured tone, Scott notes the piece failed to acknowledge the positive aspects of Musk's achievements. However, he finds value in several criticisms worth examining more deeply.
The editorial identified three main issues with Musk's approach. First, he attempted to change a system he didn't fully understand. Second, while many have dreamed of applying business principles to government, government agencies face no market forces—no competition trying to eliminate them daily. Third, Musk focused on cleaning house rather than finding ways to support good government employees trying to do their best under difficult constraints.
The piece argues that not every government employee is a willing bureaucrat. Many have learned that keeping their jobs long-term requires extensive self-justification behavior in case they face congressional committees or court proceedings. Scott suggests that if Musk had been given a mandate to staff DOGE for the long haul and make substantive improvements with carryover effects—rather than just cutting spending here and there—the outcome might have been different.
Why Government Incentives Work Differently Than Business
Steven Green responds by questioning whether Musk could have done much better given his limited time, power, and the numerous obstacles he faced. He explains that government simply doesn't operate like business because market forces don't apply.
Green shares an example of a colleague who earned his master's in business and started working for a major company. This person noticed that during difficult economic times, the company focused intensely on cutting costs and did it well. But during boom times, all discipline disappeared, which helped precipitate the next downturn. His detailed presentation proved what everyone felt but hadn't articulated, setting the company on a better course by applying fiscal discipline during good times as well as bad. That's how you transform a good company into a great one.
Government incentives work completely differently. If you save money, your budget gets cut the following year, and suddenly you're viewed negatively. That's how bureaucracy functions. The incentives don't exist, and you can't introduce them because government operates as its own entity without market forces.
The Ratchet Effect and Concentrated Benefits
Green argues that Musk's main battle was against what Margaret Thatcher called the ratchet effect. When the left implements a new law or spending program, it clicks into place like a ratchet and stays there until the next thing clicks into place. Moving the ratchet backward proves extremely difficult, which is one reason conservatives tend to lose over the long haul. Once a program exists, a vocal constituency will defend it to the death because everyone loves their free money.
Green expresses frustration with Mitch McConnell, who during the Tea Party era dismissed those wanting to limit spending by saying no one ever came to his office asking to cut a program. Green's response: "You're a Republican, you dumb son of a... It's supposed to be in your blood." Yet McConnell was just doing what people asked because he wanted to keep his job—all part of the ratchet effect.
Scott adds that former Senator Pat Toomey said the same thing, noting nobody comes to his office asking to cut programs. Toomey explained the difference between the concentration of value to program beneficiaries and the distribution of costs. No individual voter sustains a major hit from any single government program, but some vendors and special interests receive significant benefits. They'll be constantly lobbying and trying to buy dinner, but voters don't notice the 75 cents of their weekly paycheck going to a particular program because costs are spread out while benefits are concentrated.
Deficits Come From Congress, Not Just Waste and Fraud
Scott reveals that while walking that morning, he had been thinking about government waste, fraud, and abuse—the same topic covered in the Washington Post piece. The editorial made a point he had been contemplating: deficits are not primarily created by waste, fraud, and abuse. Deficits are created by Congress spending money they don't have.
By focusing on waste, fraud, and abuse as the central issue—while not a bad thing to address—we miss the bigger problem: 535 people who think their job is to bring home pork belly for their constituents. If Musk had a do-over, Scott suspects he would take a more structural, long-term approach rather than racking up wins by dropping employees or closing departments. Those actions sent a signal, but so far there's been no follow-up process to free up good employees to do good work, save taxpayer money, perform essential services, and ensure we're not paying people who aren't essential.
Bill Whittle's Perspective on DOGE's Continuation
Bill Whittle begins by joking about stepping out of Reagan National Airport and feeling an overwhelming desire to spend other people's money. He emphasizes an important point: DOGE is not closed. The work continues even though Musk's direct involvement has ended.
Whittle admits disappointment that Musk didn't accomplish more. For several weeks, Musk looked like Archangel Michael with a fiery sword, eliminating USAID while the Department of Education seemed destined to disappear. People like Whittle were anticipating what would happen when he reached the defense department or the social programs with their fraud and waste.
While Congress spending more than it takes in remains the fundamental problem, we also waste enormous amounts of money. The work done so far was just the tip of the iceberg. Even just eliminating USAID defunded many Democratic programs, getting dirty money out of politics after we had been funding our own opposition for 25 to 40 years.
Whittle was expecting much more and still hopes for more, to some degree. Because Musk is so famous and the richest man in the world, the heat he took—with people destroying Teslas—was more than anyone could bear. The blow-up between Musk and President Trump, which fortunately didn't escalate into a major conflict, showed real restraint on Trump's part while Musk expressed regret for some of his statements.
Whittle understands the frustration of entering government determined to restructure it into an organization that saves money and pays down debt, only to see spending bills pass that make you wonder why you became the most hated person in the world. That must be completely heartbreaking.
If grading the effort, Whittle would give it a C+ as a good start that showed what's possible. He hopes people still there are saving money under the radar, which may be the most effective approach. But he misses the sense from those first six or seven weeks when it looked like we would actually restructure this out-of-control behemoth that functions like a black hole—the more money it takes in, the bigger it gets, and the bigger it gets, the more money it takes in. It looked like someone was actually cutting pieces off and making it smaller.
The Moral Argument for Government Reform
Whittle argues this needs to be sold as a moral issue, not just a cost-saving issue. The president needs to make the case that we don't need departments of education, energy, or transportation. They need to go as part of addressing a systemic problem. Until people address the moral and ideological issues, we'll just get deeper into debt, and sooner or later that bill will come due.
For a while, we appeared to be on a trajectory to actually pay down debt. Even paying down something minor like $10 billion on a $35 trillion debt—that's at least changing the curve and moving in the right direction. That creates confidence. A figure like Elon Musk with that fiery sword was needed to motivate the base to get excited about fundamentally changing how government does business. They had some success, but not nearly enough, and Whittle hopes to see more in the future.
The Challenge of 535 Board Members
Scott notes that even running private companies, Musk has sometimes run afoul of his own board of directors. But imagine working for a board of 535 people, all of whom are—as Green would say—idiots. Even if they weren't, even if they were 535 decent individuals hoping to be reelected or elected to higher office, that's an uncontrollable set of variables.
When trying to make changes in a government that has overgrown the box it came in, you must contend with the court system. You can't control what a federal judge will rule, what a district court panel will decide, or what the Supreme Court will determine. Those are substantial obstacles.
Scott doesn't accept the Washington Post editorial's premise that Elon Musk failed. However, we may have oversold what one man—even a genius with great accomplishments—can do in such a constrained timeframe. He hopes the work continues on a more low-key basis without Musk as a lightning rod or potential for drama with the president distracting from the actual purposes.
Lessons From Local Government
Scott shares insights from his brief stint in local governance at the county level. As long as elected officials are in charge of anything, their decisions won't necessarily be made for the good of the people or organization. They'll be made by gut feel about what will get them reelected—and they don't actually know what will get them reelected, but they think certain actions will help their prospects.
People don't realize how much time members of Congress spend raising money for their next campaign, driven by leadership and campaign committee leadership to spend even more time fundraising. All kinds of mixed motives exist in that environment.
Scott appreciates two points from the editorial. First, Congress—not waste, fraud, and abuse—is the major problem. You can nibble at the crust by addressing waste and fraud, but to reach the core, you must reform the process of developing omnibus budget bills. You must reform what Congress is allowed to delegate to agencies through broad general directives, then slapping their wrists when they don't like the results. And you need to distance the federal government from things it doesn't need to be involved in.
Getting Government Out of Businesses It Shouldn't Be In
At the local level, Scott worked on a project involving a county-owned nursing home. Not every county commissioner who gets elected publicly asks, as Scott did, why the county owns a nursing home. What business do we have doing this? Do you really want your most vulnerable, aged, and disabled citizens in the hands of people just trying to get elected? Is that where they'll get their best care?
Scott tried to get an analysis comparing how well the county nursing home was running versus other nursing homes not controlled by the county. His long-term objective was to suggest farming it out or selling it—getting out of that business entirely.
The more things government can exit—not just firing people within departments, but dispersing federal workers across the country to offices in existing state buildings where they coordinate with states—the more hope exists. You no longer have those 535 board of directors people looming over your shoulder.
A Call for Long-Term Strategic Reform
Scott wants more experiments like President Trump's Department of Government Efficiency. He wants it to continue, but with a much more long-term strategic, constitutional, and structural approach—and far fewer headlines. The objective isn't generating campaign enthusiasm so people hit your website and send money. The objective is actually making a difference.
Video Transcript
Why Elon Musk failed. I'm Scott with
Bill Whittle and Steven Green. This
episode of Right Angle is brought to you
by the members at bill whittle.com.
Gentlemen, that's the headline over an
editorial board op-ed piece in the
Washington Post this week talking about
the mistakes that Elon Musk made as head
of the Department of Government
Efficiency during the some 135 days that
he was legally allowed to uh be in that
employment. And men, I I want to look at
this in a different way than the
Washington Post did. Uh, first of all,
let me say I was surprised at how not
crazy the whole thing was. Um, I really
expected a a much linear kind of thing
and the and I will grant that they
didn't consider the positive aspects of
what Elon Musk achieved in that role.
Uh, but Steven Green, they did they did
point out some things which I thought
were worth hearing. And I want to put
this more in the context of what do you
think would happen if a guy like Elon,
not that there's anybody like him, uh
had had more than 135 days, had the uh
the opportunity to devote themselves
long-term to the process that it would
take to make the federal government more
efficient. But there were there were
several things they point out and I'm
summarizing briefly here, Steve. Uh
number one, they said he he tried to
change something that he didn't fully
understand. Uh number two, while there
are many people who have dreamed of what
would happen if a good business person
got into government, was able to run it
according to government principles, one
of the things you need to understand
when you're running a government agency
is there are no market forces that um
you have to deal with in business. So
there's nobody who's basically trying to
kill you every day and you have to
survive. Uh they didn't say it that way.
I did. Um, number three, uh, he he aired
in in just cleaning house as much as he
could, but not trying to find ways to
support the good government employees
who were doing the best they could under
the constraints of the circumstances.
Um, and the the piece makes the argument
that not every government employee is a
willing bureaucrat. However, they've
learned that if they want to keep their
job long-term, they have to spend a lot
of time in self-justification
behavior in case they wind up in front
of some sort of congressional committee
or some courts uh where they have to
explain what they did. And um so uh
Steve,
I I kind of agree uh with these elements
given the fact that he didn't have much
time to work with. uh which I think it
would have been better if they said uh
Elon we want you here for 135 days and
when we want you to staff the government
the department of government efficiency
for the long haul and we want you to
make substantive
uh improvements that will have carryover
effects not just cleaning house or you
know cutting some bit of spending here
or bit of spending there. Um Steve if if
Elon had a doover in this uh Knowing
what he now knows, how do you think he
might better approach it? I'm not sure
given the the limited time and the
limited power and the many obstacles he
faced that there he might have been able
to tinker at the margins a bit and and
do a better job. But overall, um I think
he found about as many efficiencies as
you're going to find in government
because it's government and and and
that's not how it works. Give you an
example. Um you talk about uh the the
lack of market forces. Many many years
ago I I knew a guy uh got his masters in
business started to work uh just a few
months after he got his degree for a big
company and he started looking at uh
spending practices. And what he noticed
was that that during the bad times his
company was very focused on on on
cutting costs and always did a very good
job of it. But during during the boom
times, uh, all of that discipline went
to hell. And that of course helps
precipitate the bad times. And he put
together this this this huge
presentation with all these facts and
figures and and charts and all the stuff
you'd expect. And it really blew them
away because it was one of those things
that everybody felt, but nobody had ever
really enumerated
or or just plain old proven. And it it
set them on a on a great course at at
this company because they were able to
take proactive measures to take that
discipline that they had during the bad
times and apply it to the good times as
well. And that's how you take a really
good company and make it into a really
great company. Government incentives
don't work that way. If you save money,
your budget's going to get cut next year
and now you're bad because that's how
bureaucracy works. There's the the
incentives. they they don't exist and
you can't introduce them because that's
not how government works. It's its own
thing. There are no market forces as you
said. Um but I think mostly what what
Musk Musk's main energy was what
Margaret Thatcher called the ratchet
effect, which is when the lefties get
something new, whether it's a law or a
spending program, whatever, it's like a
ratchet. It clicks into place and it
stays there until they click the next
thing into place. And it's very
difficult to get that ratchet to move
the other way. It's one of the reasons
why if you look at the the long haul,
conservatives tend to lose is because of
this this damn ratchet effect that they
enjoy. And the reason is once you get
that program into place, there is a
constituency that will be very vocal in
defending it. They'll defend it unto
death because they love that free money.
Everybody loves their free money. Um, in
fact, so much so that uh God, if you
need another reason to hate Mitch
McConnell, I I got one here for you.
Back during the Tea Party days, Mitch
McConnell was was dismissing all of us,
you know, radical people who wanted to
put a lid on all this stupid spending.
He said, this is Mitch McConnell, you
know, Republican senator. He said,
"Well, I've never had anybody in come to
my office and ask me to cut a program."
And my my
I got so angry I think I shouted at my
computer monitor. I said, "You're a
Republican, you dumb son of a
It's supposed to be in your blood."
Yeah. And and yet no, he's just he's
he's doing what the people ask him to do
because he wants to keep his job. This
is all part of the ratchet effect. That
said it was about the left and mostly it
is. But it it infests everybody who
wants to stay in Washington instead of
just go there to do a job like Elon Musk
did.
Senator, former Senator Pat Tumi wrote
much the same thing. He said, "Nobody
comes to my office asking me to cut a
program." And what he talked about was
the difference between the concentration
of value to the people who are benefited
by a program and the uh the distribution
of the cost of that program. So no
individual voter sustains a major hit
from any individual government program,
but some individual vendors and other
kinds of special interest people do get
a major benefit from those programs. So
they'll be at your ear all the time and
trying to buy you dinner, but the voter
doesn't come in and say, "Hey, I noticed
that 75 cents of my uh weekly paycheck
is going to this program." because they
just don't notice it because the the
cost is spread out but the benefit is
concentrated uh on a few interests. Uh
Bill Whittle, one of the things it's
funny because I I read this piece after
I took my morning walk today during
which I I swear I was actually thinking
about this topic of government waste,
fraud, and abuse. And we heard a lot
about that during the the term of uh Mr.
Musk's uh government service. And um
what I was thinking at the time was
echoed in this editorial board piece in
the Washington Post, which is that
deficits are not primarily created by
waste, fraud, and abuse in government.
Deficits are created by Congress.
They spend the money that they don't
have. It's and and by focusing on waste,
fraud, and abuse, which is not a bad
thing, and making that the central
piece, we miss the big problem, which is
we have 535 people out there who think
their job is to go home to their
constituents and say they brought home
um a big slab of pork belly for their
people. And uh in in any case, uh I
think that if Musk had to do it over
again, Bill, I suspect he would take a
more structural approach
long-term rather than just try to to
rack up some wins by saying, "Okay,
we're going to drop employees here.
We're going to close this department."
Those certainly sent a signal, I think,
but there was no there was at least so
far we haven't heard. Uh there's no
follow-up process to say, look, that was
just the tip of the iceberg. What we're
really trying to do here is free up good
employees to do good work to save
taxpayers money and perform essential
services and make sure that we're not
paying people who are not essential to
those services. Well, boy, there's a lot
there. I was just in DC two weeks ago
and I stepped out of the terminal at
Reagan and waiting for the Uber and I
felt this overwhelming overpowering
desire to spend other people's money. It
was just uh just more than I could bear
almost. So, first of all, Doge is not
closed, right? I mean, there there's
Okay, so so it's not like the it's not
like we had 135 days of this and and
then it's it's over. he did in fact um
staff it and and it and its work
continues to go on and and and so on. Uh
I am a little not just a little
disappointed I there there was a period
there for several weeks where where Elon
just looked like Archangel Michael with
a fiery sword and was just going to come
down just eliminated USA ID. um
Department of Education looked like it
was going to disappear and and people
like me were saying, "Boy, wait till he
gets to the defense department or wait
till he gets to, you know, um the all of
the social programs that we have and and
all of the fraud and and waste there,
too." So, yes, you're right. The the
problem is we spend more money than we
take in, and that is Congress's problem.
But we waste an enormous amount of money
and and I think that that the work that
they've done so far was just really just
the tip of the iceberg.
If you're inclined to look on the bright
side, just the elimination of USID has
essentially defunded so many Democratic
um uh programs that are that are we
we've been funding our own opposition
for, you know, 25, 30, 40 years now. So,
just the elimination of that got a lot
of shenanigans uh and a lot of dirty
money out of politics. But um I was uh I
was expecting a lot more and I and I
still have hope for a lot more uh to
some degree uh because he's so famous
and because he's the richest man in the
world. The amount of heat, you know,
where where people were were were
destroying Teslas and and you just
nobody can take that kind of heat. Um so
I was sorry to see him leave. Uh
and and I think the the vast amount of
work is undone. But I also think that
that the that the blow up that he had
with with uh Donald Trump, which
fortunately did not turn into a you know
a world war. I mean that that that
Donald Trump showed some real restraint
uh by Donald Trump standards and and and
Elon you know said he regretted some of
the things he said. But with with all
that said, um I can understand the
frustration of going in there determined
to to restructure the federal government
uh uh to make it a a a a for-profit
organization, an organization that
actually saves money and pays down debts
rather than continues to add to them.
And when a a bill comes along that
includes all of this extra spending and
make you wonder what the hell you you
know why have you become the most hated
person in the world just so that we can
you know spend this money again. Um
that's got to be completely
heartbreaking. So um so I just think if
I had to give it a grade, I'd probably
give it a C+ and say it it it was a good
start and it showed us what it's capable
of doing. I like to think that the
people that are still there are saving
money under the radar because I think
that's probably the most effective way
to do it. But I I miss um I miss the the
sense that I had during those first six
or seven weeks when it looked like we
were going to actually get a
restructuring of this outofcrol behemoth
that that which is just like a black
hole. it takes in more or more money and
the more money it takes in. The bigger
it gets, the bigger it gets, the more
money it takes in. And and it looked
like looked like somebody was cutting
pieces off of this thing that it was
actually getting smaller. Yeah. So, um I
I I agree with you. I think this needs
to be sold not as a cost-saving issue,
but as a moral issue. I think the
president needs to make the case at some
point if that we don't need a department
of education. We don't need a department
of energy. We don't need a department of
transportation. We don't need these
things. They need to go. They are they
are part of a of a systemic problem.
But until people address the moral issue
and the and the and the ideological
issue, then um we're just going to get
ourselves deeper into debt and and
sooner or later that bill was going to
come due. We we appeared to be on a
trajectory
for a while there where where we were
going to actually start to pay down this
debt. And and a lot of people can say,
well, you know, you're paying down, even
if you pay down something incredibly
minor like $10 billion on a 35 trillion
debt, you paid on $10 billion, you know,
$3,500 billion. It's at least the the
the curve has has changed. At least
you're moving in the right direction.
You know, that's that's that's
confidence. Um, and uh, I I think you
you needed a a figure like Elon Musk
with that fiery sword to to
motivate the base to the point where
where we were excited about the idea
that that that they could fundamentally
change the way that this government does
business. So, they had some success, but
I don't think they did nearly enough.
And um, and I and I like to think that
we might see some more of this in the
future. Well, it's interesting because
even running private companies, Elon
Musk has sometimes run a foul of his own
board of directors. But can you imagine
working for a board of directors
comprised of 535
people, all of whom
idiots?
But even if they weren't idiots, even if
it was just 535 decent individuals who
hope to be reelected or hope to be
elected to higher office, uh that's
that's an uncontrollable set of
variables. In addition to that, when
you're trying to make changes in a form
of government that has u not only, you
know, overgrown, as Bill likes to say,
the box that it came in, um but you've
got to then run up against the court
system. You can't control the court
system. You you have no ability to
decide what a federal judge is going to
rule, what a what a panel of uh district
court is going to rule, what the Supreme
Court is going to rule. So you you know,
you've got those obstacles. I I don't
buy the premise of the headline of the
article of the op-ed in the Washington
Post by the editorial board um that Elon
Musk failed. However, I think we may
have oversold what one man, even him, a
genius at that, uh, who has great
accomplishments already under his belt,
can do in such a constrained time frame.
I am hopeful that as one of my
colleagues suggested the work continues
on a more low-key basis where we don't
have him as a lightning rod um or the
potential for drama between him and the
president of the United States
distracting from the actual purposes.
But um one of the things that I learned
in my brief stint in local governance at
the county level um was that as long as
government uh elected officials are in
charge of anything, their decisions
won't necessarily be made for the good
of the people or for the good of the
organization. They'll be made by a let's
call it a gut feel of what will get them
reelected. And I say a gut feel because
really they don't know what's going to
get them reelected, but they think if I
do this, this will help my re-election
prospects. You don't realize how much
time members of Congress spend just
raising money for their next campaign
and being driven by their leadership uh
the campaign committee leadership to ma
to spend more time raising money for
their next campaign and raising money
for the the campaign committee overall.
Um so there's all kinds of mixed motives
in that. However, I do I do like one of
the things in this editorial. Two of the
things. Number one, it's Congress, not
necessarily waste, fraud, and abuse
that's the major problem here. You can
nibble at the crust if you nail some of
the waste, fraud, and abuse, but to get
the core of it, you have to somehow
reform the process of developing these
omnibus budget bills. You have to reform
the process of what Congress is allowed
to delegate to agencies by giving them,
you know, broad general directives and
then slapping their wrists when they
don't like what they've done. Um, and
you need to somehow
figure out a way to to distance the
federal government from things the
federal government doesn't need to be
involved in. So on the local level, one
of the little projects that we had is we
the county that I was in owned a nursing
home. And apparently
not every county commissioner who gets
elected in says in a public meeting what
I said, which is why does the county own
a nursing home? What business do we
have? Really? Are you wishing for your
most vulnerable, aged, and and disabled
citizens to be in the hands of a bunch
of people who were just trying to get
elected? Is that where they're going to
get their best care? And so, one of the
things that I tried to do was to get us
to at least do an analysis of how well
the nursing home was running compared
with other nursing homes that weren't
controlled by the county. And in the
long term, my objective was to suggest
that maybe we should farm that out.
Maybe we should sell it. Maybe we should
not be in the business of doing that. So
the more things that the government can
get out of the business of doing, not
just firing people within departments,
but to say, "Look, all you people who
were doing this at the federal level, I
want you to disperse across the country.
you're going to have an office in some
existing state building and you'll be
working with the state to coordinate the
dispersal of funds and things that have
to go through there. So, the more you
can get out of the federal government's
hands, I think the more hope you have
because you don't have those 535
board of directors people looming over
your shoulder. Um, I I want more
experiments like what President Trump
did with the Department of Government
Efficiency. I want it to keep going, but
I want a much more long-term strategic
constitutional and structural approach
to it and a lot less headlines because
the objective here isn't just to
generate, you know, campaign enthusiasm
so people will hit your website and send
you money. The objective is to actually
make a difference. For Bill Whittle and
Steven Green, I'm Scott O. Thanks to the
members of bill whittle.com for making
Right Angle possible.