Scott Ott, Bill Whittle and Steven Green Analyze Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency Tenure

[00:01] Why Elon Musk failed. I'm Scott with

[00:04] Bill Whittle and Steven Green. This

[00:05] episode of Right Angle is brought to you

[00:07] by the members at bill whittle.com.

[00:09] Gentlemen, that's the headline over an

[00:11] editorial board op-ed piece in the

[00:14] Washington Post this week talking about

[00:18] the mistakes that Elon Musk made as head

[00:21] of the Department of Government

[00:23] Efficiency during the some 135 days that

[00:26] he was legally allowed to uh be in that

[00:29] employment. And men, I I want to look at

[00:32] this in a different way than the

[00:33] Washington Post did. Uh, first of all,

[00:35] let me say I was surprised at how not

[00:39] crazy the whole thing was. Um, I really

[00:41] expected a a much linear kind of thing

[00:43] and the and I will grant that they

[00:46] didn't consider the positive aspects of

[00:49] what Elon Musk achieved in that role.

[00:52] Uh, but Steven Green, they did they did

[00:55] point out some things which I thought

[00:57] were worth hearing. And I want to put

[00:59] this more in the context of what do you

[01:02] think would happen if a guy like Elon,

[01:04] not that there's anybody like him, uh

[01:07] had had more than 135 days, had the uh

[01:11] the opportunity to devote themselves

[01:13] long-term to the process that it would

[01:16] take to make the federal government more

[01:18] efficient. But there were there were

[01:19] several things they point out and I'm

[01:20] summarizing briefly here, Steve. Uh

[01:23] number one, they said he he tried to

[01:25] change something that he didn't fully

[01:27] understand. Uh number two, while there

[01:31] are many people who have dreamed of what

[01:32] would happen if a good business person

[01:34] got into government, was able to run it

[01:37] according to government principles, one

[01:39] of the things you need to understand

[01:40] when you're running a government agency

[01:41] is there are no market forces that um

[01:45] you have to deal with in business. So

[01:46] there's nobody who's basically trying to

[01:48] kill you every day and you have to

[01:50] survive. Uh they didn't say it that way.

[01:52] I did. Um, number three, uh, he he aired

[01:57] in in just cleaning house as much as he

[02:01] could, but not trying to find ways to

[02:04] support the good government employees

[02:07] who were doing the best they could under

[02:09] the constraints of the circumstances.

[02:11] Um, and the the piece makes the argument

[02:13] that not every government employee is a

[02:17] willing bureaucrat. However, they've

[02:19] learned that if they want to keep their

[02:20] job long-term, they have to spend a lot

[02:22] of time in self-justification

[02:25] behavior in case they wind up in front

[02:27] of some sort of congressional committee

[02:28] or some courts uh where they have to

[02:31] explain what they did. And um so uh

[02:35] Steve,

[02:36] I I kind of agree uh with these elements

[02:40] given the fact that he didn't have much

[02:43] time to work with. uh which I think it

[02:45] would have been better if they said uh

[02:47] Elon we want you here for 135 days and

[02:49] when we want you to staff the government

[02:52] the department of government efficiency

[02:53] for the long haul and we want you to

[02:56] make substantive

[02:58] uh improvements that will have carryover

[03:01] effects not just cleaning house or you

[03:04] know cutting some bit of spending here

[03:06] or bit of spending there. Um Steve if if

[03:10] Elon had a doover in this uh Knowing

[03:14] what he now knows, how do you think he

[03:16] might better approach it? I'm not sure

[03:19] given the the limited time and the

[03:21] limited power and the many obstacles he

[03:25] faced that there he might have been able

[03:27] to tinker at the margins a bit and and

[03:29] do a better job. But overall, um I think

[03:33] he found about as many efficiencies as

[03:35] you're going to find in government

[03:37] because it's government and and and

[03:39] that's not how it works. Give you an

[03:40] example. Um you talk about uh the the

[03:43] lack of market forces. Many many years

[03:44] ago I I knew a guy uh got his masters in

[03:47] business started to work uh just a few

[03:49] months after he got his degree for a big

[03:52] company and he started looking at uh

[03:55] spending practices. And what he noticed

[03:58] was that that during the bad times his

[04:01] company was very focused on on on

[04:03] cutting costs and always did a very good

[04:05] job of it. But during during the boom

[04:07] times, uh, all of that discipline went

[04:10] to hell. And that of course helps

[04:12] precipitate the bad times. And he put

[04:15] together this this this huge

[04:16] presentation with all these facts and

[04:18] figures and and charts and all the stuff

[04:21] you'd expect. And it really blew them

[04:24] away because it was one of those things

[04:25] that everybody felt, but nobody had ever

[04:27] really enumerated

[04:29] or or just plain old proven. And it it

[04:33] set them on a on a great course at at

[04:35] this company because they were able to

[04:37] take proactive measures to take that

[04:40] discipline that they had during the bad

[04:42] times and apply it to the good times as

[04:44] well. And that's how you take a really

[04:46] good company and make it into a really

[04:47] great company. Government incentives

[04:49] don't work that way. If you save money,

[04:51] your budget's going to get cut next year

[04:53] and now you're bad because that's how

[04:56] bureaucracy works. There's the the

[04:58] incentives. they they don't exist and

[05:01] you can't introduce them because that's

[05:05] not how government works. It's its own

[05:07] thing. There are no market forces as you

[05:09] said. Um but I think mostly what what

[05:12] Musk Musk's main energy was what

[05:14] Margaret Thatcher called the ratchet

[05:15] effect, which is when the lefties get

[05:18] something new, whether it's a law or a

[05:20] spending program, whatever, it's like a

[05:21] ratchet. It clicks into place and it

[05:24] stays there until they click the next

[05:25] thing into place. And it's very

[05:26] difficult to get that ratchet to move

[05:29] the other way. It's one of the reasons

[05:30] why if you look at the the long haul,

[05:32] conservatives tend to lose is because of

[05:34] this this damn ratchet effect that they

[05:37] enjoy. And the reason is once you get

[05:39] that program into place, there is a

[05:41] constituency that will be very vocal in

[05:45] defending it. They'll defend it unto

[05:46] death because they love that free money.

[05:49] Everybody loves their free money. Um, in

[05:51] fact, so much so that uh God, if you

[05:53] need another reason to hate Mitch

[05:54] McConnell, I I got one here for you.

[05:57] Back during the Tea Party days, Mitch

[05:59] McConnell was was dismissing all of us,

[06:01] you know, radical people who wanted to

[06:03] put a lid on all this stupid spending.

[06:06] He said, this is Mitch McConnell, you

[06:08] know, Republican senator. He said,

[06:09] "Well, I've never had anybody in come to

[06:11] my office and ask me to cut a program."

[06:14] And my my

[06:17] I got so angry I think I shouted at my

[06:20] computer monitor. I said, "You're a

[06:22] Republican, you dumb son of a

[06:23] It's supposed to be in your blood."

[06:25] Yeah. And and yet no, he's just he's

[06:29] he's doing what the people ask him to do

[06:31] because he wants to keep his job. This

[06:32] is all part of the ratchet effect. That

[06:34] said it was about the left and mostly it

[06:36] is. But it it infests everybody who

[06:39] wants to stay in Washington instead of

[06:42] just go there to do a job like Elon Musk

[06:44] did.

[06:46] Senator, former Senator Pat Tumi wrote

[06:48] much the same thing. He said, "Nobody

[06:50] comes to my office asking me to cut a

[06:53] program." And what he talked about was

[06:55] the difference between the concentration

[06:57] of value to the people who are benefited

[06:59] by a program and the uh the distribution

[07:03] of the cost of that program. So no

[07:06] individual voter sustains a major hit

[07:10] from any individual government program,

[07:13] but some individual vendors and other

[07:15] kinds of special interest people do get

[07:18] a major benefit from those programs. So

[07:20] they'll be at your ear all the time and

[07:23] trying to buy you dinner, but the voter

[07:25] doesn't come in and say, "Hey, I noticed

[07:27] that 75 cents of my uh weekly paycheck

[07:30] is going to this program." because they

[07:32] just don't notice it because the the

[07:34] cost is spread out but the benefit is

[07:36] concentrated uh on a few interests. Uh

[07:39] Bill Whittle, one of the things it's

[07:41] funny because I I read this piece after

[07:44] I took my morning walk today during

[07:47] which I I swear I was actually thinking

[07:50] about this topic of government waste,

[07:53] fraud, and abuse. And we heard a lot

[07:54] about that during the the term of uh Mr.

[07:57] Musk's uh government service. And um

[08:01] what I was thinking at the time was

[08:03] echoed in this editorial board piece in

[08:05] the Washington Post, which is that

[08:07] deficits are not primarily created by

[08:10] waste, fraud, and abuse in government.

[08:12] Deficits are created by Congress.

[08:16] They spend the money that they don't

[08:20] have. It's and and by focusing on waste,

[08:23] fraud, and abuse, which is not a bad

[08:25] thing, and making that the central

[08:27] piece, we miss the big problem, which is

[08:30] we have 535 people out there who think

[08:33] their job is to go home to their

[08:35] constituents and say they brought home

[08:38] um a big slab of pork belly for their

[08:42] people. And uh in in any case, uh I

[08:46] think that if Musk had to do it over

[08:50] again, Bill, I suspect he would take a

[08:53] more structural approach

[08:56] long-term rather than just try to to

[08:59] rack up some wins by saying, "Okay,

[09:01] we're going to drop employees here.

[09:02] We're going to close this department."

[09:04] Those certainly sent a signal, I think,

[09:07] but there was no there was at least so

[09:10] far we haven't heard. Uh there's no

[09:12] follow-up process to say, look, that was

[09:15] just the tip of the iceberg. What we're

[09:17] really trying to do here is free up good

[09:19] employees to do good work to save

[09:21] taxpayers money and perform essential

[09:23] services and make sure that we're not

[09:25] paying people who are not essential to

[09:27] those services. Well, boy, there's a lot

[09:29] there. I was just in DC two weeks ago

[09:31] and I stepped out of the terminal at

[09:33] Reagan and waiting for the Uber and I

[09:35] felt this overwhelming overpowering

[09:37] desire to spend other people's money. It

[09:40] was just uh just more than I could bear

[09:42] almost. So, first of all, Doge is not

[09:45] closed, right? I mean, there there's

[09:47] Okay, so so it's not like the it's not

[09:51] like we had 135 days of this and and

[09:53] then it's it's over. he did in fact um

[09:56] staff it and and it and its work

[09:59] continues to go on and and and so on. Uh

[10:01] I am a little not just a little

[10:04] disappointed I there there was a period

[10:06] there for several weeks where where Elon

[10:09] just looked like Archangel Michael with

[10:11] a fiery sword and was just going to come

[10:13] down just eliminated USA ID. um

[10:17] Department of Education looked like it

[10:19] was going to disappear and and people

[10:21] like me were saying, "Boy, wait till he

[10:22] gets to the defense department or wait

[10:23] till he gets to, you know, um the all of

[10:26] the social programs that we have and and

[10:28] all of the fraud and and waste there,

[10:30] too." So, yes, you're right. The the

[10:32] problem is we spend more money than we

[10:33] take in, and that is Congress's problem.

[10:35] But we waste an enormous amount of money

[10:38] and and I think that that the work that

[10:41] they've done so far was just really just

[10:43] the tip of the iceberg.

[10:45] If you're inclined to look on the bright

[10:47] side, just the elimination of USID has

[10:49] essentially defunded so many Democratic

[10:53] um uh programs that are that are we

[10:55] we've been funding our own opposition

[10:56] for, you know, 25, 30, 40 years now. So,

[11:00] just the elimination of that got a lot

[11:02] of shenanigans uh and a lot of dirty

[11:05] money out of politics. But um I was uh I

[11:09] was expecting a lot more and I and I

[11:11] still have hope for a lot more uh to

[11:13] some degree uh because he's so famous

[11:15] and because he's the richest man in the

[11:17] world. The amount of heat, you know,

[11:18] where where people were were were

[11:20] destroying Teslas and and you just

[11:22] nobody can take that kind of heat. Um so

[11:24] I was sorry to see him leave. Uh

[11:28] and and I think the the vast amount of

[11:30] work is undone. But I also think that

[11:33] that the that the blow up that he had

[11:35] with with uh Donald Trump, which

[11:37] fortunately did not turn into a you know

[11:40] a world war. I mean that that that

[11:42] Donald Trump showed some real restraint

[11:44] uh by Donald Trump standards and and and

[11:46] Elon you know said he regretted some of

[11:48] the things he said. But with with all

[11:50] that said, um I can understand the

[11:54] frustration of going in there determined

[11:56] to to restructure the federal government

[11:59] uh uh to make it a a a a for-profit

[12:04] organization, an organization that

[12:07] actually saves money and pays down debts

[12:08] rather than continues to add to them.

[12:11] And when a a bill comes along that

[12:13] includes all of this extra spending and

[12:14] make you wonder what the hell you you

[12:16] know why have you become the most hated

[12:18] person in the world just so that we can

[12:20] you know spend this money again. Um

[12:23] that's got to be completely

[12:24] heartbreaking. So um so I just think if

[12:27] I had to give it a grade, I'd probably

[12:28] give it a C+ and say it it it was a good

[12:32] start and it showed us what it's capable

[12:34] of doing. I like to think that the

[12:36] people that are still there are saving

[12:38] money under the radar because I think

[12:39] that's probably the most effective way

[12:41] to do it. But I I miss um I miss the the

[12:47] sense that I had during those first six

[12:50] or seven weeks when it looked like we

[12:53] were going to actually get a

[12:56] restructuring of this outofcrol behemoth

[12:58] that that which is just like a black

[13:01] hole. it takes in more or more money and

[13:04] the more money it takes in. The bigger

[13:05] it gets, the bigger it gets, the more

[13:06] money it takes in. And and it looked

[13:08] like looked like somebody was cutting

[13:10] pieces off of this thing that it was

[13:11] actually getting smaller. Yeah. So, um I

[13:15] I I agree with you. I think this needs

[13:18] to be sold not as a cost-saving issue,

[13:20] but as a moral issue. I think the

[13:21] president needs to make the case at some

[13:23] point if that we don't need a department

[13:26] of education. We don't need a department

[13:28] of energy. We don't need a department of

[13:30] transportation. We don't need these

[13:32] things. They need to go. They are they

[13:34] are part of a of a systemic problem.

[13:38] But until people address the moral issue

[13:40] and the and the and the ideological

[13:43] issue, then um we're just going to get

[13:45] ourselves deeper into debt and and

[13:47] sooner or later that bill was going to

[13:49] come due. We we appeared to be on a

[13:50] trajectory

[13:52] for a while there where where we were

[13:54] going to actually start to pay down this

[13:56] debt. And and a lot of people can say,

[13:58] well, you know, you're paying down, even

[14:00] if you pay down something incredibly

[14:02] minor like $10 billion on a 35 trillion

[14:06] debt, you paid on $10 billion, you know,

[14:09] $3,500 billion. It's at least the the

[14:12] the curve has has changed. At least

[14:14] you're moving in the right direction.

[14:16] You know, that's that's that's

[14:17] confidence. Um, and uh, I I think you

[14:22] you needed a a figure like Elon Musk

[14:26] with that fiery sword to to

[14:30] motivate the base to the point where

[14:32] where we were excited about the idea

[14:34] that that that they could fundamentally

[14:36] change the way that this government does

[14:38] business. So, they had some success, but

[14:40] I don't think they did nearly enough.

[14:42] And um, and I and I like to think that

[14:44] we might see some more of this in the

[14:46] future. Well, it's interesting because

[14:48] even running private companies, Elon

[14:50] Musk has sometimes run a foul of his own

[14:52] board of directors. But can you imagine

[14:54] working for a board of directors

[14:56] comprised of 535

[14:58] people, all of whom

[15:01] idiots?

[15:03] But even if they weren't idiots, even if

[15:05] it was just 535 decent individuals who

[15:09] hope to be reelected or hope to be

[15:11] elected to higher office, uh that's

[15:14] that's an uncontrollable set of

[15:16] variables. In addition to that, when

[15:19] you're trying to make changes in a form

[15:21] of government that has u not only, you

[15:24] know, overgrown, as Bill likes to say,

[15:25] the box that it came in, um but you've

[15:28] got to then run up against the court

[15:30] system. You can't control the court

[15:33] system. You you have no ability to

[15:37] decide what a federal judge is going to

[15:39] rule, what a what a panel of uh district

[15:42] court is going to rule, what the Supreme

[15:43] Court is going to rule. So you you know,

[15:45] you've got those obstacles. I I don't

[15:48] buy the premise of the headline of the

[15:51] article of the op-ed in the Washington

[15:52] Post by the editorial board um that Elon

[15:55] Musk failed. However, I think we may

[15:58] have oversold what one man, even him, a

[16:02] genius at that, uh, who has great

[16:04] accomplishments already under his belt,

[16:06] can do in such a constrained time frame.

[16:09] I am hopeful that as one of my

[16:12] colleagues suggested the work continues

[16:15] on a more low-key basis where we don't

[16:17] have him as a lightning rod um or the

[16:20] potential for drama between him and the

[16:22] president of the United States

[16:24] distracting from the actual purposes.

[16:26] But um one of the things that I learned

[16:29] in my brief stint in local governance at

[16:32] the county level um was that as long as

[16:35] government uh elected officials are in

[16:39] charge of anything, their decisions

[16:41] won't necessarily be made for the good

[16:43] of the people or for the good of the

[16:45] organization. They'll be made by a let's

[16:48] call it a gut feel of what will get them

[16:51] reelected. And I say a gut feel because

[16:54] really they don't know what's going to

[16:56] get them reelected, but they think if I

[16:59] do this, this will help my re-election

[17:00] prospects. You don't realize how much

[17:02] time members of Congress spend just

[17:04] raising money for their next campaign

[17:06] and being driven by their leadership uh

[17:09] the campaign committee leadership to ma

[17:11] to spend more time raising money for

[17:14] their next campaign and raising money

[17:15] for the the campaign committee overall.

[17:18] Um so there's all kinds of mixed motives

[17:21] in that. However, I do I do like one of

[17:23] the things in this editorial. Two of the

[17:25] things. Number one, it's Congress, not

[17:27] necessarily waste, fraud, and abuse

[17:29] that's the major problem here. You can

[17:30] nibble at the crust if you nail some of

[17:32] the waste, fraud, and abuse, but to get

[17:34] the core of it, you have to somehow

[17:36] reform the process of developing these

[17:39] omnibus budget bills. You have to reform

[17:42] the process of what Congress is allowed

[17:43] to delegate to agencies by giving them,

[17:46] you know, broad general directives and

[17:48] then slapping their wrists when they

[17:49] don't like what they've done. Um, and

[17:52] you need to somehow

[17:54] figure out a way to to distance the

[17:57] federal government from things the

[17:58] federal government doesn't need to be

[18:00] involved in. So on the local level, one

[18:02] of the little projects that we had is we

[18:04] the county that I was in owned a nursing

[18:07] home. And apparently

[18:10] not every county commissioner who gets

[18:12] elected in says in a public meeting what

[18:15] I said, which is why does the county own

[18:18] a nursing home? What business do we

[18:21] have? Really? Are you wishing for your

[18:24] most vulnerable, aged, and and disabled

[18:28] citizens to be in the hands of a bunch

[18:31] of people who were just trying to get

[18:32] elected? Is that where they're going to

[18:35] get their best care? And so, one of the

[18:37] things that I tried to do was to get us

[18:39] to at least do an analysis of how well

[18:42] the nursing home was running compared

[18:45] with other nursing homes that weren't

[18:46] controlled by the county. And in the

[18:49] long term, my objective was to suggest

[18:52] that maybe we should farm that out.

[18:55] Maybe we should sell it. Maybe we should

[18:57] not be in the business of doing that. So

[18:59] the more things that the government can

[19:00] get out of the business of doing, not

[19:02] just firing people within departments,

[19:03] but to say, "Look, all you people who

[19:05] were doing this at the federal level, I

[19:08] want you to disperse across the country.

[19:10] you're going to have an office in some

[19:12] existing state building and you'll be

[19:14] working with the state to coordinate the

[19:16] dispersal of funds and things that have

[19:19] to go through there. So, the more you

[19:20] can get out of the federal government's

[19:21] hands, I think the more hope you have

[19:24] because you don't have those 535

[19:27] board of directors people looming over

[19:29] your shoulder. Um, I I want more

[19:33] experiments like what President Trump

[19:34] did with the Department of Government

[19:36] Efficiency. I want it to keep going, but

[19:39] I want a much more long-term strategic

[19:43] constitutional and structural approach

[19:47] to it and a lot less headlines because

[19:51] the objective here isn't just to

[19:53] generate, you know, campaign enthusiasm

[19:56] so people will hit your website and send

[19:57] you money. The objective is to actually

[19:59] make a difference. For Bill Whittle and

[20:01] Steven Green, I'm Scott O. Thanks to the

[20:03] members of bill whittle.com for making

[20:04] Right Angle possible.