Baron Coleman Uncovers Shocking Inconsistencies in Charlie Kirk Case: A Deep Dive into the Evidence

[00:07] [music]

[00:11] Baron, you're the most requested guest I

[00:13] have maybe ever had in my life. I've

[00:16] never seen so many people DM me and

[00:17] comment to have you on. So, thank you

[00:18] for being here.

[00:19] >> I appreciate you having me. I had um I

[00:21] had no idea. I had no idea. You told me

[00:24] that when we talked on the phone and I

[00:25] thought, why? I mean, I think that

[00:27] listen, you have covered this case three

[00:31] to four times a week for hours at a time

[00:33] since, and we're talking about the

[00:34] Charlie Kirk case, obviously, basically

[00:36] since right after September 10th when he

[00:38] was killed. It is obviously a case that

[00:42] to say it's a mess would be putting it

[00:43] lightly. And there have been a lot of

[00:45] narratives put out there that people are

[00:47] right to question. And I think because

[00:50] like in in speaking with people before I

[00:51] was really really familiar with you

[00:53] because of the depth that you have gone

[00:55] into it and looked at it as a litigator

[00:57] which is your background. I think people

[00:59] have a lot of respect for that and

[01:00] they're like hey we've seen so many

[01:02] times before where major cases happen

[01:04] and it's clearly just to swipe it under

[01:06] sweep it under the rug and years later

[01:08] people still talk about it like what the

[01:10] and now we're living through it and

[01:11] people don't want to make that mistake

[01:12] again.

[01:13] >> You're talking about like JFK

[01:14] >> of course that's the number one example

[01:16] but plenty of them. MLK, which is down

[01:18] south by you

[01:20] >> as well, you know.

[01:21] >> Yeah. RFK. Um even even cases people

[01:24] don't think about like Ronald Reagan

[01:25] getting shot.

[01:26] >> Um but probably a cover up.

[01:29] >> Uh really?

[01:30] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[01:31] >> What makes you say that? I don't know as

[01:32] much about that one.

[01:34] >> Uh I'm not prepped to talk about it, but

[01:36] um the

[01:38] Anyway, yeah, it's it's it's [laughter]

[01:40] a cover. I I don't want to get I don't

[01:41] want to get myself in any more trouble

[01:42] than I'm already in.

[01:43] >> Why do you think they do this over and

[01:45] over again throughout history? like even

[01:47] after they not just kill people but

[01:49] cover it up so blatantly in so many of

[01:51] these cases you just mentioned

[01:52] >> because they can they can there's no one

[01:55] to stop them. Um I mean what are we

[01:56] going to do about it? Even if they came

[01:58] out and said, "Yeah, we killed Charlie

[01:59] Kirk. Get over it." What are we going to

[02:00] do about it? I

[02:02] >> mean most people are going to go back to

[02:03] work the next day. They're going to go

[02:05] to their kids' volleyball game. They're

[02:06] going to pay their mortgage. They're

[02:07] going to pay their power bill. They're

[02:08] going to watch the Braves and they're

[02:10] going to wake up the next day and do it

[02:11] again. So why why would they worry about

[02:15] it? There are no consequences. They've

[02:17] proven time and time again they can get

[02:18] away with it. So why bother?

[02:20] >> But have they ever admitted it like with

[02:22] some of the other ones? They've never

[02:24] outright admitted like yes, we did this.

[02:26] >> Well, they like Operation Northwoods,

[02:27] they admitted they were going to do it,

[02:29] blow up an airliner. Um so yeah, I

[02:31] [clears throat] mean they they have

[02:32] admitted things in the past and what

[02:33] nobody rioted over that. Nobody

[02:35] >> tried to overthrow the government.

[02:36] Nobody voted anybody out of office. Life

[02:39] just went on. Everybody woke up the next

[02:40] day and went to work.

[02:42] >> Hey guys, three quick things. Number

[02:43] one, if you haven't subscribed, please

[02:45] subscribe. It's a huge, huge help.

[02:47] Number two, if you'd like to join my

[02:48] Patreon for early uncensored releases of

[02:51] the full episodes, you can join via the

[02:52] link in my description or in the pin

[02:54] comment below. And number three, if

[02:56] you'd like to join my clipping community

[02:57] for a chance to make content from the

[02:59] show and make money, you can join via

[03:00] the Discord link in my description

[03:02] below.

[03:03] Yeah, sometimes I wonder about that

[03:05] because like the Northwoods one is a

[03:07] great example, but [snorts] again it was

[03:09] like they admitted it way later and it

[03:11] was like, oh, we're just planning it

[03:13] out. Whereas it's like think of one

[03:15] where it's not one person. Maybe like

[03:17] 911 and there's a lot of fishy stuff

[03:19] happening there obviously. Let's just

[03:21] say in that world they admitted like oh

[03:22] by the way wasn't what we told you maybe

[03:24] we had something to do with this. I do

[03:26] wonder if you'd be wrong about that and

[03:28] some people really would be out in the

[03:30] streets considering all the other

[03:31] socioeconomic issues that the country is

[03:33] having right now.

[03:34] >> I I just I I I don't believe they would.

[03:37] I I honestly don't believe they would.

[03:39] And it's, you know, take Charlie Kirk

[03:41] for example. You know, we don't know who

[03:43] killed Charlie Kirk, how or why. Um the

[03:46] government's given us a narrative that

[03:47] that it was Tyler Robinson alone on the

[03:49] Los Center rooftop with the 306.

[03:53] And and most people look at that and

[03:54] say, "Hey, that doesn't make any sense.

[03:55] that that that doesn't add up. I was

[03:57] talking to a student from UVU the other

[03:58] day and he's involved in the TPSA

[04:01] chapter and I said, "How many people in

[04:02] that chapter believe that Tyler Robinson

[04:04] did it?" He goes, "Oh, it's probably

[04:05] 8020."

[04:07] >> Which I thought was pretty low. Uh I

[04:09] figured it'd be closer to 100%. TPSA's

[04:11] been leading the charge that Tyler

[04:12] Robinson did it.

[04:13] >> And then I said, "What about the regular

[04:15] students? You just walk around on

[04:16] campus. Have you ever talked to anybody

[04:17] else?" He said, "Yeah, I've talked to a

[04:18] lot of people." And I said, "What do

[04:20] they say?" And he said, "Nobody believes

[04:21] he did it."

[04:22] >> Believes he did it at all.

[04:24] >> Yeah. Nobody believes Tyler Robinson did

[04:25] it. And I asked him why and he gave me

[04:27] reasons why. But but what you know UVU

[04:31] students aren't out riding in the

[04:32] streets. They're not skipping classes.

[04:34] They're not demanding justice. They're

[04:36] just waking up the next day and going to

[04:37] biology.

[04:39] >> So why do you do what you do?

[04:41] >> I'd like to find the answer. I I I think

[04:43] it'd be really interesting to take a

[04:46] case like this that's been crowdsource

[04:48] investigated, run it all the way down to

[04:50] the end and see where it goes. It's It's

[04:52] really never been done in real time

[04:56] >> as far as like a major assassination

[04:58] goes like for for a public figure.

[05:00] >> Yeah. For a public figure. Like you

[05:01] know, you had the Karen Reed case.

[05:02] People talked about it. Last night on my

[05:04] show, I covered Adnan Sayed,

[05:06] >> but that was 22 years later that people

[05:08] ran that down,

[05:09] >> right? That was like one of the original

[05:11] podcasts.

[05:11] >> Yeah. Well, it was one of the original

[05:13] big true crime podcast. Yeah.

[05:16] >> Yeah.

[05:16] >> Yeah. That case was crazy because he was

[05:18] an unknown guy and it showed like I I

[05:21] saw I saw your intro on that I think two

[05:23] nights ago in the live but like you know

[05:25] it was an unknown guy. I remember that

[05:27] case very well to where he was routing

[05:29] away in prison for a long time and then

[05:30] literally just cuz that one lady I

[05:32] forget her name but decided to do that

[05:34] podcast series and like bring it in a

[05:36] conversational way the people it ended

[05:38] up changing the outcome of the case

[05:39] which is pretty crazy to see the power

[05:41] that that had early days of podcasting.

[05:42] >> Yeah. Her name is Sarah Koig. Um, it was

[05:44] a serial podcast and she deserves an

[05:49] award. I mean, she she changed that not

[05:50] just that one kid's life, but she

[05:52] changed the power structure when it

[05:54] comes to podcasting because all of a

[05:56] sudden, average people on the street

[05:57] said, "You know what? I've got a

[05:59] computer. I've got spare time. Um, this

[06:02] case doesn't look right. So, maybe I

[06:03] should should open my computer and start

[06:05] looking at property records and looking

[06:06] at maps and looking at timelines." And,

[06:09] you know, that's that's the last thing

[06:10] you want if you've covered up a crime

[06:12] successfully. The last thing you want is

[06:14] hundreds of thousands of people opening

[06:16] up browsers every day and going, "What

[06:17] can I find today?"

[06:18] >> Yeah. Do you think it's because the the

[06:21] context you were bringing it up

[06:23] obviously was related to like all the

[06:24] [ __ ] people get for looking into the

[06:26] Charlie Kirk thing, but do you think

[06:27] it's also crazy that, you know, a guy is

[06:30] killed extremely publicly who also

[06:32] happen to be wellknown that people just

[06:35] seemingly don't want to actually they

[06:37] want to close their eyes and be like,

[06:38] you know what, he's he's dead. That was

[06:39] horrible. Let's move on. when in reality

[06:41] there could be something way deeper to

[06:43] it.

[06:44] >> If you're asking me, do I think there's

[06:46] an incentive for the average person to

[06:48] look away? I I think there's a huge

[06:50] incentive for the average person to look

[06:51] away. The consequences of Charlie Kirk

[06:53] being killed

[06:55] um well, it's a it's a binary decision.

[06:57] It's a binary choice. You have two

[06:58] choices in this case. You can have um

[07:02] Tyler Robinson alone and if it's not

[07:04] Tyler Robinson alone, it is an it is one

[07:07] of the largest conspiracies to murder

[07:09] someone in the history of the world. Uh

[07:11] it is a multinational conspiracy. It is

[07:13] a multi-organizational conspiracy and it

[07:15] goes to the very top of every

[07:16] organization. It's it's not a situation

[07:18] where you can say, "Well, maybe TPUSA

[07:20] got together and decided to kill Charlie

[07:22] Kirk."

[07:23] >> Well, TP USA can't get the crime scene

[07:24] covered up. TPUSA can't get the uh Utah

[07:27] County Sheriff's Office and the

[07:28] Washington County Sheriff's Office to

[07:30] comm to to commit to a story about when

[07:32] Tyler Robinson turned himself in. TPSA

[07:35] can't get the FBI to um show

[07:38] [clears throat] edited footage in a

[07:40] certain way to make it look like Tyler

[07:41] Robinson did it. [clears throat] TPSA

[07:43] can't get multi- um Tyler Robinson

[07:47] impersonators walking all over campus in

[07:49] maroon shirts. So, it's it's not it's

[07:52] not a situation where any one

[07:54] organization could pull it off. This is

[07:56] a massive organizational uh effort, a

[07:59] massive multi-organizational effort, or

[08:01] it's Tyler Robinson. And so, I think a

[08:03] lot of people look at that and say,

[08:04] "Ugh, I don't want to understand the

[08:06] consequences of that. I don't like the

[08:08] consequences of that. So, therefore,

[08:10] I'll just accept Tyler Robinson did it

[08:12] and I'll move on with life."

[08:14] >> Do you think there's a possibility that

[08:15] he did do it? It's just him.

[08:17] >> Yeah. Yeah, you think that's

[08:18] >> I'm I'm open to the fact that Tyler did

[08:20] it.

[08:21] >> Um probably more than than other people

[08:23] covering it.

[08:24] >> I don't think it's likely. Um I I think

[08:27] starting with the gunshot wound, you

[08:29] have uh very serious issues that I

[08:32] frankly almost refuse to accept. Um

[08:34] injuries that now in the last couple of

[08:36] days have come out that seem entirely

[08:37] inconsistent with the 306 wound to the

[08:39] neck. Um

[08:42] but I'm open to it. I'm I'm open to to

[08:45] being wrong on the nature of those

[08:46] injuries. I'm open to being wrong on the

[08:48] fact that it doesn't look like there's a

[08:50] 3006 on the roof on the video footage we

[08:52] have. But maybe there is. Maybe he was

[08:54] holding it some weird way. What I'm not

[08:56] open to is is people refusing to

[08:59] investigate. People looking the other

[09:01] way. People just accepting what the

[09:03] government says, saying, "Well, the

[09:05] government spoken. Well, the government

[09:06] spoke on 911. The government spoke on

[09:08] JFK. The government spoke on RFK. The

[09:10] government spoke on Martin Luther King.

[09:12] All of those aren't what we were told.

[09:15] And so don't tell me just to accept the

[09:17] government's narrative. If you have a

[09:19] reason to accept Tyler did it, that's

[09:20] fine. So let's examine those reasons.

[09:22] And then they start throwing out

[09:23] reasons. Oh, there's DNA. Oh, there's

[09:25] this. There's that. Okay. Well, I have a

[09:26] problem with each of those issues.

[09:28] >> Mhm.

[09:28] >> And we could take them, you know, I'm

[09:29] sure we'll talk about it.

[09:30] >> No, we're going to do it.

[09:31] >> I [laughter] figured we would. Um,

[09:33] >> it's just a little preview right now.

[09:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but if if if

[09:36] you're going to tell me, oh, these are

[09:37] the reasons. Here are the five stock

[09:39] answer reasons that that I believe Tyler

[09:41] Robinson did it. And then I have a

[09:43] question on each one of those reasons

[09:44] and you say, "Okay, we're done talking

[09:46] about it. Go away. You're evil." That's

[09:48] crazy.

[09:48] >> That's nuts.

[09:49] >> It's crazy.

[09:49] >> Yeah.

[09:50] >> You know, Ridge, they make amazing power

[09:52] banks, luggage, premium everyday gear,

[09:54] and wallets. And this year, for the

[09:56] sixth straight year, Ridge is back with

[09:58] their legendary sweep stakes. And this

[10:00] time, it's bigger than ever. From July

[10:02] 24th through September 8th, two lucky

[10:04] winners will get to choose between a

[10:05] Lamborghini Huracan Stado, a Ford

[10:08] Hennessy Velociraptor, a souped-up Ford

[10:10] Bronco, or $100,000 in cash. Y'all know

[10:13] I'm going with that Lambo if I have the

[10:15] option. But with any of those four, you

[10:17] can't lose. There's only 1500

[10:18] Lamborghini Huracan Dorado that even

[10:20] exists, and Ridge is giving you an offer

[10:22] to own one. It's a naturally aspirated

[10:24] V10 and has 610 horsepower. You imagine

[10:27] driving that thing around? And the

[10:28] Hennessy Velociraptor also has an insane

[10:30] 558 horsepower twin turbo. It's

[10:32] basically an American muscle car built

[10:34] into an all-terrain truck. Finally, the

[10:36] customuilt Bronco is coated in

[10:38] scratchresistant Kevlar armor and riding

[10:40] high on massive 37in off-road tires. The

[10:43] best part of all, you can enter

[10:44] completely free at ridge.com. And if you

[10:47] want to boost your chances, you can earn

[10:49] additional entries by picking up Ridge

[10:51] gear during the sweep stakes. Whether

[10:52] it's a power bank, wallet, luggage, or

[10:55] something else you've had your eye on,

[10:57] you'll earn extra entries with your

[10:58] purchase. You've heard me talk about the

[11:00] Ridge 2.0 wallet before. It's their most

[11:02] refined wallet to date and designed to

[11:04] pair perfectly with their new tracker

[11:05] card. So, are you ready to upgrade your

[11:07] wallet and maybe even your ride? For a

[11:09] limited time only, head to ridge.com,

[11:11] link in my description below, and use

[11:13] code julian dory at checkout for 10% off

[11:15] your order and a chance to win Rididge's

[11:17] biggest sweep stakes ever. No purchase

[11:19] necessary to enter, but every dollar

[11:21] gets you more entries. So once again,

[11:22] that's Ridge.com, link in my description

[11:24] below, and use code julian dury. After

[11:26] you purchase, they're going to ask you

[11:27] where you heard about them. Please

[11:28] support our show and tell them I sent

[11:29] you. I just I mean, I've seen so much

[11:33] [ __ ] that it it's hard to be surprised

[11:35] by things anymore. Especially just even

[11:37] if you looked at the last six years

[11:39] alone, I could go way further than that

[11:41] obviously, but even the last six years

[11:42] alone, it's really hard to be surprised

[11:44] by stuff. But I was telling you this on

[11:46] the phone when they had the fifth day of

[11:48] that preliminary hearing and I guess

[11:51] that was the day where they played the

[11:53] security cameras footage in the

[11:55] courtroom. They didn't release that

[11:56] publicly at the time and all that. We

[11:59] were DEF and I were about to go on air

[12:01] for our weekend episode and about 5

[12:03] minutes before the video of Jack Pobiage

[12:06] talking to the camera saying he just saw

[12:08] the whole thing. I watch Tyler Robinson

[12:10] walk up, line up the trigger, pull the

[12:13] trigger, do the whole bit, saying it

[12:14] with a very straight face, very good

[12:15] acting, Jack, I gotta give you that.

[12:17] But, you know, he goes through this and

[12:18] I've never liked that guy at all. But,

[12:20] De pulled up the video and I'm like,

[12:23] okay, I I mean, there were 200 people or

[12:25] whatever in the courtroom. I don't see I

[12:27] don't see how he'd lie about that, but I

[12:29] don't know. Isn't is an Epstein binders

[12:30] guy. We'll play it. So, we play it on

[12:32] the episode right when we get off the

[12:34] episode. Twitter's like, "No, the

[12:35] prosecu here's a video of the

[12:36] prosecution saying that video doesn't

[12:38] exist. No, that's not what happened.

[12:39] There were other people in the

[12:40] courtroom. Here's what they said they

[12:42] saw." I'm like, "Can we even get any

[12:44] modum of like truth here from [ __ ]

[12:46] anybody at this point?" It's just wild

[12:48] to me that people would be that brazen

[12:49] to do that. Um, it's it's not though. If

[12:52] you're trying to plant the narrative,

[12:54] you have to have co-conspirators

[12:56] planning that narrative for you. It it's

[12:57] interesting to me that Erica chose to

[13:00] take to court with her. You know, she

[13:01] was given, I don't know, 10 seats, 15

[13:03] seats. whatever. She could have taken

[13:06] family. She could have taken friends.

[13:07] She took social media influencers. She

[13:09] took Brandon Tatum and Jack Bobic and

[13:11] Graham Allen and like that's that's how

[13:14] they got in.

[13:15] >> She brought them.

[13:16] >> Yeah. They didn't have to camp out

[13:17] overnight. Everyone else in that

[13:19] courtroom was either media had an

[13:20] allotted media slot. Uh a member of

[13:23] Tyler Robinson's family or had one of

[13:25] their slots, a member of Erica's family

[13:27] or had one of her slots, or they had to

[13:28] camp out overnight. Jack Basobic wasn't

[13:31] camping out overnight. He showed up in a

[13:32] Ferrari.

[13:34] drives Ferrari

[13:36] pays well I guess be a spokesman

[13:39] [snorts]

[13:39] >> I mean you might be able to make a

[13:41] living being a a paid hack I don't know

[13:43] I've never tried it

[13:44] >> here's the difference though in 1964

[13:47] 65 in the years after JFK TV was brand

[13:50] new there was no internet the government

[13:53] just saying shut the [ __ ] up this is

[13:54] what happened there was a lot more of an

[13:57] opportunity to do that now with the

[13:59] power of people having one of these in

[14:01] their hands at all times just to capture

[14:02] everything. The idea that you could walk

[14:04] out of that courtroom and not think that

[14:06] there's going to be a million people

[14:07] [ __ ] a lot more than that as would

[14:09] turn out refuting what you said based on

[14:11] other people who were in there who can

[14:12] have the same power to come out there

[14:13] and say what they saw. That's where I'm

[14:16] I'm like it feels like the Truman Show a

[14:19] little bit.

[14:20] >> Yeah. I think they feel like they have

[14:22] so much money and power behind them that

[14:24] they can just roll over and crush the

[14:26] little guy. Crush the little guy's

[14:28] voice. So, you know, Brandy Webb, Billy

[14:30] Sisleani, they were both in there. Um,

[14:32] those were two of the girls that came

[14:33] out and said, "We just saw a blob." You

[14:36] know, it could have been Bigfoot, it

[14:37] could have been a blob, it could have

[14:38] been a fat ch Chinese guy, it could have

[14:40] been Tyler Robinson. We just don't know.

[14:42] Uh, you can't tell. Um,

[14:46] but but they don't have millions and

[14:49] millions of influencers. They don't I

[14:50] mean millions and millions of followers.

[14:52] They don't have millions and millions of

[14:53] dollars behind them. Um, what TPSA has

[14:56] behind it is the basically the full

[14:58] weight of the federal government right

[14:59] now. They are they are just a another

[15:01] they've become another wing of the

[15:04] government just like Heritage Foundation

[15:05] is. They're just another Heritage

[15:07] Foundation. They're Heritage Foundation

[15:08] 2.0.

[15:09] >> And Charlie Kirk had a mission. It was

[15:11] to take econ economic libertarianism to

[15:14] college students.

[15:15] >> Um Charlie's gone. And that mission is

[15:18] completely gone.

[15:19] >> It's gone.

[15:19] >> It's completely gone. All they're doing

[15:21] now is taking whatever main mainstream

[15:25] mainline Republican talking points exist

[15:27] and they're just pushing it out to the

[15:28] boomer class that's watching Fox News.

[15:30] That's all they're doing. And the

[15:32] question is why why do they even exist?

[15:35] What's the point of an organization

[15:36] that's doing that? We have organizations

[15:38] that do that. We have Fox News. We have

[15:40] Heritage Foundation. Why do we need TPS

[15:41] USA to do the same thing?

[15:43] >> Right. When you talk about them being a

[15:45] wing of the federal government, I think

[15:46] you make a good point. There's a lot of

[15:48] these kind of think tank type places

[15:50] that'll be attached at the hip to the

[15:52] government over time and now in recent

[15:53] years we're able to actually see that.

[15:55] But what about all the people in

[15:57] government within the federal government

[15:59] who are like from the left side of the

[16:02] aisle and don't like this current

[16:03] administration and would have every

[16:05] reason to try to subvert it? Why don't

[16:07] they subvert TPUSA, for example, more

[16:11] given the fact that they don't really

[16:12] have any leg to stand on anymore? I I

[16:14] think you're falling into the trap of of

[16:15] thinking there's two teams and and I

[16:18] don't think there is. Um it's a uni

[16:20] party system. Uh there's a very narrow

[16:23] band of accepted thought

[16:25] >> and as long as you're in that band,

[16:27] they're going to let you say whatever

[16:28] you want. You can't get over here and

[16:30] you can't get over here.

[16:32] >> But you if you're as long as you're in

[16:33] here, we'll we'll play like there's two

[16:34] teams in here. We we'll we'll let you

[16:36] put on different jerseys. We'll let you

[16:37] go out and play games. We'll let you

[16:39] argue over abortion. We'll let you argue

[16:41] over tax cuts. you know, do you want to

[16:42] give a 2% tax cut to millionaires or a

[16:44] 1% tax cut to millionaires? That's your

[16:46] call.

[16:47] >> Um, and you guys can get really down and

[16:49] dirty and you can call each other names,

[16:51] but don't get out here into the populous

[16:53] wings of the left or right. Stay out of

[16:55] that. And that's why because they're on

[17:00] the same team. They're all on the same

[17:01] team.

[17:02] >> I think you're right about that. I do

[17:04] agree. But I gotta ask because you know

[17:07] it they're obviously an organization

[17:09] that was like associated with one

[17:10] candidate getting in there. And I think

[17:12] to add to your point there as well,

[17:14] we've seen that with like Trump coming

[17:16] in, he campaigned on X, Y, and Z and has

[17:19] done A, B, and C instead. And it's kind

[17:21] of proven. It's like if anyone was going

[17:23] to be kind of an outsider, even though

[17:24] he was a billionaire, it was like, all

[17:26] right, that's the guy. And now he's

[17:28] surrounded by people that seem to be

[17:30] prototypical like swamp creatures. And

[17:33] he it's his fault. I mean, it's his

[17:36] fault. He had he had two terms.

[17:38] >> Uh the first term he came in, he

[17:40] basically

[17:42] staffed his entire administration with

[17:44] people who despised him, who hated him,

[17:46] um who were on the team.

[17:48] >> And so all of his uh populist rhetoric

[17:51] was was for not. He wasn't able to

[17:52] implement any of it, if he even wanted

[17:54] to. Um then he gets beaten down, kicked

[17:58] out. Um, Joe Biden comes in, reverses

[18:02] everything he stood for, everything he

[18:03] tried to accomplish, and then Trump runs

[18:06] again. And I was very skeptical uh of

[18:09] Trump running again. Uh, opposed him

[18:11] initially. Finally got

[18:12] >> Why were you skeptical?

[18:14] >> Because he didn't do anything the first

[18:16] time.

[18:17] >> You know, there was no border closure

[18:19] like he promised. There was no turning

[18:20] the government back over to the people

[18:21] like he promised. If you go back and

[18:23] listen to his original inauguration

[18:24] speech, if he would have accomplished

[18:27] that, I would have been the biggest

[18:29] supporter of Trump term two there was.

[18:32] But he didn't accomplish any of it.

[18:33] Instead, he put people, like I said, in

[18:36] the intelligence communities that hate

[18:37] his guts. He put people in the defense

[18:39] department that hate his guts. He put

[18:40] people in his own white house, the chief

[18:41] of staff that hates his guts. Um, and

[18:44] and then he turns around and says, "Ah,

[18:46] the whole system, I can't get anything

[18:47] done." Well, yeah, [laughter] you put

[18:49] these people in here who are causing you

[18:50] to not be able to get anything done. And

[18:52] so, I figured he would do the same thing

[18:53] in the second term. I had no idea he was

[18:56] going to do what he's done so far. Um,

[18:58] what he's done in in Trump 2.0 this

[19:02] second term is the biggest betrayal of

[19:04] campaign promises probably in American

[19:06] history. Uh, I can't think of a single

[19:08] president who has done more to betray

[19:10] the people who voted for him, who put

[19:12] their names on the line for him, who

[19:14] hosted him on their programs, who

[19:15] campaigned for him. uh than Donald Trump

[19:18] uh in this term. I can't think of one.

[19:21] >> I think you're right about that. It's

[19:22] been we've been saying it's like

[19:23] opposite day every day with with the

[19:26] things he'll say. I mean, even some of

[19:27] the lines about the war like, "No, I

[19:29] don't think about the average American

[19:30] at all. I just need Iran to not have a

[19:32] nuke." I mean, roll the tape from like

[19:34] October 2024, he's literally saying like

[19:37] you can just reverse that line like the

[19:39] Eyes Wide Shut song. Like that's what

[19:40] he's saying. And yet he went in and did

[19:43] this stuff. And it it you wonder cuz

[19:46] it's a good point. He surrounded himself

[19:47] with a lot of the wrong people in term

[19:50] one. Then he goes on Joe Rogan right

[19:52] before the election and that was

[19:54] something he actually admitted to. He

[19:56] usually doesn't like admit to any

[19:57] [ __ ] weaknesses, but he's like, I

[19:59] think I hired some of the wrong people,

[20:01] but then comes in and does it again and

[20:03] lets them move his red line

[20:06] on everything. I still there has to be

[20:08] something else there to me. I don't It

[20:10] could be a litany of things, but there

[20:12] has to be something else there. Well, he

[20:13] took a lot of money from people who have

[20:15] have policy preferences that are in

[20:17] direct opposition to what he campaigned

[20:19] on.

[20:19] >> That's true.

[20:20] >> Um, and so that that never helps you

[20:22] accomplish your mission. Um, but no, he

[20:26] went out and hired uh a bunch of flawed

[20:28] individuals and and I'm not sure how to

[20:30] get around this problem. You know, if

[20:32] you're president, I'm not sure how to

[20:33] get around this problem because you've

[20:35] got to survive the Senate confirmation

[20:36] process in order to get some of these

[20:38] really high-end appointments. Mhm.

[20:40] >> And the Senate confirmation process is

[20:42] not going to be kind to someone they

[20:44] can't control. And um you know, you look

[20:48] at u you know, the the intelligence

[20:51] committees,

[20:53] a lot of those people are not going to

[20:56] to be kind to having a um an appointment

[21:01] from somebody who truly is independent

[21:03] and actually cares about the average

[21:04] American. They're just not going to be.

[21:06] So, they're not going to approve that

[21:07] person. Um, I think you see it right

[21:09] now. I hate to hate to mention

[21:11] particular Actually, I'm not going to.

[21:12] Uh, I think you see it right now with uh

[21:15] some appointments that that Trump has

[21:17] wanted to make that have really been

[21:19] pushed back hard on because people in

[21:22] the in the Senate look and say, "We

[21:23] can't control this guy. We're not

[21:24] there's no way we're going to let this

[21:25] guy." So, Trump immediately abandons it

[21:27] and then goes to to one of their people

[21:30] >> and and those people are working against

[21:32] him or they're working against us.

[21:34] They're working against us and they're

[21:35] working against his campaign promise to

[21:37] work for us.

[21:38] >> Yeah. I think an example of one of the

[21:41] people that obviously got a lot of push

[21:43] back back at the beginning was RFK. And

[21:46] I kind of wondered like how that did end

[21:48] up getting through because there was so

[21:50] much opposition,

[21:51] but then you see him come in and it

[21:53] becomes like a very one-dimensional

[21:56] focus, which I I appreciate you looking

[21:57] at food. I'll take something over

[21:59] nothing. I I do want to say that. But

[22:01] like he was going to look at a lot of

[22:03] different things and now he's not. So

[22:04] it's like you kind of box in you're like

[22:06] here's a great white shark

[22:08] >> but he's in a little container. He can't

[22:10] swim in the ocean.

[22:11] >> Yeah. He's not really been able to go

[22:12] after vaccines. He's not really been go

[22:14] able to go after food dyes and food

[22:16] colorings. He's not been able to go

[22:17] after um anything. I mean he is totally

[22:20] boxed in. And he started abandoning that

[22:22] in the confirmation process. So you knew

[22:25] right then whoever was shephering him

[22:27] through the process was saying, "Look,

[22:28] you're not going to get in if you say

[22:29] what you really believe. You're just not

[22:31] going to make it." And so even during

[22:33] the confirmation process, there was a

[22:34] conversation people were having like,

[22:36] "Do you think he's really changed his

[22:37] mind on all this stuff? If he is he just

[22:39] saying this, but he'll get in and

[22:40] actually do the right thing?" No, he's

[22:41] not. Um, and I think he's probably a

[22:45] generally decent person and he he really

[22:49] believes the things he's been saying for

[22:51] the last two or three decades. Um, but

[22:54] you just can't play the game and keep

[22:56] your job.

[22:59] >> Obviously, something like this is not

[23:00] fixed overnight by any stretch. It's

[23:02] kind of a generational thing where we've

[23:03] built up so much decay in the system

[23:05] that has allowed us to get to this point

[23:06] where 90-year-old people can hold office

[23:08] for 60 years and [ __ ] keep getting

[23:10] paid by the same people. But if you

[23:12] could wave a magic wand and fix it over

[23:16] a 20, 30, 40year period, how would you

[23:19] do that?

[23:21] like the money in the system and how

[23:23] candidates could actually then do what

[23:24] they campaign to do. That's how I should

[23:26] ask it.

[23:28] >> So, I gosh, that's I've never been asked

[23:30] that question. Um I I think it starts

[23:33] with the judicial branch. Um I might be

[23:35] biased that way being a lawyer.

[23:38] >> Um but the Supreme Court is beholden to

[23:40] the same factors I was just telling you

[23:42] about with with uh other presidential

[23:44] appointees.

[23:45] >> Uh the difference is they have a

[23:46] lifetime appointment. M

[23:48] >> so that the there's a little less

[23:49] pressure after they get through the

[23:50] system. They can kind of change if they

[23:52] want to. Um but in order to survive and

[23:55] get on the Supreme Court, for example,

[23:56] you have to go through the Senate

[23:58] confirmation process. If you walked up

[24:00] there and you said, "I believe Article 1

[24:02] Section 8 is too broadly interpreted.

[24:04] It's [clears throat] a commerce clause."

[24:06] I think the dormant commerce clause is a

[24:07] joke. It need both of these doctrines

[24:09] need to be completely reversed. We need

[24:11] to take the Constitution back to the

[24:13] bare bones of what it was originally

[24:15] intended to do.

[24:17] excuse me.

[24:19] Um, you wouldn't survive the appointment

[24:21] process. And so I think we maybe need to

[24:24] radically reinterpret what advice and

[24:26] consent means from the Senate in order

[24:28] to allow the president that we elect to

[24:32] to have freer to put the right people in

[24:35] those positions. The president wins.

[24:38] He's the one who campaigns. He's the one

[24:39] who goes to in theory all 50 states.

[24:42] He's the one who uh makes all the

[24:44] campaign promises. We're going to do

[24:45] this. if we're going to do that and then

[24:47] the Senate really gets to decide

[24:50] uh which of those we're even going to

[24:51] entertain, which of those we're even

[24:53] going to allow to be again within that

[24:55] little window we're allowed to play in.

[24:57] >> Uh if we want to broaden that window, it

[24:59] has to start with the court system. Um

[25:01] we, you know, we we tell our our

[25:04] kindergarteners and our fifth graders

[25:05] that we have three branches of

[25:06] government. They're equal and they hold

[25:08] each other accountable. We don't. We

[25:09] have a a tyrannical judicial system that

[25:12] can override anything that the Congress

[25:13] and the president do. They can throw out

[25:15] any law they want for any reason. They

[25:17] can make up stuff on the fly. They can

[25:18] add laws that don't exist. And there's

[25:21] nothing the Congress or the president

[25:23] can do about it.

[25:24] >> They're just completely beholden to the

[25:26] system. And so I think it starts there.

[25:29] Um but but that the fix to Congress I

[25:32] think also could fix the appointments

[25:34] because if you could I mean the fix the

[25:36] the fix to the Supreme Court also could

[25:38] fix the appointments. Advice and consent

[25:40] should not be we're going to drill you.

[25:42] We're going to put you through the

[25:43] Clarence Thomas Robert Bour treatment.

[25:45] We're going to embarrass you. We're

[25:47] going to research everything you've ever

[25:48] done. We're going to turn your life

[25:49] upside down.

[25:50] >> Advice and consent should really be, oh,

[25:53] he's been a lawyer for 30 years. Fine.

[25:54] Put them on. you know, we're just making

[25:56] sure we're not putting the the the dog

[25:58] catcher on the Supreme Court. That

[26:00] that's what it should be. Um, and it's

[26:02] not it's not it's it's it's a radically

[26:05] different process, I think, than the

[26:06] founders intended. And I think it's

[26:08] designed to protect the system, not to

[26:10] protect us.

[26:11] >> When did you reach that conclusion? Was

[26:13] that like during your legal career, or

[26:15] was it even earlier in law school when

[26:16] you were studying how it's set up? So, I

[26:19] had um I had one of the most brilliant

[26:21] people I've ever met was my first

[26:22] amendment teacher my second year of law

[26:25] school. Uh her name was Susan Williams.

[26:27] She's a professor at Indiana. She is

[26:29] absolutely brilliant. We disagreed on

[26:31] every political topic you could imagine.

[26:33] She is a radical leftist. I am a

[26:37] pretty far of of of center right.

[26:40] [laughter]

[26:42] >> He's he's given a little little smile

[26:43] back.

[26:44] >> He's heard me say a lot more than you

[26:45] have. [laughter]

[26:46] Um, but no, I uh I'm I'm pretty I'm

[26:50] pretty far of right. Uh pretty far off

[26:52] center to the right.

[26:53] >> And I was even more so in law school.

[26:55] And um really

[26:56] >> Oh, yeah. I was

[26:58] >> I was I was still young. I was in my

[27:00] early 20s. I was I was

[27:01] libertarian-minded. You know, we don't

[27:04] really need rules and structures and

[27:05] governments and and and most of this

[27:07] stuff should be, you know, I was kind of

[27:08] one of those cut the cut the federal

[27:10] budget by 90%. We'd probably be a lot

[27:12] better. you know, get rid of the Federal

[27:14] Reserve and everything will work itself

[27:15] out.

[27:16] >> Well, there there's an argument with the

[27:17] Federal Reserve. That's certainly

[27:19] >> Well, if sketchy to say the least,

[27:21] >> if if you don't mind a 15 to 20 year

[27:23] economic collapse and reset. [laughter]

[27:24] >> Yeah. Well, that's the problem. Now, we

[27:26] set it up. It's like a [ __ ] time

[27:27] bomb,

[27:28] >> right?

[27:29] >> Um [snorts] but but when you're when

[27:30] you're 23 24, you're not thinking of

[27:32] those things,

[27:32] >> right? Um but but we went through this

[27:35] first amendment class and we get to the

[27:36] very end of the course and we are um and

[27:41] we're diagramming the first amendment.

[27:44] It's just the whole semester is one

[27:46] clause of the constitution just or one

[27:48] one section of the constitution just the

[27:50] first amendment and we're diagramming it

[27:51] and I have this giant two uh double

[27:54] length poster board and I'm writing in

[27:55] little bitty font and I've got the whole

[27:56] thing filled up and there's arrows and

[27:58] there's this and there's that. And so as

[28:01] I'm studying for the final exam, in law

[28:02] school, you just get one grade. You get

[28:03] the final exam, that's it. There's no

[28:05] quizzes. There's no test. They don't

[28:06] care if you show up. It's just what what

[28:08] do you get on this one test? So I wanted

[28:09] to make sure I got it right. So I make

[28:11] office hours with her. I go to my

[28:13] appointment. I I show her my poster

[28:15] board and I say, "What do you think of

[28:16] this? Does this look about right?" And

[28:17] she's looking at it and she goes, "Yeah,

[28:19] you know, I think you'd be fine if you

[28:20] followed that." And I said, "Can I ask

[28:22] you a question?" I said, "The First

[28:24] Amendment is like a couple of sentences.

[28:27] Isn't it kind of ridiculous that we have

[28:28] all of this?

[28:30] >> [laughter]

[28:30] >> and she said the the the Supreme Court

[28:33] doesn't tell us what the Constitution

[28:35] says. The Supreme Court tells us what we

[28:38] as a society today wish it said

[28:42] and it it stuck with me and it it it got

[28:45] me rolling down that road.

[28:47] >> The Supreme Court doesn't or the

[28:49] Constitution first amendment doesn't

[28:51] tell us what to say. It tells us what we

[28:52] as a society interpret it to say.

[28:54] >> So the Supreme Court looks at the

[28:55] Constitution and they say, "Hey, where

[28:57] are we today?" Um, well, today most

[29:00] people kind of kind of favor gay

[29:03] marriage. So, let's read it into the

[29:04] Constitution because we wish they said

[29:06] that.

[29:07] >> Uh, the Constitution doesn't say that a

[29:10] a second grade teacher can't can't

[29:13] silence the political speech of a a

[29:15] second grader, but we kind of wish it

[29:17] said that. So, let's read that into it

[29:19] because we as a society have evolved to

[29:21] a point where where we don't think

[29:22] second grade teachers should be

[29:24] silencing the political speech of second

[29:26] graders. So why don't we go ahead and

[29:28] read that into it? And and they do they

[29:30] do radical uh things to to to bind their

[29:34] decisions on on individuals that frankly

[29:36] are not in the Constitution.

[29:38] And so I remember in law school thinking

[29:40] there's got to be a way

[29:43] or at least it would be better if we

[29:45] could pull back this structure

[29:48] completely get rid of this structure and

[29:50] and just and just go back to the words

[29:54] say what they say. And if the words

[29:56] don't bind the municipal government of

[29:58] Toledo, Ohio, then they don't then the

[30:00] Toledo, Ohio has to figure out a way to

[30:02] either bind themselves or they they

[30:04] won't have a government oversight. They

[30:05] won't have federal government oversight

[30:06] on those certain areas. Uh I mentioned

[30:09] the commerce clause earlier. You know,

[30:10] if you if you grow your own wheat in

[30:13] your own field and you feed your own

[30:15] cows with it, um the federal government

[30:17] can stop you. They can come to you and

[30:19] say, "No, you can't do that."

[30:21] >> They can.

[30:22] >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Supreme Court is

[30:24] that's good law in the Supreme Court.

[30:26] >> Um there's a case right on point on

[30:27] that. Um

[30:28] >> it's a good law.

[30:29] >> Good law means it's it's it's

[30:32] not been reversed.

[30:33] >> Okay. Got it.

[30:34] >> So um yeah, like uh well I don't want to

[30:38] go through specific examples, but there

[30:39] there are a lot of frankly egregious

[30:40] things that this country's done that are

[30:42] considered still good law. Um like the

[30:44] Japanese internment camps, those have

[30:46] never been reversed by the Supreme

[30:48] Court.

[30:48] >> Those were okay by the Supreme Court.

[30:50] And that that's still good law. What did

[30:52] they base that on when they okayed that?

[30:55] So that would have been

[30:55] [cough and clears throat] back in 1942

[30:56] right after Pearl Harbor.

[30:58] >> Yeah, I'm not an expert on the the

[30:59] Koramasu case, but it's it's I know it's

[31:02] not been reversed.

[31:03] >> I know that that right now that we

[31:05] probably wouldn't go that route as a

[31:08] society, but but there's nothing in the

[31:10] law that says you can't.

[31:12] >> Um

[31:13] and and a you know, you

[31:16] that radicalizes a law student, that

[31:18] radicalizes a 22, 23, 24 year old kid.

[31:21] Now, if you're

[31:22] >> It radicalizes you.

[31:23] >> Yeah, it does. It's radicalizing. Like,

[31:25] that's that's the kind of thing that set

[31:27] me on the path to sort of this political

[31:28] activist mindset.

[31:30] >> Uh I didn't really have one prior to

[31:32] that. I wasn't I I listened to a lot of

[31:34] talk radio in college. Like, while

[31:36] everyone else was listening to to the

[31:37] the coolest music out, I was listening

[31:39] to AM radio. [laughter]

[31:41] >> That doesn't surprise me.

[31:42] >> I was kind of that guy. I always wanted

[31:44] to be in talk radio. I used to I used to

[31:46] drive down the street when callers would

[31:47] call in and ask a question. I would turn

[31:49] the radio off and I would answer it as

[31:50] if I was the host. I was practicing.

[31:52] >> So, are you one of those guys? It's

[31:53] like, yeah, we have to honor our

[31:54] commitments to the good people of Iraq,

[31:56] like, you know.

[31:57] >> Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I I bought

[31:58] into all that initially. Um, you know, I

[32:01] remember where I was the night they

[32:03] started bombing uh af Afghanistan and

[32:05] Iraq and uh in response to 911. I was um

[32:10] I bought into the whole thing. You know,

[32:12] it was probably six, seven, eight years

[32:14] down the road after 911 before I started

[32:16] thinking,

[32:17] >> right? [clears throat]

[32:17] >> Something's wrong here.

[32:18] >> I've been micro doing something new

[32:20] lately, and it's not what you think. A

[32:22] lot of people refer to it as nature's

[32:23] wine. The mushroom I'm talking about is

[32:25] Amanita Muscaria. You know, the red one

[32:27] with the white spots that you've seen in

[32:28] every video game and folktale ever. But

[32:30] here's the thing. Unlike psilocybin

[32:32] micro doing, ammonita doesn't push you

[32:34] into a psychedelic headsp space. It's

[32:36] more of a gentle nervous system reset.

[32:37] It calms you down without making you

[32:39] foggy, helps you focus without the

[32:40] jitters, and makes you sleep way deeper

[32:42] without the hangover. A lot of people

[32:43] are using it as an alcohol alternative

[32:45] or a replacement because it gives you

[32:47] that relaxed, warm feeling without the

[32:48] downsides. No paranoia, no next day

[32:50] brain fog, no dependency issues. You can

[32:52] take it in smaller doses throughout the

[32:54] day to lock in on what you're doing and

[32:55] really get into that flow state. I

[32:57] personally like taking it before I go to

[32:58] bed sometimes when I really need to wind

[33:00] down. Helps me get deeper sleep, gives

[33:01] me vivid dreams, and I don't wake up

[33:03] without any hangover, and I'm ready to

[33:04] go the next day. And the brand I trust

[33:06] for this is Amitara. They're the real

[33:08] deal. Clean sourcing, no synthetics, no

[33:10] sketchy additives, and they actually

[33:12] educate people instead of just pushing

[33:13] product. Amitara has 500 milligram

[33:15] capsules and gummies. Beginner friendly,

[33:17] legal, and actually works. So if you

[33:19] want to try Amitura for yourself today,

[33:21] head to www.urara.com/go/julen.

[33:25] That link is in my description below.

[33:26] And use discount code JDP22 at checkout

[33:29] for 22% off your order. Once again,

[33:31] that's www.mitara.com/go/julian.

[33:35] Link in my description below. Use code

[33:37] JDP22. In fairness to you, most people

[33:40] did. Most people did.

[33:41] >> Yeah, but why? I think I, you know, I

[33:45] think at the time I'll refer to what Tim

[33:48] Dylan says on this where he talks about

[33:51] how when things were good enough and

[33:54] everyone could, you know, buy their

[33:56] home, go through life, follow the plan,

[33:59] live decently, have their family, go to

[34:02] college, the whole bit, they were

[34:04] willing to shut their eyes more and take

[34:07] the propaganda and just be like, "Yeah,

[34:09] sounds right."

[34:10] And then once those things started to

[34:12] degrade, and he has a very funny rant

[34:14] about this that's way better explained

[34:15] than me, but like once those things

[34:17] started to degrade, i.e. now you get to

[34:19] the generations we're at now, whether it

[34:21] be Gen Z, millennials, and even Gen X,

[34:23] people started to go, "Wait a [ __ ]

[34:25] minute." And to me, like a a line in the

[34:28] sand is 911. Cuz look at every single

[34:31] There were things that happened in the

[34:32] buildup to that to be clear, but like

[34:34] look at every single thing

[34:35] socioeconomically, culturally that has

[34:36] happened since then.

[34:41] So would you think it was is more of the

[34:43] early 90s when people started waking up

[34:45] before 911 but they were willing to put

[34:47] up with it or do you think it was after

[34:50] 911 four five six years later maybe

[34:53] maybe the housing crisis in 0708 where

[34:55] people were like this this isn't working

[34:56] something's not right here and and what

[34:58] the hell happened in New York

[35:00] >> right so I wasn't alive in the early 90s

[35:02] so I can't really answer that part what

[35:04] I can say is that I do remember like as

[35:08] a young kid on even like on YouTube I

[35:11] think in the early days you'd start to

[35:13] see six seven years later people making

[35:16] documentaries on like this wasn't what

[35:18] we were told and then to your point when

[35:20] the housing crisis happened and people

[35:21] lost their money overnight and

[35:23] everything they got mad and we saw the

[35:25] political ramifications of that you

[35:27] watch Occupy Wall Street and the Tea

[35:28] Party come up at the same time populist

[35:30] hard left hard right whatever you want

[35:31] to say you know they had the same

[35:34] problems they had different solutions

[35:35] but they had the same problems and at

[35:37] that same point people started looking

[35:39] at the narratives they were fed more in

[35:41] my opinion. I'm sure there were people

[35:43] looking before that, but more to where

[35:45] they'd even look at 911 and events like

[35:47] that and be like, "Yeah, there were no

[35:49] WMDs in Iraq. Why do we think it was

[35:51] just a couple planes hitting the

[35:52] buildings?" Yeah.

[35:53] >> You know,

[35:54] >> I I think the no WMDs in Iraq was a a

[35:56] real wakeup call. You mentioned Jack

[35:58] Bobic earlier walking out with with just

[36:01] bold confidence saying, "Oh, I saw it. I

[36:03] saw I saw the gun. I saw his face. I saw

[36:06] the pull the trigger. I saw him kill

[36:07] Charlie Kirk. And then we, you know,

[36:11] when when people realize that he didn't,

[36:13] I mean, it's kind of a wakeup call. We

[36:15] watched [ __ ] Powell with real authority

[36:17] stand up there and explain why he knew

[36:19] there were WMDs and here are the trucks

[36:21] that are carrying it around and here are

[36:22] the facilities and [clears throat]

[36:24] >> here's the intelligence that we have

[36:25] that tells us this is existing and then,

[36:28] you know, 10 years later they go in

[36:29] there like, yeah, they didn't really

[36:30] have anything. Uh, I I do think that was

[36:32] kind of a a radicalizing moment for a

[36:35] lot of people.

[36:36] >> Yeah. And that goes to your point, by

[36:37] the way. It's like that didn't put

[36:38] people in the streets once that was like

[36:40] all but admitted or actually straight up

[36:43] admitted with some documentation as

[36:44] well. Everybody woke up and went to

[36:46] work.

[36:46] >> Yeah.

[36:46] >> And and that's the key. Everybody keeps

[36:48] waking up and go to work.

[36:49] >> Yeah.

[36:50] >> Um I had a conversation with somebody

[36:51] yesterday and we we sort of talked about

[36:53] the same thing

[36:55] >> and um he asked a version of the

[36:57] question you asked, not not really the

[36:58] way you did. Um,

[37:01] but you know, if you're trapped in the

[37:03] debt cycle, you know, you got a mortgage

[37:05] on your house. Um, if you if you don't

[37:07] go to work the next day, you can't pay

[37:09] your mortgage. You get kicked out. Uh,

[37:11] your kids play a couple of sports. If

[37:13] you don't go to work the next day,

[37:14] they've got to come home. They can't

[37:16] they can't do that. Uh, maybe you're in

[37:17] a decent school district and then you

[37:20] don't go to work the next day. You you

[37:22] you're out of that school district and

[37:23] now you're moving somewhere where your

[37:24] kids aren't going to get as good of an

[37:25] education.

[37:27] that that fiscal pressure to remain in

[37:30] compliance is is real. It's very real.

[37:33] And it starts with

[37:35] >> starts with the cost of housing. It

[37:36] starts with the the the monthly mortgage

[37:38] stroke. And as long as you're paying a

[37:40] $2,000 mortgage and and 1,800 of it is

[37:43] going to the bank and 200 is going into

[37:44] to the house. Um you stay trapped in

[37:48] that cycle. You can't get out of it.

[37:50] You're you're you're basically there

[37:51] forever.

[37:52] >> Yeah. Yeah. We've seen that with a few

[37:54] different things in society. But leading

[37:56] up to the

[37:58] to the part where you had this professor

[38:01] in college who had a totally different

[38:02] political set of beliefs, but like the

[38:04] way you were able to look at the first

[38:06] amendment really opened your eyes. You

[38:07] said you were already at that point like

[38:09] really like radical libertarian. What in

[38:11] in your childhood like what made you

[38:14] outside of listening to AM radio in

[38:16] college like was it earlier than that

[38:18] where you're looking at things like the

[38:19] Fed and stuff like that and saying you

[38:21] know what this is all [ __ ] What

[38:23] caused that? No, I don't think it was

[38:24] the Fed. Um,

[38:27] it it was just just a philosophical

[38:31] underpinning that, you know, you look at

[38:34] history, you look at the first people

[38:36] that arrived in America, it was sinker

[38:37] swim.

[38:38] >> Yep.

[38:38] >> Uh, and what it created was the

[38:40] heartiest stock of people that ever

[38:41] lived.

[38:42] >> The hardiest stock of people.

[38:44] >> Yeah. Because in order to get here, I if

[38:47] you were going to show up in America in

[38:48] the 17th century, um your survival rate

[38:51] might be 50% for a year. You might not

[38:55] even survive the trip over here.

[38:57] >> Yeah. High.

[38:58] >> Yeah. And so you had to give up a life

[39:01] of comfort in Europe. Um it might not,

[39:03] you know, not comfort by the way our

[39:05] current standards, but but 17th century

[39:08] comfort. You had to give that up. You

[39:09] had to have some reason to want to do

[39:10] it. uh political freedom, religious

[39:13] freedom, whatever it is. So, your

[39:15] philosophical idea led you to risk your

[39:18] life just to make a voyage that might be

[39:20] a couple of months and then you show up

[39:21] on the shore and there's nothing.

[39:23] There's no safety net. There's no

[39:24] infrastructure. There's no roads,

[39:26] bridges, libraries, um there's no

[39:28] grocery stores. You get a bow and arrow,

[39:31] maybe a gun. Um, you

[39:35] you know, you hunt, you fish, you farm,

[39:37] you you figure out how to make

[39:39] community, you uh go meet some people

[39:41] who have your back when you're sleeping,

[39:42] and you'll have their back when they're

[39:44] sleeping. And and you either you either

[39:47] survive or you don't.

[39:49] >> And so what we ended up with is you took

[39:51] the bravest people of that society

[39:54] >> and then they came over here and only

[39:56] the heartiest of the bravest survived.

[39:59] And so their kids were the kids of the

[40:02] heartiest and bravest people of of at

[40:05] the time was sort of the most advanced

[40:07] society which was was sort of the

[40:08] western European model at the time.

[40:10] >> So you you

[40:12] your first generation, your second,

[40:14] third, fourth generation Americans on

[40:15] into the late 18th century when the

[40:18] revolution happens, those are a

[40:20] different type of people than were left

[40:23] in Europe at the time.

[40:24] >> That's right.

[40:24] >> They absolutely were. It's it's it's

[40:26] indisputable. Even the people who came

[40:28] here not by choice, uh the the the

[40:31] slaves that came over, they might not

[40:33] survive the journey.

[40:35] >> Oh yeah.

[40:35] >> They came over into hellish conditions

[40:37] when they arrived. Um you know, it would

[40:40] have been easy to succumb. It would have

[40:42] been easy to quit, to give up. That

[40:43] meant death. So it would have been easy

[40:45] to die. Uh but they didn't and they

[40:48] survived. And so when they finally

[40:49] gained their freedom, they were the

[40:51] hardiest stock of people. And so the

[40:55] society mixed and mingled and it, you

[40:56] know, obviously had its had its ups and

[40:59] downs along the way. But that was sort

[41:01] of the birth of the American dream. And

[41:03] if you look back at where I was growing

[41:06] up in the mid to late 90s and you you

[41:09] started looking around and thinking, oh

[41:10] my gosh, you know, we we ride it over a

[41:12] 3% tea tax. And and now, you know, you

[41:15] live in California, more than half your

[41:16] paycheck goes to the government. Plus,

[41:18] then you got to pay taxes on everything

[41:19] you purchase. then you got to pay taxes

[41:21] on when you die, you got to pay taxes so

[41:23] that your kids can inherit what you've

[41:24] already been triple taxed on. And it's

[41:26] it's it's that sort of a mindset. Um

[41:30] because the the answer was always if you

[41:32] if you don't have this type of

[41:33] government, someone might suffer. And

[41:36] I'm thinking, yeah, but our whole

[41:38] society was built on the fact that

[41:39] someone might suffer. That was the great

[41:41] grand American experience is that you

[41:43] might suffer. You probably will suffer,

[41:45] but if you're good enough, you're going

[41:46] to make it.

[41:47] >> If you're strong enough, you're going to

[41:48] make it. You might have to catch a few

[41:50] breaks, but you you'll make it. You can

[41:52] you can come here and you can make it.

[41:55] Uh, and by the time I was in high school

[41:57] going into college into law school, the

[41:59] mindset of the country had completely

[42:01] shifted to, you know, let's let's slow

[42:04] everything down for the absolute weakest

[42:05] members of society. I'm not saying the

[42:07] weakest members of society should be

[42:08] cast aside and killed. That's not not

[42:10] the point of the the the story. But

[42:14] but it was it was sacrificing that

[42:16] Americanism is is what I felt like it

[42:19] was. And so it was kind of a

[42:20] >> I was predisposed to be radicalized.

[42:22] Let's say that.

[42:24] >> Now, what made you want to be a lawyer?

[42:27] >> Uh I never wanted to be a lawyer. Um I

[42:30] wasn't sure what [clears throat] I

[42:31] wanted to be. I got out of college and I

[42:33] got a job with the state in the

[42:36] department of revenue, the property tax

[42:37] division. I was basically data injury.

[42:39] >> You were one of them.

[42:40] >> Yeah.

[42:40] >> Coming after it. You have a gun come

[42:42] after us for our taxes?

[42:43] >> No,

[42:45] quite the opposite. I was in a cubicle

[42:47] under a fluorescent light with no

[42:48] windows and a giant building with

[42:50] thousands of employees and every Monday

[42:53] all the um the DMVs would have mailed in

[42:57] all their paperwork and I had to put it

[42:59] into the computer.

[43:00] >> So, let me get this straight. You were

[43:01] radicalized on the fact that they used

[43:03] to ride over 3% taxes and now they're

[43:05] giving up half their paycheck, but then

[43:07] you work under flesh fluorescent lights

[43:09] to find the people who aren't paying

[43:10] that [ __ ] tax.

[43:11] >> Well, it was I was recording car taxes,

[43:13] but Yeah. Yeah. Sort of,

[43:14] >> right?

[43:15] >> Yeah. No, I mean, it's it's it's how

[43:16] easy it is to succumb to the system. I

[43:19] [laughter] Now, to be fair, I to be

[43:20] fair, I worked there seven and a half

[43:22] weeks and I quit. I quit at lunch. I

[43:24] walked out at lunch and I didn't go

[43:25] back.

[43:26] >> Uh, not in protest. I I had gone to my

[43:29] boss and I was I was basically just

[43:31] doing data entry. Um had a college

[43:33] degree and and I was doing data entry

[43:35] and I I went to my boss and I said,

[43:37] "Hey, you know, the internet exists." It

[43:39] was in it was in its nent form for most

[43:41] people. Most people weren't using it all

[43:42] that much. This was 2002.

[43:44] >> Okay.

[43:44] >> Um but I was like, "Hey, we got this

[43:47] thing called the internet. These people

[43:48] are putting their this data into a

[43:51] computer. Why don't we just put a system

[43:53] so that when they put it in on their

[43:54] end, it goes into the system that I'm

[43:56] entering in on on my end and then I

[44:00] don't have to do it. He's like, well

[44:01] then what will you do? And I thought,

[44:04] surely you can find some better use for

[44:06] my talent, my my massive [laughter]

[44:08] talent than punching, you know, numbers

[44:11] on a keypad all day. And uh he said,

[44:14] "Well, let's just let's just we'll think

[44:16] about it.

[44:17] >> Go back to your desk." And I I I went

[44:19] back and I thought, gosh, this isn't

[44:20] this isn't for me. About that time, the

[44:23] department lawyer came by and he noticed

[44:25] I was kind of underworking and he was

[44:27] like, "Hey, will you help me?" I was

[44:28] like, "Sure." [clears throat] And so, he

[44:30] gave me uh a couple of code books and

[44:33] he's like, "I need to look up these code

[44:35] sections and I need you to kind of tell

[44:37] me in these code sections what do you

[44:41] think how it applies to this thing over

[44:42] here and just put a post-it note on

[44:44] there when you find it and then we'll

[44:46] talk about it." I was like, "Okay." It

[44:48] was the best day I'd ever had at work.

[44:50] Any job I'd ever had.

[44:51] >> Why'd you love it?

[44:52] >> It was a puzzle. It was a It I love

[44:55] puzzles. I grew up doing puzzles. Um I

[44:58] like playing puzzle type games. I liked

[45:00] reading the choose your own adventure

[45:02] type novels when I was in fifth grade.

[45:04] Um and it was a puzzle. It was it was a

[45:07] hey this is this is what we have as a

[45:09] soc as a society has decided um how

[45:13] we're going to manage and structure

[45:14] ourselves and these are the these are

[45:16] the words we're going to use and if you

[45:19] can go through and figure it out then

[45:21] you can apply it over here.

[45:23] >> Um and it was it was good. It was

[45:24] intellectual. It was a break from from

[45:26] just punching numbers in. Hey, you know

[45:28] this county had this much this county

[45:30] had this much doo. It was it was it was

[45:33] fun. It for me it was fun. And so I did

[45:36] it at the end of the day. We sat down

[45:37] and talked about it and I just said,

[45:38] "How do you become a lawyer?" And he was

[45:41] like, "Well, you go to law school." I

[45:42] was like, "All right, duly noted." And

[45:44] so I I thought might I don't know, is

[45:46] that like a master's degree? Is it like

[45:48] one extra year of school? I had no idea.

[45:49] I knew nothing about law school. Never

[45:51] even considered it. Uh so I started

[45:53] looking into it and I realized it was a

[45:55] three-year program and it was expensive

[45:57] and it was hard to get into and you had

[45:59] to take a test and it kind of measured

[46:00] your logical thinking capacity and your

[46:03] reading comprehension. And I was like, I

[46:04] don't know, you know, it seems like a

[46:05] hassle. So, I went and talked to my wife

[46:08] about it and um and she was like, you

[46:10] know, if you think you want to try, try.

[46:12] I was like, all right. So, I kind of

[46:14] started looking into it and then a

[46:15] couple of weeks later at work, I just

[46:17] had enough and I left at lunch and I

[46:18] just didn't go back.

[46:20] >> And um

[46:21] >> married though already and now you give

[46:23] up the paycheck and you're going to go

[46:24] to law school.

[46:25] >> Yeah, but I hadn't decided to go to law

[46:26] school yet. I went back and started

[46:27] working at a restaurant as a

[46:29] [clears throat] bus boy. I was just

[46:30] like, I'd rather make $60 tipouts at the

[46:32] end of a shift than walk back into that

[46:33] building. I couldn't do it. I just could

[46:35] not do it again. I couldn't do it

[46:36] another afternoon, much less another

[46:37] day. Um, and I had a friend who was a

[46:39] manager of a restaurant. I was like,

[46:41] give me a job doing anything. He's like,

[46:42] all I got is a bus boy position. I was

[46:44] like, I'll take it.

[46:45] >> You'd be the coolest bus boy of all time

[46:47] today. Imagine like going to a table

[46:49] listening. That Charlie Kirk shit's

[46:50] [ __ ] by [laughter] the way. It's

[46:52] like, give me your plate. But anyway, so

[46:55] I I started looking into it and I signed

[46:56] up for the test and I took it and I did

[46:57] all right and I to I gave my wife a

[47:00] number. I was like, if I get this number

[47:01] on the test, I'm going to go and uh and

[47:03] I got above that. So I I I applied and

[47:06] and got in and went.

[47:08] >> Did you have kids already when you were

[47:10] going to school? All right. So you

[47:11] didn't have kids?

[47:11] >> No, we didn't have our first kid until

[47:14] the May, excuse me, the November after I

[47:16] graduated in May.

[47:17] >> Got it.

[47:18] >> And you kept going.

[47:19] >> Hadn't stopped since.

[47:20] >> Yeah. Very good for procreation over

[47:22] here.

[47:23] >> Yeah, for sure. I' I've I've got eight

[47:24] kids. Uh but we haven't had one in 5

[47:26] years. So the the spot may have been

[47:28] turned off.

[47:28] >> The spot's turned off now. Is that like

[47:30] official or just like accidental?

[47:32] >> Oh, no. It's it's uh we we've taken no

[47:34] active steps to prevent anything.

[47:36] >> Okay.

[47:37] >> Well, we're Catholic at heart.

[47:38] >> All right. Clearly. Clearly. So, you go

[47:40] to law school. You do the three years

[47:42] there. And this is what was interesting.

[47:44] And we had a chance to talk about this

[47:46] on the phone, but I've been talking with

[47:47] some friends this week, some who know

[47:49] you really well and know your story,

[47:50] others who hadn't heard of you and were

[47:52] looking at some of your clips obviously

[47:53] cuz you were going to be coming on the

[47:55] podcast at some point. But where did you

[47:58] start in your legal career? Because

[48:00] where you ended up is pretty wild. But

[48:02] where where did you what type of law did

[48:03] you begin with out of law school?

[48:05] >> So when you're in law school, a lot of

[48:07] people say, I want to go I want to be a

[48:08] criminal defense lawyer. I want to be a

[48:10] mergers and acquisitions lawyer. I want

[48:13] you don't really get a choice. You know,

[48:14] you go and you can you take the job you

[48:16] can get.

[48:17] >> Um and that's if you want the biggest,

[48:19] best, highest paying job you can get.

[48:21] >> And so during your into your second

[48:23] year, you start interviewing for the big

[48:24] jobs. They have onampus interviews. You

[48:27] apply, you do all this stuff.

[48:29] >> And the only jobs I was getting offered

[48:30] were basically carrying briefcase around

[48:33] jobs. They were the the higher paying

[48:35] jobs in the bigger markets. Um, you

[48:37] know, I went to IU, so Cincinnati,

[48:39] Detroit, Indianapolis, Chicago,

[48:41] Midwestern type stuff. And, um, and I

[48:44] [clears throat] didn't want to do that.

[48:45] Like, I wanted to be in a courtroom. I

[48:46] took a lot of trial advocacy classes. I

[48:47] took a lot of public speaking classes in

[48:49] college. Um, I was horrible at public

[48:51] speaking when I first started. Horrible,

[48:53] horrible.

[48:54] >> I was a nervous wreck anytime I had to

[48:56] open my mouth to talk to somebody. And

[48:58] >> look at you now. [clears throat]

[49:00] [laughter]

[49:00] >> Well, I don't have my cough button, so

[49:02] I'm like,

[49:03] >> you have a what the [ __ ] button?

[49:05] I'll hit that every time. Yeah,

[49:06] >> I'll hit that every time I cough.

[49:08] >> There you go. [snorts]

[49:08] >> Um but uh but I wanted to be in a

[49:12] courtroom and so I started applying to

[49:14] sort of smaller firms because I was

[49:16] talking to a professor and they're like,

[49:17] "Look, if you if you go to one of the

[49:19] big firms, you're just going to be

[49:20] carrying a briefcase. You might be

[49:22] reviewing depositions. You're going to

[49:23] be doing a lot of paperwork. You're not

[49:24] going to be in a court for a decade or

[49:26] more. So, um why don't you look at

[49:29] smaller firms? They don't pay as much,

[49:31] but you'll get more experience." And I

[49:33] found a really small firm. had four or

[49:34] five lawyers. Um, but when I

[49:36] interviewed, I told the guy straight up,

[49:38] he's like, "What do you want to get out

[49:38] of this job?" And I was like, "I want to

[49:39] try cases.

[49:40] >> I want to be in a courtroom." He's like,

[49:41] "I can get you a trial in in 12 months."

[49:44] He's like, "We try cases all the time."

[49:45] I was like, "I love it. Let's do it."

[49:48] >> Um, so I was taking depositions, you

[49:49] know, six or eight weeks after I got

[49:51] there. Whoa.

[49:51] >> Um, solo, you know, solo.

[49:54] >> Yeah. Like, that's Mrs. Tanner. This is

[49:57] what she's alleging happened. Review the

[49:59] case. Go take her deposition.

[50:01] >> That's kind of nerve-wrack. Six to eight

[50:02] weeks into doing the job. Yeah. Yeah.

[50:04] >> On the record, that's very

[50:05] nerve-wracking.

[50:06] >> I mean, smaller cases, but yeah. Still,

[50:08] >> and it was it was mostly car wrecks and

[50:09] and little things like that, but uh it

[50:12] was good experience. It was good

[50:13] experience getting in there and figuring

[50:14] out how a case work from the beginning

[50:15] to the end. You know, that you're

[50:17] actually preparing for your closing

[50:18] argument while you're taking your

[50:19] deposition. Everything's building to

[50:21] that closing argument, even though 95%

[50:24] of the cases aren't going to trial.

[50:25] Maybe 99% aren't going to trial. Uh then

[50:28] I tried my first case about nine months

[50:29] after I got there, and I fell in love

[50:31] with it. Like, I was hooked. That's all

[50:32] I wanted to do is play.

[50:33] >> What did you love about it?

[50:35] >> Um, it was theater. It was performance.

[50:37] I was not a theater kid. I didn't watch

[50:39] a lot of movies, but um, something about

[50:41] that struck me. I remember preparing for

[50:44] the the closing argument. Uh, the key to

[50:46] this whole case was this woman is lying

[50:49] about her injuries and we had her on the

[50:51] record lying and we were going to hit

[50:52] her over the head with it and it was not

[50:53] going to look good to the jury and it

[50:54] was going to be fun and so we're

[50:55] building up to that. But then it's time

[50:57] for the closing and the senior partner

[51:00] there is like, "All right, here's what

[51:01] you're going to do." He goes, "When you

[51:03] get your closing done, you're going to

[51:04] lean out over the jury box. You're going

[51:06] to stick those arms wide open." He goes,

[51:08] "And you're going to whisper, "This

[51:10] ain't her first rodeo." He goes, "That's

[51:12] your money line. That's the line that's

[51:15] going to win the jury."

[51:16] >> Write that down.

[51:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've actually

[51:19] used it twice.

[51:19] >> No. No. He's a script writer.

[51:21] >> Oh, is he? Oh, dude. It was This was

[51:23] It's theater. all all especially civil

[51:25] trials, they're just theater.

[51:26] Everything's already known. Both sides

[51:28] have disclosed everything. You're just

[51:29] going in and acting it out for a jury.

[51:31] >> And um and so I did it, man. I was

[51:34] nervous. I I I practiced in the

[51:36] conference room a hundred times. I was

[51:37] like, "They're never going to buy this."

[51:38] He's like, "It doesn't matter." He's

[51:40] like, "You're going to get caught up in

[51:41] the moment. You're going to nail it."

[51:43] And so I went through my whole closing

[51:44] and I had my exhibits and I was this

[51:46] side and this side and check out line 13

[51:48] of her deposition where she lied about

[51:50] it on stand. And then I thought, "All

[51:52] right, here we go." And I leaned out

[51:54] over that jury and I put my arms out

[51:55] just like we'd practiced and I was like,

[51:57] "This ain't her first rodeo." And the

[52:00] jury, you know, the the seats start

[52:01] swinging and their eyes get big and I

[52:03] thought, "My god, I'm hooked." Like, I

[52:04] can't I [laughter]

[52:05] I want to do this every day the rest of

[52:07] my life.

[52:08] >> Can't believe they bought that [ __ ]

[52:10] >> Yeah, we won that case. It was 5

[52:12] minutes. I thought they

[52:13] >> five minutes.

[52:13] >> Yeah, five minute.

[52:14] >> They didn't even get the pizza.

[52:15] >> No, no, no. They didn't even I don't

[52:16] even know how they had time to elect a

[52:18] foreman. We I was in the bathroom like

[52:21] they walked into the jury room.

[52:24] >> Um I actually have that uh jury verdict

[52:26] framed. It's in my office.

[52:27] >> Um it was my very first jury verdict and

[52:29] and it was a defense verdict in our

[52:30] favor and I have it framed.

[52:32] >> But um but I I walked into the bathroom

[52:35] and someone knocked on the door and

[52:36] they're like, "Hey, the jury's back."

[52:37] And I was like, "Oh, they must have a

[52:38] question." You know, cuz it was

[52:39] seriously like 5 minutes. And uh walked

[52:41] in the courtroom and they came filing

[52:43] back in and gave a defense verdict for

[52:45] our for our client. And I thought, "Oh,

[52:47] this is easy. law is easy. [laughter]

[52:50] Why do people act like this is hard?

[52:53] And so I was hooked, man. I I just

[52:55] wanted to try cases. And so I stayed

[52:56] there for I don't know 18 months or so.

[52:59] Uh I was licensed in Alabama at the

[53:01] time. Um I thought I might want to

[53:03] practice in sort of the panhandle of

[53:04] Florida because that was sort of our

[53:05] area. So I went and got a got my license

[53:08] in Florida as well. You had to take the

[53:09] bar again down there. They don't they

[53:10] don't accept reciprocity in Florida. But

[53:13] um so I went and took the bar down

[53:14] there. And after I had a Florida

[53:16] license, I didn't realize this, but

[53:18] around town, word gets around and you

[53:19] become more marketable. Um, so I had

[53:22] other firms kind of calling saying,

[53:24] "Hey, you ever you ever thought about

[53:25] doing this? You ever thought about doing

[53:26] that?"

[53:27] >> Um, and so there was a a guy that was

[53:30] working for a firm that that only had

[53:32] really one client. It was a it was a

[53:34] large bank. And he was like and there I

[53:36] mean they were based in the bank's

[53:37] headquarters and he was like, "You ever

[53:38] thought about doing foreclosures?"

[53:41] >> Foreclosures?

[53:42] >> Yeah. And I was like, "I don't know,

[53:43] man." What year is this?

[53:44] >> This was 2008.

[53:46] >> Hot time for that.

[53:48] >> Well, that's why they were scrambling

[53:49] trying to find more foreclosure lawyers.

[53:52] >> He was like, "Look, we'll give you the

[53:53] whole state of Florida."

[53:54] >> The whole state?

[53:55] >> Yeah. He's like, "Just under your wing.

[53:56] Build the whole department up. Just go.

[53:58] Just figure it out cuz we got a bunch of

[54:00] them and we don't know what to do and

[54:02] better if we handle it than give it to

[54:03] someone else."

[54:03] >> You just foreclosing on Florida men as a

[54:06] job. I'm not jealous of that.

[54:08] >> It So, Florida has judicial foreclosures

[54:10] so everything has to go to court.

[54:11] >> Okay. U and a lot of people knew that in

[54:13] '08 it was becoming very fashionable to

[54:15] fight them and and delay them because

[54:18] you know you're not paying a mortgage

[54:19] during that time.

[54:20] >> Um and so I was there for a while and

[54:22] then that bank folded. That was one of

[54:24] the casualties of the foreclosure

[54:25] crisis.

[54:26] >> Um they were very property heavy in in

[54:28] Nevada and Texas and Georgia which were

[54:30] three of the worst worst hit states.

[54:33] >> And so I saw the inevitable end coming

[54:36] um and left there and thought hey if the

[54:38] Florida license is more valuable I'll

[54:40] just move down there. So, we moved to

[54:41] Boca Raton, Florida, and I got a job at

[54:42] a um a malpractice defense, medical

[54:44] malpractice defense.

[54:45] >> You were a Catholic in Boca Raton?

[54:47] >> I was uh there were a couple of us.

[54:49] >> A needle in the haststack.

[54:52] >> There were a few of us there. Um

[54:54] actually, they had pretty pretty decent

[54:56] Catholic churches there. Uh several. And

[54:59] they had a a Catholic monastery around

[55:01] the corner from where we lived. Um and

[55:03] they had an Opus Day

[55:05] >> uh boy center, the male and female

[55:08] center there. And so they're

[55:09] >> they're the ones that like whip

[55:10] themselves and [ __ ] right?

[55:11] >> Uh yeah, I'm not in it, so I don't know.

[55:13] That's the that's the rumor. Uh but it's

[55:15] usually a sign you've got a pretty

[55:16] conservative Catholic area. Yeah. Um if

[55:19] if they're present.

[55:20] >> And actually went on a retreat there and

[55:22] it was really fascinating. Um

[55:23] >> you can't talk about it though.

[55:24] >> No, you could talk about it. I mean,

[55:26] it's just

[55:27] >> spiritual lessons.

[55:27] >> Again, I'm getting a look like you

[55:29] >> a lot of rest. You don't piss off the

[55:31] security guy. [laughter]

[55:34] He gives me the wrong look and we have

[55:35] to leave. Um but no, it's um it's you

[55:41] know that that was sort of the evolution

[55:42] of my career. It was all sort of on the

[55:44] civil side and while I was doing the

[55:46] medical malpractice defense, we had an

[55:48] HIV case. There was a kind of a long

[55:50] story, but a guy who got in a car wreck

[55:52] and he ended up HIV positive and and he

[55:55] was trying to blame the hospital for

[55:56] giving him tainted blood.

[55:57] >> Well, he he got in a wreck and he got

[55:59] HIV positive after that.

[56:01] >> That's that was his story. Yes.

[56:03] >> Okay.

[56:03] >> Okay. Whether we believe that, I don't

[56:05] know, but that was his story that no

[56:07] risk factors, it had to come from the

[56:09] hospital.

[56:10] >> Um, and so you you when you're doing

[56:13] medical malpractice defense, you have to

[56:14] become an expert in every area that

[56:16] you're working on. So if it's

[56:17] compartment syndrome in the thigh, you

[56:19] are the world's foremost expert in

[56:20] compartment syndrome of the thigh

[56:23] >> for the purposes of that case.

[56:24] >> Solve the puzzle.

[56:25] >> Yeah.

[56:25] >> Yeah. And so I started working on the um

[56:28] that that case, that HIV case, and I

[56:30] learned a ton about HIV testing, about

[56:32] the history of HIV, about HIV itself,

[56:35] what it is, what it isn't, and um start

[56:38] talking to experts to prepare for

[56:40] depositions. And while I'm doing all

[56:43] that, there's a um [clears throat]

[56:46] there's a story, I think it was on MSNBC

[56:47] or Fox News or something, but there was

[56:49] this woman in Central Florida who had um

[56:52] been diagnosed with HIV. She was having

[56:54] sex with a partner, didn't disclose it,

[56:56] and she was facing 30 years in prison

[56:58] >> cuz she gave him HIV.

[57:00] >> Well, he Well, you just assumed that he

[57:02] he actually didn't serial convert. He he

[57:05] was HIV negative, but it doesn't matter.

[57:07] Um, it the crime is having sex without

[57:09] disclosure in Florida. It's a patchwork

[57:12] of crimes across all 50 states, but each

[57:14] state is has a specific statute.

[57:17] >> Um, and and serial conversion is not a

[57:19] part of it in Florida. So, I reached out

[57:22] to his lawyer. I reached out to her

[57:23] lawyer. I figured out who her lawyer

[57:24] was, and I just reached out and said,

[57:25] "Hey, you know, this may sound weird. I

[57:28] do civil work. I don't do criminal work.

[57:29] I don't know if this will even work, but

[57:30] I I have a defense in mind that might

[57:32] actually work for your girl." And he was

[57:33] like, "Tell me about it." So, we we set

[57:35] up a time, sat down for a couple hours,

[57:36] and talked about it. And he was like,

[57:39] "You want to come trial with me?" And I

[57:41] was like, "Sure." So, we we got an

[57:43] expert. We showed up to trial. And the

[57:45] prosecution is looking at they have this

[57:47] open and shut case, right? They have a

[57:48] test in their hand. What what what more

[57:49] do they need? And we show up to trial

[57:52] and they realize they're completely

[57:53] unprepared. And I kind of made an

[57:55] off-handed comment to the prosecutor

[57:56] when she asked, you know, what what what

[57:58] are you going to have an expert do? And

[58:00] I was like, well, we're going to get

[58:01] them in under 702 and we're going to

[58:03] here's where we're headed. Um and

[58:06] instantly they gathered and came back

[58:07] like, we'll cut a deal.

[58:08] >> Wait, what's a 702?

[58:10] >> It's just a declaring someone an expert.

[58:12] >> Okay.

[58:12] >> Um getting them in that, you know, not

[58:14] different from a treating physician.

[58:15] >> Wait, why' they why' they make a deal

[58:17] that easily? Like what were they so

[58:20] afraid of? you

[58:20] >> because our expert was going to

[58:22] challenge the diagnosis and they didn't

[58:24] have anybody there. They didn't even

[58:25] have a records custodian to bring the

[58:27] test in.

[58:28] >> Challenge the diagnosis that she had

[58:30] HIV.

[58:30] >> Yeah.

[58:32] >> So, you didn't you thought it was

[58:34] possible she didn't have it at all?

[58:36] >> I didn't say that.

[58:37] >> Okay. You But you're saying you could

[58:39] argue that in a court of law that that

[58:40] there's a realm of possibility that's

[58:42] reasonable doubt that she didn't have

[58:45] HIV.

[58:46] >> I didn't even say that. I I I felt like

[58:48] we had a defense that could make it

[58:49] impossible for them to prove it

[58:51] >> um or make it very difficult for them to

[58:53] prove it.

[58:54] >> When you were studying HIV before this

[58:56] case came up because you were looking at

[58:58] it in reference to cases you were

[59:00] trying. What as someone who then became

[59:02] an expert on it like what do you think

[59:05] were the most misunderstood

[59:08] publicly accepted points about HIV at

[59:11] the time?

[59:12] I think the the number one misunderstood

[59:14] point that I came across was that it's

[59:16] easy to catch that that if you have sex

[59:19] with somebody a couple of times, you

[59:21] have a very high likelihood of getting

[59:22] it.

[59:23] >> Um the studies don't bear that out.

[59:25] >> They don't.

[59:26] >> No, there there have been there have

[59:27] been studies that have followed

[59:28] discordant couples for years. Uh

[59:31] discordant meaning one's positive, one's

[59:33] negative. Um, some of them had protected

[59:35] sex, some of them had halftime

[59:37] protected, halftime unprotected, some

[59:39] some of them had all protected, uh,

[59:40] unprotected sex. You had straight

[59:42] couples, gay couples,

[59:43] >> years.

[59:45] >> Um, the the statistics on those studies

[59:47] are shocking.

[59:48] >> It is, it is a shockingly difficult

[59:50] thing to sexually contract. Shockingly

[59:53] difficult. And that's probably the most

[59:55] misunderstood component of it. And all

[59:57] of these criminal laws are based on the

[59:58] fact that it's easy to contract. That

[00:01] that it's almost like getting shot with

[00:02] a gun. like your likelihood of dying is

[00:04] pretty high.

[00:05] >> And um and that's probably the most

[00:09] misunderstood part of it.

[00:11] >> So you go down, you try this case, they

[00:13] make a deal. She was facing 30 years.

[00:15] You said they gave her like 5 days

[00:16] probation or something.

[00:17] >> Yeah. So uh the

[00:18] >> hell the deal?

[00:19] >> We were getting ready to pick a jury on

[00:20] a Monday and they were like, "Look,

[00:21] there's a there's an HIV education class

[00:23] on Friday. we will enter into a

[00:26] probation period for her that as soon as

[00:29] she finishes one of those classes, the

[00:31] probation will terminate and um she can

[00:35] go to the class Friday. And so that was

[00:37] it. She got she essentially got 5 days

[00:39] probation.

[00:40] >> They went from 30 years to 5 days

[00:42] probation.

[00:43] >> Yeah. And so that's when I realized,

[00:44] hey, wait a minute, we have something

[00:45] here. Like we we have something we can

[00:47] we can take this and market it

[00:50] >> um and and get criminal clients. But

[00:54] that was to me a down the road thing. I

[00:56] wasn't something I was considering in

[00:57] the moment. And I and I started getting

[00:59] phone calls from people because they

[01:00] they saw the outcome. There were a lot

[01:02] of people facing similar um criminal

[01:05] charges and they were watching these

[01:08] other cases to see what might happen to

[01:09] them, what defenses they might be able

[01:11] to raise. And I started getting phone

[01:12] calls from clients and from lawyers

[01:14] around the country like, "Hey, how did

[01:15] you do this? What what what's the secret

[01:17] sauce? What's the magic?"

[01:20] And so as I would talk to them, it was

[01:22] it was illuminating um to to hear their

[01:25] reaction like this is not something

[01:27] they'd ever considered. This defense was

[01:28] not something that that had ever crossed

[01:30] their mind. They were going to go in

[01:31] there and and argue just a basic uh they

[01:34] didn't have sex or he he had told her

[01:36] and it's he said she said and

[01:38] >> it's doesn't go well for the HIV

[01:40] positive person. Mhm.

[01:42] >> And so, uh, as we started challenging

[01:44] the test, we started having a lot of

[01:46] success initially, but then there were a

[01:48] lot of groups that found out we were

[01:49] doing it. A lot of, uh, HIV interest

[01:51] groups that did not like the fact that

[01:52] we were doing this this defense.

[01:54] >> Why? Um,

[01:57] I I can't get into their head and and

[02:00] know precisely why, but the reasons

[02:02] articulated to me were that it was

[02:04] undermining the confidence of HIV

[02:06] testing, that it was uh allowing bad

[02:09] people to to do bad things um and get

[02:12] away with it.

[02:14] >> Um, that it was challenging the HIV

[02:16] establishment. What I one thing I did

[02:18] not know going into this was the HIV

[02:20] establishment is huge. It is

[02:23] >> HIV establishment. Oh, it's massive.

[02:25] Massive.

[02:26] >> What do you mean? Like

[02:28] >> uh the the number of scientists whose

[02:30] entire jobs

[02:32] >> um rest on the HIV

[02:34] status quo, uh the number of viologists

[02:38] out in the field, the number of of

[02:39] medical doctors, clinics, pharmaceutical

[02:42] companies, uh professors,

[02:45] people in government. you have this

[02:46] entire structure that's designed around

[02:50] HIV, which is a disease that that

[02:53] afflicts relatively few people compared

[02:55] to other diseases that don't have the

[02:56] same type of structure around them.

[02:58] >> You know, on a on a per patient basis,

[03:00] the amount of money spent on HIV versus

[03:02] the amount of money spent on cancer is

[03:05] shocking. It's absolutely shocking.

[03:07] >> A lot higher. Oh, I I don't know the

[03:09] numbers the current numbers off top my

[03:10] head, but let's say it's like $32,000

[03:14] per patient versus like 600.

[03:16] >> Whoa.

[03:17] >> I don't I don't I don't remember the

[03:18] numbers off top of my head, but in terms

[03:19] of research and study and everything

[03:21] else, I mean, it's it's shocking.

[03:24] >> So, it's a similar psychology in your

[03:26] mind to like creating an industry out of

[03:28] stopping homelessness and then you

[03:29] create jobs that are [ __ ] 300k a year

[03:31] that people don't want to stop. So, they

[03:33] have no incentive to stop homelessness

[03:35] and the homeless rate stays the same. Is

[03:37] that what you're saying about HIV

[03:38] effectively with the establishment?

[03:40] >> Close, but yeah.

[03:42] >> Yeah. Wasn't Fouchy was like really

[03:44] involved with the early HI to go there.

[03:47] So,

[03:47] >> he he was he was uh

[03:49] >> we were solving it.

[03:50] >> I I I like to tell people I hated Fouchy

[03:52] a decade before anyone else had heard of

[03:54] him.

[03:54] >> So, you knew all about that like AZT and

[03:56] all that.

[03:57] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. AZT was I don't I'm

[04:00] gonna get in so much trouble. Um,

[04:01] >> [ __ ] it. You're here. You're in Jersey.

[04:03] It's time to get in trouble.

[04:04] >> Yeah. A act killed a lot of people. A

[04:07] lot of people took ACT thinking it was

[04:09] their their lifeline and it just

[04:10] destroyed their immune systems,

[04:11] destroyed their livers, and destroyed

[04:12] their life.

[04:14] >> Um,

[04:14] >> and you found out all this when you were

[04:16] becoming an expert on natural.

[04:18] >> I don't want to say expert. I I don't I

[04:19] I decry that, but

[04:20] >> but very well spoken person on the

[04:22] subject matter.

[04:23] >> I I I became pretty knowledgeable on it.

[04:25] Yes. Um, you know, I read read every

[04:27] textbook I could find on HIV. Talked to

[04:29] every expert I could talk to. uh deposed

[04:32] or cross-examined dozens and dozens of

[04:34] experts on HIV. Um I I never one time

[04:38] met a treating physician who knew

[04:39] anything about HIV at all.

[04:41] >> Really?

[04:41] >> Yeah. None. They they knew nothing. They

[04:43] knew that there there was a test that

[04:44] existed and there were a few drugs they

[04:46] could try. That's all they knew. They

[04:47] knew nothing about it.

[04:49] >> U most of the experts didn't know much

[04:51] about it.

[04:52] >> They knew they knew almost nothing about

[04:54] it. They couldn't describe it. They

[04:55] couldn't describe the means of

[04:56] infection. They can't describe the uh

[04:59] cause of CD4 depletion, for example.

[05:01] Like they they just I'm I'm think what

[05:03] do you guys study all day? What do you

[05:05] do? What do you do to to to to support

[05:08] this 30, 50, 70 billion dollar business?

[05:12] Right?

[05:12] >> You guys don't know anything. Uh I

[05:14] actually went back the other night and

[05:16] read an old deposition I did with uh the

[05:18] top HIV expert in Indiana on a criminal

[05:21] case I was working on in Indiana. And it

[05:23] was this was more than 10 years ago.

[05:26] This may have been 12 years ago. And I

[05:27] went back and and looked at the

[05:29] deposition. I read the whole thing. It

[05:30] was 300 something pages.

[05:32] And I was aruck

[05:36] at how little this woman knew. At one

[05:38] point in the deposition, she says, "I I

[05:39] don't even I maybe I'm not the expert

[05:41] they need. Maybe they need to get

[05:42] someone else." She kept saying, "I'm not

[05:44] a bench scientist. I'm I'm not a do, you

[05:45] know, I'm not a a treating physician. I

[05:47] I don't know. I don't know." I'm like,

[05:48] "What do you do?" So, uh, but yeah, it's

[05:52] this this whole industry is has popped

[05:54] up and it's it's ferocious. It destroys

[05:56] people who challenge it. It absolutely

[05:59] chews them up and spits them out and

[06:00] destroys them.

[06:01] >> You seem to be a guy, and I I mean this

[06:03] as a compliment, you seem to be a guy

[06:05] that when you [snorts] cease anything

[06:08] that doesn't make sense, where an

[06:10] accepted narrative has just been, for

[06:13] lack of a better word, accepted. You

[06:15] want to be the dude to go stick your

[06:16] finger on the coffee and [snorts] hold

[06:18] it there until it [ __ ] starts to

[06:20] burn.

[06:21] >> I'm a populist at heart. Mhm.

[06:24] >> Um I don't [clears throat] like

[06:25] establishment narratives that are

[06:26] accepted without without true

[06:28] understanding.

[06:30] >> Um I think people people should

[06:32] understand what they believe and the

[06:34] establishment narrative should be

[06:36] supported with uh with both fact-based

[06:40] evidence and a logical explanation.

[06:42] >> When you do all I mean you've done how

[06:44] many depositions in your career?

[06:45] Hundreds maybe thousands.

[06:47] >> Not thousands.

[06:48] >> Not thousands.

[06:48] >> Not thousands. Uh more more than 100.

[06:50] >> More than 100.

[06:51] How would you like because again that

[06:53] one was 300 pages so I'm trying to that

[06:55] was probably hours maybe four or five

[06:57] hours

[06:57] >> six or seven hours. Yeah.

[06:58] >> Okay.

[06:59] >> When you go to prepare for these things

[07:01] did you have like a specific

[07:04] psychological way you wanted to work

[07:06] yourself towards questions or did you

[07:08] like to do it a little bit more free

[07:10] flowing knowing that you had a full

[07:11] grasp of the information you were going

[07:13] to be asking them about? [snorts]

[07:14] >> Yeah. I never had notes in front of me

[07:15] because I had a strong enough mastery of

[07:17] the subject that I didn't need the

[07:18] notes. Um, you know, I I ordered every

[07:21] HIV test kit from every manufacturer,

[07:24] uh, memorized the the label. Um, and so

[07:28] the label.

[07:29] >> Yeah. So, it didn't matter what test

[07:31] ultimately the person got, I was aware

[07:34] of of what the test was and what its

[07:36] limitations were. Uh, there's always a

[07:38] limitation section on these test kits.

[07:41] Um, I knew I knew what disclaimers they

[07:44] put in there in terms of all of them.

[07:47] disclaime well I shouldn't say all of

[07:48] them because I haven't looked at them in

[07:49] years but at the time all of them

[07:51] disclaimed the ability to diagnose HIV

[07:54] and that was um always a shock for the

[07:57] treating physician to learn in a

[07:58] deposition

[08:00] that they diagnose somebody based on a

[08:02] piece of paper that disclaimed the

[08:03] ability to diagnose somebody that's

[08:05] [ __ ] nuts man [clears throat] that's

[08:08] [ __ ] sometimes I do think about not

[08:10] to take a shot at the entire lawyer

[08:11] industry it is an important industry but

[08:12] like it's so big that there's so many

[08:14] little things that go into it once you

[08:16] so many people in a room. Like I worked

[08:18] at a bank when I was out of college and

[08:20] I used to joke they just put [ __ ] a

[08:22] thousand lawyers in the room to argue

[08:23] over one line that then they'd legislate

[08:25] across all [ __ ] 40,000 people at the

[08:27] company including people that do nothing

[08:28] that has to do with that line. And

[08:30] sometimes I wonder if you just like took

[08:32] lawyers and made the population 50%

[08:35] overnight if maybe we'd have a little

[08:36] bit more freedom and leeway and

[08:38] efficiency to be able to figure some

[08:39] things out.

[08:41] >> There are rent seeeking lawyers. M

[08:44] rentse seeeking lawyers.

[08:46] >> Yeah, there there are rentse seeeking

[08:48] lawyers. Um it's a known hazard in the

[08:51] community. Um but there are also some of

[08:53] the best people I've ever met are

[08:54] lawyers. Some of the smartest people.

[08:57] >> Um some of the kindest, most giving,

[08:59] most loving people who um sacrifice

[09:03] their own sanity for their clients. And

[09:05] >> it's not all of them. U but it's enough

[09:08] of them that it reflects well on the

[09:10] community. Uh, I'm I'm not a lawyer who

[09:12] badmouths lawyers. Um, there are bad

[09:15] lawyers. There are bad garbage

[09:16] collectors. They're bad accountants.

[09:18] They're bad mechanics. There are bad car

[09:20] dealers. They're bad um everything. Bad

[09:23] podcasters. Uh, but they're also the

[09:26] best people on earth in every one of

[09:28] those professions. And, you know, just

[09:30] because someone deals with a bad one

[09:31] doesn't mean everyone's bad.

[09:33] >> That's right. And I think it's something

[09:35] it's actually a theme that's infected a

[09:37] lot of different industries. The lawyer

[09:38] is the example I'm using right there

[09:39] because you're referring to like

[09:40] disclaimers on medicines that probably

[09:42] got put there by a lawyer. But like

[09:44] every industry in today's society

[09:45] because we are so large of a society and

[09:48] there's so much [ __ ] going on, there is

[09:50] a level of group think that can infect

[09:52] things I think easier than ever before.

[09:56] And it's because there's now all

[09:58] different sectors of opinions. It's no

[10:00] longer like you have one and two. Now

[10:02] you got the internet. So you can have a

[10:03] thousand different groups fighting it

[10:05] out like they're on the last [ __ ]

[10:07] chance power ride right there over one

[10:10] thing.

[10:10] >> And what you have now is uh the

[10:12] population gets involved in the fight.

[10:14] It used to be relegated to the experts

[10:16] and the lawyers and the the business

[10:17] people in that industry. Now it's

[10:20] anybody. I mean you you can go on

[10:22] Facebook or X or or Reddit and any

[10:26] industry has citizen experts that know

[10:28] more than the experts in the industry.

[10:30] It's crazy. That's why I'm always uh

[10:33] just I don't know if it's humorous, it's

[10:35] kind of tragic when people are like,

[10:36] "Oh, he learned on Google. Oh, he's an

[10:38] internet expert." I'm like, the the

[10:41] entire world's knowledge sources there.

[10:43] >> Whatever whatever your experts learned

[10:45] at Harvard, that's also available on the

[10:48] internet for anyone smart enough or or

[10:50] or with with the desire to go look it

[10:54] up,

[10:54] >> right?

[10:54] >> Like, you know, Harvard is no longer a

[10:56] gateway to to being smart. you know, you

[11:00] don't have to go there. Um,

[11:03] the entire world's knowledge base is is

[11:05] at your fingertips. We carry it in our

[11:06] pocket. And um, yeah, there's a lot

[11:09] [clears throat] of crap on the internet.

[11:10] There's a lot of bad bad information on

[11:11] the internet. There's a lot of good

[11:12] stuff on there.

[11:13] >> Oh, sure. Yeah, it's a it's a mix. I

[11:15] think there's something to be said for

[11:16] that as well, cuz I think it cuts both

[11:18] ways, too. I think you'll have expert

[11:21] class who just poo poo everyone's

[11:22] opinion when in fact they may actually

[11:24] be more informed at this point based on

[11:27] accessing the world's full information.

[11:29] And then you'll also have some people

[11:30] sometimes to your point that will use

[11:32] the internet the wrong way and go all

[11:33] the way on things and have complete

[11:35] confirmation bias on every single thing

[11:36] they ever look at such that they think

[11:38] they're an expert and they're really

[11:40] not. But there's got to be some sort of

[11:42] like in this brave new world we got,

[11:43] there's got to be some sort of balance

[11:45] made there to where you know the expert

[11:47] class and the internet class can

[11:49] actually have conversations where

[11:51] they're trying to seek a solution. I

[11:52] think there's no better example right

[11:54] now than like the Charlie Kirk case

[11:55] where you have that which we'll get to

[11:57] in a minute. But before you got to doing

[11:59] what you do now with the full streaming

[12:01] on the case which of course I want to

[12:02] talk about, you did these HIV cases for

[12:05] a lot of years and then there was

[12:06] another type of law you did between

[12:08] then.

[12:08] >> Yeah. So the HIV industry sort of burned

[12:10] itself out, the HIV criminal defense

[12:12] industry because um

[12:16] so there's the 50 states, but there's

[12:17] also the the military side. And the

[12:19] military side we were particularly

[12:20] active in

[12:21] >> the military side.

[12:22] >> Yeah. So the military had a lot of HIV

[12:24] people charged with that crime. Um,

[12:27] >> and we sort of legislated ourselves out

[12:29] of that because uh there was a case that

[12:32] went all the way to the calf, the uh

[12:33] court of appeals for the armed forces

[12:34] that that reversed the armed forces

[12:37] ability to enforce the way they were

[12:39] charging people with HIV.

[12:41] >> Uh, and that sort of instantly overnight

[12:43] dried up most of the HIV cases out of

[12:45] the military. Um, and by that time there

[12:50] was a a group that was led by a

[12:52] professor, I can't remember where he

[12:53] was, out of Massachusetts or

[12:55] Connecticut, somewhere in the Northeast,

[12:57] and he started showing up with his

[12:58] little minions at all of our cases. And

[13:00] he would get the prosecutors prepped for

[13:02] our defense and and help them get in

[13:04] touch with their own experts and all

[13:05] that. Um, he's not a bad guy. He just,

[13:08] you know, he was part of the HIV

[13:10] establishment. He he wanted to see it

[13:12] perpetuated. And um and so it just

[13:15] became time to move on. You know, I I'd

[13:18] done it for four or five years. It was

[13:20] it was plenty fun. Uh it was a lot of

[13:22] travel because these cases last week and

[13:25] we were trying, you know, if you try a

[13:27] case a month even

[13:29] >> um you're gone 2, three, four weeks a

[13:30] month.

[13:31] >> That's hard with a young family, too.

[13:33] >> Yeah. And my fifth kid was born while uh

[13:36] right after I got back from a a trial.

[13:39] And I just thought, you know, this is

[13:41] this isn't right for me. Like, this

[13:43] isn't right for my wife. This isn't

[13:44] right for my kids. I I need to do

[13:46] something else. So, I went into uh

[13:48] broadcasting for a little bit.

[13:50] >> Um opened a consulting shop with a buddy

[13:53] of mine and

[13:55] rounded up some clients and and started

[13:58] a talk radio show and and did that for

[14:00] >> a talk radio show?

[14:01] >> Yeah. News and views from 9:00 to noon.

[14:03] >> We didn't talk about that on the phone.

[14:05] So, you were doing it. Well, cuz you

[14:07] kind of skipped that part. You said I

[14:08] was doing the HIV law and then I went to

[14:10] I I got a I got a general counsel job.

[14:12] Like, you skipped the middle of that.

[14:14] So, you were doing you went back to

[14:16] scratch the itch and you went to the

[14:17] original

[14:18] >> college Baron's love of AM radio.

[14:20] >> I did. I always wanted to try it. I

[14:22] always wanted to try it and

[14:24] >> Well, obviously obviously you're good at

[14:26] it. Well, I had I had an opening in my

[14:28] life and so and I knew somebody that

[14:30] worked at the station and we were

[14:31] talking and he was like, "Look, we've

[14:33] got an open spot from 9 to noon. No

[14:36] one's ever made talk radio in this

[14:37] market work in that time period. So,

[14:39] just understand you'll probably fail. It

[14:41] won't be any good.

[14:42] >> Challenge accepted."

[14:43] >> Um, he said, "We're running Laura Ingram

[14:45] there right now just on a, you know,

[14:47] just grabbing her from satellite, but if

[14:49] you want it, you can have it." And I was

[14:51] like, "Let's do it." Um, and so I

[14:54] started and I was a nervous wreck. My

[14:56] early shows are terrible. I still have

[14:57] them u recorded somewhere and I've gone

[15:00] back and listened to them occasionally.

[15:01] They were awesome.

[15:01] >> We got to find the Baron Files.

[15:03] >> No, you don't. Don't go looking.

[15:04] >> We're digging.

[15:05] >> Don't look. Um

[15:06] >> digging. Amanda, let's get on it. Make a

[15:08] note.

[15:08] >> She'll never find them.

[15:09] >> She'll find them.

[15:10] >> Uh I mean, they're out there. But I uh

[15:12] so I did that for a while. I did that

[15:14] for several years. Um 9 to noon every

[15:16] day. Put a show together in the

[15:18] afternoons and evenings. Got up in the

[15:19] morning. Um went to the station, put my

[15:22] final touches on the notes, and did a

[15:24] show every day. And I was still

[15:25] practicing law in the afternoon, just on

[15:26] a private basis, but not not super busy.

[15:29] >> It was mostly focused on the radio.

[15:31] >> Where were you living at this point?

[15:32] >> Uh, McGomery, Alabama.

[15:34] >> Okay.

[15:34] >> McGomery, Alabama. Um, WACV. It was a it

[15:38] was a it was a fun little job. Um, and

[15:41] um,

[15:43] and then that sort of ran its course. I

[15:45] did that four or five years and I was

[15:46] like, so then I tried another market. I

[15:48] went into over to Auburn and was driving

[15:49] over there every day to do a radio show.

[15:51] Uh, and I was working in-house for a guy

[15:53] and that's kind of where I got the

[15:54] in-house bug.

[15:56] >> I was I was he owned the radio station.

[15:58] He was like, "I can't pay you much on

[15:59] radio, but I've got this in-house

[16:00] position if you want to come by the

[16:02] office for a few hours a day." He was

[16:04] doing commercial real estate. And so I

[16:06] went over to him and then co happened

[16:09] and I was working for him doing a little

[16:12] local radio show in Auburn and that was

[16:14] it was a great show. I thought it was a

[16:15] lot of fun and um but when COVID hit the

[16:19] commercial real estate business just

[16:20] collapsed. Yeah.

[16:21] >> And he was, you know, he probably didn't

[16:23] need to be paying a lawyer to sit in his

[16:25] office every day,

[16:26] >> uh, with the way that was happening. And

[16:29] so I started looking around like, what

[16:30] else can I do? And that's when I, um, I

[16:34] went to work for, um, a defense

[16:36] contractor, but it was like an IT type

[16:38] of job. Uh, buddy of mine was the the

[16:41] manager of operations over there, and he

[16:43] brought me in, and it was uh, it was a

[16:45] lot of fun. I was there for a little

[16:47] while. Um it was kind of a hybrid work

[16:50] from home position particularly during

[16:52] the co era.

[16:53] >> Certainly no like trial law at this

[16:55] point specific

[16:57] >> paperwork looking at deals um finding

[17:00] deals uh bidding on deals you know it it

[17:03] was just a lot of fun. It was it was it

[17:05] opened my eyes to the the world of

[17:06] government contracting that I didn't

[17:07] know existed. And so I did that for a

[17:10] little while and I ran into a buddy of

[17:12] mine at a a high school football game

[17:14] and they were hiring a lawyer at a

[17:16] healthcare data analytics firm and uh

[17:19] seemed like cool opportunity. I really

[17:21] liked him. I had a lot of respect for

[17:22] him and always had I'd known him since

[17:24] high school. Known of him since high

[17:26] school and so um

[17:30] I went to work for him and um stayed

[17:33] there for four or five years and then

[17:35] that sort of ran its course. Uh, no, but

[17:38] then that's when I started doing the

[17:39] podcast um and on on the Charlie Kirk

[17:42] stuff and it started taking off a little

[17:43] bit.

[17:44] >> You had said you were doing a little bit

[17:45] of the podcast like on the side doing

[17:47] other things and then this happened and

[17:49] you kind of went full boore into that.

[17:51] >> Yeah.

[17:52] >> Where were you on September 10th when

[17:54] Charlie was coming?

[17:54] >> I was sitting at my desk where I podcast

[17:56] every day. I was sitting at that desk.

[17:58] Um, I was uh working uh for the

[18:02] healthcare data analytics company, but I

[18:04] was working from home that day and uh

[18:06] got a call from a buddy of mine who's a

[18:08] longtime political operator and he was

[18:11] like, you know, Charlie Kirk got shot. I

[18:12] was like, what? He was like, dude, yeah.

[18:16] And I thought, no. So, I jumped on the

[18:19] internet. Like, all I could see was the

[18:20] headlines at the time because it was too

[18:22] early. The videos hadn't started coming

[18:23] out. The pictures weren't coming out.

[18:24] >> So, you were right on it.

[18:26] >> Yeah, it was it was pretty quick. I

[18:27] mean, I I don't want to say a m to the

[18:29] minute how many minutes it was, but it

[18:31] was pretty quick. It was before the

[18:32] videos and the the pictures started

[18:33] dropping. And then the first video that

[18:36] dropped was that kind of distant video

[18:38] and it looked like he got shot in the

[18:39] chest cuz his shirt jumped and I and we

[18:42] were still on the phone. I was like,

[18:43] "Man, it looked like he got shot in the

[18:44] chest." He was like, "Yeah, I don't

[18:46] know." He's like, "I just heard he got

[18:47] shot and he may not make it." I was

[18:48] like, "What? How?" Like, you know, maybe

[18:51] it winged him on the shoulder kind of,

[18:52] you know, you could see the shirt jump

[18:53] on the side. And I kept rewinding it and

[18:55] looking. And I was like, "Dude, I'm

[18:55] telling you, it look like I hit him in

[18:56] the chest. You know, he might be all

[18:58] right." And so we were guessing, you

[19:01] know, what kind of person would do it?

[19:02] Would it be a radical leftist? Would it

[19:04] be some, you know, uh uh person who's

[19:07] opposed to the bombing of Iran in in

[19:09] June? You know, what who who could it

[19:12] be?

[19:13] >> And while we're doing that, then the

[19:14] uplose video got released and I came

[19:17] across that and I just I I just gasped

[19:19] in horror.

[19:19] >> Yeah.

[19:20] >> And he was like, "What?" And I said,

[19:21] "Don't watch it."

[19:23] >> And I actually talked to him about a

[19:24] month ago. He said he's never watched

[19:25] it. Um, someone who knew Charlie um and

[19:28] and had, you know, been around the block

[19:31] a long time. And I was like, "Don't

[19:33] watch it." I was like, "It's so

[19:34] ghastly." He was like, "Describe it." I

[19:37] was like, "His neck exploded." He was

[19:39] like, "How?" I said, "Look like got shot

[19:42] in the neck." I was like, "I don't

[19:43] know." I said, "But I said, I've never

[19:45] seen that much blood come out of a small

[19:46] a small spot in one in one time in my

[19:48] life. I didn't know it was possible."

[19:50] He's like, "Was it like squirting?" I

[19:51] was like, "No, it was like someone

[19:52] opened the bottom of a gallon jug and it

[19:54] just fell out of the side of his neck."

[19:55] >> Yeah.

[19:56] >> And um and so we stayed on the phone for

[19:59] a while and I kept looking up

[20:00] information and I think we were still on

[20:03] the phone when he was when the rumors

[20:05] first started breaking about an hour

[20:07] later that he had died. Um

[20:09] >> I mean once you saw it, didn't you once

[20:11] you saw that video, didn't you think it

[20:13] was

[20:13] >> Yeah, I kept telling him that I didn't

[20:14] think it was possible that he lived.

[20:16] >> You know, I I I just said, "I don't see

[20:17] how you live after after that. Even if

[20:20] it's just from blood, even if it's not

[20:21] from trauma, just from blood loss

[20:22] itself, right? That was so much blood.

[20:25] Um, that's [clears throat] where I was.

[20:27] I was sitting at that desk, uh, looking

[20:29] at a monitor in the position where my

[20:30] camera is now.

[20:32] >> Monitor's moved over since, but yeah.

[20:35] >> Now, were you thinking anything at the

[20:37] time or was it just pretty much like all

[20:39] of us were just shocked that this

[20:40] happened?

[20:42] >> When I say thinking anything at the

[20:43] time, were you already wondering like,

[20:45] "Oh, what the fuck?"

[20:47] >> No, I wasn't skeptical yet. Um,

[20:51] my major thought was the security of

[20:54] people I knew who who kind of not not as

[20:58] public obviously as Charlie, but people

[20:59] who who did the the podcast circuit, the

[21:01] speech circuit, you know, who who were

[21:04] out in public, who were at rallies, like

[21:06] this is the guy I was talking to was one

[21:08] of those type of people. And I just

[21:09] said, you know, don't I wouldn't go in

[21:11] public for a while.

[21:12] >> He's like, I'm not. And he was talking

[21:14] to other people at the same time by

[21:15] text. And he was like, everybody's

[21:16] saying everybody's locking down.

[21:18] nobody's going anywhere right now until

[21:19] we figure out what's going on.

[21:21] And um [clears throat]

[21:23] I think that was the natural reaction

[21:25] was just fear. It was just a fear of

[21:27] what? What the hell? Like this is really

[21:29] brazen.

[21:31] Yeah. The idea that

[21:34] you know, especially in America, someone

[21:36] would ever be killed by anyone

[21:39] regardless of who

[21:42] actually ended up doing it or was behind

[21:44] it and whatever. The idea that someone

[21:46] would be killed on the basis of their

[21:47] political beliefs, which unfortunately

[21:49] has happened many times before is just

[21:52] it it's still insane to me. It's insane

[21:54] to me that in in this case in 2025,

[21:57] something like that could happen. It

[21:59] could happen so publicly. It could

[22:00] happen where there's thousands of people

[22:01] right there in the iPhone era where

[22:03] everyone's got their camera out and you

[22:06] know people are going to be able to see

[22:07] this forever. You think about that guy

[22:08] he had Charlie Kirk had kids. they're

[22:11] gonna grow up one day and chances are

[22:13] they're gonna see that video. And it's

[22:15] like that still doesn't register for me

[22:18] that that's like a thing today.

[22:21] >> Yeah. Speaking of that, I mean, it was

[22:23] it was odd that there was so little

[22:25] footage that came out.

[22:26] >> Um, you I think thousands of college

[22:28] students gathered anywhere.

[22:30] >> People four angles, four

[22:32] >> something. I mean, it was just maybe six

[22:33] total, I think, that have been released.

[22:35] Maybe only four.

[22:36] >> Um,

[22:36] >> not including the back camera. I'm

[22:38] talking about just iPhones, I want to

[22:39] say.

[22:39] >> Yeah, I think. They have four, five, six

[22:41] cameras at most. Um, including the the

[22:43] UVU review camera angle where they the

[22:45] school itself was filming,

[22:48] but it's

[22:50] it it was just a shocking

[22:53] moment. Um, I was not the biggest

[22:56] Charlie Kirk fan. Uh, I wouldn't say I

[22:58] was opposed to Charlie. I never spoke

[23:00] out against him. I didn't like have a

[23:02] visceral reaction to hearing his name,

[23:04] but I I always thought he was was was on

[23:07] the team, you know what I mean? like in

[23:08] the middle on the uni party.

[23:11] >> He he had started kind of speaking up on

[23:13] the Israel issue a little bit towards

[23:15] the end of his end of his life, but

[23:17] prior to that, I mean, he was he was

[23:20] just sort of a water carrier for

[23:21] whatever mainstream Republican uh

[23:23] thought was at the time. And that's

[23:26] that's not really my brand of politics.

[23:29] And so I I I always sort of viewed him

[23:31] that way. I [clears throat] also had a

[23:33] friend one time tell me, this was before

[23:35] he died,

[23:36] how much money they thought he was

[23:38] making. And I was just shocked. Like it

[23:39] it floored me when I heard the figures

[23:42] that were coming out. Um that he was

[23:45] saying and he

[23:46] >> Are you able to say that? Like what he

[23:48] was estimating?

[23:49] >> Yeah. I mean, he was saying 25 to 50

[23:51] million a year he thought he was pulling

[23:52] in. Uh which which he asked me, "What do

[23:55] you think he's making?" Because he had

[23:56] just heard somebody that supposedly

[23:57] knew. Um and this was probably 6 months

[23:59] before he died. And uh I said, "I don't

[24:02] know. I bet he's making two to five

[24:03] million." He's like, "I think it's like

[24:04] 25 to 50." And I was like, "What? How?"

[24:07] I was like, "How?" He was like, "How,

[24:09] deaf?"

[24:10] >> Yeah.

[24:11] >> What [laughter] are we doing wrong?

[24:13] >> He's like, "He's got the podcast. He's

[24:14] got his salary from the place. He does

[24:17] real estate deals. He's involved in

[24:19] private equity. He's a bestselling

[24:20] author." He's like, "Man, all that money

[24:22] adds up."

[24:22] >> Yeah. He's got a few other lines of

[24:24] income. Didn't think of that.

[24:25] >> Yeah. He wasn't all in on one one line.

[24:28] He's a sharp guy. He was a sharp guy for

[24:30] sure.

[24:30] >> He was a very sharp guy. Um, even those

[24:33] who disagreed with him, like I disagreed

[24:34] with him on a lot of issues,

[24:36] >> never one time felt like he was a

[24:38] dishonest actor um or like a sellout or

[24:41] a bad guy necessarily. Maybe a sellout a

[24:43] little bit, but not a bad person. Like I

[24:46] never thought he was

[24:47] >> secretly in the mob out killing people,

[24:49] you know? I just I just thought,

[24:51] >> you know, this is a guy who figured out

[24:53] how to play politics at a very high

[24:54] level on a team that I'm not on. Mhm.

[24:57] >> Um, and so that was kind of my my

[24:59] thought on Charlie.

[25:01] But, you know, as we were as we were

[25:03] talking about it, the the fear was sort

[25:05] of the overriding

[25:07] um thing in the moment was just a a

[25:09] really terrifying situation that that a

[25:12] guy could really just get shot in the

[25:14] neck. We were actually talking about, do

[25:16] you think it was, you know, a leftist or

[25:17] that? And I kept looking at the video

[25:19] and I was like, I hate to sound gruesome

[25:20] and I hate to like do gunshot analysis

[25:22] in the moment. I said, but I think the

[25:24] shooter was left-handed. And he was

[25:26] like, "Why?" I was like, "Because I bet

[25:28] you he was aiming for his mouth or his

[25:29] nose and it was kind of down to the left

[25:31] and your first shot on the range is

[25:33] usually down to the other side." Um

[25:37] >> I was like, "I bet you he he got a

[25:39] little anxious on the pole, you know,

[25:40] first human kill or whatever." And uh so

[25:43] I mean that's kind of the the thought

[25:44] process. We were just sort of working

[25:46] through it from the very basics. There

[25:47] was no thought of really who was

[25:49] responsible or or some grand conspiracy

[25:51] or some you know multi- agency cover up

[25:54] in the moment. It was just sort of like

[25:55] what kind of crazy person would do this,

[25:57] >> right?

[25:58] >> Yeah.

[25:59] >> When did you do the first podcast

[26:00] discussing it at all? Was that a day

[26:03] later or two days later?

[26:05] >> I think it was like a

[26:07] uh he died on a Wednesday. I think it

[26:08] was Sunday.

[26:09] >> Okay. Now, that was so Tyler Robinson

[26:12] was arrested at well, they tell us he

[26:14] was arrested sometime on Thursday

[26:16] evening and then it was announced I

[26:18] think Trump announced it that Friday

[26:20] morning, two days after the killing on

[26:22] Fox and Friends like, "Yeah, we got the

[26:24] guy, whatever. Nothing to see here." And

[26:27] so Sunday would have been a couple days

[26:28] after that. At this point, were there

[26:31] parts of the story that you were already

[26:32] like, "Wait a minute. This isn't this

[26:35] isn't clicking?"

[26:36] >> Yeah.

[26:37] So I I had a when I was doing a

[26:41] consulting job a long time ago. This is

[26:44] I don't know a decade before Charlie

[26:46] died. Um we were doing some consulting

[26:49] on a team for a grocery chain. And one

[26:52] of the components of the consulting gig

[26:54] was um was Google trends analysis.

[26:57] >> And so we would look at you know what

[26:59] kind of what kind of trends are are

[27:03] mid-30s women looking at when they go to

[27:05] the grocery store? you know what what's

[27:07] the cool new hip snack? What what's

[27:09] everybody looking for?

[27:11] And so I had I had used that in the past

[27:14] because I I recognized the power of that

[27:16] analysis to realize these are real

[27:19] searches. Like these are actual searches

[27:21] that people are doing. This isn't just

[27:22] Google telling us what they think people

[27:24] are looking for. It's taking a sampling.

[27:26] It's not every search ever run on

[27:28] Google, but it's taking a sampling and

[27:30] they won't they a special sauce. They

[27:32] won't tell you how many are in the

[27:34] sample or what percentage it is, but you

[27:36] can be sure that if if someone in

[27:39] Lincoln, Nebraska

[27:41] searched for the Atlanta Braves on June

[27:43] 3rd of 2025, that that search took

[27:46] place.

[27:47] Somebody there did that or somebody with

[27:49] an IP address originating from there

[27:51] made that search. And so I had I had

[27:55] thought while I was doing this stuff

[27:57] with the grocery store, I kind of

[27:58] thought, wouldn't it be interesting if

[28:00] we could look at sort of mass shootings

[28:03] and things like that, there's always

[28:04] this, oh, he's a it was planned, he's a

[28:07] psyever.

[28:08] And so I started looking up mass

[28:10] shooters as they would happen or

[28:13] high-profile [clears throat]

[28:13] crimes as they would happen and look and

[28:15] see,

[28:17] were these terms searched, was this

[28:19] guy's full name searched anywhere it

[28:20] shouldn't have been? Um, and so I I' I

[28:23] did it with different things and I

[28:24] talked to a guy I was working with at

[28:26] the time and we were talking about the

[28:28] Thomas Matthew Crooks and I'd done this

[28:31] the search with him and you know, hey,

[28:33] he pops up in Washington DC the week

[28:34] before he pops up over

[28:36] >> Interesting.

[28:36] >> Yeah. And so, um, and again, why is he

[28:40] popping up there? Now, do I know it's

[28:42] that Thomas Matthew Krooks they're

[28:44] looking for? No. It could be any Thomas

[28:45] Matthew Krooks. But if you put it in

[28:47] quotes, you know it was searched in that

[28:48] order. Um, and you then can look and

[28:51] say, "Well, he wasn't searched in

[28:52] Virginia. He wasn't searched in West

[28:53] Virginia, but he was searched in DC or

[28:55] he was searched in Maryland or he was

[28:57] searched in New York." And um,

[29:00] [clears throat]

[29:01] so you can't say who's doing the search.

[29:02] You can't say why they were doing the

[29:04] search. You can't say that it was

[29:05] definitely that Thomas Matthew Krooks,

[29:07] but I started doing it for all these

[29:08] things. And it was always really

[29:10] interesting uh, to me. And I was sort of

[29:12] in my mind had created this uh fake mass

[29:15] shooting or real mass shooting. Fake

[29:17] school shooting or real school shooting

[29:18] based on these searches.

[29:20] >> And so after the Charlie Kirk shooting a

[29:22] day or two later, the guy was like,

[29:23] "Have you done it with that guy that got

[29:25] arrested?"

[29:26] Uh Tyler Robinson. I was like, "No."

[29:28] >> He's like, "You should." I was like,

[29:30] "All right."

[29:32] So I did. I started looking at Tyler

[29:34] James Robinson. Tyler Robinson. Um I

[29:37] looked in Utah, Arizona, Washington DC.

[29:40] Um, I always found that you get an

[29:42] interesting hit in the northern district

[29:43] of Alabama around Huntsville because the

[29:46] FBI head headquarters or FBI centers

[29:48] there. Um, [clears throat]

[29:50] [snorts]

[29:50] >> few other things in Huntsville, too.

[29:51] >> And so I started looking at all of the

[29:54] names associated with the case. Lance

[29:55] Twigs, Tyler Robinson, and I started

[29:57] seeing this really weird things. And I

[29:59] was talking to a buddy of mine um, and I

[30:02] was like, "What do we do with this?" And

[30:03] I was like, "I should give this to

[30:04] podcasters." And so I I would I would

[30:07] take the screen caps and I would email

[30:08] it to Ian Carol, email it to Candace

[30:10] Owens. Now that I'm on the receiving end

[30:12] of those emails, I realize how insane

[30:13] [laughter]

[30:15] that email had to sound insane.

[30:19] I'm so [cough and clears throat]

[30:19] terrified of going back and even reading

[30:21] it cuz I don't want to see myself in

[30:22] that light

[30:24] >> cuz I get these emails now, you know,

[30:26] from people with with the yarn boards

[30:28] behind them, you know.

[30:28] >> Yeah, we get a few.

[30:30] >> And um but I was trying to get the

[30:33] information out to someone else. I

[30:34] didn't want to cover it because I felt

[30:35] like, you know, it sounds dangerous

[30:37] because Israel was a country that kept

[30:39] popping up in these searches. And um and

[30:43] so finally, no one would bite on it. No

[30:45] one would email me back and I was like,

[30:46] you know, to hell with it. We'll just do

[30:48] it ourselves. So I fired up the camera

[30:50] one night and just went over it. And and

[30:51] like my normal [snorts] 35 people

[30:54] watching, maybe 50. Um not a lot of

[30:57] people were watching uh your humble host

[30:59] at the time. And um and so I you know do

[31:04] my show, turn the camera off at the end,

[31:06] didn't think much about it, went to bed

[31:09] [clears throat] a week later, you know,

[31:10] I I did another show the next Sunday

[31:12] night because I'd looked and I I found

[31:14] out the name of the surgeons at

[31:15] Tempenogus Hospital. And so I looked all

[31:17] them up and I found the name of the

[31:19] lawyers that were involved. So, I looked

[31:20] them up and I started seeing these

[31:22] really weird patterns that why is

[31:26] someone in Israel searching seven

[31:28] surgeons that work at Tempenogga's

[31:30] Hospital in June and July of 2025?

[31:34] Like, why?

[31:35] >> Kind of weird.

[31:35] >> Yeah, it's really weird.

[31:37] >> And you can't tell me the searches

[31:38] didn't take place. They did. Um, it's

[31:40] possible somebody in West Virginia had

[31:44] an VPN that they had set to originate in

[31:47] Israel and they were doing the searches.

[31:48] Like I don't know why the searches were

[31:50] coming out of Israel, but I know they

[31:52] were. Um, and they were coming out of

[31:54] Washington DC and they were coming out

[31:55] of uh other places they shouldn't have

[31:57] been. Like I could see someone in Utah

[31:59] saying, "I need surgery at Tempanogas.

[32:00] Who are the surgeons?" And looking them

[32:01] all up. I can't see someone in

[32:03] Washington DC doing that. I can't see

[32:05] someone in Israel doing that. It didn't

[32:06] make sense to me. So I went and covered

[32:08] that. And then [snorts] as we would

[32:10] learn more and more information about

[32:11] the case, I would always do this Google

[32:12] Trends analysis. So I end up doing like

[32:14] six or eight weeks worth of shows on

[32:16] just Google Trends. I didn't I covered

[32:18] no other aspect of the case really. And

[32:20] then there were a couple other mass

[32:21] shootings that popped up along the way

[32:22] and I would cover those as well. Um

[32:24] there was one in North Carolina, a guy

[32:26] shot up a bar and I looked his name up

[32:28] and I was like, this looks like a fake

[32:30] mass shooting and here's why. And then

[32:32] there was a guy who uh went after a

[32:34] Mormon church or something in Michigan

[32:36] at the time

[32:37] >> and I was like, I think that might be

[32:39] real because I can find no evidence

[32:40] anyone was looking for this guy. Um but

[32:43] I just it was going through these

[32:45] different things. Um, and

[32:47] [clears throat] I'm, you know, I'm a

[32:49] consumer of live podcasting. And so Ian

[32:51] Carol was doing free speech Friday. My

[32:53] wife said, "Oh, I got to get gas. I got

[32:55] to go somewhere in the morning." So, um,

[32:57] I'm going to go get gas. And I was like,

[32:58] "Let me go get gas. I'm just going to

[32:59] watch a podcast anyway." So, I put the

[33:01] podcast up on the dash of the minivan

[33:03] and I'm driving to Kroger to get gas and

[33:06] Ian Carol comes on and my I'm all

[33:07] excited because I know what I'm doing

[33:09] for the next couple hours and I I always

[33:11] look forward to that show. I loved it.

[33:13] And, uh, he's like, "Man, we got

[33:14] something interesting tonight. we've got

[33:16] this guy, this new podcaster. He's got

[33:18] like no subscriptions. No one's ever

[33:20] heard of this guy. He's like, "But he's

[33:20] doing great work." And I was like, "Hell

[33:22] yeah. Who is this guy? I cannot wait.

[33:24] Put me on someone new. This is great.

[33:25] I'm tired of listening to the same

[33:26] people." [laughter]

[33:28] And um and he was like, "His name is

[33:30] Baron Coleman." And I was like, "Oh no."

[33:33] [laughter] I was like, "This I did not

[33:34] need this." Um and so I called my wife

[33:38] and I was like, "Turn Ian on. This is

[33:40] this could this could be weird."

[33:42] >> [laughter]

[33:43] >> Um, and so then I get home that night

[33:45] and I've got, you know, hundreds of

[33:47] emails of people like, you know, hey, I

[33:49] found you online. I'm like, oh gosh, you

[33:51] know, I've taken no steps to protect

[33:52] myself in any way really. Um, and it

[33:56] just sort of took off from there. You

[33:57] know, I had 300 and something subs and

[33:59] it went to a thousand and it was I

[34:01] remember being on a plane with my

[34:02] sister, uh, going to my niece's wedding

[34:04] and and I looked and I was like, I got

[34:06] 3,000 subs. I was like, I never thought

[34:08] I'd have 3,000 people watching my show.

[34:10] That's crazy.

[34:11] And uh and then I went back and looked

[34:13] at the old episodes. They had like 20

[34:14] 30,000 views. I'm like, who the hell is

[34:16] watching this? You know, why would

[34:17] anyone tune me in?

[34:19] >> Get shout out by Ian.

[34:20] >> Yeah, it made it made a huge difference.

[34:23] And so it it just sort of t took off

[34:25] from there. And I didn't want to be

[34:27] pigeonhold as the Google Trends guy. And

[34:29] I felt like that had kind of run its

[34:31] course. And I felt like I, you know, was

[34:33] was a decent enough broadcaster that I

[34:35] cover other stuff. And if people were

[34:38] interested at all in the Google Trends

[34:39] stuff, maybe they'd stick around to hear

[34:40] me cover other stuff, too. So, I started

[34:42] looking at other aspects of the cases. I

[34:44] got interested in them.

[34:45] >> Before we get to that, on the Google

[34:46] Trends thing, this is just something I

[34:48] always wonder cuz it's kind of wild when

[34:50] you look after something crazy happens

[34:51] and then you'll see like, as you said,

[34:53] the full name with the middle name

[34:54] searched in places. And I I'm always

[34:57] like trying to put myself in the seat of

[35:00] people part of like a conspiracy to do

[35:02] this. And I'm like, yeah, human beings,

[35:05] even ones that are supposed to be smart

[35:07] in dark positions, they make stupid

[35:09] mistakes. But why in so many instances

[35:14] do you think people actually like take

[35:16] the time on Google without doing

[35:18] anything? Maybe they put a VPN on, maybe

[35:20] they do that, but like don't you think

[35:22] they could get like an Edward Snowden

[35:23] NSA computer so that it's not through

[35:25] [ __ ] Google that they're searching

[35:26] for a guy? Or maybe just don't search

[35:28] for the guy that's going to be in the

[35:28] middle of your conspiracy altogether?

[35:30] Like why do they do this [ __ ] and leave

[35:31] a trail other than to make sure someone

[35:33] smart like Baron Coleman catches it

[35:35] because they want you to?

[35:36] >> I don't think most people knew this tool

[35:38] existed. Um I had to introduce people to

[35:40] the tool. Most people had never heard of

[35:42] it.

[35:42] >> Really?

[35:42] >> Yeah. Most people did. I mean most of

[35:44] the people watching the show had never

[35:46] heard of it. Had no [clears throat] idea

[35:48] the capacity of it or how powerful of a

[35:49] tool it was or what it was even doing.

[35:51] >> Yeah. It's been around a while.

[35:52] >> Yeah. It's been around since ' 04. I

[35:54] think it's been around a long time. But

[35:56] [snorts] that ambiguity or that lack of

[35:58] knowledge or or maybe just ignorance in

[36:00] its classical sense, that ignorance of

[36:02] Google Trends allowed people to attack

[36:04] the tool or attack the use of the tool

[36:06] in the Tyler Robinson case because

[36:08] people were like, "Oh, that's not what

[36:10] Google Trends is. You can't you can't

[36:12] identify a single search." Well, no, you

[36:14] can. You know, if that search shows up,

[36:15] that search was done. It was done. It

[36:18] absolutely happened. Um,

[36:21] and so it's, you know, I think part of

[36:23] it is people just didn't realize it

[36:25] existed. I I do see now that these

[36:27] searches are not being run on a lot of

[36:30] these mass shootings. It used to be

[36:31] almost all of them. Almost all of the

[36:34] mass shootings you could find the

[36:35] shooter searched in particular

[36:37] jurisdictions in advance, 3 to six

[36:40] months in advance, and then again a

[36:41] month in advance, then again a week in

[36:43] advance. A lot of times a day or two

[36:44] before. Um,

[36:46] >> that's so strange. Yeah, it it it's it's

[36:49] just wild.

[36:50] >> Um and there's some that you couldn't

[36:52] like uh the the shooter down at Parkland

[36:55] um in Florida. [clears throat]

[36:57] >> I could find

[36:57] >> Nicholas Cruz.

[36:58] >> Yeah, I think that was his name. I could

[37:00] find nothing on that guy and that was a

[37:02] kind of a a weird situation there. Like

[37:04] that's one I expected to find a lot on.

[37:06] I found nothing.

[37:07] >> Um

[37:08] >> there's no lights in that kid's eyes.

[37:10] Nothing nothing home there.

[37:12] >> He went and got a Coke at a Subway and

[37:14] just like chilled out.

[37:16] >> Yeah. Like that's that's a different

[37:18] type of

[37:19] >> different type of person.

[37:20] >> Yeah.

[37:21] >> Um

[37:23] yeah, no lights. That's a good way to

[37:24] describe it. Um but anyway, so yeah, I

[37:27] mean that's that was kind of the

[37:28] limitation of the Google Trends is just

[37:30] that people weren't familiar with it.

[37:31] But because people weren't familiar with

[37:32] it, I think it had value because people

[37:35] were just googling names. They're like,

[37:36] "Oh, we're using a guy named Thomas

[37:38] Matthew Krooks. Let's look him up. Let's

[37:40] check his Does he have a social media

[37:41] profile?" You know, what's he is there a

[37:42] picture online? What are they going to

[37:44] see when they when they Google his name

[37:45] after this happens? Uh, I don't know

[37:46] that that's what was happening. I can't

[37:48] say definitively that's what's

[37:49] happening. But in the absence of of hard

[37:52] knowledge, the mind kind of runs wild on

[37:54] these things.

[37:55] >> Yeah. Now, the first few weeks when

[37:57] you're doing that and focusing on the

[37:58] show with the Google Trends though,

[38:00] there's a lot of information coming out

[38:02] from the government fast and furiously

[38:04] about, you know, what they are saying

[38:07] happened here. This is what it is. This

[38:08] is, oh, there were texts with Tyler

[38:10] Robinson, his alleged lover, by the way.

[38:12] His lover was trans. There's that angle

[38:14] here. He wrote this stuff on the

[38:16] bullets. What was standing out to you

[38:19] again outside the trends right away that

[38:21] you're like, "What the [ __ ] That

[38:22] doesn't make sense." Like from the jump.

[38:26] Um, [sighs]

[38:30] it's hard to it's hard to to dissociate

[38:33] the Google Trends analysis I was doing

[38:35] because the the Lance Twigs thing was

[38:37] always suspect because Lance Twigs was a

[38:39] far more persistent result on Google

[38:42] Trends for a much longer period of time

[38:44] than Tyler James Robinson was.

[38:45] >> Really?

[38:46] >> Yeah. Overseas and in District of

[38:47] Columbia. Um he would pop up from time

[38:51] to time going back to when he was a a

[38:53] teenager, 16, 17 years old. Um you would

[38:56] you would see him with his full name

[38:58] Lance Tyler Twigs and Lance Twigs.

[39:00] >> How old was he now in 2025?

[39:03] >> Oh, 22 maybe three. So

[39:06] >> So several years.

[39:07] >> Yeah. Like 2021 22 it starts popping up.

[39:09] >> Interesting. Um, and my thought in this

[39:11] is, you know, how do you become a psy? I

[39:14] think I think there are hundreds of

[39:16] thousands of available psies at any

[39:17] given moment. Um, probably because

[39:20] people are looking up stuff online they

[39:22] shouldn't be looking up. They're saying

[39:23] things in Discord chats they shouldn't

[39:24] be saying. Uh, they're trying to meet up

[39:26] with people they shouldn't be meeting up

[39:27] with. Uh, primarily young people. Mhm.

[39:30] >> And so you end up with this pool of

[39:32] available people that [clears throat]

[39:34] any one of them would rather go to

[39:35] prison for accessory to a murder than

[39:39] what they're what they're trying to do

[39:41] online.

[39:42] And um so it's hard to to to segregate

[39:47] those two things in my mind. It's hard

[39:49] to take the the story of Tyler Robinson

[39:51] that we're being fed without the Lance

[39:53] Twigs component being this persistent

[39:55] showing up looking to me like a federal

[39:58] operator or at least an an asset of some

[40:01] sort from the very beginning from his

[40:03] from his late teenage years. And you

[40:06] know then the stories come out that his

[40:07] parents were having a lot of problems

[40:08] with him and you know his grandparents

[40:10] were having problems with him and you

[40:11] know twigs

[40:12] >> twigs. Yeah. And so it looks like you

[40:14] have a problem child who's chronically

[40:16] online, who's u obviously sexually

[40:19] disturbed.

[40:21] God knows what his internet search

[40:22] history look like. God knows what kind

[40:24] of Discord groups and Reddit pages he

[40:25] was looking at and all kinds of other

[40:27] stuff. A guy like that is ripe, you

[40:30] know, to we we can offer you a way out

[40:33] of this.

[40:34] >> And and so I sort of always took it from

[40:37] that perspective. That's sort of what

[40:38] made me starting to that's what made me

[40:41] start to be skeptical of the whole story

[40:43] from the beginning is is the Lance Twigs

[40:45] component, not the Tyler Robinson

[40:46] component.

[40:47] >> That's interesting. So, you were pulling

[40:49] on to that more. Was there a thought

[40:51] there early on where you're like,

[40:54] damn, I wonder if Tyler Robinson even

[40:56] did this alto together?

[40:59] >> Yes. Um, I was willing to accept he did

[41:02] it initially. Uh, I kind of took it at

[41:04] face value.

[41:05] >> Why? Why did you take it at face value?

[41:10] Yeah, thank you. Um, I have a mute. I I

[41:12] don't know if you've ever watched me. I

[41:13] cough a lot. It's just Yeah, I've seen

[41:15] you do it.

[41:16] >> It's just part of me. So, I have a I

[41:17] have a mute button that I've installed

[41:19] and I I use it a lot.

[41:21] >> Um,

[41:23] but um

[41:25] I was willing to accept Tyler did it,

[41:27] but I was willing to accept he was set

[41:29] up to do it.

[41:30] >> Set up to like like he was

[41:32] >> not brainwashed, but but pushed,

[41:35] radicalized. M

[41:36] >> uh n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n

[41:37] n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n

[41:37] n nudged, you know, we got to do

[41:39] something. He's coming on campus. You

[41:41] know, this is our chance. You you're the

[41:42] guy. You you you know, you got the gun.

[41:44] You you know how to shoot. That kind of

[41:46] thing. I I kind of always assoc I I I

[41:49] associated Lance Twigs with a setup from

[41:52] the beginning. And I associated Lance

[41:54] Twigs with a kind of an asset aspect

[41:58] from the beginning. And so it was easy

[41:59] for me to see kind of that two steps uh

[42:03] to Tyler Robinson. It wasn't until I

[42:05] sort of got fascinated with watching

[42:07] people try to recreate the shot, a 3006

[42:09] shot, and they were shooting absolutely

[42:10] everything and, you know, Green Bay

[42:13] podcasters and sniper podcasters saying,

[42:15] "This is not a 300 6. It had to hit body

[42:17] armor. It had to have hit something

[42:18] else. It had to be a lower caliber

[42:20] round. It had to come from a different

[42:22] direction. There's no way a 300 6 from

[42:24] that direction did this damage. It's

[42:26] impossible."

[42:27] And that's sort of what led me to, well,

[42:30] maybe there was something else. Maybe

[42:31] there was another person. Maybe it was

[42:32] some, you know, Chris Martinson had that

[42:34] theory that he was shot with a lower

[42:35] caliber round from a different angle.

[42:37] >> And so I sort of ran down that rabbit

[42:38] hole for a while.

[42:39] >> Did Chris have a like have someone in

[42:42] the crowd that he could point to on that

[42:43] or was he was he just basing it off what

[42:45] he could see ballistically?

[42:47] >> Uh, no, he didn't. I don't think he ever

[42:49] pointed anyone in the crowd. I think he

[42:50] was thinking Saenson Center roof.

[42:53] >> Um, okay. Because that's the right angle

[42:55] to uh to do the damage that was claimed.

[42:59] So that's a different roof than the one

[43:01] that Tyler was allegedly on.

[43:02] >> Yeah. So the this the the Losi center is

[43:05] pretty straight ahead, you know,

[43:06] [clears throat] maybe offset a degree or

[43:07] two. I think it was 9 degrees offset. Um

[43:11] the Losi center roof is is kind of to

[43:14] Charlie's I don't know 10:00 or no not

[43:17] 10 o'clock. What is that? Whatever that

[43:18] is over there. Yeah, 10 o'clock. And

[43:20] that would be more of an angle because

[43:21] remember Andrew Kovette came out with

[43:23] that tweet allegedly

[43:24] >> Oh yeah.

[43:25] >> quoting the doctor saying that his

[43:26] >> Can we pull that tweet up, Dave? I love

[43:28] that one. Oh my god.

[43:29] >> His C1 through C6 were impacted.

[43:32] >> A miracle.

[43:32] >> Yeah. And so Martinsson, I think, is

[43:35] trying to to reconcile damage to the

[43:37] vertebrae with with angle of a a gun,

[43:42] the angle a gun would have had to come

[43:44] from in order to do that damage. Um, and

[43:46] so he was sort of leaning towards the

[43:47] Losi Center. I was still thinking

[43:49] gunshot at the time. I mean it it you

[43:51] know this was late September early

[43:54] October but I was I was sort of on the

[43:57] gunshot train but not a 306 from the

[43:59] Losi center again because all the

[44:01] ballistic experts they were shooting

[44:03] thousands of things. I mean they were

[44:04] shooting steel plates and cast iron

[44:06] skillets and stop signs and uh they were

[44:09] shooting ham bones and uh ham hawks and

[44:12] necks and pigs and cows. I mean, they

[44:14] were shooting everything and it was just

[44:15] blowing right through everything and

[44:17] they were shooting it from 142 yards and

[44:19] and it would just blow through

[44:20] everything and it would blow through the

[44:22] concrete block after it blew through

[44:23] everything. And so it never made sense

[44:25] to me that a bullet could arrive from

[44:27] the Losi center at that angle, a 306

[44:30] round with that much energy and and stop

[44:34] in his neck within like what three

[44:36] inches,

[44:37] >> right? And but Deep just pulled up the

[44:38] tweet. This was from I believe September

[44:40] 20th, 2025, 10 days after the one you

[44:43] referenced with Andrew Kovette and I

[44:45] when I did the podcast with Joseph Scott

[44:46] Morgan like we read this one out too

[44:48] because even if somehow this were true

[44:50] and to be clear I don't believe this.

[44:53] It's like the fact that he wrote this

[44:56] whole thing out presumably read it back

[44:58] to himself cuz the grammar looks good.

[45:00] So seems like [cough] he edited it and I

[45:02] don't know if he did the old rule my mom

[45:03] used to say which is count to five

[45:04] before you press send. But like the fact

[45:06] that he pressed sen on this in a nation

[45:08] that was once told that a magic bullet

[45:10] went through [ __ ] 40 different

[45:12] regions to somehow kill the president of

[45:14] the United States

[45:15] >> and thought this was not going to be

[45:17] taken the wrong way blows my mind from

[45:19] like a just intellectual discourse

[45:20] level. But just to read it for people to

[45:22] have context so you understand what we

[45:24] were referring to. This was Andrew

[45:25] Kovette on September 20th, 2025. He

[45:28] says, "I want to address some of the

[45:29] discussion about the lack of an exit

[45:30] wound with Charlie. I'm usually not

[45:32] interested in delving into the most of

[45:33] this kind of most of this kind of online

[45:35] chatter and I apologize this is somewhat

[45:37] graphic but in this case the fact that

[45:39] there wasn't an exit wound is probably

[45:41] another miracle and I want people to

[45:43] know I just spoke with the surgeon who

[45:45] worked on Charlie in the hospital. It's

[45:47] interesting from a HIPPA standpoint but

[45:48] that's neither here nor there. He said

[45:50] the bullet quote absolutely should have

[45:52] gone through which is very very normal

[45:53] for a high-powered high velocity round.

[45:55] I've seen wounds from this caliber many

[45:57] times and they always just go through

[45:59] everything. this would have taken a

[46:00] moose or two down, an elk, etc. But it

[46:04] didn't go through. Charlie's body

[46:06] stopped it. I mentioned to his doctor

[46:08] that there were dozens of staff,

[46:10] students, and special guests standing

[46:11] directly behind Charlie on the on the

[46:13] other side of the tent. And he replied,

[46:15] quote, "It was an absolute miracle that

[46:17] someone else didn't get hit." His bone

[46:20] was so healthy and the density was so

[46:21] impressive that he's like the man of

[46:23] steel. It should have just gone through

[46:25] and through. it likely would have killed

[46:27] those standing behind him, too." In the

[46:30] end, the coroner did find the bullet

[46:32] just beneath the skin. Even in death,

[46:34] Charlie managed to save the lives of

[46:36] those around him. Remarkable.

[46:38] Miraculous. Well, and I agree with him.

[46:40] It would have taken a miracle. Like

[46:42] there's there's he he even admits again

[46:45] taking this at face value, which I don't

[46:46] take anything he says at face value. Uh

[46:48] but if you take that at face value, the

[46:50] surgeon comes right out and says, "Hey,

[46:53] this doesn't happen. this a 30 odd six

[46:56] doesn't stop in that little bit of soft

[46:58] ne soft tissue in the neck. It just

[46:59] doesn't happen. That's not a thing that

[47:01] happens. It's a miracle that it did. Um

[47:05] and so even that you look at that and

[47:07] you say, "Okay, it wasn't a 306 to the

[47:08] neck. It it couldn't have been. It would

[47:11] have gone through."

[47:11] >> Would it matter? So what was the gun

[47:13] used here again in Mouser? Is that

[47:15] right?

[47:16] >> Yeah. So, when you're seeing all these

[47:17] different demonstrations from beretss

[47:19] and and snipers and stuff like that who

[47:21] are doing this like like qualified guys

[47:23] who are doing it online, were you seeing

[47:25] it with people using all different kinds

[47:26] of guns, including the gun or a similar

[47:29] one that was used here?

[47:30] >> Yeah, they were using everything down

[47:32] to, you know, 223 up to a 300 6. And,

[47:38] you [clears throat] know, nobody knew at

[47:40] the time. Was it a frangible round? Was

[47:42] it uh, you know, 150, 170 grain? Was it

[47:44] 180 grain? Nobody knew what it was. Um,

[47:47] but they were committed to the 306

[47:49] narrative. And it doesn't matter what

[47:51] you put in a 300 6, it's going through.

[47:53] I mean, people,

[47:54] >> uh, Jesse on Fire and Heavy Duty Country

[47:56] did a a demo with frangible rounds.

[47:59] These are frangible rounds from like the

[48:01] 1940s.

[48:02] >> Can you explain that to people who don't

[48:03] understand guns and bullets out there?

[48:05] >> Yeah. So, so a a regular full metal

[48:08] jacket round is designed not to break

[48:10] up. It's supposed to go through. Um, a

[48:13] frangible round is designed to break up.

[48:15] It's supposed to hit something hard and

[48:17] stop it. It stops redirection. It stops

[48:19] um people, you know, innocent bystanders

[48:22] from getting hit.

[48:23] >> And so it's um it [clears throat] it

[48:26] will turn kind of to dust if it hits the

[48:28] right uh right density of an object,

[48:32] >> but

[48:33] >> can it like mushroom too? And like

[48:35] >> um so that you're thinking of kind of a

[48:37] a soft point that will that will sort of

[48:39] mushroom when it hits. Um, but no, I

[48:44] mean, a fangal round typically is not

[48:46] going to mushroom. Okay.

[48:47] >> Um, full metal jacket

[48:49] can have a little mushroom mushrooming,

[48:51] but it's not designed really to do that.

[48:54] >> Um,

[48:56] but yeah, I mean, it did it didn't

[48:57] matter what they threw at it. Anything

[48:58] they fired went through

[49:01] much thicker things than a neck, much

[49:05] denser bone than vertebrae. And so, you

[49:09] know, instantly I began to doubt that

[49:11] narrative and I'm thinking, okay, if it

[49:12] wasn't a 306

[49:14] and it wasn't from the Losi Center,

[49:15] where would where'd it come from? It had

[49:16] to had to be a gunshot, right? Where did

[49:18] this gunshot come from? And so I sort of

[49:20] ran down that rabbit hole for a while

[49:21] before you realize that rabbit hole

[49:23] doesn't hold much weight either. Um

[49:25] because even a lot of the lower caliber

[49:26] rounds are going to to pass right

[49:29] through that. I mean, it's just a neck

[49:30] is not that much tissue. It's soft, you

[49:33] know. Um,

[49:34] >> as you're thinking about this at this

[49:36] point, where's your head going with what

[49:38] this was? Did you have any idea of like

[49:41] in your opinion what this could be or

[49:43] who might be behind it or things like

[49:44] that or was it too early?

[49:46] >> No, it wasn't too early at all because

[49:47] again, the Lance Twigs component made me

[49:49] think there might be some sort of

[49:50] government aspect to it. I I couldn't at

[49:53] the time

[49:56] think of why the government would want

[49:58] to kill Charlie Kirk. That didn't make

[50:00] sense to me. He'd been a huge friend of

[50:02] the president, you know, rightly or

[50:04] wrongly credited with getting the

[50:05] president reelected. He was friends with

[50:08] the president's son. He was uh, you

[50:10] know, business partners with the

[50:11] president's son. And so, in my mind, I'm

[50:14] thinking, okay, if this is a government

[50:16] operation, it has to be rogue. It has to

[50:18] be something that that is operating

[50:20] below the office of the president, but

[50:22] at a high enough level that you could

[50:24] actually pull this off. You're not going

[50:25] to get like a bunch of E5s out there

[50:27] like, let's kill Charlie Kirk, you know,

[50:28] and run and do something. So, you know,

[50:31] that's sort of where my mind was. Was

[50:33] this was probably a domestic military

[50:35] operation, but below the office of the

[50:38] president.

[50:38] >> Did you have a motive in in mind or like

[50:41] a reason they would want Charlie Kirk

[50:43] gone?

[50:44] >> The Iran War.

[50:45] >> That was why.

[50:46] >> Yeah. I mean, that's the only thing I

[50:47] could think of. He was he was pretty

[50:49] adamant and and a lot of the clips were

[50:51] starting to get replayed. The the clip

[50:53] from the PBD podcast back in 2023.

[50:55] >> I remember that when it came out.

[50:56] >> Yeah. That was pretty devastating. That

[50:59] was like I would cite that to people at

[51:02] the time and I'm like Charlie Kirk was

[51:05] saying [laughter] this. I'm like, this

[51:06] is the most [ __ ] you know,

[51:08] pro-Israel kind of dude ever saying this

[51:10] like five days after October 7th where

[51:13] he was talking about the I've been to

[51:15] that guaza border, you know, I don't

[51:16] know how.

[51:17] >> It wasn't only that, though. He seemed

[51:18] to have insider knowledge of the plan uh

[51:22] looking back because

[51:23] >> he said, you know, I I don't even want

[51:25] to use the word. He said, but okay, I'll

[51:27] use it.

[51:27] >> Ethnic cleanse it.

[51:28] >> They're going to ethnically cleanse it,

[51:29] you know. And at the time, I thought,

[51:31] how can you ethnically cleanse Gaza?

[51:32] That's crazy. You'd have to either kill

[51:34] everyone or relocate. I mean, that

[51:35] didn't even make sense. But looking

[51:37] back, you go, "Oh,

[51:39] maybe he did know something." And maybe

[51:41] that knowledge, as he continued to turn

[51:44] and and push harder on that subject,

[51:45] maybe that knowledge is what got him

[51:46] killed

[51:47] >> at the time. At the time, and this is a

[51:49] way different world then, but

[51:51] [clears throat] I remember watching that

[51:52] at the time. And when he did the like

[51:55] [sighs and gasps] and like looked up to

[51:57] the sky like this, I was like,

[51:59] you know, I'm not I wasn't even going

[52:01] where you just were with like, oh, maybe

[52:02] he knew like something about it, but I

[52:04] was going, what is the weight behind

[52:06] that? The weight of him just giving an

[52:09] opinion on this, saying, hey, I'm just

[52:11] throwing this out there. Don't shoot the

[52:13] messenger, but may maybe it could be

[52:15] this. Like you could tell he was like,

[52:16] am I really going to [ __ ] say this?

[52:18] Do I did I take enough day to [ __ ]

[52:20] send it to [laughter] say this? You

[52:21] know, and then he did. Well, he he

[52:23] looked up he was he was recalling a

[52:25] conversation in my opinion. He was

[52:27] recalling a conversation. He he was

[52:28] looking up like what what words did he

[52:31] use? Okay. Used ethnically cleansing.

[52:33] That's that's that's how I took it.

[52:34] >> Um

[52:36] you know and then and then they tried in

[52:39] vain for two years to get him back on

[52:41] the team and weren't successful.

[52:44] >> Here's the thing though. He from what I

[52:47] could see and I'm just seeing social

[52:48] clips at the time. I can't say I'm like

[52:50] the closest person watching Charlie Kirk

[52:51] while he's doing this, but like I would

[52:53] see clips pop up of him doing things,

[52:56] not even on college campuses, but like

[52:58] at conferences and stuff like that. I'm

[52:59] talking in 24 25 where like the Israel

[53:03] topic would come up and he would

[53:05] voseiferously defend it. And we now can

[53:08] see from like some texts and stuff

[53:10] behind the scenes and conversations that

[53:12] were happening in what I've seen,

[53:14] especially until those recent texts that

[53:16] Candace put out, which I think is

[53:17] something we got to come back to, but

[53:19] like July 2025, August 2025, the

[53:24] Hampton's meeting, you know, when he did

[53:25] the thing with Dave Smith and Dave Smith

[53:27] talks about what they talked about

[53:29] offstage before that debate at the end

[53:30] of of July 2025. That's where you could

[53:33] start to see him at least like saying

[53:36] some things out loud on his show when

[53:37] you look at clips. But before then,

[53:40] after the PBD thing, what he thought

[53:43] privately is one thing, but everything

[53:45] he still did publicly to me was very

[53:48] much still like

[53:50] defending the shield here.

[53:51] >> Yeah. Until until August, that's when he

[53:54] started uh dropping the mask a little

[53:55] bit. Um the Megan Kelly interview, I

[53:58] think it was August 6th.

[53:59] >> Yep.

[54:00] >> Um

[54:00] >> two days after the Hampton. Yeah, he he

[54:03] that was the first time I recall him

[54:05] publicly dropping the mask after that

[54:06] PBD interview and you know uh so

[54:12] in my mind in you know going back you

[54:14] were asking me where I was in September

[54:16] October it wasn't an international

[54:18] operation but I thought it probably had

[54:21] international okay

[54:23] because of the searches that originated

[54:26] from overseas

[54:27] >> and you were thinking it's interesting

[54:28] though that that early you were already

[54:30] [clears throat] thinking the Iran war

[54:31] Because again, the narrative, huge air

[54:33] quotes there, but the narrative at the

[54:35] time was, "Oh, we did that 12-day thing.

[54:36] We came in and bombed Florida. The

[54:37] nuclear now you and I know this

[54:39] [ __ ] but the nuclear the nuclear

[54:41] stuff's gone. So, we've stepped out and

[54:43] we're not going to war." And so, in my

[54:45] head, I was like, "Yeah, I'll believe

[54:46] that when I see it,

[54:47] >> but at the same time, I will admit I

[54:49] still wasn't thinking like from that

[54:52] point, June 2025, I wasn't thinking

[54:54] sometime in the next 12 months, we're

[54:56] going to seriously be looking at boots

[54:58] on the ground like as a real plan in

[55:00] Iran." And then that became like a

[55:02] within nine eight nine months

[55:03] conveniently after Charles Charlie's

[55:05] dead they were already talking about it

[55:07] like okay we're starting a war now and

[55:08] maybe we're going to put boots on the

[55:10] ground.

[55:11] >> Yeah. I mean but it you knew I knew

[55:14] everybody in the leadup to the 12-day

[55:16] war. We all kind of had the same thought

[55:20] or a lot of us on on our side of

[55:21] [clears throat] that issue had the same

[55:22] thought which was this this is going to

[55:24] spiral out of control into World War II.

[55:26] You know the Iranians are proud people.

[55:28] they're not just going to let people

[55:29] come in and bomb them and and go, "Okay,

[55:31] well, we're sorry, guys. Sorry about

[55:32] that." Um, [clears throat]

[55:35] it had the it had the potential and the

[55:37] capacity to get very ugly very quickly.

[55:39] Um, and and Charlie coming out talking

[55:42] about it in the way he did,

[55:46] it it just that's a problem if you're

[55:49] going to go forward. That's a problem

[55:50] you have to deal with. You you can't

[55:53] just leave that that loose end hanging

[55:54] out there. Why not deal with it earlier

[55:58] though if they knew that that was

[55:59] already a thing he was thinking behind

[56:01] the scenes? The reason I asked that is

[56:03] because by the time if it is alleged

[56:06] like they did deal with it in September

[56:08] 2025 respectfully the horse has left the

[56:11] barn. You look at people below 55 in

[56:13] this country left right it's very

[56:15] unifying issue like what the [ __ ] was he

[56:17] even going to do about it at that point?

[56:19] He was getting killed by his own people

[56:21] on

[56:21] >> Well, we don't know that they didn't

[56:22] try.

[56:24] So, you know, the fact that something

[56:27] happened on September 10th doesn't mean

[56:29] that there wasn't a very similar

[56:31] operation in place in April

[56:34] >> uh in December the month the year before

[56:36] that. Like you you can't you can't say

[56:38] definitively this was the only time that

[56:40] they tried. And had they gone on

[56:42] September 10th and something went wrong

[56:46] and they called off the operation, you

[56:47] and I would not be sitting here talking

[56:49] about it. Um maybe they would have done

[56:51] it September 29th or October 5th. you

[56:54] know, we we don't know that this was the

[56:56] only time that he walked into a death

[56:59] circle and and and

[57:02] there was a plan to take him out.

[57:04] >> Uh it it could have been like what if it

[57:06] had rained that day,

[57:07] >> right?

[57:08] >> You know, if if if the plan is to take

[57:10] him out, you're not going to let a rain

[57:12] shower ruin it. You're going to just

[57:14] Okay, here's our backup plan. Here's the

[57:15] next place we're doing it. You know,

[57:17] it's not lost on me that that all of his

[57:20] first events were like in Colorado and

[57:21] Utah. They're all right there together.

[57:23] So

[57:25] >> how prior to September 10th when he was

[57:27] going back out on this tour publicly at

[57:29] colleges, you know, in the year before

[57:32] that, how good and deep, you know, by

[57:36] manpower was his security team

[57:39] everywhere he went? How much did we know

[57:42] about that?

[57:42] >> I want to say Brian Harpole said they

[57:44] typically carried six with them. Um, and

[57:49] that was on the Shawn Ryan show. And I I

[57:51] don't don't quote me on that because

[57:53] maybe he said five or seven, but I I

[57:55] want to say it was six because I

[57:56] remember I remember the impression it

[57:58] left with me after that show was that

[58:00] they had doubled his security for that

[58:01] day and I think he said they had 12 or

[58:03] 13 people on the ground that day. Um and

[58:07] so that would be I think fairly average

[58:09] for him.

[58:11] >> Now obviously you know he's not a

[58:13] president so it's not a secret service

[58:14] team. it doesn't have, even if it's a

[58:16] deep security team, it doesn't have that

[58:17] kind of resources. But, you know, from

[58:20] what you've been able to gather

[58:23] in the past, was there a protocol with

[58:25] any of his security teams when he would

[58:27] go do public events outdoors that were

[58:29] near roofs where they would scan some

[58:31] roofs and and see if there were any

[58:33] security limitations on those?

[58:35] >> I have no idea.

[58:36] >> Okay. That'd be interesting to know if

[58:39] they had ever done that. I think it it

[58:41] had crossed their mind because multiple

[58:44] of them in the aftermath

[58:46] have commented on the fact that when he

[58:48] walked in, they looked up and saw the

[58:49] roofs and it made them uncomfortable.

[58:51] >> Um, I can't imagine that was the first

[58:53] time it had dawned on anybody that

[58:56] roofs, particularly in light of what

[58:57] happened in Butler the July before. I

[58:59] can't imagine that's the first time it

[59:01] had ever dawned on anybody, roofs are a

[59:02] major vulnerability.

[59:03] >> Sure. Yeah. I I would especially after

[59:05] Butler, you would think you'd be

[59:06] thinking that [ __ ] everywhere. This

[59:08] is [clears throat] over a year after

[59:08] that. The the other thing that was weird

[59:11] right from the jump to me, I talked with

[59:12] you about this on the phone, but I'll

[59:15] never forget when So, he died on a

[59:17] Wednesday and then Friday morning, like

[59:18] we said, that was when they said Tyler

[59:20] Robinson had been arrested. And then I

[59:23] had a wedding to go to on Saturday that

[59:25] was like 6 hours away. So, I was going

[59:27] to get up early and drive there. So,

[59:28] Friday night, I'm sitting in here. I'm

[59:30] working and I see something on Twitter

[59:32] that his wife Erica is gonna come out

[59:35] and give a statement. So, I'm like,

[59:36] "Okay." So, I pull up the live stream on

[59:38] YouTube and I just remember seeing her

[59:42] walk in and the only thing I felt was

[59:46] guilt because right away that thing in

[59:49] my gut that goes, "What the [ __ ]

[59:53] Something ain't right here. This ain't

[59:55] real. What?" I've never had that thought

[59:57] in a situation like this before. It was

[59:59] blinking on a 12.

[00:01] >> Yeah. And I'm watching this and I'm like

[00:05] and you know everyone's I'm going to

[00:06] Twitter and everyone's like praising

[00:07] her. There's like a mass like campaign

[00:09] of people being like, "Oh my god,

[00:10] bravest woman ever." You yada yada yada.

[00:12] And I remember shutting the computer

[00:14] afterwards and like just being quiet.

[00:16] And I'm like, "That's an impure thought.

[00:18] So mean. This is a grieving widow. Don't

[00:21] think that." But then I'm driving to the

[00:23] wedding the next day and I'm thinking

[00:25] about it in the car. I could not get it

[00:26] out of my head. And so Sunday morning

[00:29] driving back from the wedding back up

[00:30] here, I call up my buddy Danny Jones and

[00:34] it was like the two of us were like

[00:36] coming out of the closet cuz I'm like,

[00:38] "Hey man, you know, we talk like every

[00:40] day like, "Hey, what's going on?" I'm

[00:41] like, "You watch that thing the other

[00:44] night?" "What [snorts] thing?" "Oh, oh

[00:46] the thing with the wife." I'm like,

[00:48] "Yeah,

[00:50] [snorts] what? What do you think?" And

[00:52] he's like, "Bro, it was so weird." I'M

[00:54] LIKE, "OH MY [screaming] GOD, IT WAS SO

[00:56] WEIRD TO ME, TOO. I WAS OH MY GOD, I

[00:59] FELT LIKE I COULDN'T TELL ANYONE about

[01:00] this." He's like, "Dude, something's

[01:01] off." And he's like, "Even my wife said

[01:03] it."

[01:04] >> And you know, women pick up on that [ __ ]

[01:06] real good. They they know that [ __ ] And

[01:08] we were just talking about it and I'm

[01:09] like, "What is that?" And you know,

[01:12] still the narrative was you'd go on

[01:14] social media, most people were like,

[01:15] "Oh, she's so brave." And then you get

[01:17] the WWE wedding with the Vicks in the

[01:20] [ __ ] you know, no ugly crying. Yeah,

[01:23] >> I know people grieve weird, but like at

[01:26] what point was it the WWE wedding or

[01:30] funeral? I'm sorry. Was it before that?

[01:32] Was it after that? At what point did you

[01:33] start saying to yourself, "Wait a

[01:35] minute. Something ain't right there."

[01:37] >> Yeah. So, it wasn't that for me. I mean,

[01:39] I I watched it. I watched the speech and

[01:41] looking back at it, it sends all kinds

[01:44] of crazy alarm bells off, but at the

[01:45] time, you know, whatever. And actually

[01:47] the guy I was talking to when we were

[01:49] first learning about it in real time and

[01:50] the pictures were coming out, the videos

[01:52] were coming out. Um, he called

[01:54] [clears throat] me back, I want to say

[01:57] Monday or Tuesday, so what is that, like

[01:59] the 15th maybe, something like that. Uh,

[02:02] it was a day or two before she was

[02:03] announced that she was going to be the

[02:05] the the person. And he said, "Hey, I've

[02:08] got some information out of TPUSA. I

[02:09] know who they're going to put in in

[02:10] Charlie's place." because we had talked

[02:12] about the day he died. We had talked

[02:14] about who would [clears throat] take

[02:15] over TPSA as just even if it's just a

[02:17] placeholder. And he had mentioned Tyler

[02:20] Berer, he had mentioned Benny Johnson,