Brant Hansen and Gabe Lyons Remember Charlie Kirk's Faith, Boldness, and Mission to Transform a Generation

Chapter 1: Remembering Charlie Kirk’s Life and Mission

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[Music] I mean, think of Charlie's life being ended in the way it has. And what if it does

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turn into millions, literally of millions of people being stiffened in their spiritual spine,

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to speak boldly about truth, to love people that seem unlovable. And what I mean, what an impact

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his life will have had even though it only lasted 31 years. And I think for all of us as Christians,

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we need to understand the bigger context of what God is doing. [Music] Uh Brent and Gabe, welcome

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to Focus on the Family. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to be with you,

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Jim. Hey, uh this is a heavy note given what's taking place. Charlie Kirk, he was one of a kind.

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you know, he was young, he was entrepreneurial, uh he was a believer. He was trying to take

Chapter 2: Boldness, Spiritual Warfare, and Loving Enemies

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those thoughts and ideas into really a fire fiery furnace into college campuses and speak

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to students about what they believed. Uh I think his tour was often the banner was prove me wrong

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and people would step to the mic and go after it when it came to social issues uh to a degree the

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political landscape. But how would you summarize and perhaps what impressed each of you? Uh Brandt,

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I'll start with you with Charlie Kirk. Well, what I heard from some of his friends was that he just kept getting better at what he was doing over time. And I think that's really interesting.

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He was so young and I just recently heard an interview with him with I just heard a bit on social media of him with with Tucker Carlson and Tucker was like, "How does this not drive you

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crazy all this stuff that's happening?" He's like, "It doesn't drive me crazy cuz I expect it. We're in a spiritual battle." And he started talking about this spiritual battle we're in and loving

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our enemies. I'm like, "I don't know that at 31 I could have gotten close to that." You know,

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good point. So, he had I think he had to reflect on that when you're when you're dealing with people who hate you all the time and then you're but you're trying to return it with love. You get

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better at it over time and you also learn, wait a second, I'm up against something here that's not

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just flesh and blood. And that actually allows you to love your enemies better when you when you keep that in mind. So that's one of the things that jumps out at me about him. Yeah. How about you,

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Gabe? Yeah. For me, I mean, his biblical testimony clearly, he had this political aim to mobilize

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people, you know, into a conservative movement uh for voting, elections, to elect those that

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represent their values and views. But when I think about him as a biblical man who died for his faith

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and those those views and convictions he had, he was willing to apply them to our current culture

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and to say if we really believe this, then these are the ways in which you would apply it to civil

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society. And you know, I also was inspired, you know, when I think about his life and how

Chapter 3: Debating with Grace: Charlie’s Approach on Campus

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studied he was, right? It's like second Timothy talks about study to show thyself approved. a workman not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I mean, that's what he represented

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also in 1 Peter 3 where it describes be the kind of person that's able to answer any question and

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do it with courteousness and respect. And when you watch him, especially in these latter years,

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his goal was to show respect to each person, to show dignity to every human being, he understood

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that he was debating ideas, not people. And I think this is something we all have to keep alive

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as we move forward in in a divided moment is that we're always, as Brandt said, we're we're debating

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something that is is beyond just the natural. This is supernatural. And so to be prepared for

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those moments and then to engage in that type of way is a way in which you see what it inspires in

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so many of us. you know, one of the I think most profound interactions and I've seen hundreds if not thousands of his interactions on campus, of course on YouTube or actually you can go and watch

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those discussions, those debates, etc. But it was a gender dysphoric student that stepped up and she

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was 20 years old and she was talking about how she since she was in third grade struggled with her her gender and he said, first of all, thank you for coming up to the mic. It took a lot of

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courage to be there. And he said second of all and her question was around whether she should move forward with hormone treatments and other things like that. And he said so tenderly he said you

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know before you introduce chemicals into your body I would encourage you and most people may not tell

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you this but I would encourage you to work on your mental health. Uh first find people who love you

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find counselors who can talk with you. So that the goal would be, at least the way I see you today,

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that somehow, and I think it's through a relationship with Christ, that you would love your body and not be at war with your body. And I thought, wow, that is powerful.

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There was no emotion. There was no hatred in it. It was just like heartfelt reasonleness to say,

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you you're born into a female gender. God planned for that. How can we get you to a point where you

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can embrace that rather than fight and be at war with it? And I mean, the audience just went quiet

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because it was so palpable. But that's the kind of person I saw in Charlie Kirk. He he he was not

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Sometimes he was sarcastic humorously. But for the most part, when it was that serious, he was

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up to the task of meeting the moment spiritually, emotionally, intellectually in a way that he did,

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Brent. He really honed that skill. Yeah. And so this is one of the tough things about this is

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because I think he's an imperfect person. We know that. But even if you're perfect,

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even if you responded perfectly to every single person like that, like that's such a great way. Even we like to think, well, if I'm compassionate, if I love my enemies, if I say the right thing,

Chapter 4: Boldness with Brokenness: A Christian Model

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if I'm wise, they'll understand at some level and they'll realize, wow, this guy actually loves me

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and they won't hurt me. But that's not true. That's not true. That the being hurt or being

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injured in this world is like Jesus is saying like he himself was perfect and look what happened.

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So we have to understand that we're not going to be understood by everybody or maybe many people.

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Jesus is up there on the cross with just a couple people left. And the other posture that Jesus has

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too is remarkably we have to have this. They don't know what they're doing. Yeah. forgive them for

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they don't know. I mean, that is a very difficult posture to have when you see the stuff in the comment threads that it's very difficult and yet that's his posture towards us as sinners. Uh so

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I have to keep reminding myself of that. But it's tough because you think if you're going to answer like that that people are going to go Eureka love, but that's not necessarily how it works out. Yeah.

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Yeah. I think um you know when I look at the way he postured himself and and a lot of people now are talking about feeling this increased need for more boldness uh that there was something about

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Charlie Kirk that makes all of us want to speak up more have courage but I think we want to process

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through what does wisdom look like in boldness you know boldness is not a fruit of the spirit but boldness is what took place in Acts 4 when people were filled with the Holy Spirit so there's

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something to understand there and I think my friends David and Jason Benham they wrote a book on where I thought they described this perfectly where boldness without brokenness creates a bully

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and we've seen a lot of that like we're just bold we're brash but I think in the description in the story you just told Jim what you saw is somebody who was bold with with truth but they

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were broken there was a broken heart about the way in which sin and the demonic has moved in and has

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captured people's minds their bodies this entire arena of cultural dialogue and conversation and

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and he did that Now, if we're just broken, but we're not bold, then we become bystanders and we don't do anything. And and so the the beauty of this is when you're bold, but you're broken,

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you create a bridge that allows people to have an opportunity to actually see God. And I think as we move forward in these conversations, this is going to be an important topic for us to land

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on. What is the balance here of boldness, but also brokenness? I appreciate that because I think it's odd in the human makeup. We tend to be a light switch. We're either this way or that way.

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uh we're not on a dimmer switch emotionally where we can move with wisdom in the conversations that we're having. And I think that's part of it and that's the thing we need to learn out of

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this experience is how do we keep the wretched man down within each of us. I felt anger. I felt you

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know I wanted to punch back me metaphorically. I'm thinking what are these people doing taking this

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young man's life? Yet the spirit of God is saying this is, as you said, Brent, this is part of what

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you're going to encounter as a believer. Let let me read something from Peggy Nan and get your response. And Gabe, we'll start with you on this, but um Peggy Nan wrote this. The assassination of

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Charlie Kirk feels different as an event, like a hinge point, like something that's going to

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reverberate in dark ways. It isn't just another dreadful thing. It carries the ominous sense that

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we're at the beginning of something bad. I would say that's probably a fair assessment. But how

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like Erica, his brave widow, who got up a couple of evenings later and went and did a a press

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presentation talking to the the United States saying, "My husband's memory is not going to be

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snuffed out. it will rise up and be stronger in essence and evil is not going to achieve

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its means. So with Peggy's comment and his again his widow's comment about what they've unleashed,

Chapter 5: Turning Tragedy into Good: Erika Kirk’s Testimony

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what does that look like to turn this thing that was meant for evil into something good. Yeah,

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I think Peggy's words are sobering and and we're told throughout the New Testament to be alert, to be sober minded, to understand what does it mean to endure patiently, which means you're going

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to be in environments just like the church was throughout all of the early centuries and and even up until recent western culture where they were at odds with the dominant ideas of the culture and

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did live in fear that those ideas could get them killed. I mean, that's why we have the stories of the martyrs, right? that go all the way back Polycarp, you know, at age 86 being burned at the

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stake because he refused to remove himself from the identifying with Christ. And so the darkness,

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it reminds me of Isaiah 59. I love to read this passage 14-15. It says, "Justice is turned back

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and righteousness stands far away for truth has stumbled in the public squares and uprightness

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cannot enter. truth is lacking and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. It does describe

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an environment, a public square, a culture where when truth is entering this space where there is

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the demonic, where there is a lot of evildoing, where things that are good are being called evil and things that are evil have been set up to be good. That the person who's willing to stand in

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that gap makes himself a prey. And yet we also just like Charlie cannot have a fear of man. We have to understand as he did our life is surrendered to him. He's called us. The most

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important thing we could do is continue to advance truth because what we saw happening with the next generation and I think we're going to continue to see with the next generation is they were

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responding to Charlie because he was willing to tell the truth in a world where they've grown up with lies where they've grown up with people parents even that weren't willing to call sin

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sin call good good help them define and rightly divide what is truth. And because he was willing

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to do that, these kids understand. They respond. They go, "Thank you. Please, thank you for just being honest with us." Because there's something about that, the eternity that's set within the

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hearts of men that does respond when somebody puts forward what is true. And so, I'm also hopeful

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about all that's going to take place in the days. I was with Michael W. Smith a couple nights ago. We had a vigil here in Franklin, Tennessee. And and I was sobered by what he said. He said, "I've

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I've been in this the Christian world, right? I've been all over the world for decades. And he says,

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I've never quite seen a moment like this. I've never seen a man gunned down like this for his for his beliefs. And I've also never seen a response like we are right in the middle of

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right now. And so there's a hopefulness with it, but there's also a sobermindedness. It's true. Let

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me let me introduce something that really caught my attention. And this was the governor of Utah,

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Spencer Cox, who made some profound statements on the day of the shooting. Let's play this clip.

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And I just uh Brandt, we'll start with you. Just give your response after the clip. Nothing I say

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can unite us as a country. Nothing I can say right now can fix what is broken. Nothing I can say can

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bring back Charlie Kirk. Our hearts are broken. We mourn with his wife, his children, his family,

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his friends. We mourn as a nation. If anyone in the sound of my voice celebrated even a little

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bit at the news of this shooting, I would beg you to look in the mirror and to see if you can find a

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better angel in there somewhere. I don't care what his politics are. I care that he was an American.

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We desperately need our country. We desperately need leaders in our country. But more than the

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leaders, we just need every single person in this country to think about where we are and

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where we want to be. to ask ourselves, is this is this it? Is this what 250 years has wrought

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on us? I pray that that's not the case. I pray that those who hated what Charlie Cook stood for

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will put down their social media and their pens and pray for his family.

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and that all of us all of us will try to find a way to stop hating our fellow Americans. Brent,

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well, that's that's beautifully put and I would say I think something similar if I was in his situation. I will say this personally. I don't think the Charlie Kirk assassination

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is the start of something. I think it's things coming to fruition, ideas that have percolated

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for a long time. And you can see that from the reactions. And I can't control those reactions.

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They're awful. Um I it's in in one way it's like I can't believe we're we're dealing with this. But

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on the other hand, I sort of can. I've seen the ideologies shape up as they have. I've seen half

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of Americans routinely called Nazis or fascists or whatnot. Like the that that can't hold. So,

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I want to say this that I'm not super optimistic about those people um seeing the light. Some will,

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but there's a there's another scripture and I think this I think I got to hold on to this and I think maybe a lot of people listening need to hold on to it too. When Jeremiah is watching his whole

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nation go down and he he wrote Lamentations, he's chronicling this awful stuff that's happening and

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he's watching this just turn into dirt. Jerusalem is being run over and that and horrible things

Chapter 6: Responding to Hatred with Hope and Trust in God

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are happening. And then he says, "Yet this I call to mind. Because of the Lord's great love for us,

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we are not consumed." And then he talks about his mercies being new every morning and his

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faithfulness endures forever. I think I've got we have to camp out on that when when news isn't

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good that ultimately our security is with God and he can say yet even now with all this stuff

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that's going on yet you know what I call I have to actually call this to mind. I can't just passively

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consume lots of media. I have to call this to mind. God is good and it like his his love endures

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forever. his faithfulness. Now, this is again, it's written in a time when he's seeing this all go down. So, even if you're not optimistic about everybody turning around and we're going to get

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this like that to me is incredibly important for those of us who know him to continue to actively

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remind ourselves of that kind of truth. Is that if that makes sense? Oh, it does. Gabe, thoughts

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on that clip? Yeah, I think what the governor was asking for is for everybody to immediately stop

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the way they think about the world based on the culture they've been saturated in. And I'm hopeful

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that some will do that. I I think though like Brent if we don't go back to understand how did we

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get here and we don't actually start rebuilding um in in the institutions that we have the colleges

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the the ways in which our culture talks about things you know I think of things like violence

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for example like we've we've changed words and and we've essentially now equated speech as something

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that's violent and a new generation has grown up believing that your speech can be violent. Now,

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certainly there's some speech that could incite violence, but but I think when you start to equate speech and words and free speech and opinions and thoughts as potentially violent because they hurt

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you personally, you feel hurt when you hear them because you don't agree with them. That starts to equate a false equivalency in people's minds that believes I'm going to meet your violence of words

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with my violence of physical threat. Now, that all comes from a a generation that's grown up in

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an emotive world that said your feelings are what tell you what's true or not in the world and have

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started to change the definition of words. And once you start changing the definition of words,

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you find yourself now in a malaise of people being confused, of people feeling justified with their

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actions of anger. And we have to work backwards now and re-educate. Jonathan Height wrote a great

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piece in 2017 specifically warning about this. I mean, this was eight years ago saying we must not

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equate speech to violence. Yeah. And you can see the fruit of that type of thinking. Well,

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in fact, that's something I saw in a news clip. I think the the gentleman was Tim P who's written

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about algorithms and the way in 2008 uh social media platforms found that the fastest way to

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get something shared is through anger. And so they begin to juice algorithms to send you things that

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made you angry because you were more likely to share those. We've got to be aware of the tactics

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that are being used, particularly with social media platforms to shape our behavior. I was just

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talking to my two 20some boys last night thinking it's odd to feel like an animal, like a monkey.

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They've reduc reduced us down to algorithms that they know what to push to me to push my buttons.

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And we've got to be smarter than they are. And it might be informative, but you've got to find

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sources of information that are as true as you can find. And don't allow them to, I would say,

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juice the negative side of your humanity. And that's going to be hard for us to do,

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I think. And yet, that's one of the things we need to do. Well, you're right that anger travels

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better. They've done studies about this multiple times. And the thing is like on a X or Twitter,

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we know this. If you tweet something angry, it'll get retweeted. If you post something beautiful and

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poetic and true and profound, maybe your brother will click like. That'll be about it. But it's like that that's just the nature of who we are. It feeds into our self-righteousness,

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too. I think that's the trick here, too. It's completely natural to feel anger in response to

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something like this. But the biblical wisdom is we have to get rid of it. Like we got to get rid of it before the sun goes down. We have to get rid of all anger. It's anger is not part of the fruit

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of the spirit either. Like this is something that will actually kill you. It'll hurt your relationships with your family. It'll hurt your relationships with people around you. Like but

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we think we should cling to it. We shouldn't. And I think the praying for your enemies thing is everything Jesus says is so genius. with the praying for your enemies thing. If you do that,

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you will feel your temperature dropping as you go. It gives you Yes, you'll be you'll be able to do

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this. Now, it's hard at first, but you can become the sort of person who does it. And over time, your character gets shaped. But this is not an option. If you're somebody who's a believer,

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praying for your enemies is just is not like something you might want to do. We don't have a choice. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. You know, we just released and you two may not have seen it

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yet, but we'll send it to you if we haven't. But it's all free, but something called Truth Rising.

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And it's a documentary, 90minute documentary. It starts off with a really a history lesson from Oz

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Guinness about Western civilization, the formation of it, the reliance on Judeo-Christian values,

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biblical truth, etc. And I think it's Baroness Straoud who in the film mentions that the

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distinction with Western civilization in the early stages was that they embraced the concept

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the biblical concept that everyone is made in God's image and that for that reason and that

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reason alone everyone deserves respect. It lifted women up. It lifted children up. Um it certainly

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had things the church had to work out further obviously but it was that realization that the

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human being is made in God's image and one of the things you're seeing now I think in some of the

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debates the dehumanizing uh I think starting with abortion frankly and moving to euthanasia what Dr.

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Francis Schaefer talked about back in the 70s as a warning about abortion is coming to pass

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that it's becoming a dehumanizing tool that we don't even think what we're doing to one

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another now because yeah it's just biological and we're so far away from that theme in Truth

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Rising about everyone being made in his image. Uh Gabe, what are your thoughts in that regard?

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Well, I think what Charlie represented so well as he walked into these environments where clearly he

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was being opposed by or at least he welcomed those who opposed him most to to be in conversation with

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him was that he had such a clarity that God does exist. Like this basic truth that there is a God.

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I will be accountable to this God. God's given us a moral order and he's also given us direction on

Chapter 7: The Spiritual Battle Behind Cultural Division

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how to live a life that leads to flourishing not just for me but for my neighbors, my community, my city, my nation. And when you don't start with that premise that there is a God, you obviously

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have to come up with all kinds of other directions and gods that are telling you what you think is

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right, true, um, and just. And therefore, the conflict comes. And that is just the spiritual battle we've had from the beginning. I mean, the Babylon spirit that's existed from the beginning

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of Genesis that wanted to make other gods conflicting with the kingdom of God. And that's

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what we're seeing on full display is righteousness that is speaking truth uh towards towards a world

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that doesn't believe there's any code for righteousness. And that right is what they see in their own eyes just like in the days of Noah. And so I think I think we're in the middle of that

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type of a conflict that goes so much higher than just us at the human level. But it is based on

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this principle that if you don't believe a god exists, then like you said, we are essentially

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going to be like animals. We don't have any reason to act differently. That's so interesting. And I

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honestly think, I don't know about you guys, but I honestly think like if I was an atheist, but open-minded and fair, I would start to get the message that evil is a foot somehow spiritually.

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Like even just studying anthropology or history, why do we sacrifice children on all continents

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24 minutes, 27 seconds

throughout thousands of years and all these different cultures? What in the world? What's up with Why? It sure seems like there's something spiritual that hates humans because we're image

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24 minutes, 37 seconds

bearsers. Like he hates humans. He hates children. He hates anything that makes children. He hates

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24 minutes, 44 seconds

like all of these institutions. like that doesn't make any sense absent the actual spiritual battle that's going on. None of this makes any sense. I just I think that evil is is becoming very

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24 minutes, 55 seconds

emboldened and making itself very obvious. And I honestly think that for some people maybe that's becoming so obvious that they might have to go wait a second. There's something going on here

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25 minutes, 3 seconds

that's not just not just material if that makes any sense. You know always tends to overplay its

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25 minutes, 10 seconds

hand. Right. Jee right. you see you see it push so far and you're already seeing that response over

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25 minutes, 16 seconds

the last week of of evil not winning the day. Um and that love and goodness and righteousness

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25 minutes, 23 seconds

will win this day. And I think that should be an encouragement to all of us every time we see these moments happen that God's in the work here and he will turn this towards good. Sometimes

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25 minutes, 33 seconds

that's hard to see, Gabe, but it's so true and I wholeheartedly believe that. I really do. And I've

25:39

25 minutes, 39 seconds

seen it work in my own life. I've seen it work in globally. Um, you know, it's interesting. I

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25 minutes, 45 seconds

just returned from Hungary. I was in Budapest and I was talking to a woman who was doing a tour with

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25 minutes, 50 seconds

Gan and I and she was asking me questions like, "What is going on with your college campuses? Send

25:56

25 minutes, 56 seconds

them to us. We will tell them what it's like to live in an authoritarian government." She said,

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26 minutes, 2 seconds

"My dad told a political joke back in the 80s when the Soviets controlled Hungary." and she said they

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26 minutes, 8 seconds

got a knock at the door the next night and he was arrested and put in jail for like 5 years for

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26 minutes, 13 seconds

telling a political joke. And you know, it's it's uh a sad thing to think that human beings want

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26 minutes, 21 seconds

desperately to control other human beings like that. But it's almost as if they're blinded. Those

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26 minutes, 26 seconds

on the left that cannot see this, that they don't realize that they are the authoritarians. They're

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26 minutes, 31 seconds

the ones that are dictating speech. And I I think I just want to make this point. The very essence

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26 minutes, 38 seconds

of doing what they did or certainly what this shooter did allegedly to uh Charlie Kirk, it's to

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26 minutes, 46 seconds

silence him. It's to put him out so that you don't hear what he has to say. He wasn't a violent man,

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26 minutes, 52 seconds

Charlie Kirk. He's showing up sitting in a chair on a campus and talking about core themes, most

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26 minutes, 57 seconds

of them theological, biblical themes about human sexuality, about abortion, and they just cannot

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27 minutes, 5 seconds

tolerate that. Do we simply get cowtowed by that intimidation that if I say something, they could

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27 minutes, 12 seconds

kill me? I think Jesus is saying, stand for the truth. Do it winsomely. Do it with grace. Do it

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27 minutes, 19 seconds

with a peaceful heart. But when you do it, there could be consequences. Yeah. I think understanding

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27 minutes, 24 seconds

that the pattern here with this current society we're in and all totalitarian environments and and

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27 minutes, 30 seconds

tyrannical governments is that first they start by, you know, marginalizing your words. You know,

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27 minutes, 36 seconds

then it moves to demonizing your words and then ultimately ultimately it's criminalizing your words. And that's really the state that we're in is words mattering that much that they need to be

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27 minutes, 46 seconds

criminalized because we can't debate on the basis and the merit of ideas, but essentially it's it's

27:52

27 minutes, 52 seconds

based on you aligning with whatever the power structure says you have to say. And so, Jim, to your point, we must as Christians continue to stand up in the public square, speak truth

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28 minutes, 2 seconds

in love, but address these areas where we see the demise of our society because we love and were

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28 minutes, 8 seconds

broken for human beings who we see suffering from the consequences of of horrible ideas. That's got

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28 minutes, 15 seconds

to be the motivation. I'm glad you included that, Gabe, at the end because I was going to get back to your point about brokenness. Like, we're on we're we're rooting for you. Even if you're not

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28 minutes, 23 seconds

rooting for yourself, we're for you. Even if you want to take it out on us and because we love you.

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28 minutes, 30 seconds

We love our enemies. We're very different that way. Christians are odd, aren't they? I mean, this is who else does that? But we're going to do it. Hey, Gabe, I'll point this to you. Jenzers

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28 minutes, 39 seconds

believe political violence is never justified, which means 44% of Jenzers are saying political

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28 minutes, 47 seconds

violence is justified. How what's your reaction to that, Gabe? I mean it seems a little breathtaking.

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28 minutes, 52 seconds

I mean that's an it is it's an alarming stat. I I read that 93% of baby boomers you know juxtaposed

28:59

28 minutes, 59 seconds

to that you know do believe political violence is wrong. And so you can just see a world view shift

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29 minutes, 4 seconds

in the next generation. And part of that has been the softening of our words and understanding what

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29 minutes, 11 seconds

words mean. We've been told this generation for over a decade that speech is violence and that if you hear something that hurts you or harms you, um that perhaps you need to leave and be in what

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29 minutes, 21 seconds

they call a safe space. Um all of this built around trying to protect a a a generation that

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29 minutes, 28 seconds

should be growing up in a world where they learn how to debate their ideas and have conversation around these ideas, much like we saw Charlie Kirk trying to do. They've grown up being told,

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29 minutes, 36 seconds

"If you don't like an idea, you run from it. And if you don't like the person stating that idea, they're your enemy. And their words are just as violent as what we've always known violence to be,

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29 minutes, 47 seconds

something that's an act of physical violence. And so we see just in the assassination of Charlie

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29 minutes, 52 seconds

Kirk where this plays out where um the alleged shooter, you know, a young man, as we keep

29:58

29 minutes, 58 seconds

learning more, there's the potential that it's literally about him thinking his violence was

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30 minutes, 3 seconds

meeting Charlie's word violence. So, we must get clear on these words that speech is not violence.

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30 minutes, 10 seconds

And the next generation is learning that, but they're going to have to relearn that because they've been indoctrinated with false beliefs about how to engage a public square that don't

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30 minutes, 21 seconds

work in a civil society. You know, Brandt, one of the things that Charlie Kirk talked about is the need to communicate with one another, people who oppose each other. When you talk about things,

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30 minutes, 32 seconds

when you meet at the microphone like he was doing, it actually is a good thing because persuasion

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30 minutes, 37 seconds

happens, ideas are talked about, dialogue occurs. There's something in the way we're wired as human

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30 minutes, 43 seconds

beings made in God's image that relationship matters. That we need totally we need this kind

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30 minutes, 49 seconds

of connection in order to get to a better place. But there are people in the culture, as Gabe

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30 minutes, 54 seconds

is saying, who can't tolerate an opinion that's opposed to mine. And the way we're gonna deal with

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31 minutes

it is with violence or threats of violence. And it's just, wow, how do human beings that coexist,

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31 minutes, 6 seconds

you know, all those nice little bumper stickers, how do we actually coexist when you can't speak

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31 minutes, 11 seconds

what you think? And that's unhealthy. So that is extremely unhealthy. I can't control all of that.

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31 minutes, 18 seconds

I think it's important for all of us to realize like I can I can identify problems ideologically in our culture that that are virilent and horrible. Um, but I have to think of my own

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31 minutes, 28 seconds

life. It's very true that relationship is actually pretty much the only thing honestly that convinces people. I mean, that's to refer to Jonathan Height again. He talks about the elephant in

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31 minutes, 38 seconds

the writer analogy where he's like the elephant, you know, thinks it's or the elephant's actually

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31 minutes, 43 seconds

in control. We think we're in control, but the elephant is our emotions and our intuitions and

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31 minutes, 49 seconds

the writer is reason. And he says, "We all like to think we're reasonable people, but it's really emotional stuff." And you can't change that emotional stuff with just facts and figures.

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31 minutes, 59 seconds

They won't listen to you as a general rule. But he said, this is where the hopeful part starts.

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32 minutes, 4 seconds

He said the only thing that gets that elephant to start to turn is relationships. [Music] That's

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32 minutes, 11 seconds

it. And it's interesting the reactions to Charlie Kirk that I've seen from people who are ideologically opposed to the things that he believed. But there universally it's like, "But

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32 minutes, 21 seconds

this guy was really cool." They're saying, "I met him. I hung out with him. who's actually a really great guy. And I think that's interesting to hear that the people who actually met him. When we keep

32:31

32 minutes, 31 seconds

people human in front of us, it's a different deal. So when you deal with your neighbors, they might have a very difficult time. They might say, "I've heard horrible things about Christians,

32:41

32 minutes, 41 seconds

for instance, but dog on it, that they're pretty cool down the street. They actually love me." It's

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32 minutes, 47 seconds

it's a it's about the only way to actually change people's minds. You know, it's interesting. Uh Rob

32:53

32 minutes, 53 seconds

Kurt Patrick, our executive producer, sent me a um a meme of a guy who was not highly educated,

33:00

33 minutes

had never owned a suit. And it's him doing a little Tik Tok in his looked like his backyard

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33 minutes, 5 seconds

just saying, "You know what?" He's standing in a suit and he's saying, "You know what? My wife, we're making a little more money now and my wife bought me this suit. I've never owned a suit,

33:15

33 minutes, 15 seconds

but I'm going to go to church on Sunday. And I'm going to go to church on Sunday because of Charlie Kirk." And I don't know that guy well, but he seemed to stand for things that

33:23

33 minutes, 23 seconds

are right. And then the phone drops and he uses an explicative and then corrects himself, which was,

33:29

33 minutes, 29 seconds

you know, keeping with his world understanding. And he just set it up and he said, "I feel more

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33 minutes, 35 seconds

dignity today than I used to feel." That's what the gospel delivers. Yeah. I'm hearing stories,

33:41

33 minutes, 41 seconds

Jim, of um friends, you know, I just saw a text from a friend who said, "Hey, I haven't been in a church in 20 years. I'm a gay man. I didn't know I'd be welcome in a church. I I'm kind of afraid

33:51

33 minutes, 51 seconds

of going to the church, but the the activities of these last week have led me to want to step foot in church again and reexplore what a relationship with God looks like. I mean, that's the power of

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34 minutes, 1 second

the spirit moving through a tragic, awful event to begin to turn people's hearts to at least pay

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34 minutes, 8 seconds

attention like maybe there's something different I haven't heard before. Maybe there's a better way. And you think about Charlie Kirk. I mean, some people had followed him and listened to him,

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34 minutes, 16 seconds

but a lot of people wouldn't have known anything about what Charlie Kirk talked about, but you think about how many more tens of millions of people now are listening to him communicate his

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34 minutes, 27 seconds

worldview. And also, you know, one of the things I love, Jim, about his mission is he said, "Look, my number one mission is to win as many people to Jesus as as we can." Like, that's what every

34:37

34 minutes, 37 seconds

Christian should be doing is trying to win one to to Christ. But the second part of that mission is to make sure it's possible for people to come to Christ, which was speaking to his concern and

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34 minutes, 47 seconds

care for religious liberty and the protection that we need in our society to be able to talk freely about these ideas. And so th those are the encouraging signs on the back of something that's

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34 minutes, 57 seconds

been awful and horrific where I think we can draw hope and see the spirit of God's moving. I'm talking to pastors today who said their services were packed this past Sunday. M more and more

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35 minutes, 8 seconds

people, young people, because Erica Kirk got on, right? And that was the one thing she said. She said, "Find a church this weekend and go." And I think your testimony of this gentleman doing

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35 minutes, 17 seconds

that is is someone literally just inviting him, saying, "Hey, go just check it out. Give Jesus a

35:22

35 minutes, 22 seconds

second chance. Take a look at what he claims and how that might impact your life positively." Boy,

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35 minutes, 28 seconds

that's so good and so right. Brandt, you wrote the book Unoffendable. In fact, you talk about one thing you can change that'll help you. What was your goal there with that promise? Well, to

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35 minutes, 39 seconds

talk it's honestly it's disciplehip. It's a it's it's actually loving your enemies and the the idea

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35 minutes, 46 seconds

that you don't cling to your anger frees you to be a different sort of person. So that kind of has to

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35 minutes, 52 seconds

do with your last question what Gabe was talking about. I would add like some people are absolutely equipped and called and gifted to go campus to campus and engage people one after the other.

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36 minutes, 2 seconds

A lot of people are not. That's just not going to be their thing. The question is, are you going to actually love your enemies? To me, like and and so the biggest thing that we could do positively for

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36 minutes, 14 seconds

church is to make disciples of Jesus, teaching them to obey the things he's commanded. That was like that's the whole thing. But if we don't actually actively teach people how to love your

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36 minutes, 24 seconds

enemy, how do I pray for people who are driving me crazy? Yeah, you could do this. You could say on Tuesday night 6:30, come to the church. We're going to teach you how to love your enemies. we're

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36 minutes, 32 seconds

going to teach you how to forgive people who don't deserve it. Like that's that's actually making disciples. And I feel like we haven't talked about that a whole lot. And so, uh, but the best thing

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36 minutes, 42 seconds

for the world that we could do would be have a bunch of people who are becoming more like Jesus and their personalities are being transformed by actually learning how to do the stuff that

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36 minutes, 50 seconds

Jesus told us to do. You know, it's amazing as a sermon title. You're right. I've never heard somebody preach on that that sermon title. And that's a that's basic Jesus stuff, right? So

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36 minutes, 59 seconds

that's absolutely confounding to me. And if people say, "Well, I'm going to go to heaven when I die."

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37 minutes, 5 seconds

Okay, that's cool. But Jesus is giving us a way to live right now. Yeah. Like this this eternal

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37 minutes, 12 seconds

life begins now. And he wants to shape us. So it teach people how to forgive your enemies and we'll see people like growing up and it's it's something we can actually do. In addition to that,

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37 minutes, 22 seconds

I want to pick up on what both of you talked about a moment ago. You know, another thing that we do is RVL Ray Vanderlon disciplehip and we did that the world may know. I mean, it is so much content.

37:33

37 minutes, 33 seconds

Of course, Rey is an expert in Judaism and kind of reads the scripture through Jewish eyes and

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37 minutes, 39 seconds

helps Westerners better understand what is being said. And I'm going to have the team link to a

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37 minutes, 45 seconds

free episode. They're like 15-minute devotionals. Gene and I do them every morning. And the other morning, we read or listened to one called the Kohl's. And in there he's talking about Romans

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37 minutes, 55 seconds

12 where Jesus is talking about heaping burning coals on your enemy by loving them and doing the

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38 minutes, 2 seconds

things we've been talking about. So many of us in the West interpret that as retribution. Yeah. Heap

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38 minutes, 8 seconds

coals on those burning coals on their head. And Rey is saying no burning coals represented God's

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38 minutes, 15 seconds

presence. What that scripture is talking about is treat people correctly, kindly, with grace,

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38 minutes, 22 seconds

and truth. And in so doing, you are heaping God's presence onto them. And I know, Gabe,

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38 minutes, 29 seconds

as you've gone about, you and I have talked about engaging the LGBTQ community. That's the spiritual

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38 minutes, 34 seconds

dynamic of what's being done. To show kindness, to show dialogue, to talk with them, hopefully

38:41

38 minutes, 41 seconds

u ask questions, as you said, that are going to make them think a little differently about why we

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38 minutes, 46 seconds

say and do what we do. And in so doing, you're heaping burning coals on them, the presence of

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38 minutes, 53 seconds

God onto them. They can't walk away unchanged from that discussion. They may still disagree with you,

39:00

39 minutes

but they'll have a little different attitude most likely if the Holy Spirit, I know, is working in

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39 minutes, 5 seconds

that. So speak to that, Gabe. I mean, it it's a beautiful way to understand scripture. Well, and I think Paul is such a good example of all of this. I mean, here here's someone as an apostle

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39 minutes, 15 seconds

who goes out and essentially is confronting the ideas of the age. I mean, you think about his famous Smarts Hill, you know, speech that he gives after walking around Athens, likely being

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39 minutes, 26 seconds

confronted with all kinds of wickedness, statues, um, all kinds of ludess. And what is Paul? Is

39:32

39 minutes, 32 seconds

he offended by all of that? Is he offended by the way that the world is living its life? No, he's provoked. And, and this is a posture that I think we as Christians must take on in this age is

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39 minutes, 42 seconds

we must be provoked, not offended. We shouldn't be offended by the way sin runs a muck in the world. We should be provoked to engage it, to engage its ideologies, to engage the people who

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39 minutes, 53 seconds

we care about because we're broken for how much wickedness and sin is corrupting their life. And here we see in Paul's example, he speaks to them by acknowledging the ideas they've believed in

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40 minutes, 2 seconds

and and how the thing that's deep in their heart, the eternity that's set in every person's heart is pursuing something. It's pursuing a true God, but they've missed it. And he delivers to them

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40 minutes, 11 seconds

and helps them understand here is who our true God is. And you can't do that. You can't have

40:16

40 minutes, 16 seconds

those conversations if first you're not aware of the dialogue and the current cultural issues and conversations that our friends are having and our kids are having. But once you're aware of that,

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40 minutes, 26 seconds

you then must be provoked to engage it. Not to back away, not to avoid, but to engage. And I think again when we think about Charlie Kirk's example, that's what he did. He was provoked. He

40:35

40 minutes, 35 seconds

wasn't offended by anything anybody believed. You know that and have a conversation. Yeah, that example of Paul amazes me how articulate Paul is, how he writes, etc. But they refer to him as a

40:46

40 minutes, 46 seconds

babbler. Who is this babbler in front of us? I'm thinking, "Wow, if that's a treatment Paul got,

40:52

40 minutes, 52 seconds

that's pretty stern." Well, we're covering so much today on Focus on the Family with Jim Dailyaly. If

40:59

40 minutes, 59 seconds

this uh conversation is connecting with you and equipping you, if it's offering you some hope,

41:05

41 minutes, 5 seconds

uh then please click subscribe below and tell about this episode uh to another friend. And

41:12

41 minutes, 12 seconds

uh I'm feeling I'm feeling energized and you guys are empowering me. And so just on behalf of some

41:17

41 minutes, 17 seconds

listener who perhaps is thinking this uh Brandt, I want to do what you guys are saying. I don't feel

41:24

41 minutes, 24 seconds

like I'm intellectually equipped. Um I feel like I might get rejected. I can't I I don't know. I'm

41:31

41 minutes, 31 seconds

just afraid right now of maybe even stepping into something that is going to lead to a disagreement and I can't control it. So motivate me. Help me help me get past that fear. Something about Jesus

41:41

41 minutes, 41 seconds

you may not have noticed is he's very relaxed. He knows he is he knows how this all ends. He said

41:48

41 minutes, 48 seconds

we can be of good cheer. Like even in the big picture and something Paul wrote too which is

41:54

41 minutes, 54 seconds

really interesting because his c his culture was crazy. He ends up losing his life because of what

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42 minutes

he believes and what he says. It's like he he told them be ready to have a reason when you're asked

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42 minutes, 7 seconds

for the hope that you have. because the culture is nuts, but you're going to be the hopeful ones in the midst of all of this garbage. And he's not he's not denying all the all the chaos that's

42:18

42 minutes, 18 seconds

going on. He's just saying naturally people are going to want to know why are you so hopeful. Like that's really something to me. Like that's really interesting. I hope I hope uh that we're

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42 minutes, 28 seconds

people of hope even in the midst of this stuff that you have a sense of well-being regardless of

42:33

42 minutes, 33 seconds

what's happening around you because you know that God's character can ultimately be trusted even if

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42 minutes, 40 seconds

you don't understand all the stuff that's going on. So I think that's going to increasingly speak to people in ways that are so powerful when we're the non- anxious presence in our neighborhoods and

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42 minutes, 50 seconds

communities. We're the ones who aren't freaking out no matter what. We're not the angry voices. Why are you so hopeful? What's going on? Can't you see the whole culture is in flames? Oh,

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42 minutes, 58 seconds

yeah. I can see, but I know more. And I I' know enough to trust the goodness of God.

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43 minutes, 5 seconds

I' I've learned enough about him in my life to trust him. I think people are going to be very dialed into that. And we need to be ready to have a reason when they ask us for the hope we have.

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43 minutes, 13 seconds

You know, I was so impressed by Erica, Charlie Kirk's widow, just a couple of days after being

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43 minutes, 18 seconds

assassinated, being able to get on TV and talk to the nation. And I mean, her courage about that,

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43 minutes, 26 seconds

that's the presence of God in someone's life. And I think, you know, in many ways,

43:31

43 minutes, 31 seconds

even as you hear some of Charlie Kirk's comments foretelling, if something should happen to me,

43:37

43 minutes, 37 seconds

carry on. The Lord will use it. I mean, he almost knew that something could happen to him. And those

43:44

43 minutes, 44 seconds

clips that I've watched where he's referenced that are incredibly encouraging. And here's the

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43 minutes, 49 seconds

difference, Gabe. You know, as Christians, we are going to eternal life. Sometimes we feel that this

43:56

43 minutes, 56 seconds

is it. And we act like this is it. And we froth and we twist and we uh get angry and we don't have

Chapter 8: Final Reflections: Courage, Martyrdom, and Christian Legacy

44:03

44 minutes, 3 seconds

that presence of mind to say, "Okay, Lord, use my life as you see fit." I mean, think of Charlie's

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44 minutes, 9 seconds

life being ended in the way it has. And what if it does turn into millions, literally, of millions of

44:17

44 minutes, 17 seconds

people being stiffened in their spiritual spine to speak boldly about truth, to love people that

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44 minutes, 25 seconds

seem unlovable. And what I mean, what an impact his life will have had even though it only lasted

44:31

44 minutes, 31 seconds

31 years. And I think for all of us as Christians, we need to understand the bigger context of what

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44 minutes, 38 seconds

God is doing. I mean, he goes into heaven with, as Erica said, with that martyr's crown. What a way

44:46

44 minutes, 46 seconds

to appear in heaven off of this earth. Yeah. No, I think Jim, you're right. I think even that word

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44 minutes, 51 seconds

martyr is important for us to recognize. I mean, this is I believe in in our lifetime for sure

44:57

44 minutes, 57 seconds

and even in American life, this would be the first Christian martyr that we've witnessed a death like

45:03

45 minutes, 3 seconds

this um in front of us and in front of the whole world. Everybody had to watch it. I mean, it's amazing right now with technology how everybody's exposed to a person declaring truth and then being

45:14

45 minutes, 14 seconds

shot down. And that's what I think gripped all of us and makes us sick at our stomach and makes us see evil for what it is in that moment. But he he understood I've talked to his friends,

45:25

45 minutes, 25 seconds

people close with him who he knew that every day he went on these campuses, his life was in danger. He he understood that threat. And yet this is what it means for somebody who walks with a surrendered

45:35

45 minutes, 35 seconds

spirit to say, "I'm going to trust God with my life. I can't add one day to it. I can't take one day away from it. He knows all. And so with wisdom, I'll go forward. I'll have security teams.

45:44

45 minutes, 44 seconds

We'll we'll do the work. But I'm just going to trust him." And and I think for all of us, that's a hard thing to do. We don't want to die. But I think what we learned from the example of

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45 minutes, 53 seconds

Jesus, Paul, all of the disciples is that they had a full surrender to the fact that they were

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46 minutes

going to die and they couldn't add a day to it. And I think when we get that confidence and go, I can't add a day to my life. Let me just live with courage and boldness. Let me just speak what

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46 minutes, 9 seconds

God's put on my heart and not compromise that. Make sure the inside of what I'm feeling in my conscience is matching the outside of my words. I think that's the way in which we have to continue

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46 minutes, 17 seconds

to live. Well, and that's a really good point. They obviously irritated people because they were

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46 minutes, 22 seconds

killed for what they were saying. Uh the disciples so what they believed, what they expressed,

46:29

46 minutes, 29 seconds

people didn't like it and they killed them. And that's just part of the Christian conviction. We've got to be prepared. It's not what we want. But again, if the Lord can use it,

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46 minutes, 39 seconds

uh what an amazing service it is to the Lord to be able to reach literally millions of people.

46:45

46 minutes, 45 seconds

Um, let me ask you, Gabe, you have four questions for engaging culture effectively. Let's hit those quickly right at the end here. What are those four things that we can do to engage culture? Well,

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46 minutes, 55 seconds

it's very simple. I think we all ask these questions on a lot of other issues, but we don't always apply them to the culture. The first one we ask is, what is wrong? Simple question. What's

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47 minutes, 4 seconds

wrong in the culture? And our response ought to be to stop and confront it. When we see wickedness, when we see evil, we stop and confront it. We don't put up with it. The second question though

47:12

47 minutes, 12 seconds

is what is good? And we need to be just as good to celebrate and cultivate things in our culture that

47:18

47 minutes, 18 seconds

are good. Let's platform them. Let's put truth forward everywhere we have the opportunity. The third question is to ask what is missing. And when you have something that's missing in the world,

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47 minutes, 28 seconds

we've got to go create it and we've got to catalyze it. Uh and and we do that through our work with our hands, where we invest our dollars, our creativity. We go and create culture to change

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47 minutes, 38 seconds

it. Uh not just condemn it as Andy Crouch has said. And then finally, what's confused? And this was where I saw Charlie stepping into this moment. What is confused in our culture? What he

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47 minutes, 48 seconds

would do is clarify and compel people forward. And we're seeing the fruit of that today. Somebody who

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47 minutes, 53 seconds

clarified and compelled people around confusion to start bringing clarity. That is so good. Uh Brent,

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48 minutes

um Erica courageously reminded us that for those who love God, all things work together

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48 minutes, 6 seconds

for good for those who are called according to his purposes. Um, as we're wrapping up,

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48 minutes, 12 seconds

um, what reminders has God put on your heart to share with us? That's a big catch, but you know,

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48 minutes, 21 seconds

even for Erica to express that right after her husband has been killed. I've often thought that

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48 minutes, 27 seconds

scripture when I've seen people go through things, but it's it's really rough to deliver that in the

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48 minutes, 33 seconds

moment of despair. It's something you want to share with somebody after there's some healing.

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48 minutes, 40 seconds

I believe I mean with my wife experiencing two suicides in her family we've talked about that

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48 minutes, 46 seconds

like what good could ever come from this yet there has been and it's an amazing thing that

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48 minutes, 52 seconds

the Lord can use and I think we're seeing it right before our eyes that he is using this

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48 minutes, 57 seconds

for good how would you encapsulate that and give people hope here at the end that we can trust God

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49 minutes, 4 seconds

that he is worthy of our trust okay quickly he told us we can trust him over and over and over

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49 minutes, 10 seconds

and over and over and over in scripture. And he wouldn't have to do that if he thought, "Hey, they're not going to struggle with this." Like we even if we believe at one level,

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49 minutes, 20 seconds

it's another level we're fearful. Like what's really going to happen to my family, my kids, my country, my and he's saying, "Trust me. Trust me, trust me. Trust me, trust me." And when Jesus

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49 minutes, 29 seconds

says in this world you'll have troubles, but be of good cheer. I've overcome the world. It's because he knows the end. He knows the end. Do I actually trust it? cuz the time to actually

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49 minutes, 39 seconds

trust him would be when things are chaotic, right? This is where this is when it actually

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49 minutes, 44 seconds

matters. And there's a a boat that's going down in Acts and Paul's on the boat. There's 275 people,

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49 minutes, 51 seconds

it says, on this boat. Everybody's freaking out because they can tell they're all going to die. The boat's going to crash. The captain, the pilot, everybody like, "Hey, we're going to die." Paul's

50:00

50 minutes

not freaking out. And they could have looked at him and people could look at you and say, "Well, you just don't know what's going on." you would be freaking out too if you knew what was happening.

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50 minutes, 8 seconds

It's like Paul's not naive. He knows more than they do, right? He's not lacking information.

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50 minutes, 15 seconds

It's not because he can't watch the news. He hasn't seen the headlines. He's like some some people will say that. You should be freaking out. No, no, no. He knows more because God has already

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50 minutes, 23 seconds

revealed to him that everybody's going to be okay in the end. We do not see the big picture.

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50 minutes, 28 seconds

I have to trust that. But ultimately, I have learned enough to say I trust his character.

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50 minutes, 36 seconds

And uh I think I think my trust is going to be vindicated in the end. And I think that's where Eric is coming from. I think we can see that. But it's very good to we have to remind ourselves of

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50 minutes, 46 seconds

this because we're forgetting machines. We humans. We forget stuff all the time. But we have to hear this over and over. And uh I'm thankful for what Focus on the Family does to continue to bring this

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50 minutes, 56 seconds

message to people over and over and over. We need this because otherwise we forget just how good God is and then we start freaking out when we could be relaxed and hopeful even in the midst of

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51 minutes, 6 seconds

utter chaos. Yeah. And I hope again this is about engagement. I was really touched with Erica's

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51 minutes, 11 seconds

comments that if Charlie would have someday run for president, his number one platform would be

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51 minutes, 18 seconds

to strengthen the American family. I mean, that grabbed me by the throat because we're walking

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51 minutes, 23 seconds

in here every day saying this is foundational to the well-being of the nation that moms and dads

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51 minutes, 30 seconds

are committed to each other. They're loving their kids. They're raising their kids in a

51:35

51 minutes, 35 seconds

way that's healthy. I mean, that it just gave me more inspiration to wake up, come in today,

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51 minutes, 42 seconds

and say, "Okay, let's go for it. Let's save some families today. Let's save a marriage.

51:47

51 minutes, 47 seconds

let's help a parent through a child crisis. And that's what we're trying to do each and every day here. Gentlemen, thank you so much. It's a tough topic. I so appreciate both of

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51 minutes, 58 seconds

your perspectives and what you're doing in the culture respectively to touch lives, change lives,

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52 minutes, 5 seconds

help people live a more committed, informed uh gospel message for evangelism and helping. So,

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52 minutes, 12 seconds

thank you for what you do and thanks for being with us. Thank you. It's nice to huddle up a little bit. I enjoyed just talking about it with you. It was very helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you,

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52 minutes, 20 seconds

Jim. And I support everything you're saying about the family and the good work you are doing. That's going to be the crucial place where we see see the culture turn. Yeah. God bless you guys. And

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52 minutes, 30 seconds

let me add this final thought for the listener and viewer. Uh Charlie recently said in an interview,

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52 minutes, 36 seconds

"I want to be remembered for courage, for my faith. The most important thing is my faith."

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52 minutes, 42 seconds

And I hope we'll all remember that as well. Hebrews 10:23- 24 says this, "Let us hold fast the

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52 minutes, 49 seconds

confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how

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52 minutes, 56 seconds

to stir up one another to love and good works." And let's take it forward. Let's do this each

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53 minutes, 2 seconds

and every day with whatever opportunity God puts in our path to encourage others, to help others,

53:09

53 minutes, 9 seconds

and to be that light for others. And one thing you can do right now that'll be, I think,

53:15

53 minutes, 15 seconds

very informative is get a copy of Brandt's book, Unoffendable: How Just One Change Can Make All of

53:21

53 minutes, 21 seconds

Life Better. Uh, with the gift of any amount, a onetime gift or a monthly gift, we'll send it as

53:26

53 minutes, 26 seconds

our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Yeah. Reach out today and, uh, make that

53:32

53 minutes, 32 seconds

contribution and get Brandt's book. Also, we have that documentary that we mentioned, Truth Rising.

53:38

53 minutes, 38 seconds

uh that's linked in the show notes uh down below as well as the four-part study guide. Uh get in

53:45

53 minutes, 45 seconds

touch with us uh get equipped and go out and be the beacons of light and hope in this culture.

53:51

53 minutes, 51 seconds

Again, the details are in the program description or call 800 the letter A and the word family. On

53:58

53 minutes, 58 seconds

behalf of the entire team, thanks for watching Focus on the Family with Jim Dailyaly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.