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Charlie Kirk Debates Teen on Abortion Rights, Rape Exceptions, and When Human Life Begins
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Charlie Kirk Defends Pro-Life Position Through Intense Debates on Abortion, Holocaust Comparisons, and Human Rights
Charlie Kirk engages in multiple confrontational debates about abortion, addressing arguments about consciousness, viability, and personhood. He argues that human life begins at conception and defends the position that abortion represents a greater numerical tragedy than the Holocaust. Kirk challenges students on their moral frameworks, questions about when life begins, and the distinction between embryos and human beings. The exchanges reveal fundamental disagreements about autonomy, bodily rights, dependency, and what confers human dignity and protection under law.
Comparing Abortion to the Holocaust
The conversation begins with a student questioning Charlie Kirk's statement that abortion is worse than the Holocaust. Kirk clarifies his position, explaining that while the Holocaust was uniquely evil in its intent to eradicate an entire religious people and eliminated nearly half of all living Jews, abortion surpasses it in sheer numbers. He argues that both are distinct evils with similarities, but abortion represents a greater magnitude of loss. When the student presents statistics about pain receptors and first-trimester abortions, Kirk counters that human life has moral worth regardless of developmental stage or ability to feel pain.
Kirk emphasizes that the moral difference isn't about numbers alone. The Holocaust's unique evil lay in its systematic attempt to eliminate an entire people group, something history has witnessed only four or five times. However, he maintains that from a purely numerical standpoint, with over 45 million abortions since Roe v. Wade, the abortion crisis represents eight times the death toll of the Holocaust. The student attempts to argue that established lives with past experiences have more value than embryos, but Kirk rejects this framework entirely, stating that moral worth doesn't increase with age or accomplishments.
Challenging the Consciousness Argument
Multiple students argue that consciousness, sentience, or the ability to feel pain should determine personhood and rights. Kirk systematically dismantles this position by pointing out that even brain-dead individuals respond physiologically to stimuli, women who are brain-dead still menstruate, and consciousness alone cannot be the marker of human worth. He introduces the concept of the soul as something transcendent beyond consciousness, describing it as what emerges when reason fails to capture an experience, like being speechless at a sunset or the birth of a child.
When students suggest that cognitive capabilities and consciousness make humans more valuable than animals or embryos, Kirk counters that this logic would justify eliminating people with diminished mental capacities. He points to Iceland's mandatory abortion policy for Down syndrome babies as a real-world example of where this reasoning leads. Kirk argues that human beings possess unique characteristics including the ability to reason, sympathize, empathize, predict, plan, show mercy, and be introspective, but most fundamentally, humans are made in the image of God, which confers inherent dignity that animals do not possess.
The DNA and Development Framework
Kirk repeatedly returns to the biological argument that human life begins at conception when unique DNA is formed. He explains that everything about an individual, from eye color and skin tone to temperament, interests, and predisposition to certain health conditions, is determined at the moment of fertilization. This DNA doesn't change or suddenly become human at some arbitrary point in development. Whether called an embryo, fetus, or baby, the organism remains human throughout all stages.
When students argue that embryos aren't yet human or that birth marks the beginning of personhood, Kirk challenges them to identify what species the embryo belongs to. When they acknowledge it's a human species, he presses the point that it therefore deserves human rights. He rejects the notion that stage of development confers more or fewer rights, pointing out that humans continue developing throughout their entire lives. Men's brains don't fully develop until age 35, yet no one suggests this diminishes their human rights.
Addressing Dependency and Viability
Several students argue that because embryos and fetuses depend entirely on the mother's body for survival, they don't qualify for the same rights as independent persons. Kirk counters that dependency has never been a marker of human dignity in Western civilization. Newborns are completely dependent, requiring constant feeding, care, and protection. People on feeding tubes are dependent. His own 10-month-old son is entirely dependent, unable to hunt, gather, or provide for himself.
Kirk emphasizes that viability is an irrelevant standard for determining human worth. The fact that an embryo cannot survive outside the womb doesn't diminish its humanity. He notes that viability changes with medical technology and varies by location, making it an arbitrary and inconsistent standard. The relationship between mother and child isn't one of parasitism, as some students suggest, but of gift, where the mother gives life and nourishment to her child through the umbilical cord. This is simply the natural cycle of life that all humans experience.
The Bodily Autonomy Argument
When students invoke the principle of bodily autonomy and choice, arguing that women should have the right to decide what happens with their bodies, Kirk challenges the consistency of this position. He points out that society restricts bodily autonomy in many ways, such as laws against murder, drug use, and other harmful actions. The question isn't whether people have unlimited bodily autonomy, but whether that autonomy extends to ending another human life.
Kirk uses thought experiments to test the limits of the autonomy argument. He asks whether sex-selective abortion should be legal if a mother discovers she's having a girl but wants a boy. When one student reluctantly agrees this should be permitted under bodily autonomy principles, Kirk identifies this as eugenics, comparing it directly to Nazi philosophy of eliminating unwanted populations. He argues that viewing pregnancy as customizable, where any undesired traits revealed by early DNA testing justify termination, reduces human life to a consumer choice equivalent to configuring a vehicle.
Medical Necessity and Rare Cases
Students frequently raise scenarios involving rape, incest, or medical necessity. Kirk addresses these by first noting that such cases represent a tiny fraction of abortions. Less than half of one percent of abortions involve the life of the mother. He argues that 99.5% of abortions function simply as a last-resort form of birth control after other contraceptive methods failed or weren't used.
Regarding medical emergencies, Kirk advocates for cesarean section delivery rather than abortion when the mother's life is at risk, particularly after 22 weeks when babies can survive outside the womb with NICU care. He explains that removing a baby via C-section is typically safer and faster than abortion and preserves both lives. When the pregnancy involves an already-deceased baby, Kirk clarifies that removing remains isn't an abortion by definition, which specifically involves ending a living pregnancy. He notes that some OB/GYNs argue abortion is never medically necessary, though he acknowledges he doesn't have sufficient medical expertise to defend that position comprehensively.
Rape and Conception
In addressing conception through sexual assault, Kirk presents two ultrasounds and asks students to identify which baby was conceived in rape and which in a loving marriage. When they cannot tell the difference, he argues this proves both deserve equal human rights. He acknowledges the unspeakable evil of sexual assault but contends that adding another evil act (abortion) doesn't correct or diminish the first evil.
Kirk argues that no moral system justifies doing something evil to remedy a previous evil act. While recognizing the trauma and difficulty of such situations, he maintains that two lives are involved, and eliminating one doesn't make the situation morally acceptable. He emphasizes that someone in every audience was likely conceived in rape, yet no one could identify who based on their humanity or worth, demonstrating that circumstances of conception don't determine human value.
The Foster Care and Adoption Response
When students argue that the pro-life position should require supporting children after birth, particularly those in foster care or poverty, Kirk outlines how conservative principles directly support child welfare. He lists safer streets through adequate policing, better schools through school choice, stronger churches for ethical formation, and economic policies that control inflation and increase purchasing power. He argues that everything conservatives advocate aims to make raising children easier and safer.
Kirk notes that twice as many people are on adoption waiting lists as there are abortions performed annually, and many families struggling with infertility desperately want to adopt. He acknowledges that the foster care and adoption systems need reform but argues this doesn't justify abortion. When a student claims only 25% of children in the system get adopted before age 18, Kirk responds that this highlights the need for adoption reform, not abortion access. He rejects the premise that potential hardship justifies preventing a life from existing.
The Religious Foundation
Throughout the debates, Kirk openly acknowledges that his pro-life position rests on a religious foundation. He states that proving abortion is wrong would require proving God doesn't exist, and admits this makes the debate difficult with those who don't share his faith. He explains that all moral systems appeal to some authority, and his appeals to the authority of God and Scripture, particularly the concept that all humans are made in God's image.
Kirk argues that secular moral frameworks ultimately fail when pressed because they rely on subjective preferences or societal consensus, which historically has justified atrocities. He cites the Declaration of Independence's assertion that all men are created equal as reflecting this religious understanding of universal human equality. Without a transcendent source of human dignity, Kirk contends, there's no consistent basis for opposing the elimination of any group society deems inconvenient or undesirable.
Dehumanizing Language
Kirk consistently challenges the language used by pro-choice advocates, identifying terms like "clump of cells," "embryo," and "fetus" as dehumanizing rhetoric designed to make abortion psychologically easier. He argues these are simply scientific terms for stages of human development, no different than "toddler," "adolescent," or "adult." The organism doesn't change species at any point; it's human from conception forward.
He draws parallels to other historical instances of dehumanization, noting that every genocide required first convincing people that the victims weren't fully human or didn't deserve full rights. Kirk argues that the pro-abortion movement has succeeded in creating a subtle dehumanization campaign over 60 years that makes eliminating smaller, less developed humans socially acceptable. He challenges students to watch actual abortion procedures, arguing that witnessing the reality would change perspectives because it reveals the humanity of what's being destroyed.
The Man Argument
When one student argues that Kirk as a man shouldn't have input on abortion policy, he immediately redirects her to make the same argument to the woman standing next to him. This exposes the inconsistency of the argument, which isn't actually about gender but about disagreement with the pro-life position. Kirk points out that many women are pro-life and many men are pro-choice, demonstrating that the issue transcends gender lines.
The student then shifts to blaming male political leaders, specifically mentioning that Trump is responsible for overturning Roe v. Wade. Kirk enthusiastically agrees, saying "Praise the Lord" for Roe's reversal. He later notes that Texas has seen more babies born since abortion restrictions were implemented, framing this as an unequivocally positive outcome in the face of Western civilization's broader population collapse and below-replacement birth rates.
Self-Evident Truths and Moral Foundations
When accused of circular reasoning for basing human rights on being human, Kirk embraces the characterization, explaining that this represents a self-evident truth. He compares it to the foundational axioms that undergird Western civilization and are enshrined in America's founding documents. The Declaration of Independence doesn't prove humans have rights; it asserts this as self-evident, requiring no further justification beyond recognizing shared humanity.
Kirk argues that the pro-life position is ultimately irrefutable because it rests on this foundational principle that human beings possess inherent rights. Any attempt to limit these rights based on size, development, dependency, or capability opens the door to eliminating any group deemed insufficiently human. He contends that once you remove this foundation, there's no limiting principle to prevent atrocities. The Holocaust, eugenics programs, and genocide all stem from abandoning the principle of universal human dignity and equality.
Video Transcript
0:00
I wanted to respond to a kind of a specific comment you made. I hope you'll be open to that. I do remember I I'm sorry. I'm not sure what university you
0:06
did say this specifically at, but you did state that you believe that the Holocaust was not as bad as abortion.
0:13
So, in other words, you believe that abortion is worse than the Holocaust. Uh, so they're they're both distinct
0:19
evils with some similarities. The Holocaust in some ways was far more evil, but as far as magnitude, the
0:26
abortion crime is more evil. And I can explain more if you'd like. Okay. Sure. So I did I did do some research. It is
0:33
found that 1973 Roie Wade was ratified. Correct. And so one thing that you did
0:40
fail to mention was that specifically I numbers are just larger because abortion has been going on for a longer amount of
0:46
time. If the mass genocide right that the Holocaust was would have continued.
0:52
It was about 6 million killed per year. That would have progressed to 12 million. That would have progressed to 18 million. But it was ended because
0:58
again it's a totalitarian form of mass genocide. And so I wanted to ask you when you look at the 93% of women who do
1:06
get abortions, it's 58,590,000 that get abortions the first trimester.
1:11
Correct. And there is there is suggestive data that states that 12 uh
1:16
sorry 12 year weeks, excuse me, of gestation um there is significant data
1:21
that has said that pain receptors may not have yet been developed. And so that would mean that outside of the women who
1:28
received abortions first trimester, it would be 88,200 per year after the first
1:33
trimester, that the babies are are likely experiencing pain. I will I will admit to that. However, I am pretty sure
1:39
that every single person in the Holocaust, which would have been 2 million per year, uh, as far as the
1:47
people who could feel pain, did did feel that pain. And so I would I would like
1:52
to ask you um actually I think I would just like to tell you I think that that 2 million actual people uh kids grown
2:01
people people who were starved work to death I think that that is more significant than the 88,200
2:07
life forms if you will because again 58,590,000 of them are probably not feeling that
2:15
any pain. Okay. Yeah. But a a human life is a human life. Regardless of how advanced
2:20
it is or whether it can feel pain, it still has moral worth. Right. But I just I like I found it interesting. You said it's worse. So I I
2:27
think So it's worse in numbers. Okay. The Holocaust was worse for two other different reasons.
2:32
Sure. Go ahead. It actually eliminated such a big portion of Jewish population. Nearly
2:39
half of all living Jews were basically vaporized. And secondly, there was an intent and an
2:45
evil of trying to eradicate an entire religious people. That is not
2:51
unparalleled, but we've only seen that happen four or five times in history. But just to reiterate the point,
2:58
what? And maybe you could tell me a four-week old baby who may or may not feel pain. Let me let me take your
3:04
argument and say the four-we old baby cannot feel pain. A four-week old baby that's outside of the in the uterine.
3:10
Understood. So what is the moral difference of that four-week old baby versus you
3:16
versus me? Yeah. Why? Why? Why do you matter more than that four-week old baby? Because I have uh past experience, I
3:22
also have future experiences. Uh that baby, while it has future experiences. Nope. Shut up. Nope. You are incorrect.
3:27
That baby does not have any past experiences. Um and therefore I believe that yeah, I've probably affected and
3:33
impacted more people in both a positive and a negative way than that four-week old uterus has.
3:38
I'm sorry, not uterus, embryo. Yeah. So, just to make sure I'm clear that that your moral worldview
3:46
is that people gain more value the older they get. Not necessarily the older they get. I
3:51
would say that people gain more No, you just said you said that based on what they've done. So, like an 82y old
3:56
has more moral value than an 8-year-old. In fact, usually it depends. Just to interrupt, the West actually was built on the opposite idea that we sacrificed
4:03
the old for the young, but during co we sacrificed the young for the old and we actually inverted it. It used to
4:09
be that the grandparents would fall on the sword so that kids could live longer lives. So I'm just trying to understand like
4:15
and from where do you get that moral worldview? Why why do you believe that? Well, I wouldn't even say that. What I'm
4:21
arguing is that it's it's based off of how many people you know. What I'm saying is realistically if you are
4:27
walking around Hold on. If you are walking around right and you have a four-week old uterus, I'm so sorry I
4:33
keep saying uterus. I can or embryo. Okay. uh in your stomach and then you
4:39
have uh let's just take a uh four-year-old kid. All right. Um there are number one there are more people who
4:47
most likely know that four-year-old kid. That four-year-old kid has the ability to understand fear, the fact that its
4:53
life is in danger. And so therefore, there is probably there's probably more reason right to not ter uh terminate the
5:01
life of that four-year-old rather than the life of the four-week old. So there there there's so much wrong
5:06
with that argument. So under that belief system, sure
5:12
if if by government decree they said let's eliminate the down syndrome kids. Uh do down syndrome people still have
5:18
the ability to feel pain, recognize fear, recognize sadness. But but it's yeah it's highly diminished but just this is not a hypothetical
5:24
actually. Okay. It's actually you must get an abortion in Iceland if you have a down syndrome baby. You must.
5:29
Yeah. That's that's really terrible. Okay. We agree. Yeah. Right. But why is it terrible? the abortion, it doesn't
5:34
matter that much, right? It's just like a it's like a clump of cells. Like, why not? If if it is going to directly impact either the mother's life or the baby's
5:40
life, then yes, I do think that abortion is an important issue. I don't think the government should ever be able to come in and say, "Hey, you're required to
5:45
have an abortion." In fact, the whole slogan for the pro-choice movement is your body, your choice. And I know you're going to disagree with that, but that is the whole point. So, what it's
5:51
saying is it's not left up to the government to decide if they should or shouldn't get an abortion in Iceland. Yeah, that's a problem because it's
5:56
entirely left up to the government. That's an issue. Let me take it to another extreme if that's okay. Sure. because this is full freedom,
6:03
right? So, you're saying, "Hey, my body, my choice." I'm I'm actually saying uh for the first trimester after that.
6:08
Fair enough. Let's just say that this is a different moral argument that I'm interested to have you play around with. Okay.
6:13
Should it be legal if a mom finds out she's having a girl?
6:19
Okay. But she wants a boy. Should she be able to abort that three-week old? Yes.
6:29
Are you kidding? Think about it. Think about what you just said.
6:35
Think about what you just said. Why?
6:40
Can that child directly survive outside her body? Well, eventually. Yes. I mean, again, so
6:48
we talk about stages of development. What is the first step of human development? I mean obviously it's
6:55
whenever the two pieces of DNA they the egg and the sperm meet and they collaborate.
7:00
So therefore if human development begins at fertilization conception sure so then shouldn't the human be protected
7:07
at conception? Well I don't even think it's going to be protected if if the baby is going to be born to a mother who's like well dang it
7:14
my kid's uh not a girl it's a boy or vice versa then I don't even think they should be born to that parent in the
7:20
first place. So but just just to But so what you are arguing for is eugenics.
7:26
Just so we are clear. It is it is not just illegal. It is like it is grotesqually illegal what you are
7:32
talking about which is sex selective abortion. Basically where you get a DNA result at 3 weeks
7:38
and you could be like no not the hair color I like terminated. Not I wanted a boy. So basically your view of pregnancy
7:46
is no different than customizing a Ford Explorer.
7:52
No, my my whole point again No, no, no, no. You got to emphasize on it. Your view is that the the baby if
7:59
all of a sudden you get a blood test that you don't like that it's by the way, you could tell a lot of your baby's DNA test now. How tall it's going to be,
8:06
it's average IQ, brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes, whether it's going to be likely overweight, obese, whether or not
8:12
it's going to be a boy or a girl. So, if you get anything that you don't like, you say, "My body, my choice, get it out
8:18
of the shopping cart." Well, yeah. And to be honest, it's it is probably it's very ethically problematic. Yeah. But if we are have if
8:25
we have advanced to a society where that can happen. Number one, we're already in
8:30
pretty big trouble if we can if we can literally say, "Okay, the baby's going to have blue eyes, green eyes." No, no, no. It's not We're already there. We're there. So, it's just you
8:37
understand it's already I mean, you can like Yeah, you can look at a punit table, but it's not actually going to be actually defined. No, no, it's very defined. You could get
8:42
a three-week old blood test and you could tell right around 3 to six weeks almost everything with a very very high
8:48
predictive correlation of how your kid is going to operate grow. Now of course there are some issues with it but the
8:54
sex is highly highly accurate. It's 90 it's the you take the women the urine of the mom within 48 hours you could tell.
9:01
So what I I just I want to make sure we're clear. You came here asking about the Holocaust. I'm going to complete the
9:08
full circle. What you just talked about, sex selective abortion, is Nazi eugenics
9:13
philosophy, which is that we will eliminate those that we don't want. Interesting. You're you're exactly
9:20
right. Uh you did get me on that one. Um yeah, cuz
9:27
yeah, I'm I'm not going to like sit up here and pretend that that you got me on that one. Uh no, realistically, like if we're really going to full circle, and
9:33
I'm going to sit here and think about it, no, you shouldn't be able to kill your baby. just because you don't like the gender or whatever. And I listen and
9:39
I apologize for taking it to that extent. I No, it's not your extent. I want I want to offer you grace. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that.
9:45
Okay. Um but I just I want to say as far as uh like if we are if we are balancing the
9:51
numbers, I think that the amount of lives that were terminated are I think they are more significant uh as far as
9:57
the Holocaust because every single person did absolutely have the ability to feel pain than they were whenever it was the 58 million.
10:03
Fair enough. So here's our view and we'll close with this. Yes, absolutely. is that if there is a three-year-old in the audience
10:08
that has very few friends and might be in, you know, living on some homestead or a 30-year-old that's very connected
10:14
and very wealthy in the moral worldview economy that we have, no moral difference.
10:20
If there's because they're they're like directly living like outside of their mother's womb. Whereas if you have Let me go let me go a step further. If
10:26
there is a 3-week old in uterero, I mean, it's still leeching off of the mother's resources. So, I'm not sure entirely how much of its own being it
10:32
is. Well, again, so you leech for the first three years of life. I have a 10-month-old. He doesn't hunt and
10:38
gather. He doesn't he doesn't go work. He's not he's not directly attached to your I assume to your wife's to your
10:44
wife's body. In order for his survival, he has to be directly attached to something. Somebody has to give the baby breast milk formula
10:51
or Okay. Formula. Yeah. But can it or something? Okay. So, here's here is your wife. Here is the baby. Can the baby just be apart
10:59
from your wife and and exist at at 22 weeks? Yes. So for 22 weeks
11:04
there is there is an umbilical cord. So what you say leech I say give the the
11:11
mom gives life to the the the baby. I'm not I'm not arguing outside of first
11:16
and what we say and not even a religious standpoint because the religious is easy. Just from a moral standpoint, we
11:22
were all given life by a mom who gave us nutrients through an umbilical cord and
11:28
we should give that back. That is just the moral cycle of life, right? Which is that that which is given that which is
11:33
much expected. And so again, human development irrefutably this even a proabort will
11:40
say this human development has a starting point. It does. It absolutely does. Yes, we agree. And it's conception.
11:46
And we can use all these different words. We can use fetus, we can use embryo, we can use little one, whatever. Sure.
11:51
But it's all still a human being. It doesn't go from rhinoceros to human being at like 10 weeks. It doesn't go
11:56
from crocodile to human being. It's all human development. Therefore, using reason that we all have if it's human
12:03
development and it is a human being, human rights. The first of all human rights is the protection of life.
12:09
Interesting. But okay. So, do you agree that like uh let's say you go into a doctor's office, you have a 10-year-old
12:15
and then you have a 22-y old. the 22-year-old is going to be allowed to submit to more testing as long uh
12:21
without parental consent than that uh 10-year-old or whoever I said was. So, I don't know. I think honestly it's again
12:28
and I I don't know like I I you have a lot of thinking to do about this and that's okay because here's and this is not your fault. The pro-abortion
12:35
worldview will collapse if you remove feelings and you remove hyper emotionality. There is no defense using
12:42
agreed upon western reason which you believe in in western morality which is we don't kill people smaller than us. We
12:48
do not eradicate those that are you know just because they don't have as much money or as much worth. We believe in
12:54
universal human equality which of course you believe in right? Universal human equality is like the overarching big
12:59
western ideal which and it by the way it's in our declaration of independence. All men are created equal. If you
13:04
believe in universal human equality there is no room for abortion in that society. It does not exist. Well, I
13:10
mean, okay, we we can I'm just saying it's fine. You have a lot to think about with that. I think we're gonna I mean, I think you do, too. But okay, I'm happy to. No,
13:16
that's fine. I mean, I've thought about this my whole life, so yeah. Listen, I appreciate you, Charlie.
13:22
Again, I want to apologize about what I said earlier about that. When we cut the video, we'll we'll we'll put your your second answer as well as
13:29
your first one. We'll be fair to that. Okay. Thank you very much. Sure, you will. No, I will. I'll just be honest. Thank you. Hi, my name is Kiana. Um, I'm not here
13:36
to change your mind or anything. I'm just mostly here to ask like why do you believe that abortion has become such a
13:43
political and dividing issue in specifically the last few years? Well, the repeal of Row versus Wade for
13:50
sure is one of the reasons. And secondly, there has been a not so subtle
13:56
dehumanization movement over the last 60 years that you're allowed that makes it
14:01
acceptable to crush human beings smaller than you if you so choose. Okay. It's mostly like I believe that
14:09
the initiative of those beliefs have become more hateful towards women. And
14:14
um I'm just kind of wondering like what is the incentive with all of these points? Like why should we not have the
14:21
option to choose? Do I or do let's do do you have the choose the agency or the choice to
14:27
murder? Well, yes. There's consequences, but I do have the under the law.
14:33
No. Okay. So therefore, that's our position. Well, not necessarily. It's more so like in the um aspects of when
14:39
you know the mother's life is in danger and you know those special circumstances like why can we not have those options
14:45
in those situations either because no one is inherently going out saying I just want to kill babies. That's not
14:50
anyone's point here. It's more so the point you should look at a Planned Parenthood ad. I mean that's basically what they
14:56
do. But so so less than half of 1% of all abortions have to do with after life of the mother. 99 and a half% of all
15:03
abortions have to do with just a form of birth control. It's a it's a last catch
15:08
option because whatever type of birth control you were using didn't work. Would you want someone who is not
15:14
necessarily stable or ready to bring a child into this world and provide that
15:19
child the life it deserves? Would you want them to still bring that child into the world? Without a doubt. Every every life has a
15:26
moral obligation to be able to live. So, I just want to play this out. So you say
15:31
it's all about the light the the choice of the mother. At what point does the
15:36
human being in uterero become a human being in your mind because it must be not human than human? When does it cross
15:42
that threshold? Um I would say more so in the second to third trimester.
15:47
Got it. So just be respectful guys. But why then? I mean what what happens in the second and third trimester
15:53
specifically that all of a sudden human being you know well it goes from a clump of cells in
15:59
the first trimester to the heart being developed in the brain and when does the heart begin
16:05
I believe in the second trimester that's 6 weeks that's the first trimester right so a heartbeat is detectable between 6 to 8 weeks that's
16:10
two months the second trimester does not start till 18 weeks brain waves are detectable at 10 weeks so tell me why
16:19
second and third trimester Because that's when the baby is more so developed is what I'm saying. Like when
16:25
in that argument you had a I'm not sure when you were shown the pictures of the fetus of a dolphin fetus and a human's
16:32
fetus. You weren't able to to tell the difference. But that doesn't mean it was not a human being though. But that's what I'm saying. It's not
16:39
developed. It's the same kind of concept. Like if it comes down to that person's life and their well-being, why
16:46
should we're talking about two different things. So life of the mother is extremely rare. It's not that rare though.
16:52
How many times do you think that there are abortions for the life of the mother out of a 1.5 million abortions every year?
16:57
How much do you think? I'm not sure with a less less than 500
17:02
out of out of 1.5 million. And by the way, a vast majority of those are babies that could have been delivered by cacaian section.
17:09
Do you know what a cescareian section is? Okay. So understand that if a baby's at 28 weeks and they say it's life of
17:14
the mother, why would you terminate the baby when you could deliver it by C-section? Well, if you can deliver it by
17:20
No, but they're not even given that option. Instead, they go to an abortionist. So then that's essentially an issue in that we should address within these
17:27
politics because no one is saying to kill kids. No one is saying to kill babies. But let's first of all there late term
17:33
abortion is very common and very frequent. It's not that common though. That's again how many times do you think it
17:39
happens a year? late term of abortions. Yeah, I don't think it happens tens of thousands of times a year.
17:44
You can't say that um when it comes to the life of the mother. But but I I I do I am curious though
17:51
just more because you said about well-being. Why should a why should any person be
17:57
able to terminate another human being if you feel as if your well-being will be
18:03
jeopardized? Why should should I be able to terminate someone in this audience if they're going to get in my well-being way? By what moral? But no, but apply a
18:10
universal moral standard to the abortion argument and help me understand it. If I were to get pregnant right now, I
18:17
would not be able to give birth to that child and give it the life it deserves because how did you get pregnant?
18:24
How did Accidents still happen, guys? Like you can you can be on birth control. You can still This is important point, guys. But but
18:31
wait a second. But then shouldn't you take responsibility for your orgasms?
18:36
What the No. So, let me be clear that you want to have all the fun but none of the
18:43
responsibility. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying accidents still happen. No, of course. And you know what happens
18:48
when accidents involve other human beings? You don't terminate them.
18:56
You You don't get to eliminate another human being because of an accident. That's not a moral code we live by.
19:01
Correct. But why do you not care about the um the outcome of that human being's
19:07
life? Of course I do. No, I mean but you don't because when it if I were to give birth to a kid right now and
19:14
it's living in horrible conditions cuz I'm just a college student, why do you not care? Why do you not put in funding
19:20
into those um establishments? Every let me everything that we believe in is about the betterment of that kid's
19:27
life. Safer streets for more more police on the streets. want to have better schools and school choice that kid can
19:32
read and learn. Stronger churches so that that kid can learn about a strong ethical if I can't afford a house for this kid.
19:39
Well, but hold on. I'm going through the list of all the things that can happen. Curtailing inflation so you can have purchasing power for that kid. The point
19:44
being everything that we as conservatives believe in is making it easier to have children in this country. And just because we don't want more
19:50
government money spent on something which actually makes it harder does not mean we don't want that thing. But it's also it's a red herring argument that
19:57
we're talking about the morality of the elimination of a life. Right. Right. And so I just want to be totally
20:03
understanding of clear that what species is the being when it's at 6 weeks
20:10
to me. I believe that it's a clump of cells. No. It's a it's a zygote. No, I know. But no, but the the species.
20:16
Next question. I'm sorry. What was the species? So everything on the animal kingdom has a species type. So, we are
20:23
homo sapiens and you could be an alligator, but so what what is it? Is it a homo? Okay, it would be a homo sapien.
20:29
So, if it's a homo sapien, it's human. So, then shouldn't it be given human rights? But it hasn't my point is it hasn't been
20:36
developed. It's still just a clump of cells, right? At the end of the day, but hold on. My baby right now is 9
20:41
months old. He's still developing. He can't speak yet. He's crawling. So, why does he have less moral worth at 9
20:47
months? He's I mean, we're all still developing here, by the way. You know that men's brains don't stop developing till they're 35,
20:53
right? I just believe you're looking at this more emotionally than scientifically.
20:59
I that again, you can believe that. I actually am looking at it incredibly reasonably because I could tell you to
21:05
down to the minute when human life begins. You kind of give me a range. Your life began not at birth but at
21:12
conception about nine months before your birth. Your opinion. Well, it's actually science's opinion. You know why? This is your eye color,
21:19
your your skin color, your tastes, your wants, your desires, your interests, introvert or extroverted, whether or not
21:24
you're going to be tall or short. It all got decided in that moment. You know why? Your DNA was formed. Amen. And and with that you what is your
21:31
marker as a human being. As we map the human genome, we realize everything about you. Whether or not you have a
21:37
predisposition to heart disease, you know, whether you're going to be tall, short, you know, extra wide, skinny,
21:43
it's all in deoxyorbiboucleic acid. Correct. And the DNA does not stop start
21:48
in 6 weeks or 8 weeks or 10 weeks or 20 weeks. It starts at conception and that's when you were formed. That's when
21:54
you came into this world and you were worthy of protection. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. I think when we talk about abortion, I
22:00
think we really get into this um idea of like when we should assign personhood, right? So um uh you clearly believe that
22:08
life begins at conception and I think it would be better if we shift if we shift that metric to a more based on
22:14
sentience. And I believe that like um and the question I have for you is that like since you believe that life begins
22:20
at at birth, let's say we have a person that's grown to old age and they have died and they have um they have
22:25
absolutely showing no brain activity at all. Um would you believe that like you know shooting that person uh that dead
22:32
person is the equivalent of like a human life? Yeah. I mean it is a human life but those are two totally separate things.
22:37
One one is no more and the other one's not yet. Right. So so not yet is different than no more. If someone's at the end of their life
22:43
and there's nothing more we can do to continue their life, that is a different moral conversation than someone that has not yet been completely grown as a
22:49
human, as humanity. Two totally different moral circumstances. So, you can't conflate the two, right? Um, but I think they both have
22:55
the same problem where like uh that uh it's it's about the presence of consciousness, right? Then
23:00
no, it's not a problem. One consciousness will come, one will the one will not. That's so they're two separate things.
23:05
One has potentiality, one does not. So, you can't conflate the two. Okay. Let's say like let me use a
23:11
different analogy then. Let's say um I have a blueprint to a building, right? And uh I have the materials for the building and you destroy those
23:17
materials. Um that the materials of of the building isn't the building in itself. Can we both agree that there's a difference between those two?
23:23
Is the building building itself in real time and is currently being constructed and it's going up? No, but it still doesn't matter because
23:29
they're still adding value to the fact that we're creating the bad analogy. A blueprint because the blueprint not itself is not
23:35
the building. Right. Exactly. in order to like a human being's DNA is not agree on that though that the
23:41
blueprint is not the building. So there's probably different moral qualifications. No, they're not. I'm saying though that the baby is the building. So you're
23:46
incorrect. Okay. So the baby the building is following the blueprint. So when you're looking at like like I don't know like a fertilized egg, you're
23:52
telling me this a picture of this fertilized egg is the equivalent of a human life right now. No exact same. What's the difference?
23:57
They're different stage of development. No. So why should stage of development give you more rights?
24:02
Well, I mean we we Okay, you're acting like this is not something this is done in society. Like for example, we do judge based on different stages of
24:09
development like in cognitive capabilities, right? I'm not letting a fetus drive a car. A fetus can't drive to life.
24:15
Apply the right to life to your stage of devel. So my I guess my I guess a different question I would have to ask you is like why um do so why is your so
24:23
I'm I'm assuming your two qualifications here are the fact that like it can create it's a unique cellular organism,
24:29
right? That has the potential to it's human which is inherently has dignity. So so okay. So I guess then this this
24:35
brings up a question cuz I know there's another scenario where this occurs, right? Where fertilization of an egg occurs and they're they have they're on
24:41
on track to development. Correct. And this other example that I'll think of is like animals, right? I think um do we
24:47
give why do we not give the same moral consideration to animals as we are to like like zygot in this?
24:52
Animals aren't human beings. Okay. So but why is human beings human beings have a soul and animals do not have a soul? So so levels so exact. So
24:59
this is my point guys is a conscious experience. You are you are prove it to this dishonest. This is honest though.
25:05
Let me prove it to you. When someone is quote unquote brain dead, do you know that they still respond if someone stabs them? Their norepinephrine goes up. Do
25:11
you know that a woman still mere menrates if she's brain dead? So consciousness is not human worth. There's something else going on beyond
25:17
consciousness that exists in a being that is the soul. Okay. So now we're getting into a conversation of what the difference between a soul and a consciousness is.
25:22
And no, they're totally different. The soul is the something beyond consciousness is your narration to yourself, your ability
25:28
to reason. There's something above reason. All of us know what that is when it kicks in. You ever hear the expression words can't describe? I am
25:35
speechless. You know why? Speech is reason. When you see a sunset that takes your breath away. When you see a newborn life that is born, you don't even have
25:41
the words to express it cuz it transcends your idea. That is your soul. So So I mean that's a good point. Like
25:46
when when we give so you what you just labeled there is like when a child is given born when when they're born, we
25:51
give such moral significance to that. Not the fact that like they got infertilized by an egg. I don't want to celebrate. I want to sort of like I'd
25:57
rather celebrate my birthday rather than like, you know, the day my parents had sex. That's kind of a little weird situation. You know what I mean? Like if
26:03
life begins at concept conception. Well, it's called your birthday for a reason. But you were you were a living being, not
26:08
It seems that like society 9 months prior gravitates to this idea of like an actual human being existing that gives
26:15
value, right? One is your entrance to the world. The other one is the actual creation of your being. Two different things. Your
26:20
birthday is when you entered the world. For example, your birthday could be at 28 weeks, not 36 weeks. So, everybody
26:25
has a different day when you exit the womb, but it's not when your worth begins. That's not when your value begins. That's simply when you exit the
26:32
womb. Right. Right. So, uh I I have a good question. I really want to get back to this uh idea of like you give more moral
26:37
value to the level of the fact that like that humans that are developed have a soul in comparison to like you know a
26:42
zygote that or actually no animal. Okay. So is that not the same comparison
26:48
to like a zygote to a developed human being in in the sense that like like um
26:53
we are a higher fire higher functioning cog conscious being in comparison to like this other thing that we can just
26:59
actively kill one doesn't matter I mean can you actively kill a one-year-old doesn't have as much acuity as you do or consciousness
27:06
right yeah but like I mean can you kill a one-year-old that's the same thing because like this is going back to my like
27:11
what's the difference between a one-year-old and a and a one day old zygote what's the moral difference uh the level of consciousness Oh, so one's bigger, one's more developed,
27:17
one's older. The consciousness is completely irrelevant cuz just you know that a one day old out of the womb
27:23
doesn't have a lot of consciousness at all. It can't speak. It can't really It's kind of like disimbabulated. But
27:28
you don't get less rights for that. I I I agree. I mean like well to a certain degree I agree with that. But
27:34
like there but there is a meaningful difference between a fertilized egg and a conscious human being. One is one is
27:40
less conscious than the other. Oh no. One has more skills. But like what's the what's the innate moral difference? And prove it to me.
27:46
Um because we it seems like we do give restrict rights and we do actually change rights based on development and
27:51
consciousness. So like a four-year-old, what is the innate moral difference of a four-year-old and a zygote?
27:57
One is more conscious. Okay, got it. So I think that's irrelevant. I think they're both human beings deserving of protection. Consciousness alone is not a marker of
28:03
dignity. Okay. So then what is your marker of dignity? It's being a human being. Being a human being. So your is your
28:09
argu argument a little bit circular though there is just like it's just because we are we deserve rights because we're human being. Yeah of course I mean it's self-evident
28:15
we are human beings with a soul therefore we have rights. So so it's we're we deserve rights because we're human beings because we're
28:20
human beings. So like how am I supposed to win against this argument here? You can't see. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. So it's it's called
28:27
it's called a self-evident truth. So so it's called self-evidence. So there it is that's why the pro-life position is
28:32
irrefutable is that because you have to posit human beings have rights. And that's that isn't that a kind of a
28:37
concern that like we we base all our entire ideology on this one illogical circle that it's not illogical. It's incredibly
28:43
logical. We are human beings and we believe that they matter. If you were remove this this circle here, then you would have to actually be
28:49
pro-life in the sense be proife to all life. Oh, we are right. So, animals, you know, but we
28:54
don't believe human beings are I'm not like a vegan or anything. I'm a veget. Human beings are not the moral same as a as a bird. It's not the same thing for
29:02
multiple reasons because a human being has characteristics and qualities and most importantly we believe as
29:07
Christians human beings have a soul that a bird does not have. Okay. So characteristics and qualities only let me interrupt one more. The west
29:13
whether you agree or not sorry to interrupt. We believe the human being is the only thing made in the image of the creator. A mo day.
29:19
Okay. Okay. So when you say characteristics and qualities what does that mean to me? What does that mean to me? Well, first of all, not just the
29:25
ability to reason, but also the ability to sympathize, empathize, feel, predict, plan, conjecture, have mercy,
29:31
forgiveness, to be able to be introspective. I love that. I love that about us human beings. Oh, no. I know I'm not being sarcastic.
29:37
No, but we human beings are exceptional actually. I mean, versus the the beasts of the wild, which we should appreciate and adore. But again more beyond that we
29:44
come after this from a soft religious view because you don't have to be Christian to believe this that the human being has innate inherent
29:51
um embedded let's just say dignity that a fox does not.
29:56
Right. Yeah. So what you just did there is kind of like my argument here. You're you're you're saying that like because
30:02
we are human we are more developed. We are we have higher cognitive reasoning. We're able to emo sympathize emotion and
30:09
reason do all these great things. Right. But the thing is, well, I guess that's that's that's a religious belief,
30:14
though. Well, that's an interesting question. I think that consciousness is the soul. And that's that's where we that's where
30:20
why if you don't believe in God, it's easy to go want to murder a bunch of people. And I'm not criticizing you. It
30:25
goes back to just a common theme here. If you believe in God, every human being has dignity.
30:30
Well, you you're kind of intuition pumping there about saying if it's murder because we haven't really discuss we haven't even agreed on
30:37
course being a human being and an elimination human life is murder. But that's fine. We're not we're just this
30:42
is why it's very hard to change people that don't believe in God to be pro-life because you don't you don't necessarily
30:48
believe that human life is necessarily special. No, I I I mean I do. But you might think it's like unique and
30:54
like interesting, but but you don't believe it's made in the image of a creator. Okay. Yeah.
30:59
And that's fine. And that that's why we tend to be the pro-life champions and those that don't believe in God don't. And that's okay. It's just that that
31:06
that clarity is important for the audience. Okay. So, I I guess we're we can keep going back and forth. I'm sure you got a whole lot on people. But I I I do I do
31:13
want to have a good question with you. Uh a question about um that I want to leave off on is so it seems like it's
31:19
it's I I I think you're pretty set in stone in this in this position. And I would I would like to ask, what would I have to do or prove to show you in order
31:26
to convince you that pro-life isn't the answer that society should be seeking for? I mean, it would be an impossibility. You have to prove to me God doesn't
31:32
exist. Okay. So, so then we can agree that like this is just a a moral issue that you're appealing to a book.
31:38
Of course. I mean, all moral issues appeal to an authority. Obviously, why is murder wrong? I mean, cuz it Well, the reason if you
31:44
want to talk about morality, we can talk about morality. Abortion is a moral issue. Of course, it is. Yeah. But the reason why our whole
31:49
conversation is laced with more morality. But in order to kind of like reduct it to like a textbook or a book or a
31:55
specific like where do you get your morality from? Well, I think morality should be based on like what is the best choice of
32:00
action to help society progress that makes any sense? Okay, got it. What what if society agrees we should kill the dumb people?
32:06
Well, um probably not the best. What about you? But why? The thing is the thing is the thing is
32:13
that doesn't work. Because in Iceland it's it's it's mandatory to abort down syndrome babies.
32:19
Okay. But it's best, right? Down syndrome people are a stranded society. Why do you say it's wrong? A because there's some degree of like
32:25
like uh we should protect some people. Why? By what standard? Why are you appealing to I appeal to a book? What do
32:31
you appeal to? The thing is I I I think like there's still some value to what standard that is. Is that your opinion or is there something transcended telling you that?
32:37
No, there's something transcended because like there is some sacredity to life and that's what I agree with. I I agree that life is sacred. that that
32:42
that that's why I would agree that if you if you adopted a more broader pro pro-life stance, I think I would be more
32:48
on side of that. Like if you want to have a society where we're forcing women to breed and pump out children, then I I would say you would have to create that
32:54
society where like it is um uh more able for them to do that. And in addition to not not be indiscriminate between life.
33:00
So I think I I would agree with that sentiment. Right. Thank you for your time. It's all right if you have an opinion.
33:06
I'm saying it's not all right if you don't understand how the female reproductive system. Okay. So pop quiz. When does heartbeats
33:12
begin for babies in uterero? Have you ever eaten an egg before? Um,
33:19
that's yes or no. Have you ever eaten an egg before? Uh, scrambled. Yeah.
33:24
Okay. So, would that be you scrambled a full chicken? Well, hold on. Oh, you understand it
33:30
takes an egg to be fertilized, right? Uh-huh. Yeah. Uhhuh. Your point, the whole point you're
33:36
making. Hold on. So, but no, since we're doing pop quiz on like human development. So,
33:42
when exactly do heart waves begin in uterero, you know that, but you don't know the four. Hold on. No, tell me when. Tell me when
33:49
I don't know. Okay. You don't know? No. So, wait, hold on. So, you're trying to say I know more about the woman reproductive system than
33:55
you do. I am a woman, so yes. Yes. Okay. Well, but the point being is we could both go back and forth of like
34:01
independent trivial facts when it comes to the woman's reproductive system. But here's something we all know because God
34:08
wrote this on the human heart of every individual. As it says in the book of Romans, we know deep down it's wrong to
34:14
murder a baby. You're not murdering a baby. It's not a baby. Okay. Well, let's let's play this out.
34:19
What is it then? It is an embryo, which is not a baby. Well Well, okay. So, it's a fertilized
34:24
embryo, correct? Which is not a baby. So, at what point does it become a baby? When it is born.
34:30
Oh, I don't agree with abortions up to full
34:35
term abortions. Hold on. But, but you said it becomes a baby when it's born. Then why would you have abortion limits before it's born? I
34:42
thought it's just an embryo. So, embryo rights. No, embryo rights aren't a thing. But then where would you draw a line for
34:47
abortion then? And why? And under what moral standard? There are medical reasons, not the
34:52
question. That's not the question. You just asked me why would I not have an abortion full term for medical reasons. Okay. So, at 29 weeks, the baby is
34:59
nearly fully developed, can recognize the mother's voice, has a heartbeat, has brain waves. Is it okay to abort that
35:06
baby? I don't like it's not okay. But you're going to say it's okay to have an
35:11
abortion then? Like, I don't understand what you're trying to say. It's not okay to have an abortion ever. How about like 3 weeks
35:17
in? Correct. No abortion. Correct. Why? Well, because your life started at conception. It did not though. It did
35:24
not. Well, hold on. So, let's play this out. So, who are you as an individual? From your skin color to your eye color to
35:30
your likes, your dislikes, from your temperament to your everything. I am not an embryo. I'm a person.
35:37
Hold on a second. But it started with something called deoxoribbo nucleic acid. And your own individual
35:45
DNA started at the point of egg and sperm meeting. That's where your journey
35:51
started. And so from that point in particular, life begins. Not not at
35:56
birth, not at first words, not at first steps, but when your DNA, which is who
36:01
you actually are. Your you are your DNA. Every one of your DNA cells is coded XX
36:07
or XY. It's coded with all of your unique characteristics and attributes that God we believe God individually
36:13
curated for the rest of your life. That doesn't happen at 8 weeks or 10 weeks. It happens at conception.
36:18
What happens if you need a medical abortion? If the mother will die if she does not get an abortion, what's your stance on?
36:24
The only the only place where medical abortion is necessary is before 20 weeks, which is incredibly
36:29
if she will die, what if the mother so let's take they for example like this is a very important question. Let's say
36:35
it's 27 weeks, okay? And the mother will die. Why shouldn't you could agree why
36:40
don't we just have the baby delivered by cesareian section? You know what a cacaian section is, right? Yes. What is a cescareian section?
36:46
A C-section. Yeah. Why wouldn't we just put the baby up by C-section instead of terminating it because if the mother will die, it's not
36:52
safe to do that. You remove the baby. I understand. I know what a C-section is, but it's actually safer than an
36:58
abortion. So, every time they say, "This is for you guys." They say, "Oh, you need to have abortion for medical
37:04
reasons." Respond, "Then have a C-section." What if you're not able to have a C-section? What if you are on your
37:09
deathbed? You need to have an abortion right now. Again, and it's illegal. You can't. So, you have to die.
37:14
First, first and foremost, C-section is safer. C-section is quicker and a C-section saves both lives. A C-section,
37:20
the baby is already dead. You just said, "No, but even No, no, no. Hold on a second. You're saying if the baby's already dead, then it doesn't have an
37:26
abortion, right? Then you're talking about a removal of a carcass, which is a completely different medical operation."
37:32
So, you're saying that's okay. If you're having if you're rem Hold on. If you're removing a carcass of a baby, that is
37:37
not an abortion by definition. The same process. No, it it it's completely different. During an abortion, they actually inject
37:44
the spinal fluid with cyanide poisoning as the baby squirms and tries to find
37:51
its mother and it is gasping for air of life. Have you ever watched an abortion? It is one of the Yeah, actually I have
37:57
and I encourage every human being to watch one to know what you are fighting against because when you see abortion
38:03
you will have your your life will be changed that we allow the massacre of a
38:08
million and a half babies a year under the guise of woman reproductive health. We are allowing babies every single year
38:15
to just say, you know, we're going to discard them. Why? Oh, they're smaller. They're not humans. You're using dehumanizing language saying, "Oh, it's
38:21
an embryo." No, that's a baby made in the image of God deserving of
38:26
protection. What do you do with those children once they're born into a bad household?
38:32
So, now we've transition to like what do you do with the kids? Glad we're past the other part of the argument. Okay.
38:38
What do you do with them? You know, there's twice as many people on the adoption waiting list than there are abortions every single year that
38:44
And they're still on the list. So, you want to send a child into an orphanage? Is that what you want for a child? Is
38:49
that a good life for a child? No, I'm not advocating that. In fact, I'm advocating for to make it easier to be
38:55
able to adopt. Number one. Number two, there's no such thing as an unwanted child. Number three, it is never right
39:02
to justify the mass elimination or termination of people under the guise of saying they're unwanted. That's how we
39:08
get Oshvitz. That's how we get the greatest horrors of the 20th century. Those people are unwanted.
39:15
So, you're comparing abortion to the Holocaust. Absolutely, I am. In fact, it's worse. It's worse.
39:21
It's really not. I don't think it's 45 million babies. It's nearly eight times worse than the
39:27
Holocaust. What's the moral difference between a small baby in the womb and a grown Jew who was killed at Oshvitz?
39:34
What's the moral difference? One is older is a person. What species is the baby in the womb?
39:41
It's a human. But therefore, they should have human rights. No, they should have human rights.
39:47
I do not agree. Oh, so so small humans no human rights. Grown humans human rights. It's not a small human. It's an embryo.
39:55
You just said it was a human species. It's not a living human child. Wait, it's not a what? It's not a child. It's not a living
40:02
child. It's very It has a heartbeat. It has brain waves. Make it a child. But tell me when it becomes a child
40:09
then. When it I already told you when it is born again. So under every other objective
40:14
definition, you see guys how quickly the proabortion arguments fall apart with just the slightest questioning and but
40:21
it our position is one rooted not in feelings, not in personal autonomy, but
40:26
one in biological consistency and reality that your life had an agreed upon starting point. That that starting
40:33
point should be protected and preserved. And the excuses given for abortion is dehumanization. Oh, it's just an embryo.
40:39
Guys, that's just using different language to justify the massacre of something smaller than you. That's all
40:45
that it is. I would like to ask you about um for abortions, right? How do we explain to
40:53
those who are are for it? How do we explain that? Um, even I don't know if
41:01
you believe this or not, but in terms of like a or unintentional or really
41:07
unconented pregnancies, do can we say that we should still be
41:13
anti-abortion in that scenario? Yes. Uh, what's your grounds for that? And
41:20
how would I explain it to someone else? Sure, it's a good question. Uh, let's say I have two ultrasounds here.
41:25
Mhm. One is an ultrasound of a baby from a loving marriage. The other one is a baby conceived in which one is which.
41:32
We can't exactly tell. So they're both human beings, right? They both deserve human rights.
41:38
Okay. But then what is if someone pushes back against with the idea?
41:43
Do I? Closer. Yeah. Oh. Uh what if someone pushes back with the idea that now in terms of the
41:49
mother, right? One of them was willingly conceived while the other one is was a force cons. Yeah, I mean that that's a
41:56
fair argument. The question then should be when if ever in your moral universe is it okay to do something evil after an
42:04
evil act to try to make that evil act correct? But how about for in terms of what is if
42:10
we're in the position of the mother and she is I don't want to take the risk of
42:15
illness, death or whatever to have this child. Sure. So, it's a little bit of a false choice because they're acting as if the
42:21
termination of the pregnancy will have no consequences or costs. A lot of women that get abortions have regret. Women
42:27
die when they get abortions. They have a lot of their health issues. It's not just like getting a haircut. So, it's a little bit of a false choice. But, we
42:34
come after it from a very basic moral argument. There are two lives involved. There's a little life and a grown life.
42:40
And no one has the right to eliminate a human life in uterero. Period.
42:46
So Ben, at that point now we're forcing someone to do something that they never
42:51
consented to, never wanted to do. How isn't this violating their human
42:57
autonomy? Well, again, but eliminating the human being would also violate the baby's
43:04
autonomy, too, wouldn't it? Well, then we would have to ask, right?
43:10
Maybe in future years we will have the technology to be able to extract a fetus
43:15
and grow a fetus outside of the uterus, but given our state of medicine right
43:21
now, we do not have that. Sure. I mean, but again, no one is delighting or rejoicing in these
43:26
circumstances. I mean, it's a terrible situation. I want to reiterate that. But you have a you have a unspeakably
43:32
difficult choice that is very morally, you know, clear though, which is that you don't eliminate a human being
43:38
because an awful action happened. Are you saying that as someone who can
43:43
get Well, I guess my push back against that would be then if we say that it's
43:52
entirely wrong, right? We are I guess we're sacrificing
43:58
someone's choice for someone's life which is admirable but it's also morally correct. You you you
44:05
don't get you don't get to murder someone smaller than you if it makes your life difficult. But then we can't exactly see the you
44:12
the fetus does not have autonomy. It cannot exist outside the universe. Doesn't matter. Human dignity does not
44:18
ex does not correlate with dependency. So dignity and dependency are not two things corrected. You have human dignity
44:24
because you're a human being, not because how dependent you are. So would you say that viability happens
44:30
when viability is irrelevant? So then at what point does human life begin then?
44:35
Conception. Conception. Not even sperm or eggs. Okay. That's conception. That's I just wanted to get
44:41
when an egg is fertiliz when an egg is fertilized, human life begins. Okay. So then when it's still a single
44:46
cell with both chromosomes pairings, right? Well, it creates new DNA, right? So once
44:52
the sperm and egg meet literally something magical and inexplicable happens where new DNA is formed.
44:58
Okay. And then what happens? So then then it attaches to the uterine wall and I can go through the whole gestational
45:04
process but all right. So then we have the basis of human life. Now what is if within the
45:10
uterus now that life is still alive but is unable to proceed to like let's say
45:17
actual birth due to some medical situation that has happened. Well, has has the baby died without outside
45:24
intervention or with outside intervention? Let's say that the is it an ectopic pregnancy or what what you got to be very clear about the type
45:30
of uh the amniotic sac has an ectopic pregnancy, right? So, yeah, you can remove the baby from that situation
45:35
without aborting it. The baby will die outside of the womb, but you do not have to abort it. So, those are two different
45:41
things. The removal of a baby is what's called the cacaian section. You can do that very early on. Now, ectopic
45:46
pregnancy is very real. It's very terrible that you can you can solve an ectopic pregnancy outside of having an abortion. Everyone who's pro-choice, in
45:52
my opinion, has a moral obligation to watch a video of an abortion just to know kind of what you're supporting. It's so beyond inexplicable. But yeah,
45:59
look, I really quick, what's the final question on this cuz I want to keep keep moving. Oh, sure. So, um, you didn't really
46:05
finish the question of when can we do that procedure, right? If there's still
46:10
a heartbeat, I I don't I don't think we should ever do that procedure. What happens if like now the mother's life is going to die in
46:16
like the next minutes, but the baby is still having a heartbeat? What do we do? Depends on again I I don't want to speak
46:22
to every specific. Some OB/GYN say abortion is never medically necessary. I'm not a professional enough to say
46:27
that, but it depends how far advanced the woman is. If she's past 22 weeks, have a cesarian section. Try to have the
46:33
baby live in NICU. So, there are situations where abortions are okay, right? Well, no, I'm not even saying okay.
46:39
Again, I don't know enough about some OBGYNS that they can defend their statement here. They will say abortion
46:45
is never medically necessary. I'll allow them to defend that. I don't know enough about the details there to be able to say that.
46:50
So, you're saying that you do not have a statement of whether abortions can never be true or always. I
46:55
it is murder. Whether or not an OB/GYN can prove to me, of which there's a lot of debate, it is ever medically
47:01
necessary. So, take for example, if a baby is 26 weeks and the baby's, you know, some the mom's
47:07
life is in danger, deliver the baby by C-section. Don't terminate the baby. Does that make sense?
47:14
Yes. I hear the baby can survive outside of the womb. Okay. At that point, yeah, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
47:26
Hi. Okay. I'm just here to talk about abortion. But the first my first question was um why should women who are
47:35
have to give birth to that baby? Yeah. Uh I think it's as simple as do
47:40
you believe life matters or not? I mean is it because it has a heartbeat
47:46
when it is conceived? Well um it does not exactly
47:51
it. Right. So what what is the what is the question you're asking? I'm saying that
47:56
my question to you is do you believe that life matters? I do believe life matters after the
48:02
person is born or the child after the person's. So, okay. So, here we go. If um if Riley were to be pregnant or if
48:09
any woman were to be pregnant right now and there's a baby that's 20 weeks developed, is that baby alive?
48:15
No. No. I mean, not physically. Is it I mean, it's
48:20
Wait, so it has a heartbeat? It can hear the mom's voice. Has its own fingerprint, its own DNA? It can empty
48:26
its own bladder. What about it is not alive? Um the fact if it doesn't have a
48:31
heartbeat at 20 weeks, it does. So heartbeat start at six weeks, right? So I'm talking
48:36
about a 20week baby, 20we old year old baby. How is that not alive? Um I mean we I guess we see it different
48:44
ways, but I mean in my in how I see it, you have to cut an umbilical cord to get that child out. And I feel like if the
48:50
if that child is still attached to the mother, if the mother is still the mother has to eat to feed the baby, if
48:57
the mother if the child is still living on the baby inside of the mother, it should not like it isn't alive.
49:02
Well, a mother has to feed a baby months and months and months and months after the baby is already like on this planet.
49:10
But there the mother is feeding the baby. This baby when is inside, are they feeding?
49:15
So what about someone on a feeding tube? If you don't feed them through their feeding tube, are they not worthy of
49:20
life? How old's that person? Are they are they born? Like, have they been born yet? But why why does the moral worth of a
49:27
human being matter whether they're born or not? Um, probably well the point that
49:32
I was trying to get out with it the the point that I was trying to get out with it is that women shouldn't have
49:41
to be forced to give birth to that child if they're if they don't want to. That's
49:47
the point I was just trying to get out there. Okay. Um, let's say I have two ultrasounds here.
49:53
One of the babies dolphin fetus again. One of them is a baby conceived in Okay.
49:58
The other one is a baby conceived in a loving relationship. Which one is which? I mean, it's up to them. The thing
50:04
No, but which one is which? I can't tell the difference. Help me out. I'm not saying that there's a difference between those two.
50:09
Exactly. So, they both deserve human rights. No, I'm saying that if a mother doesn't want to give birth to her child, she
50:16
shouldn't have to. Okay. So, should you be able to commit murder of a newborn if you don't want the baby anymore?
50:22
No, you would. Why? Well, then what's the difference? You wouldn't have the child if you didn't want it. That's the point of abortion.
50:27
Well, hold on. I will. I hope you never have an abortion. Actually, abortion's really bad.
50:33
It's my body, my choice. That's the thing. Well, hold on. It if if it's your body, your choice. And I'll let Riley chime
50:39
in. It's your choice cuz you're a man and you get to make those decision. Hold on. Time out. You want to say that to Riley? Riley's a woman, too. So, say
50:46
the same statement to her. Say the same statement to her. But I'm No. Your logic must be equally applicable to all sexes. Say that same
50:51
statement to her. saying that she can say the same statement to her. I'm not saying that statement to you. I'm saying that you as a man just said it to me. No, I'm saying you as a man
50:57
should not have you should have the right to choose whether I can. Does she have the right to choose? Yes, she does have the right. She doesn't have no one has the right to
51:03
choose from. Okay. So, it's not a man thing. That's what I'm saying. As a man because Trump is in charge and he is the one he said that he is the
51:08
reason that Roie Wade is overturned. He said that. Praise the Lord. Row versus Wade is overturned.
51:14
In what way? Like it's it also kills other women in you know we have more babies being born in Texas than ever before since the
51:20
abolition of abortion. Isn't that a good thing? And that's that's why we have such a high population. That's why we have 12 million people in our
51:26
We have a declining population. We have a population collapse. What are you talking about? The world is on the the world is on the verge of a like
51:32
population extinction event. We don't have enough babies. We're below replacement levels in the West. So you want to make women have
51:38
not make Okay, let's go through fundamental biology. How do people get pregnant? I I know how a woman gets pregnant.
51:44
So if you decide to have sex, you might win a certain prize. What if you don't decide? I'm sorry. What what if you do not decide to have sex
51:49
and you get again it's still a human life and you don't get to have you don't get to kill a baby just because a human life o
51:55
occurs something evil does not get better when another evil action occurs and I will say this
52:01
somebody in this audience was conceived in Can you tell me who it doesn't matter who that's the thing that's the thing is I'm saying I'm not
52:08
saying that they're not a human life I'm saying the mother should have the choice whether she got it no but let's you said they're not a human life so they are a human life
52:13
therefore an abolition an extermination of human life is called what murder murder.
52:18
So yes, abortion is murder. Even the case of And that's a hard thing to internalize. Doesn't matter. So
52:24
you're saying it's a child, but it's not what species is it? It is a human, but ah okay, but is it a Has the child formed yet?
52:31
But but it but hold on. You're not fully formed. Riley's not fully formed. I'm not fully formed. We actually go through
52:37
this process of development our entire life. An embryo is just one stage upon human development. It doesn't mean you
52:42
get less rights just because you're earlier in the human development scale. Um, I mean, I feel like I do have more
52:50
rights than a baby that is in some Why does your age give you more rights over an embryo?
52:58
Why Why do the ability to eliminate a smaller human? Why is that morally consistent? I'm not saying that it's better because
53:04
it is a smaller human. I'm saying that I Oh my god. I'm saying that women
53:10
themselves should have the choice to get married.
53:15
Yeah, that's why I should have the choice. Riley, do do you want to take this as a woman? Yeah. I mean, this is it's just a flawed
53:23
logic uh to insinuate that if you have a heartbeat, uh these certain qualifications, that is what determines
53:29
human rights. The moment you're conceived, you are a human, right? We we all disagreed that the species is a homo
53:36
sapien. you are a human at that point. That's when human rights begin. So, I think it's um ironic that the other side
53:43
who who touts human rights, who claims to fight for human rights, um they don't they don't believe those belong to to
53:50
children. And as a woman, um I believe every single life is worthy. Every life
53:56
matters.
54:03
Um well I mean there are so many women out there who do get pregnant and because of
54:09
laws that there are in place they cannot have an abortion and they have to give birth to that baby. Many women that are
54:16
pregnant I'm not going to say I'm not saying all of them. I'm saying some of them are drug addicts. Some of them just physically can't financially keep a
54:22
child. What is the solution? Adoption. But the thing is that do do you know how many kids are actually adopted from adoption agency?
54:28
Do you know how many women struggle with infertility who would love to adopt a baby? 25% of these kids get adopted before
54:33
they are 18. And the kids that do not get adopted are let go from the adoption agency and they do not like know what
54:39
they're doing. Not that they don't know what they're doing. There certainly could be reforms within the foster care community and within the the adoption
54:46
system, but there are are plenty and plenty and plenty of of families of women uh who are are hoping to be able
54:53
to adopt because they can't conceive on their own. But 25% like only no only 25% there
54:58
should be a reform adoption. What are you going to do? You want to say that we cannot have an abortion, but many
55:04
children are not finding homes until they're 18. And a lot of these kids once they let go from adopting agencies become homeless, become drug addicts.
55:10
You say that we cannot have abortion, but you are not doing anything to make but first of all, number one, neither are you.
55:15
Exactly. So, well, what am I supposed to do? I'm 16. Like, okay. So, again, so the the essence of
55:21
this again, and I'll we'll wrap this up. There's twice as many people on the adoption waiting list than there are
55:27
actually being adopted. Twice as many. So the adoption waiting list is very long. You just have to make it easier to
55:32
adopt adoption reform. Well then that'd mean that only 50% of these kids would be adopted and there are still 50% of these
55:39
children which are I think she missed her. I think you missed the point. That's okay. Thank you for your time. We'll get to the next question. Thank you.
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