Charlie Kirk Defends Why Abortion Numbers Make It Worse Than the Holocaust Despite Different Evil Intent

[00:00] I wanted to respond to a kind of a

[00:01] specific comment you made. I hope you'll

[00:03] be open to that. I do remember I I'm

[00:05] sorry. I'm not sure what university you

[00:06] did say this specifically at, but you

[00:08] did state that you believe that the

[00:10] Holocaust was not as bad as abortion.

[00:13] So, in other words, you believe that

[00:14] abortion is worse than the Holocaust.

[00:17] >> Uh, so they're they're both distinct

[00:19] evils with some similarities.

[00:22] >> The Holocaust in some ways was far more

[00:24] evil, but as far as magnitude, the

[00:26] abortion crime is more evil. I can

[00:28] explain more if you'd like.

[00:29] >> Okay. Sure. So, I did I did do some

[00:32] research. It is found that 1973 Roie

[00:37] Wade was ratified. Correct. And so, one

[00:39] thing that you did fail to mention was

[00:41] that specifically I numbers are just

[00:43] larger because abortion has been going

[00:45] on for a longer amount of time. If the

[00:47] mass genocide, right, that the Holocaust

[00:50] was would have continued. It was about 6

[00:53] million killed per year. That would have

[00:54] progressed to 12 million. That would

[00:55] have progressed to 18 million. But it

[00:57] was ended because again it's a

[00:58] totalitarian form of mass genocide. And

[01:01] so I wanted to ask you when you look at

[01:04] the 93% of women who do get abortions,

[01:07] it's 58,590,000

[01:09] that get abortions the first trimester.

[01:11] Correct. And there is there is

[01:13] suggestive data that states that 12 uh

[01:16] sorry 12 year weeks, excuse me, of

[01:18] gestation um there is significant data

[01:21] that has said that pain receptors may

[01:23] not have yet been developed. And so that

[01:25] would mean that outside of the women who

[01:28] received abortions first trimester, it

[01:30] would be 88,200 per year after the first

[01:33] trimester, that the babies are are

[01:35] likely experiencing pain. I will I will

[01:36] admit to that. However, I am pretty sure

[01:39] that every single person in the

[01:42] Holocaust, which would have been 2

[01:44] million per year, uh, as far as the

[01:47] people who could feel pain, did did feel

[01:50] that pain. And so I would I would like

[01:52] to ask you um actually I think I would

[01:54] just like to tell you I think that that

[01:56] 2 million actual people uh kids grown

[02:01] people people who were starved work to

[02:03] death I think that that is more

[02:05] significant than the 88,200

[02:08] life forms if you will because again

[02:10] 58,590,000

[02:12] of them are probably not feeling that

[02:14] but any pain.

[02:17] >> Okay. Yeah. But a human life is a human

[02:19] life. Regardless of how advanced it is

[02:20] or whether it can feel pain, it still

[02:22] has moral worth.

[02:23] >> Right. But I just I like I found it

[02:25] interesting. You said it's worse. So I I

[02:27] think

[02:28] >> So it's worse in numbers. Okay.

[02:29] >> The Holocaust was worse for two other

[02:32] different reasons.

[02:32] >> Sure. Go ahead.

[02:33] >> It actually eliminated such a big

[02:36] portion of Jewish population. Nearly

[02:39] half of all living Jews were basically

[02:41] vaporized.

[02:43] And secondly, there was an intent and an

[02:45] evil of trying to eradicate an entire

[02:48] religious people. That is not

[02:51] unparalleled, but we've only seen that

[02:52] happen four or five times in history.

[02:55] >> But just to reiterate the point,

[02:58] >> what maybe you could tell me a four-week

[03:00] old baby who may or may not feel pain.

[03:03] Let me let me take your argument and say

[03:05] the four-we old baby cannot feel pain.

[03:07] >> A four-week old baby that's outside of

[03:08] the window in the uterine.

[03:10] >> Understood. So, what is the moral

[03:12] difference of that four-week old baby

[03:14] versus you?

[03:16] >> Versus me?

[03:16] >> Yeah. Why? Why? Why do you matter more

[03:18] than that four-week old baby?

[03:20] >> Because I have uh past experience, I

[03:22] also have future experiences. Uh that

[03:24] baby, while it has future experiences.

[03:25] Nope. Shut up. Nope. You are incorrect.

[03:27] That baby does not have any past

[03:29] experiences. Um and therefore, I believe

[03:31] that yeah, I've probably affected and

[03:33] impacted more people in both a positive

[03:34] and a negative way than that four-week

[03:36] old uterus has.

[03:38] >> I'm sorry, not uterus,

[03:39] >> embryo. Yeah. So, just to make sure I'm

[03:41] clear, yeah, that that your moral

[03:45] worldview

[03:46] >> is that people gain more value the older

[03:49] they get.

[03:50] >> Not necessarily the older they get. I

[03:51] would say that people gain

[03:52] >> No, you just said you said that based on

[03:54] what they've done. So, like an

[03:56] 82-year-old has more moral value than an

[03:57] 8-year-old. In fact, usually, just to

[04:00] interrupt, the West actually was built

[04:01] on the opposite idea that we sacrificed

[04:03] the old for the young, but during co we

[04:06] sacrificed the young for the old and we

[04:08] actually inverted it. It used to be that

[04:09] the grandparents would fall on the sword

[04:11] so that kids could live longer lives.

[04:13] >> So I'm just trying to understand like

[04:15] and from where do you get that moral

[04:17] worldview? Why why do you believe that?

[04:19] >> Well, I wouldn't even say that. What I'm

[04:21] arguing is that it's it's based off of

[04:23] how many people you know? What I'm

[04:25] saying is realistically if you are

[04:27] walking around, hold on. If you are

[04:28] walking around, right, and you have a

[04:30] four-week old uterus, I'm so sorry I

[04:33] keep saying uterus. I embra

[04:36] or embryo. Okay. uh in your stomach and

[04:38] then you have uh let's just take a uh

[04:42] four-year-old kid. All right. Um there

[04:44] are number one there are more people who

[04:47] most likely know that four-year-old kid.

[04:49] That four-year-old kid has the ability

[04:51] to understand fear, the fact that its

[04:53] life is in danger. And so therefore,

[04:56] there is probably there's probably more

[04:58] reason right to not ter uh terminate the

[05:01] life of that four-year-old rather than

[05:02] the life of the four-week old. So there

[05:05] there there's so much wrong with that

[05:07] argument.

[05:08] >> So under that belief system,

[05:10] >> sure

[05:12] >> if if by government decree they said

[05:14] let's eliminate the down syndrome kids.

[05:16] >> Uh do down [clears throat] syndrome

[05:18] people still have the ability to feel

[05:19] pain, recognize fear, recognize sadness.

[05:21] >> But but it's yeah it's highly diminished

[05:22] but just this is not a hypothetical

[05:24] actually. Okay.

[05:24] >> It's actually you must get an abortion

[05:26] in Iceland if you have a down syndrome

[05:28] baby. You must.

[05:29] >> Yeah. That's that's really terrible.

[05:30] >> Okay. We agree. Yeah. Right. But why is

[05:32] it terrible? the abortion, it doesn't

[05:34] matter that much, right? It's just like

[05:36] a it's like a clump of cells. Like, why

[05:37] not?

[05:37] >> If if it is going to directly impact

[05:39] either the mother's life or the baby's

[05:40] life, then yes, I do think that abortion

[05:41] is an important issue. I don't think the

[05:42] government should ever be able to come

[05:44] in and say, "Hey, you're required to

[05:45] have an abortion." In fact, the whole

[05:46] slogan for the pro-choice movement is

[05:48] your body, your choice. And I know

[05:49] you're going to disagree with that, but

[05:50] that is the whole point. So, what it's

[05:51] saying is it's not left up to the

[05:53] government to decide if they should or

[05:54] shouldn't get an abortion in Iceland.

[05:55] Yeah, that's a problem because it's

[05:57] entirely left up to the government.

[05:58] That's an issue.

[05:59] >> Take Let me take it to another extreme

[06:00] if that's okay. Sure. because this is

[06:02] full freedom, right? So, you're saying,

[06:03] "Hey, my body, my choice."

[06:05] >> I'm I'm actually saying uh for the first

[06:07] trimester after that.

[06:08] >> Fair enough. Let's just say this is a

[06:10] different moral argument that I'm

[06:11] interested to have you play around with.

[06:13] >> Should it be legal

[06:14] >> if a mom finds out she's having a girl?

[06:19] >> Okay.

[06:19] >> But she wants a boy. Should she be able

[06:21] to abort that 3-week old?

[06:23] >> Yes.

[06:26] [cheering]

[06:30] >> Are you kidding?

[06:33] Think about it. Think about what you

[06:34] just said.

[06:36] >> Think about what you just said.

[06:38] >> Why

[06:40] >> can that child directly survive outside

[06:43] her body?

[06:45] >> Well, eventually, yes. I mean, again, so

[06:48] we talk about stages of development.

[06:50] >> What is the first step of human

[06:52] development? I mean obviously it's

[06:55] whenever the two pieces of DNA they

[06:58] >> the egg and the sperm meet and they

[07:00] collaborate. So therefore if human

[07:02] development begins at fertilization

[07:04] conception

[07:04] >> sure

[07:05] >> so then shouldn't the human be protected

[07:07] at conception?

[07:08] >> Well I don't even think it's going to be

[07:10] protected if if the baby is going to be

[07:12] born to a mother who's like well dang it

[07:14] my kid's uh not a girl it's a boy or

[07:17] vice versa then I don't even think they

[07:19] should be born to that parent in the

[07:20] first place. So

[07:21] >> but just just to But

[07:24] >> so what you are arguing for is eugenics.

[07:26] Just so we are clear. It is it is not

[07:29] just illegal. It is like it is

[07:31] grotesqually illegal what you are

[07:33] talking about which is sex selective

[07:35] abortion. Basically where you get a DNA

[07:37] result at 3 weeks

[07:38] >> and you could be like no not the hair

[07:40] color I like terminated. Not I wanted a

[07:43] boy. So basically your view of pregnancy

[07:46] is no different than customizing a Ford

[07:48] Explorer.

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[08:38] >> No. My whole point again,

[08:40] >> no, no, no. You got to emphasize on it.

[08:42] Your view is that the the baby if all of

[08:45] a sudden you get a blood test that you

[08:47] don't like that it's by the way you

[08:48] could tell a lot of your baby's DNA test

[08:50] now how tall it's going to be

[08:52] >> it's average IQ brown eyes green eyes

[08:54] blue eyes whether it's going to be

[08:56] likely overweight obese whether or not

[08:58] it's going to be a boy or a girl so if

[08:59] you get anything that you don't like you

[09:02] say my body my choice get it out of the

[09:04] shopping cart

[09:05] >> well yeah and to be honest it's it is

[09:07] pro it's very ethically problematic yeah

[09:09] but if we are have we have advanced to a

[09:12] society where that can happen. Number

[09:14] one, we're already we're already in

[09:16] pretty big trouble if we can if we can

[09:18] literally say, "Okay, the baby's going

[09:19] to have blue eyes, green eyes."

[09:20] >> No, no, no. It's not We're already

[09:21] there. We're there. So, it's just so you

[09:22] understand, it's already

[09:23] >> I mean, you can like Yeah, you can look

[09:24] at a punit table, but it's not actually

[09:25] going to be actually defined.

[09:26] >> No, no, it's very defined. You could get

[09:28] a 3-week old blood test and you could

[09:30] tell right around 3 to 6 weeks almost

[09:32] everything with a very, very high

[09:34] predictive correlation of how your kid

[09:36] is going to operate, grow. Now, of

[09:38] course, there are some issues with it,

[09:40] but the sex is highly highly accurate.

[09:42] It's 90. It's the you take the women,

[09:44] the urine of the mom, within 48 hours,

[09:46] you could tell. So, what I I just I want

[09:50] to make sure we're clear.

[09:51] >> You came here asking about the

[09:52] Holocaust. I'm going to complete the

[09:53] full circle. What you just talked about,

[09:56] sex selective abortion, is Nazi eugenics

[09:59] philosophy, which is that we will

[10:01] eliminate those that we don't want.

[10:04] >> Interesting. You're you're exactly

[10:05] right. Uh you did get me on that one.

[10:07] Um,

[10:09] yeah, because

[10:13] yeah, I'm I'm not gonna like sit up here

[10:14] and pretend that that you got me on that

[10:16] one. Uh, no. Realistically, like if

[10:18] we're really going to full circle and

[10:19] I'm going to sit here and think about

[10:20] it, no, you shouldn't be able to kill

[10:22] your baby just because you don't like

[10:23] the gender or whatever. And listen, and

[10:25] I apologize for taking it to that

[10:26] extent.

[10:27] >> No, no, it's not your extent. I want I

[10:28] want to offer you grace. Thank you for

[10:30] saying that, and I appreciate that.

[10:31] >> Okay. Um but I just I want to say as far

[10:34] as uh like if we are if we are balancing

[10:36] the numbers I think that the amount of

[10:39] lives that were terminated are I think

[10:40] they are more significant uh as far as

[10:43] the Holocaust because every single

[10:44] person did absolutely have the ability

[10:45] to feel pain than they were whenever it

[10:47] was the 58 million.

[10:48] >> Fair enough. So here's our view and

[10:50] we'll close with this.

[10:51] >> Yes. Absolutely. is that if there is a

[10:52] three-year-old in the audience

[10:54] >> that has very few friends and might be

[10:56] in, you know, living on some homestead

[10:58] or a 30-year-old that's very connected

[10:59] and very wealthy

[11:01] >> in the moral worldview economy that we

[11:03] have, no moral difference.

[11:05] >> If there's

[11:06] >> because they're they're like directly

[11:08] living like outside of their mother's

[11:09] womb. Whereas, if you have

[11:10] >> let me go let me go a step further. If

[11:12] there is a 3-week old in uterero,

[11:14] >> I mean, it's still leeching off of the

[11:15] mother's resources. So, I'm not sure

[11:16] entirely how much of its own being it

[11:18] is. Well, again, so you leech for the

[11:20] first 3 years of life. I have a

[11:22] 10-month-old. He doesn't hunt and

[11:24] gather. He doesn't he doesn't go.

[11:26] >> He's not he's not directly attached to

[11:28] your I assume to your wife's to your

[11:30] wife's body.

[11:30] >> In order for his survival, he has to be

[11:32] directly attached to something. Somebody

[11:34] has to give the baby breast milk formula

[11:37] or

[11:37] >> Okay. Formula. Yeah. But can it

[11:39] >> or something?

[11:39] >> Okay. So, here's here is your wife. Here

[11:41] is the baby. Can the baby just be apart

[11:44] from your wife and and exist? at 22

[11:48] weeks. Yes. So for 22 weeks there is

[11:51] there is an umbilical cord. So what you

[11:53] say leech, I say give the the mom gives

[11:57] life

[11:58] >> to the the the baby.

[12:00] >> Yeah. I'm not I'm not arguing outside of

[12:01] first trimester.

[12:02] >> And what we say and not even a religious

[12:05] standpoint because the religious is

[12:06] easy. Just from a moral standpoint, we

[12:08] were all given life by a mom who gave us

[12:11] nutrients through an umbilical cord and

[12:13] we should give that back. That is just

[12:15] the moral cycle of life, right? Which is

[12:17] that that which is given, that which is

[12:19] much expected. And so again, human

[12:23] development irrefutably, this even a

[12:25] proabort will say this. Human

[12:27] development has a starting point.

[12:29] >> It does. It absolutely does.

[12:30] >> Yes, we agree. And it's conception.

[12:32] >> And we can use all these different

[12:33] words. We can use fetus. We can use

[12:35] embryo. We can use little one. Whatever.

[12:37] >> Sure.

[12:37] >> But it's all still a human being. It

[12:39] doesn't go from rhinoceros to human

[12:40] being at like 10 weeks. It doesn't go

[12:42] from crocodile to human being. It's all

[12:44] human development. Therefore, using

[12:46] reason that we all have, if it's human

[12:49] development, and it is a human being,

[12:50] human rights, the first of all, human

[12:52] rights is the protection of life.

[12:54] >> Interesting. But, okay. So, do you agree

[12:56] that like uh let's say you go into a

[12:59] doctor's office, you have a 10-year-old,

[13:00] and then you have a 22-year-old. The

[13:02] 22-year-old is going to be allowed to

[13:05] submit to more testing as long uh

[13:07] without parental consent than that uh

[13:10] 10-year-old or whoever I said was. So, I

[13:12] don't know. So, I think honestly it's

[13:14] again and I I don't know like I I

[13:16] >> you have a lot of thinking to do about

[13:17] this and that's okay because here's and

[13:19] this is not your fault. The pro-abortion

[13:21] worldview will collapse if you remove

[13:24] feelings and you remove hyper

[13:25] emotionality. There is no defense using

[13:28] agreed upon western reason which you

[13:30] believe in and western morality which is

[13:32] we don't kill people smaller than us. We

[13:34] do not eradicate those that are you know

[13:36] just because they don't have as much

[13:38] money or as much worth. We believe in

[13:39] universal human equality, which of

[13:41] course you believe in, right? Universal

[13:43] human equality is like the overarching

[13:44] big western ideal, which and it, by the

[13:46] way, it's in our Declaration of

[13:47] Independence. All men are created equal.

[13:49] If you believe in universal human

[13:51] equality, there is no room for abortion

[13:53] in that society. It does not exist.

[13:55] >> Well, I mean, okay, we we can

[13:57] >> I'm saying it's fine. You have a lot to

[13:58] think about with that.

[13:59] >> I think we're going to I mean, I think

[14:00] you do, too, but Okay. Um I'm happy to.

[14:02] No, that's fine. I mean, I've thought

[14:03] about this my whole life, so yeah,

[14:06] myself. Listen, I appreciate you,

[14:07] Charlie. Again, I want to apologize

[14:08] about what I said earlier about that.

[14:10] >> When we cut the video, we'll we'll we'll

[14:12] put your your second answer as well as

[14:15] your first one. We'll be fair to that.

[14:16] Okay. Thank you very much.

[14:17] >> Sure you will.

[14:17] >> No, I will. I'll just be honest. Thank

[14:19] you.