Dave Rubin and Eva Vlaardingerbroek Discuss Europe's Censorship Crisis, Immigration and the Loss of Western Values

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Dave Rubin and Miss Eva Fladingabrooke. >> [applause] >> Um So, Eva, you've achieved a distinction that even the IRGC hasn't yet managed in Britain. You've been prescribed. You may no longer enter the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Why? Yeah, that's correct. Well, the official reason that I've been given is that I'm, quote, not conducive to the public good. >> [laughter] >> Unquote. Uh that is also the only reason that I've been given. Cuz for those of you who don't know, I received an email a couple of Now Now two months ago or so, out of the blue, from the United Kingdom government saying that I was no longer welcome in the UK and that they had revoked my ETA. So, obviously now as Europeans, we need an ETA, similar to an ESTA, you know, for the US, to go to the UK. And I had gone to the UK in September to attend the Unite the Kingdom rally where I spoke predominantly about remigration. And now we we all know the stories of people getting arrested in the UK. Thank God that didn't happen to me. Um but obviously what they could do, and they did it now, is revoke my um travel authorization. And uh this happened 3 days after I criticized Keir Starmer on X. And that ironically, I criticized him about the attacks on freedom of speech in the UK. Um and specifically criticized him for allowing the ongoing rape of British girls um and not doing anything about these these migrant rape gangs. And so 3 days later, I received that email. And it was just a couple of lines saying, not conducive to the public good, bye. You don't have the right to appeal. And that was it. We mentioned uh while discussing things before the uh uh the outset of this event, Dave, that you too fear that you could be arrested should you go to Britain. Um why do you think that would be? Well, I must say I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong that I haven't been banned yet. Um every time I go, I mean, I'm not kidding. It It sort of sounds funny, I suppose, but every time I go when I hand my I think, boy, is is this the last time I'm going to go there? And actually, the last time that I saw Eva was at Jordan Peterson's art conference in February of 2025. And I had dinner with about 10 of the panelists, many of whom you know are are well-known American Some American and some British speakers whose names not be mentioned at the moment, but we sat at a dinner all talking about the fact that for the first time in our lives, we were somewhere where there was some concern about what we might tweet. Uh you know, I wanted to tweet about what I saw on the streets. This was, you know, a year after October 7th or so. And you know, there were I called them Hamas rallies. They were all over Britain. I did not feel safe on the street. I had armed security with me the entire time. Uh and I wanted to tweet about that. And I thought, I also want to get out of this country without an international incident. And I wasn't the only person uh that felt that. And these are highly influential people who are accustomed them to saying whatever they want and taking the the slings and arrows for it. So, uh I suspect Well, look, first off, with all of the problems that the UK has, if this is your number one problem, um then, you know, their their math equation is is slightly off. I That's number one. Um but also uh silencing people from being able to say things, in most cases, which are true or vitally important to say, is the point of what J.D. Vance said when he gave that important speech. You will ultimately upend everything else. And that really is what could take down Europe. I don't think it's going to be a military takedown. It could just be a slow rotting from the inside. So, it's it That's one of the reasons why uh this is my third year here in Hungary. And I love everyone here at the Danube Institute. And I'm and CPAC. Yeah. >> [applause] >> And and I genuinely mean that. I I travel all over the world. I go to all different countries and cities where you can just see that so many things are wrong across the West. You all know that. And it's not here. And uh you know, I know there's an election in a few weeks. And you know, hopefully it will it will go okay. But you know, one of the functions of success uh is that you you don't realize how good you have it. And um we'll we'll see what the future is here. But but we must just keep saying what we think. Otherwise Otherwise the rest is is gone already. Would you extend that right to say the unsayable and to uh protest your belief in public too? For instance, what we saw the other day in Trafalgar Square where you had thousands of Muslims engaged in an act of public prayer, which by its very nature is one calling for the downfall of Christianity. All right. So, well, there's a couple of things here. You know, there's a there's a fundamental difference between saying what you want to say as a private person and constantly as a group of people taking over the public uh the public utilities. And taking, you know, we see this now in Times Square in New York City praying in the middle of the street. You know, at some point, if you do not There's a difference between saying something. You want to pray, that's fine. You want to have your mosque, that's fine. You want to wander down the street and mutter whatever you want, that's fine, too. There's something else that is being weaponized against us in the West, which is that they are now coming to take over all of our public spaces. And we're going to have to grapple with that because I Look, I'm an American and I have the the most liberal, in the right sense of the word liberal, uh uh interpretation of free speech. People should be allowed to pray. They should be allowed to say whatever they want. There's very slim exceptions to direct calls for violence. And then from an American perspective, libel and slander, which are laws that are almost never used, which I think is good. Um but especially in the last 2 years, as we've seen mass movements of people who just take over Fifth Avenue or take over Trafalgar Square or take over every public park, at some point, that is stopping other people from their right to assembly. It's a stopping other people from their right to speak themselves. Um and and we're going to have to grapple with that. That in some sense is more of a right to assembly issue than a than a right to free speech issue. Eva, Istvan mentioned Isabel Vaughan Spruce, who was arrested many times for her silent prayer in Britain. It does seem to me uh I mean, you and I are both Catholics, so perhaps we have a particularly partial view on this. But it does seem that there is an intense hypocrisy in my home country about which religions are allowed to demonstrate themselves in public and which are not. How would you respond to that and to Dave's points about assembly? Well, I think the the issue that we see in general in Europe is that the concept of human rights is one that only seems to apply to foreigners and not to the native population and not to the original culture or the original tradition that is the foundation of Europe, which is Christianity. So, every single time We all know this, right? Every single time we talk about human rights treaties, they are used against us. And it's never discussed, okay, but what are the rights of the native people? What, you know, how should we protect those? In fact, there are these types of of treaties and these laws are used against us to limit our freedom of speech, which happens all of the time. So, I wouldn't argue for stricter uh laws to restrain the freedom of speech of groups that might be against us, because those laws are just going to be used against not against them, but against us, obviously. So, I don't want to give our establishment any more tools in that sense. I think that the answer to the problems that we're facing now um and to the abuse that we're seeing of these treaties is remigration. So, we need to make sure that our culture becomes that our nations become culturally uh homogeneous again. Otherwise, you cannot have that type of social contract contract. It doesn't work. Um so, you know, for that, we will probably have to leave a lot of these human rights treaties as well. Um I I really don't see how we can operate within a system that is so corrupted, that is being abused and used against us so deeply anymore. If I could add to that for a moment, this is why it's interesting the to whittle down the difference between free speech and right to assembly. So, one of the problems we're having in New York City right now, for example, is they have all of these pro-Palestinian Again, I call them pro-Hamas protesters, who are specifically going to synagogues and protesting outside synagogues. Now, I will defend their right to free speech as protesters. Now, do they do they use that in in the most uh specific way against against us? The answer is yes, because there are often actual calls to violence and genocide and things of that nature. Now, I don't want the police coming in and grabbing these people uh for several reasons. I think it amplifies it. There's There's all sorts of reasons you don't. However, if we consistently let these people Okay, you are allowed to at any time when you want, you are allowed to have hundreds of people outside a synagogue protesting, outside a church protesting, et cetera, et cetera. Ultimately, the societal contract that Eva's talking about will start crumbling. People will not be able to go to places of worship. Eventually, they'll hunt you down at your business, which we've seen a lot of these types of things as well. And that's been happening across Europe. So, that's what we're going to grapple with. We have a We have a set of people that have a certain set of ideas that are completely counter to everything the West is about. We brought them in or I would say I'm an American, so in Europe I would say you guys brought them in. We have a We have a We have a version of it in America. But you guys brought them in and now will you do the things that are probably necessary to save your country. That That's the ultimate question. It does strike me that there's an inherent difference though here between Britain and America in that America is founded on the idea of E pluribus unum, that from the many you gain one, one people, one culture, one language. Uh specifically non-religious. Uh so how it Do you think it would be possible to implement? We're seeing a little of this with ICE, but how do you think it would be possible to implement the policies that are necessary to reverse the takeover of the public square by these hostile elements and yet retain uh a fidelity to the spirit of America? >> Well, on the re-immigration issue, I mean we have a huge problem in America that Europe has, which is that in the Biden administration alone in those four years it's unclear how many people came in, but most estimates say 15 to 20 million people. Now that's on top of we probably had about 12 million illegals before that and there are the dreamers, you know, there are people who were born here. So we don't know what the numbers are, but let's say 20 million people. We're a country of 350 million people. Um does anyone here know how many people Donald Trump has deported through ICE? Does anyone know the number by chance? 3 million? 3 million? I wish it was 3 million. Anyone want to take another guess? You know it's the cell deportation. What's that? Two. Two million? No, I wish it was two. How many cells? Yeah, it's about 800,000. It's about 800,000 people in the years since ICE has been on the street. So if you take roughly 20 million people and if only 10 million of them are truly nefarious, put aside that they broke the law by coming in. But if 10% of them have anti-Western views or doing truly illegal things beyond just coming into the country. Uh well, you can do the numbers on that. That's 2 million people and if 2 million and if 10% of those 2 million are the worst thing that you can imagine, we can do the numbers on that. And will we have the strength and the fortitude to get rid of these people? The answer probably is no. I mean no one really wants to think about that, but would we really do it? I mean look at the pushback that Donald Trump got just by going into one city in Minnesota where it was pretty clear that these people should not be here. Eva. We can't allow ourselves to think that way. I I mean if we do it, then it's over, especially here in Europe because our situation is I would argue worse. It's worse. Uh I I I can see the faces now in the audience when you guys heard the 800,000. We were like, "Oh, we wish." Like [laughter] no, you know? I mean here, I mean we have millions coming in every year uh still. So, you know, I'm talking and I'm arguing for a re-migration, but we haven't even closed the borders yet. So that is like, you know, we're count your blessings, Dave, but I understand what you mean though. We need We need harsher action and I've also seen of course the pushback in Minnesota. Um but we we here in Europe, we have really no time to lose. Like we are as as you said, obviously the history of our continent is different. Um our ethnic makeup is historically different. You know, this country was not a predominantly white continent. It wasn't essentially an entirely white continent and that has changed over the time span of what, two generations. And now we're coming close to the point where we are becoming a minority in our own homelands. And that was not something that we could even discuss as much as five years ago, but we can now and that is something that I do take, let's say some some I I get I I gain some hope from that fact, not because of the political action, because there is only political inaction and uh unwillingness to do anything about this in most Western European countries. But there is something I think tangible changing with the European population. And that brings me back to what you said earlier, Dave. You said, "You let them in." But we have to remember that the European people consistently say that they are against mass migration. Like the most recent numbers that came out were, you know, if you see the different European countries it's between what, 60 and 80% of almost every single Northwestern European country that says, "I'm not in favor of mass migration." And you know, this is not a democratically made decision. This wasn't We weren't asked. You know, in 2015 when Merkel decided to open the borders to more than 2 million immigrants, we were not asked. There was emotional warfare being waged against the European population with sad imagery and of course calling us a racist, fascist, Nazi every single time that we said, "Hmm, maybe this is not a great idea." And you know, as much as yes it's gone downhill from there, it's also gone uphill in the sense that now at least there is a discussion possible about it. And I think that a lot of people have stopped caring about being called a racist for wanting their own homelands to remain their homelands. And that's where I see the true possibilities and that's why the censorship is so important and of course why it centers, I think, around two subjects most harshly, let's say, immigration. Right? There's almost no right-wing activist left in Europe that is not facing legal charges because of their anti-immigration or pro-re-migration stance. Um I have just personally been banned, as you know, from the United Kingdom mostly for that, of course. Um social media censorship I've personally experienced myself. My phone is under mercenary spyware attack. I mean, what do we you know, what's next? All of these things are happening and it centers especially on those two subjects because on immigration and abortion. Because I think the agenda is native European population has to be replaced and they can't have children. So what are you going to do? You're going to promote abortion. You're going to make it incredibly difficult for Europeans to have children. That's of course happening as a result also of mass migration. Uh the unsa- the insecurity, uh the the economic pressure uh and also the demoralization of our population. And and and in in sheer numbers. And so that's I think exactly why the censorship centers around those two subjects the most. And what can we do about that? Well, we have to of course continue to speak out as much as we can still. We have a platform where we can do it on X. Uh and they can't put us all in jail. So that's why pushing the Overton window is so important. >> [applause] >> Dave, Eva makes a compelling case to what has been called the great replacement theory. And um it is a compelling case. You argue it with passion and uh with great logic. Do you agree though that it is a reality or is it merely merely a case of correlation leading some to believe in causation? >> Right. Well, first off, I do want to fully clarify that when I say you, Europe, I mean the leaders of Europe and that not the people because you are completely right about that. This was done with very little oversight. And And again, that's also what we saw in America. The average American during the four years of Biden allowing these people in and these insane videos that we saw of people just flooding our country. There is one I will answer your question, but very quickly. There was one video that I think really changed the course of American politics and probably the entire world, which is that when Bobby Kennedy, who was running as a Democrat, he had never really said anything about uh the border or immigration. That obviously wasn't his thing. Health was his main issue. He went to the border and I'm sure some of you saw this video. He stood there and he just started asking people where they were coming from and it was Pakistan and India and Africa and Chad and all these and it and you could see his mind being blown right at that very moment. So nobody asked for any of this. Whether it was planned and is there an actual replacement theory? You know, I would say my my favorite quote from the great Carl Sagan is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So I don't know that it was fully planned. Are there plans in Brussels to ultimately replace all these people and they just see no utility for the native populations and they don't want borders or sovereign nation states? That kind of does sound right to me. So I would say it probably was at least directionally planned and I think they unfortunately saw Europeans fold very quickly. You know, on my show almost every day we discuss some of this from a European perspective because I want Americans to see what is coming. You know, I I don't want the strife that you guys have. We have versions of it. We've had four Islamic terrorist attacks in the United States in the last month in New York City in in Austin, Texas. We had two others. And what's interesting is these things happen and then they're gone. They're out of the news within 24 hours. So will we just start having the situation that much of Europe has, which is, "Oh yeah, there was an explosion over there and and the you know, people don't go in the trains over here anymore and everything else." So I use Europe as a warning and I and I'm I would say as an American, um there's a way to take the things that you guys have been talking about and dealing with and and kind of show we this isn't what we want America to turn into. We also have other uh defenses because we have states' rights and uh we we are a much better, more armed uh civilization. We have more guns than people, quite literally. So there's other protections, thankfully. Um there's other protections that we have uh that the Europeans don't have. But, yeah, I I don't know if it's exactly planned down to the minute with you know, crossed uh crossed tees and all that, but it feels that way. I think one of the things we'd all agree on is that this is essentially an elite set of beliefs, an elite project. You, Dave, a man formerly of shall we say the progressive left, if not a leftist, the old saw goes that a conservative is merely been mugged by reality. How much mugging by reality do the elites of Europe and of the wider West require >> Yeah. Well, people used to mean it figuratively, now they literally mean it. There are people in New York who get mugged and they register Republican the next day. Um I don't know. I don't know. You know, in the in the Western world, we we are so advanced, we are so free, we are so distracted by our phones and the all of the beauties of modern life and video games or whatever it is that we do that we we slowly let go of everything, right? You know, uh good men create hard times and it seems to I'm sorry, uh hard times create good men, good men create soft times, you got it. And and that seems to me where we're at right now. We may not have enough people, but I will give you a a white pill version of this would be how does it all turn around? Well, America is clearly exerting itself on the world stage again. And if, and this is a big if, but if the midterms go well for the Republicans, which you know, by conventional wisdom, the incumbent president's party loses 70% of the time. Obviously, we have a war right now. There's plenty of reasons to argue that maybe it will not go well. We have huge problems with the election integrity, etc. But, if it goes well, Donald Trump will be completely unchained in a way that we've never seen. If you Yeah, if you think if you think you've seen this man unchain unchained, like wait till you see what Donald Trump, knowing that he's never running again, knowing he doesn't have to worry about midterms, and he might actually do some of the things that need to be done from an American perspective in terms of getting more people out. He's hampered right now. It's true. >> [applause] >> It's true. If you saw what happened in Minnesota, you know, they went in, they sent all these ICE agents there. They were getting rid of all sorts of people. Then, there were two incidences uh where American citizens were killed. One was in a car and she hit She quite literally hit an ICE agent. The other guy had a gun and was wrestling with ICE agents. But, Trump is sensitive to media still. So, when it started getting a little hot, he did pull back a bit. But, Trump, if he has the House and the Senate and never has to run again, I think there's a chance he really goes all in on this, particularly if the Iran war ends well, which my suspicion is it will. Um and then and then hopefully that's the signal for Europe to do what it needs to do. I'm glad you mentioned the Iran war, because that allows me to jump to Ukraine. Um We We cannot, I think, moan about the decline of Western civilization and our need to protect it whilst simultaneously, as some on the right do, saying that Ukraine should be left to the wolves. Now, I know that Dave, you've had a variety of opinions on this subject and on your program I've hosted many people with the breadth of opinion. Eva, I think you have a rather more rigid view of the situation. Um Given your beliefs, and perhaps Eva, you'll start and then Dave would follow, how do you justify your various positions on this matter? Well, I would I would immediately disagree with the idea that first of all, they're not being left to the wolves at all. It's like the the opposite is exactly what is happening now. And there's only one country, in fact, that is keeping some sort of level head headedness when it comes to this and we're in it right now. That's Hungary. And they've had >> [applause] >> Prime Minister Orbán, I think, has had the only sensible and the only morally correct position on this and that is that he's pro-peace and he doesn't want to further this and doesn't want to send neither billions of of euros over the border, which is happening, as we know, 200 200 billion euros have already been sent to Ukraine. Now, there's the 90 billion question. Uh he's the only one saying no to that. And what happened? Zelenskyy said essentially that he wanted to send his soldiers over to to Viktor Orbán's house. I mean, you know, we're dealing with extreme political blackmail here from a bunch of people that I would say are the wolves. That's the European Union. So, yes, I I have a a bit more of a rigid position on that, I suppose, it's because I see that really quite literally the opposite is happening of what you are saying. And it's not to say that I am therefore pro-Russia or anti-Ukraine, but there's never been even the latest normal debate possible on this without being called, you know, a a Putin puppet. If you say, "Oh, I really don't think that the EU should be so deeply involved in this." Or, "Oh, why are they arguing so staunchly for membership of Ukraine to the European Union?" Because that was clearly the goal from the very beginning. And look what is happening now. You know, Ursula von der Leyen is the president of the European Commission. Her banner on X is a Ukrainian flag. Ukraine is not a member state of the European Union yet. I mean, that's ridiculous, no? That shows her That shows us where her alliances lie and they're not with the European people and the member states that are actually a part of this union. So, you That's where I see the biggest problem in this is that the people who are most in favor of sending money that they don't have, because who is paying for those loans? We and our children to the end of their days, to send that money out to a foreign nation that doesn't serve necessarily our interests and they are not in favor of normal peace negotiations. They're trying to block all of that. What do they want? Do they want this to go on forever? You know, I am I'm someone who likes to see things realistically. Um and I think that they have not done that with regards to this conflict. I also, maybe this, you know, I will go back for a second to the question of immigration because it ties into it. When we are talking about things like intent, for example. Like I'm someone who likes to look at the situation maybe some might say, you know, too too simply. But, if you don't know exactly why someone is doing something, and this is a quote that I always like to say, look at the consequences and infer the motive. That's the same That's the thing that I do when it comes to mass immigration. You know, they've been seeing the consequences, for example, the terror attacks in Europe that happened almost on a daily basis and we've gotten totally numb to that as well back in 2014. But, you know, if we think about it, I don't think you have forgotten that. Uh we we know the safe the the the the the concerns of safety that we have. Budapest is the only city in Europe that I visit and I come to every year and say, "Hmm, this seems to get better by the year." Every other city just deteriorates. That's our status quo. You know, if they knew this, they saw it, like I said, are they doing anything to to reverse it? No, borders are still open. So, you know, that's why I can't look away from that without concluding that there is true true intent. Because otherwise, you would do something about it, no? At a certain point, you would say, "Okay, enough boys and girls have been killed and raped." It's It's It's enough now. They're not doing it. >> [applause] >> Well, I'll say two things quickly about about Ukraine. One, from an American perspective, it really is off the media map right now. And it's been that way for quite some time, almost with the exception of the the White House visit where Trump and uh J.D. Vance smack-downed Zelenskyy, it's pretty much been off the map. I mean, nobody's really talking about it, mainstream or online media. My position on Ukraine has been basically the same if you go back from the day it all started. It's exactly what I've said, which is that you have to show me. How could Ukraine win the war? What would be enough that we could give them? Okay, so tell me the amount of tanks, tell me the amount of weapons, tell me the amount of rockets and soldiers and all and the amount of money. Tell me what that is and explain to me how that will have them win the war. And no one has been able to explain that. So, I think it's basically I mean, I actually agree with probably everything that Eva said right there. We've now created this sort of endless boondoggle and I don't see, unless I'm missing something, I don't see a great desire for Ukraine to negotiate at this point. And that in no way is a defense of Putin. It's no way a defense of invading another nation's sovereign borders. Um but again, from an American perspective, it it it's like ninth out of the top 10 things that people are talking about right now. And what position in the public mind would you say that the conflict in Iran holds? Well, right now, it's probably number one. If you would have asked me for the first year of the Trump presidency, it was all border and deportations, 100%. Now, I would say the Iran thing looms large over everything. You know, we're in day 21 or 22 of it right now and and that's that's leading everybody's, you know, coverage of everything. Now, talking of how a conflict ends, I believe that America has now sent 5,000 missiles into Iran at a cost of 16 billion dollars and the stockpiles are simply running out. How does President Trump conclude this this uh this war without ignominy? Well, it's been interesting because from a a military perspective, it's gone unbelievably well. I mean, in 20 days, Trump promised to get out of forever wars. And obviously, you guys know there's a contingent of people on the right, largely led by Tucker Carlson who are radically anti-war and anti that are isolationist and isolationism is a completely perfectly legitimate political position to hold. I think there's some other things going on with Tucker but that's a that's a different topic altogether. Which we probably don't have time for and I'd need a drink for. However, I would say militarily look we took out their navy. We took out their air force. There's complete air domination. Their ballistic missile program is completely gone. They cannot produce a ballistic missile anymore. The nuke program is gone. So militarily this thing has gone extremely well and 20 days certainly is not a forever war. Donald Trump never said he he didn't want any war to do anything. He said he was against forever wars and my general sense is and and this has been made very clear by Trump and particularly Marco Rubio and Pete Hegseth from the Department of War as we now call it that we are going to decapitate this regime. We are going to stop their proxies all over the Middle East and Europe from spreading terror which is gone as far as Latin America. I think that that is working. We're seeing new alliances in the Middle East. Suddenly all the Gulf countries are going boy it's Iran shooting rockets at us and it's Israel actually defending us. So I think there is going to be a figurative rewriting of the map and all sorts of peace deals after. And of course the the million dollar question on all of this is what can the Iranian people do after? I don't know the answer to that but I suspect that clearly Trump and Netanyahu and others they this this has been planned for quite some time. You you aren't able to do something so overwhelmingly miraculous militarily so quickly and efficiently without a secondary plan. So I don't know if that's bringing back Pavlovi back. I don't know I don't know what that rebuilding of the institution of the country looks like but it seems to me there has to be a plan for it. And again that's still to the backdrop of the midterm elections which Trump knows he needs he needs a win before that. And and that could be his Even the European countries have for the most part been if not just reticent outright hostile to joining in the American Israeli war against Iran which I agree entirely with Dave is the progenitor of most Islamic terrorism in the world. Given your views on Islam it's inherent character do you not think that we should have gone full square behind America behind Israel and try to wipe out this evil regime forever. Well I think what we see in Europe is that same as in America it's something that's splitting the right, right? I mean it's less of an a subject here. It's not our number one priority I would say if I talk to people in our sphere not even dominating the media as much as it is in America obviously cuz we're not so deeply involved. I once again I think our leadership has extremely but always you know this is no exception this time always has bad judgment. So I really wouldn't even want to waste too many words talking about that so much. I think what is really important though is that we on the right try to stay united on the subject especially if what this means for Europe. I see a lot of people for example argue oh but this is going to cause new waves of mass migration to the to Europe to the continent because we've seen that in the past and that is of course true. We have seen how destabilization of the Middle East has caused mass immigration. But then we come back and this is what I really would like Europeans to you know to remember is that falls or stands not with what happens in the Middle East but it falls or stands with what happens with our leadership. So you know no matter how bad the turmoil is in other parts of the world if we would have people in power who would stand for our people our continent and our religion then that wouldn't really matter so much. You know just keep the border shut. That's the answer and that is not happening and I think that we as Europeans should keep that in the forefront of our mind at all costs. And then we can have debates and we can have discussions and we can disagree all we want on how we think that other parts of the world should be run and whether America should get involved or not but for our nations the most important thing is that we make sure that our leadership is in order and it's not. So you know again maybe it's boring cuz I'm getting back to the same thing over and over again but we seem to get distracted so easily when our problems here at home are really really large. If I could add it quickly not only do I agree with that I think Donald Trump agrees with that. I don't think Donald Trump cares what the Europeans think largely. I think he cares what Orban thinks actually but I know it is a good thing. I think Donald Trump clearly not I think I know Donald Trump would way more respect European leaders who were standing up for their country even if he didn't agree with the exact policy. If he saw people if he saw Keir Starmer or any European leader that was genuinely standing up for their country if he had a policy disagreement Trump loves that and that would be fine. But what he sees are a bunch of weak feckless people that will not stand up for their own countrymen and who who actually are afraid of the people they've imported. I don't know if you saw I just saw it this morning so it probably happened in the last few hours but even in Australia where I was just a few months ago and I was I was shocked by the immigration system there and they don't have illegal they don't have an illegal problem they have a legal problem obviously because of their geography but the Prime Minister Albanese went to a mosque. I mean this is a guy who has placated and pandered to the leftists his entire career and he basically got booed out of the mosque because he hasn't offered enough to these people. So what's happening is the left the left always eats its own and they think I think Starmer and Albanese and several of these Macron they think oh if they play nice with the Islamists I think they basically think they'll get beheaded last and they're realizing it's the window the window is not so long open anymore. Well I think in the case of Keir Starmer everything comes down to the fact that he's an international human rights lawyer and therefore there is no such thing as national sovereignty there's no such thing as belonging there is no such thing as our people or their people or our religion or their culture. It is entirely explicable by this as with most of his cabinet. Um The the third topic we are to discuss is the left and I want to begin this by asking is there such a thing any longer as the good left? Um I think we can all point to figures in all of our country's histories who we would say we disagreed with politically but were undoubtedly patriots of good faith and good character who wanted their nations to succeed. Is that still the case would you say? You know what the thing is is I really haven't given the concept of the left sounds weird but that much thought lately because I feel like they're becoming more and more relevant especially here in Europe in the sense that you know the the really idiotic leftist ideas that we've seen emerge especially 10 years ago you know wokeism etc. I feel like that's really on the way out even with the left kind of you know of course it's still very present in in the institutions and in the at the universities which is important to fight but if I see the younger generations like Gen Z is not buying the idea that there are 73 genders. Like you know you're not you they're not really thinking about that that much at least here in Europe. The question is more identitarian. Feel like that is the thing that is on our minds and that's something that we see a big split sadly in between especially females and males. So young boys are very right wing becoming increasingly right wing the younger they go and the girls not so much. But so yeah the left I mean the the European Union to me is a bigger problem even than our national leftist parties because no matter you know what our coalitions end up becoming. Now in the Netherlands we have a new leftist government which is horrible and you know I I can't stand them and I can't stand what they're what they're voting for but even if we don't have a leftist government as we didn't have the last two years or so we still have that monstrous institution the European Union that is making laws that have precedence over our national laws. So that's where I really see the biggest issue because our democracy does not function. It really doesn't exist this way and the fact that Trump is making fun of the the Eurocrats you know I think that's glorious. We need that so desperately and it's such a positive development that this administration is very vocal about the injustices that is that are happening in Europe that Rubio is talking about it. Vance is talking about it. Trump is talking about it. He said it now just this week for the I think the third time like oh Europe is really not going on the right path. Soon there will be no Europe if you go on this way. You know how of such crucial important that is important that is for us Europeans because we have this institution that we have no democratic means to fight really. You know you can't vote people out that you never voted in in the first place and that's that's the case with Ursula von der Leyen. So this type of political pressure like we really need that to come from the United States because they are as we've seen with this censorship and with all of the other madness coming from the European Union you're they're just doubling down. So I really see America in that sense as our only hope because it's the only political counterweight to the European Union that's actually going to make them you know in Dutch we would say sing a little less loudly, you know? You know what I mean? So, I I see that as a great great great development and I can I only hope that they're going to do more of that because they those people really need to be put in their place a bit. So, there's a couple things here when it comes to is there anything left on the left? Well, first of all, I was glad to hear Ishaan even use the word liberal in the proper sense of classical liberalism. You know, my first book was was the best-selling book about classical liberalism, I think in the last like 40 years in America and I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back as much as the word liberal has been so dragged through the mud that I don't even even though I do believe in classical liberal values, which was what the whole book was about. Those are the things that I think lead to flourishing societies rooted in the individual, it's impossible really outside of very specific places, probably like this room, for me to say I'm a liberal without people thinking I'm insane. So, so that's I'm always glad when I'm in a space where there are people that still acknowledge the the value of of classical liberalism. Now, unfortunately, there are virtually no classical liberals in the Democrat Party as it stands in 2026. Really, the only two people from a from let's say a leftist perspective or a Democrat Party perspective in America who are defending liberalism are John Fetterman, who's the senator from Pennsylvania, who quite literally was a leftist and had brain damage and as his brain has healed, he's become more conservative. So, that >> [laughter] >> that tells you something. But he's still wearing those hoodies, I don't know why. That'll be the final the final move for him. He's going to say, "You know what? I'm pro-life and I'm putting on a suit and that's it." Um but it's him and Bill Maher, of course, who's been the standard-bearer for true liberalism in America. But interestingly, and I have said this to Bill Maher on air several times and and the first time I said it to him was about 4 years ago and and you can watch it. It was on his Club Random show and you can see him light up because he I don't think he had quite heard it so granularly. This is well before he had broke bread with Trump, you know, about a year ago and it was before the re-election of Trump. And I said, "Bill, tell me this. Where do you think you would go and be responded better to? Would it be if you went to an AOC rally or a Trump rally?" And suddenly, you can you can literally see his eyes open up because he realized the people that hate Bill Maher, that are going after liberalism, the idea to think differently rooted in the individual, they're all on the left. They want you to think what they think the second they think it and that's it. And I would also add that even though I think Abe was right that wokeism in a certain sense, particularly the gender stuff, has sort of burned itself out. I think the thing that we're seeing is that it's actually now taking its final form and its final form is the marriage with Islam and that's what we have with Zohran Mamdani in New York and that obviously you have I mean, many senses has taken over many cities in in the UK particularly. So, the state of the left, I would say, is disastrous. In America, the fact that I'm sure many of you saw it when Donald Trump gave the State of the Union and all he asked everyone in that chamber to do was stand up if you think that you are here to protect Americans' rights first and not one Democrat stood up. I mean, that was a really good the guy understands television and he understands moments and his pause and the way he stepped away from the mic and he just looked at them and pointed. And I think Americans are realizing that and and again, that's why I'm not as negative on the midterms as as most people are. However, the marriage now of the woksters with the Islamists is the great challenge and and it's the challenge that Europeans have been dealing with that now we are going to see. But the woke the purely woke bananas part of it, I think is now going to be hidden under something else that will be much more wrapped in just outright communism. You know, years ago, Bernie Sanders used to always say he's a Democrat Socialist. They don't say Democrat anymore. They just now they say they are socialists, right? Zohran Mamdani is a socialist. He ran on a socialist platform. He's really a communist, which he'll say in about 2 years, but it's it's a slow unmasking and I do think people see it. I feel like that marriage is going to be short-lived though. Obviously. >> Oh, yeah. Well, Cuz the moment that they outnumber you, they'll push you off the building first, right? That's it. >> Well, queers queers for Palestine is very different than Palestine for queers and Exactly. >> [applause] >> But fortunately, there are less high roofs to throw them off in Gaza now, so, you know. Oh. Wow, I could work blue in here. Okay. Good. Good. Wokeism, it was said by the historian Tom Holland in Dominion is a warped form of Christianity. Um one of the things we've mentioned a couple of times in this debate so far is abortion. It seems to me pretty unarguable that the absence of Christianity from society has completely removed our moral foundation. And that if there is to be a resumption of Western civilization along the lines that we all hope, it cannot be done without God. We sit in the nation where the first thing you see as you enter the airport is the slogan of God, family and country. They are absolutely unapologetic about this. As a whereas as a friend of ours text today from me the other day, you land in London, you could be in Cairo or anywhere because you see a multicultural nation with absolutely no adhesion to its Christian past. I think it's fair to say that Dave that you have a a less a strong adherence to Christianity than we do. Would you agree with my analysis though that without God, there can be no resumption of the West? >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, I can give you a purely secular argument for that, which is that our founders enshrined in the Bill of Rights the defense of what they called our God-given rights, right? I mean, a lot of people this it was a constant debate years ago that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris had, you know, did all of the flourishing of the Western world come from the Enlightenment or really did year did generations and centuries of of religious texts and belief get us to the Enlightenment so that we could then have this expansion of true liberalism. The answer to that is obviously yes. I I happen to be Jewish, but I agree with everything that you said there absolutely and I'm blessed and thrilled to live in a Christian nation and I would hope that it will stay that way 100%. Avi, you mentioned earlier the demographic bomb coming up that young men are becoming more conservative and more religious. Young women are adhering as it dies ever more strongly to progressivism. Should this trend continue, how do we get young women such as yourself back to God? I don't know specifically for for girls or for boys if the approach should be any different because the truth is the truth. And I think that's exactly what we need to be saying. And the truth can be found found in Jesus Christ. That's my my foremost belief and I know that this society and its flourishment, the greatness and its beauty comes from that. You you know, it's it's a cliche, but you can't have that house without a strong foundation. It's going to crumble. And so, you know, classic liberalism, we talk about the Enlightenment, you know, I think it's you know, like a joke that's the Enlightenment is where I went wrong. Um of course, that's that's partially true, but the problem with liberalism, maybe with classical liberalism, is that it never stays there. If your value system, your main value system is that everything revolves around freedom and equality, you know, you only need a couple of bad actors who are going to tell you exactly what that is, enforce that down your throat and say that you can choose whatever you think is right and you can just follow that and that can be at your own whims and that there is no such thing as the truth. And I think that's the main issue in the West is exactly that relativism that has become dominant as a result of the loss of God because we are not God. We cannot decide what the truth is, you know, like, "Oh, you have your truth and I have my truth." That's the problem. Like, we all need to know and our political establishment, I think, has totally forgotten that. That they are not God. I think for So, this is something that works on all levels, right? Not just in politics, it's a personal thing. It's something that works that way in a family, all institutions. If you have people who are God-fearing, who know what the teachings of Christ are, deeply live it, then that is the best type of world that you could have here on Earth. That that is I think that is the truth and we've seen that throughout history. That's where humanity flourishes. And so, knowing knowing that we as individuals are not God, that we are sinners, but that we can be that we are forgiven if we turn to Christ and ask him for that forgiveness. That that is not if you really deeply believe that, that doesn't that's not a great breeding ground for dictators, let's say. Or for >> [applause] >> or for people who think that little boys can become girls or little girls can become boys or that you can kill a baby in the womb because you just don't want it or because maybe it's not the right time, you know? And those are the the deepest evils that we see in this world like every single day. So, again, I'm this is for me this is not a that's not a political speech, you know, I I as much as I believe that my faith is at the at the heart of everything I believe so therefore also my politics, when I'm asked about it, I don't like to I don't like to speak and impose as if I am the one who knows the truth, you know, I I became a Catholic just a couple of years ago and I really would prefer to be on the humble side in that and not tell people, you know, exactly how they should live their lives but I would rather say I'm not I'm not I don't know everything but turn turn to those who do don't turn to the one who does and that's that's Christ. So, again, this is not a politically rehearsed answer that I'm giving you. It's just my personal deep feelings. They're intimate, you know, they're they're my own but I think that if we were to all do that and and be humble in that sense that the world would be a much much much better place. If I could just give you a sort of bumper sticker maybe more simplistic political answer on that which is that um I agree actually begrudgingly I've come to this over the years that liberalism in and of itself cannot defend itself and I think that that's what the progressives realized. They realized that the soft underbelly of tolerance that liberals tend to put at the top of the hierarchy was going to be the easiest way to usher in all of the bad things and that really explains the alliance between the progressives and the Islamists. You have the people who are the most you know, quote unquote progressive allying with the least progressive people and in all of their minds it seems to make sense and it's obviously because the Islamists are are using the progressives to get into the system. So, the bumper sticker version of it would be to me liberals need conservatives to guard the door. Liberals need conservatives to guard the things that are eternal so that the whims of the day the crazier whims of the day things can be pushed aside and unfortunately liberals from an American perspective I think and many of them I think regret it. I think if you were to talk to Bill Maher was he probably too harsh on George W. Bush or on some of the kind of middle of the road Republicans over the years for maybe some of their beliefs on social issues or on religion or something like that. I think the decent liberals would probably say yes because the decent liberals they aren't the ones that want to have to defend the borders and make some hard decisions on things and and that is that may to you is a critique of liberalism that took me a long time to realize but I would also say it's an it's also an argument for Trump again because Trump really I think has defended both conservatism and liberalism in the in at the highest level that you can do it as an American politician, you know, he's a conservative for obvious reasons. Let's say putting you know, justices on the Supreme Court who reversed Roe v. Wade. That's obvious. He's a conservative and that he's defended the border. Um but does Trump does Trump the private man do you think he's radically against abortion? The answer probably is no. Donald Trump was the first incoming first time president to be for marriage equality. Not even Barack Obama was. That's not even an issue in America. So, Donald Trump has done this incredible dance to bring together all of these people and the real question for the future of American politics is will anyone be able to do that again? I'm not so sure what the answer is. Uh the great Maurice Glasman just your point British Labour peer says the one word you never want to hear in an oncologist's office is progression. Why should it be the case in politics that we do want to hear it? Um ladies and gentlemen, it's now time for you who have had an hour to think of wonderful questions for our brilliant duopoly to put those questions. So, I think and I hope we have a microphone somewhere that shall be circulating. Uh and I shall begin with the uh lady gesturing vociferously at the top here and then move down to the left because we never like to be at the left unless move to the right after that. Madam, please. Thank you so much. Thank you, Melissa, for uh this wonderful Danube Institute. God bless you. My name is Mona Zaki. I'm a professor of strategic thinking. I'm Coptic Orthodox Egyptian. I live in Cairo and I'm really impressed by Eva. God bless you. I have to tell you that the panel is impressive because as an Egyptian myself we live in the middle of the crisis surrounded by crazy neighborhoods. So, you can imagine the fire we go through around starting Gaza, Libya Syria, please have Syria in your mind. Iraq, Sudan, Yemen. All this area it's crazy around. So, my question here when you say do we really need God? This is our only way to survive. I always say safety is not in the absence of danger. It's in the presence of God. This [applause] Thank you. This what made Copts live up till now with the head high with a very strong martyr history including the 2015 20 Egyptian martyrs in Libya who insisted on sticking to the religion, sticking to Christianity and really losing their lives after a terrible torture in modern history. So, my question is Trump is doing a great job trying to save the world against Islamists. He's doing a great job trying to save his own country. But what about the victims of the wars? What about those the the Christians in Iran, the converted Christians in Iran? What about the the Christians in Syria who are really slaughtered down and Syria is moving moving into this problem like Taliban and Afghanistan. Syria is in a really bad shape. What about the Christians in the Middle East? So, the Christians in Sudan. So, the Christian in in Gaza. So, this is as a Christian myself with a Catholic education of Orthodox origin as a real real authentic Copt who comes from the ancient Egyptians that was originally a Coptic country before the uh the Arabs' intervention. So, what about those Christians around the Middle East? Are they in their in the minds and the prayers of the politics the high leaders' politics? Thank you very much. Dave, do you want to take that one? Well, first I would say that the I I've been to Cairo once. It was 1997 so it was a long time ago and I visited the Coptic quarter over there and as you point out I mean there there were a tremendous amount of Coptic Christians in Egypt and there's almost nobody left at least in a in a functioning sense anymore and I would say Europeans might want to take that as a warning that what will happen as you import more people who will bring in an ideology and a religion that will subjugate you and ultimately either kill you or force you to leave. So, from a political perspective everything you said about Trump and I think his vision is is completely right. Um there isn't a great discussion about that happening nationally at the moment. A little bit with what happened in Sudan over the last month or two leaked into the mainstream media. Um there's a little bit mostly mostly because Tucker Carlson actually completely lied about the Christian situation in Israel and said that they were diminishing in Israel which was a 100% lie. It's the only place in the Middle East that Christian numbers are actually going up. Mostly because he did that it did shine a light on some Christian communities in the Middle East but no, unfortunately it's not top of mind what's happening across the board. Uh we should say that one government that does help the persecuted church is Hungary with Hungary Helps. As far as I'm aware the only government department in the world specifically with that mission. Uh >> [applause] >> the gentleman in the second row here I believe was next with his hand up with the pale coat. Can I add something about the the European establishment? Obviously to the question of the of the woman in the back. Sadly here in Europe our establishment doesn't even care about the Christians here. So, you know, and you know this. So, this is a this is the biggest issue is that they are the ones actively also in the documentation of the European Union in defining what it means to be European, they wrote that out. So, I earlier I earlier I made a joke about the enlightenment, you know, they they named the enlightenment. They talk about that. They talk about liberalism. They talk about freedom. They talk about equality. Christianity was never mentioned once. It's the foundation of this continent. You know, so that shows you again, that shows you their intent, right? If you take that out, okay, who do you stand for then instead? Good evening. Uh Andre Kolarik, uh Ladislav Hanus Institute, Slovakia. Um my question is more specifically to uh Eva. Uh you are speaking much about remigration. Um my question is if there is a genuine person who wants to who is from a different continent, wants to come to Netherlands and become Dutch, or wants to come to some other country and become genuinely, I don't know, Frenchman, German, whatever. Um the the current governments don't define it. What would it take for a citizen of, let's say, Oman to become a Dutchman, to be accepted by you as a Dutchman? Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that question because there is a lot of debate about this going on right now because it's a tricky question for the obvious reason that the the debate right now about what it means to be a Dutchman or what it means to be a Brit, we've seen it in especially now with Restore Britain with Rupert Lowe. There is there are different [snorts] opinions on that, whether that should be only a cultural question. Of course, then you come into the the sphere that say of the um the civic nationalists or if there is also a component of ethnicity, of your ancestry, right? And now that debate has been shunned for as long as we can remember because if you even dared to suggest that yes, also ethnicity is a part, you know, of that equation, then you were branded a white supremacist. Now, obviously, no one is saying that or I am at least not saying that if you are white that you are superior to any other person of any other ethnic background. I am a Christian. I believe that we are all made in the image of God. So, therefore, I would never say something like that or believe it or think it. To the question of what it means, though, to be a Dutchman or a Frenchman or a German, can you become Dutch coming from Oman? I mean, I think if we were turn the question around and, you know, I would like you to think about that maybe as well. I am I am, for example, I'm married to the most wonderful Italian man who's sitting right here. I I could say that I integrated a bit quite well into Italian society. I speak the language. I know all of their gestures, you know. I uh no, I will not incriminate myself now, but >> [laughter] >> you know, I know a thing or two about about Italian culture, let's say. Am I Italian? No. I'm not Italian. But I have the same religion. I'm a Catholic as the leading religion in Italy. I speak the language. I live there. I'm integrated. But I wouldn't call myself Italian because I'm not. I'm Dutch. You know, I was born in the Netherlands. I have ethnically Dutch ancestry for as long as you could probably um go back, we we know that. You know, therefore, I'm Dutch. Does that mean that I should be treated badly or differently in Italy? No. Not if I adapt myself to that society. So, of course, to answer your question once again, there absolutely can be immigration possible from other parts of the world if the people that come choose your society, adapt themselves, and are of benefit to the host land. And the latter is basically not happening with the immigration that we have right now. The doctors and the engineers are not coming. I'm sorry. You know, so, you know, that's the thing. We can have discussions all we want about integration, but it's too late for that. It's too late for that because we let too many people in, and that's why now we are forced, which, you know, if it didn't happen, I would have never had to and I would have never wanted to, but now we are forced to go back to the question, what does it mean to be European? What does it mean to be French? What does it mean to be German? And I do think that your ethnicity plays a role in that. And that we also, as the native people of Europe, and that's why I constantly, you know, reiterate that, have a right to remain the majority in our own country cuz you cannot just magically separate the two completely. It's not realistic. It's not realistic. Doesn't mean that it's not possible for the individual. >> [applause] >> But with the numbers that we are looking at right now, we need to have another type of debate. So, I hope that answers your question enough. Dave. I would just add in in 10 seconds, I would say three words to that person, not right now. These countries have to deal with all of their internal issues and let them deal with that first as Eva just pointed out, and then there can be that discussion. But I mean that from an American perspective, too, not right now. Uh the gentleman in the Corvette uh on the top row there. Hi. Uh my name is Eugene Haller and I'm an independent thinker. Um since we're on the subject of censorship, why is it that anybody who questions Israel is automatically considered an anti-Semite? Specifically Tucker Carlson. Well, I don't think anyone is. I'm going to guess that you're not an anti-Semite, but I suspect you question Israel. So, you can have Of course, you can have legitimate uh questions about any nation-state and any leader or anything else. Tucker has done something completely, completely different uh to go to Israel and not get off the plane and ask Mike Huckabee, an evangelical Christian, uh why Israelis shouldn't, like Bibi Netanyahu shouldn't have DNA tests. Uh there's something that maybe is a little anti-Semitic about that. You know, he does a lot of trickery. Al- almost everything Tucker does has become some sort of verbal trickery. One of the things he does when he's criticizing Israel from one side is he'll say the secular state of Israel, implying that it's not a religious state, which it it blends both religious uh nature and and secularism. So, he'll attack it on one side for being secular in in that somehow that it shouldn't have this land because if it's a secular state, they shouldn't be in this place that was promised in the Bible. And then quite literally uh 2 weeks ago on his show, he said that Chabad, which is basically just a Jewish outreach program, he made it uh he basically called them akin to a terrorist organization that was going to blow up Al-Aqsa Mosque to build the Third Temple. So, he wants to hit it from the secular side and the religious side. So, it's one of it's one of those things that it's why anti-Semitism is the oldest hatred, I would say. When Jews have power, people say, "Oh, we hate them cuz they have power." When they don't have power, "Oh, look at them. They're they're less than. They're pathetic." So, it's a it's a constant shell game that he is playing. But believe me, you can criticize Israel. I've been there many times. There's no one that criticizes Israel more than Israelis. So, uh I wouldn't worry about it. >> that is true. Uh in for in in Israel, you can criticize them, but in the United States, when the first thing you say to them, uh you start questioning Israel, all of a sudden out of the woodwork comes everybody piling on. >> think that's more of a I think that's more of a canard than reality. I I think people Yeah, I think people criticize Israel. I mean, look, there's a cottage industry of podcasters right now making a living criticizing Israel, saying, "I can't say this." Then they say it. They make money. They say it again. They make more money. So, I I I don't think it's true. Now, is it possible that the the word or the phrase uh anti-Semitism has been used too much? Sure. Sure. Uh I that's why I try not to attack people's mot