Tim Miller Confronts Pastor Doug Wilson on Iran War and Political Christianity on Piers Morgan

[00:00] Hey everybody, it's Tim Miller from The

[00:01] Bulwark. Earlier this week, I was over

[00:02] on the Piers Morgan show and uh you may

[00:04] have seen the clip going around of me uh

[00:07] talking about how I was not going to

[00:08] call Pastor Doug Wilson pastor and I'm

[00:10] just going to call him Doug uh because

[00:14] he doesn't follow even remotely anything

[00:17] resembling the teachings of Jesus Christ

[00:19] and he is just a right-wing hack uh

[00:23] provocateur and political actor. Uh and

[00:25] there's space for those people in the

[00:27] world, but they're not pastors. Um and

[00:29] so uh we discussed the merits of Doug

[00:33] Wilson's worldview.

[00:35] >> [laughter]

[00:35] >> Uh Was

[00:37] Ali and uh myself uh took turns taking

[00:40] some whacks at that. Uh we also talked

[00:42] about about a bunch of other stuff and

[00:44] uh you know, our main takeaway from this

[00:46] is just the case for this war in Iran is

[00:48] so weak that, you know, the Piers Morgan

[00:50] show, which is trying to get both sides

[00:52] on to do a food fight, it's like it's

[00:55] hard to even find people to defend the

[00:57] war. And to me, that was the most

[00:58] telling part of it. So anyway, I Doug's

[01:00] arguments were so weak

[01:03] uh that initially

[01:05] I thought, why why even subject you guys

[01:07] to this on the YouTube page? But uh

[01:10] after popular review

[01:13] the people wanted it. The people

[01:15] sometimes the people like just giving an

[01:17] a swirly

[01:18] uh even if it's not high-brow debate

[01:21] content. And so, we've listened,

[01:24] we've learned, and so uh we're going to

[01:27] provide you

[01:28] some extended clips

[01:31] so you can see a little bit more

[01:33] of

[01:34] Doug and I.

[01:36] Stick around. Me and the Piers Morgan

[01:37] show. Subscribe to the feed, by the way.

[01:39] We need to get up to 2 million. We need

[01:41] to get to 2 million. Let's go. Subscribe

[01:43] to the feed. See you later. Okay, well

[01:45] Tim Miller, you're a Catholic, I

[01:47] believe. Is that right?

[01:49] Well, I'm a cradle Catholic

[01:51] uh Piers, but we're all we're all on a

[01:53] journey together,

[01:54] >> [laughter]

[01:58] >> No, I just I was just curious what you

[02:00] feel about the

[02:02] the row between the Pope and the

[02:03] President. You know,

[02:05] has what the Pope been saying crossed a

[02:08] line in terms of political commentary or

[02:11] is he just being consistent to what most

[02:13] Popes do, which is preach about peace

[02:15] and not war?

[02:17] Yeah, I think that the people that think

[02:19] that the Pope has crossed a line, um you

[02:22] know, have uh you know, no memory or

[02:25] didn't start paying attention to the

[02:27] news or to the Pope before Donald Trump

[02:29] was around. Uh Pope Leo's comments are

[02:31] in line with what we've heard from Popes

[02:34] going all the way back to Pope John

[02:35] Paul. And Pope John Paul the second

[02:37] opposed both Iraq wars,

[02:40] um did so vocally

[02:42] uh and, you know, I don't recall George

[02:44] H.W. Bush or George W. Bush getting to a

[02:46] fight with the Pope. Uh multiple Popes

[02:48] have criticized Democratic leaders for

[02:51] their stances on abortion and other

[02:53] issues. I don't remember Joe Biden or

[02:55] Nancy Pelosi telling the Pope to shut

[02:57] his pie hole when he uh weighed in on,

[03:01] you know, the Catholic teaching on

[03:02] abortion.

[03:04] Uh Donald Trump wants to make everything

[03:05] about himself. He wants to pick this

[03:08] fight uh because that's the only thing

[03:10] he knows how to do is bully people and

[03:12] pick fights.

[03:13] Uh so, it's kind of what we'd expect

[03:14] from Donald Trump. It's a little

[03:16] confusing for J.D. Vance, who converted

[03:18] to Cath- Catholicism 2 seconds ago and

[03:21] then decided to write a book about his

[03:22] conversion,

[03:24] to now come out and say that the Pope

[03:25] needs to be careful when he speaks about

[03:27] theology,

[03:28] >> [laughter]

[03:29] >> as if J.D. Vance, who's been a Catholic

[03:31] for 2 minutes, knows more about Catholic

[03:33] doctrine and just war theory than the

[03:35] Pope. I think probably he would benefit

[03:36] from listening to the Pope. And uh yeah,

[03:39] I I just I I don't know who is really

[03:41] buying that from him, from the Vice

[03:43] President. So like, why, you know, it's

[03:45] not as if he comments about how Donald

[03:48] Trump should be careful with his

[03:49] language ever. J.D. Vance never

[03:51] criticizes Donald Trump, but now all of

[03:53] the sudden

[03:54] uh he simultaneously went through this

[03:56] conversion

[03:57] uh to MAGA-hood, where he's a Donald

[04:00] Trump acolyte and he went and he went

[04:02] through a conversion to Catholicism at

[04:03] the same time. It's just it's very phony

[04:05] and it's very fake and I don't think

[04:07] it's helping either of them politically.

[04:09] All the all the contradictory statements

[04:10] coming out of Iran really just reveal

[04:13] nothing more than the fact that nobody

[04:15] knows who's in charge there.

[04:19] Oh boy.

[04:19] >> Okay. Let me bring Tim Miller in. Hey

[04:21] Tim. [laughter]

[04:24] I mean, there's a lot of contradictory

[04:25] statements coming out of everywhere. And

[04:27] you know, I'm all for the fog of war and

[04:29] you know, dealing with the enemy in the

[04:30] way that they may understand. And look,

[04:32] nobody pretends Donald Trump is a

[04:34] conventional politician or president.

[04:36] He's always used the power of incendiary

[04:38] rhetoric to get what he wants and

[04:40] sometimes he's been successful at doing

[04:42] it. So, you know, maybe there is method

[04:44] to the madness, maybe this is the

[04:45] language the Iranians will understand

[04:47] and maybe in 6 months time we'll look at

[04:49] this as a piece of strategic genius. But

[04:52] I've got to say right now, I'm not

[04:54] feeling that. I'm feeling more that

[04:57] Donald Trump has got sucked into

[04:59] something as we came on

[05:01] air with this show today, he's put out a

[05:04] direct denunciation of the increasingly

[05:08] popular claim that he got bullied into

[05:10] this or talked into it, persuaded into

[05:12] it by the Israelis. He said, "Is- Israel

[05:15] never talked me into the war with Iran.

[05:17] The results of October the 7th added to

[05:19] my lifelong opinion that Iran can never

[05:21] have a nuclear weapon did. I watch and

[05:23] read the fake news pundits and polls in

[05:26] disbelief. 90% of what they say are lies

[05:28] and made-up stories. Blah, blah, blah.

[05:30] Um but you know,

[05:31] the mere fact he's felt compelled to say

[05:33] that when we all read a big New York

[05:35] Times piece last week, which detailed in

[05:37] in really quite extraordinary detail how

[05:39] Benjamin Netanyahu had sat in the

[05:41] Situation Room at the White House laying

[05:44] out a sequence of events if America

[05:47] joined this and attacked and took out

[05:50] the Ayatollah and the top people, then

[05:52] you would see the IRGC get uh slowly

[05:54] lose power, you'd see the people rise up

[05:56] and take it over, the Strait of Hormuz

[05:58] would be an irrelevance and so on. Only

[06:00] the first bit's happened. And that's

[06:02] just the cold, hard reality. And I'm I'm

[06:05] of the view that Donald Trump has got

[06:07] into something

[06:08] he wants to get out, but he he is not

[06:10] sure how to do that where it doesn't

[06:12] look like an abject uh failure.

[06:15] The cold, hard reality is that it's been

[06:17] 6 weeks.

[06:20] Yeah, well, and things have gotten worse

[06:22] in the 6 weeks past.

[06:26] Worse worse worse

[06:30] We were told it was going to be over in

[06:31] we were told it was going to be over in

[06:32] 2 to 3 weeks 2 to 3 weeks ago and it's

[06:35] not. So, Tim. Yeah. Uh look, uh the

[06:38] Trump uh bleat about, you know, how

[06:40] Israel didn't push him into this is is

[06:42] definitely a lady doth protest too much

[06:44] moment. Um the fact that he had to say

[06:46] that, I I just think that the real- we

[06:48] can all see reality with our eyes. Um

[06:50] this is not to say that there's like

[06:52] some secret cabal of of Jews that are

[06:54] like you know, puppet mastering and and

[06:57] manipulating Trump. It's not to say

[06:58] that. It's just to say that BB came into

[07:00] our situation room

[07:01] and made the case to him for this war

[07:04] and then a couple weeks later, they got

[07:06] into the war. Like that's just what

[07:08] happened. Um I don't think that there's

[07:10] anyone out there who thinks that if

[07:12] Israel did not want this war, wasn't

[07:14] agitating for it, that Trump was going

[07:15] to go at it alone and do it on his on

[07:18] his own. There's just no reason to think

[07:19] that that would have happened and and

[07:21] and a big part of uh

[07:23] of why we shouldn't think that would

[07:25] happen is just listening to Donald Trump

[07:26] and J.D. Vance's own words, where they

[07:27] said that they weren't going to do this

[07:29] um up until they changed their mind. So,

[07:31] look, I I just think that, you know, the

[07:32] the the quote-unquote pastor we've got

[07:34] over here um

[07:36] saying that we're only 6 weeks into

[07:37] this, I can't he's very incoherent in

[07:40] his defense of this. And I think it's

[07:41] probably a big challenge for you, Piers,

[07:43] to get people onto this show to defend

[07:45] this war because Trump is incoherent

[07:47] talking about it. I every any defender

[07:49] of this war sounds incoherent because we

[07:51] haven't got anything. Like there's been

[07:52] no progress made. And there was no case

[07:54] made for it. And if you just look at if

[07:57] you go back 7 weeks and you just said to

[07:59] the American people, it's like, "Hey,

[08:01] here's what's here's what things are

[08:02] going to look like in 7 weeks from now.

[08:04] The Strait of Hormuz will have been

[08:05] closed. Energy prices are higher for

[08:07] everybody. Critical energy

[08:09] infrastructure in Arab states are taken

[08:11] offline. The UAE is coming to us to ask

[08:13] us for a loan now. Over a dozen

[08:14] Americans are dead. We've unknown how

[08:16] many Americans are wounded cuz they're

[08:17] not being honest with us. Iranian

[08:19] citizens have been killed, including

[08:20] school children that we accidentally

[08:22] killed. Uh we've depleted our military

[08:24] material. So, that is the state of

[08:26] affairs and in exchange for that, what

[08:28] have we gotten? We've moved from one uh

[08:30] hominid to another.

[08:32] The IRGC is in more control and Iran has

[08:36] lost some ships and they've lost some of

[08:38] their missile capabilities. Like that's

[08:40] it. Like that's all we've gotten out of

[08:41] this. Who would want who would make that

[08:43] deal? Like that would have that if you

[08:44] made that pitch to people 8 weeks ago,

[08:46] 3% of the American public would have

[08:48] been for that. You know, the really

[08:50] strong Israel hawks maybe would have

[08:52] been for that, but no one else. Well,

[08:54] the interesting thing the interesting

[08:56] thing

[08:57] Then last thing, uh I've been a

[08:59] quote-unquote pastor for just shy of 50

[09:02] years. And so, I'd like to know how much

[09:04] longer I have to go before I become a

[09:06] real pastor.

[09:08] Well, you have to follow [laughter] the

[09:09] teachings of Jesus Christ, probably, if

[09:11] you want to be a real pastor. I mean,

[09:12] you can call yourself whatever you want,

[09:14] Doug. I'm just going to call you Doug.

[09:16] I'm kind of tired of you being called

[09:18] pastor, but you know, if you just want

[09:19] to

[09:20] >> [laughter]

[09:20] >> look, you're out there. You

[09:22] you hate everybody. You you attack black

[09:24] people, gay people, immigrants, Jews.

[09:27] Like all you do is spread hate. Your

[09:29] brother that you've got behind there is

[09:31] is, you know, talking about how much you

[09:33] love bad words. I look, if you want to

[09:35] teach like this kind of kind of fake

[09:38] Christianity, uh that's fine. You can do

[09:40] that, you know, if you want No, I've not

[09:42] read your book. Very happy to have not

[09:44] read your book. But if you want to do

[09:45] this kind of vice signaling Christianity

[09:48] >> stop commenting on what it's about.

[09:50] Well, I [laughter] I don't I I've seen

[09:52] enough of your material um on social

[09:54] media uh that it doesn't really require

[09:56] any more. I mean, it doesn't, it's not

[09:57] like there's a ton of ton of deep

[09:59] thought that's going behind it that

[10:01] requires, you know, further study.

[10:03] >> as

[10:04] the show as the as the show started out,

[10:06] I thought we were supposed to

[10:09] refrain from attacking religious

[10:10] leaders.

[10:11] >> [laughter]

[10:13] >> Real real problem with that. You

[10:14] attacked the Pope.

[10:16] Well, I've I've no problem Listen, real

[10:18] quick, Pastor, I have no problem

[10:20] attacking wolves in sheep's clothing.

[10:23] I've no problem attacking a man who

[10:25] wrote that American slavery was mutually

[10:27] harmonious between the slave master and

[10:29] the slave. That's you. I have no problem

[10:31] attacking a man who proudly says he

[10:33] wants to do away with the 19th Amendment

[10:35] which gave women the right to vote. I

[10:36] have no problem attacking a man like

[10:37] yourself who sits here incoherently

[10:40] supporting an incoherent unwinnable

[10:42] illegal war in Iran. I have no problem

[10:44] attacking you, a man who is the

[10:45] religious leader of Pete Hegseth, a man

[10:47] who's a cosplay crusader who's leading

[10:50] some type of crusade probably you put

[10:51] him on as a Secretary of Defense getting

[10:54] Americans and innocent civilians killed.

[10:56] I wish you would be a better Christian.

[10:57] I wish you would open up the Bible. I

[10:59] wish you would meet the Jesus that I met

[11:01] when I went to an all boy Jesuit

[11:02] Catholic high school. The Jesus that

[11:04] took care of the sick, that took care of

[11:06] the poor, that welcomed the immigrant,

[11:08] that welcomed the marginalized, that

[11:09] helped them. But instead, you've used

[11:11] Jesus as a mascot for I don't know, your

[11:14] white Christian supremacy, your cruelty,

[11:16] your misogyny. And I'm so glad that

[11:18] people are finally waking up to your

[11:20] cruelty and to the idiocy of your star

[11:23] disciple Pete Hegseth who keeps messing

[11:25] up and literally does not read the Bible

[11:27] and quotes Pulp Fiction. Just sit with

[11:29] him. Maybe both of you could read the

[11:31] Constitution, read the Bible, and just

[11:33] take a break, Pastor. Just take a break.

[11:35] Yeah. Who left? All right, Pastor, your

[11:38] response.

[11:39] Just incidentally, we know that Jesus

[11:41] was not a socialist because he could

[11:43] actually feed people.

[11:48] Wonderful. Great response.

[11:50] That's what you got. [laughter]

[11:52] Um, man, Doug, I don't

[11:54] >> fair to to be fair to the man of the

[11:55] Pastor, he probably the Pastor would

[11:57] have probably got a better support from

[11:58] Michael Knowles, but unfortunately, we

[12:00] can't find we can't find Michael

[12:01] Knowles, which is why he hasn't

[12:03] >> It's hard to find a Michael Knowles who

[12:04] appears. I get it's tough for you. It's

[12:06] a really tough job. It's supposed to be

[12:07] a debate show, but the war is so stupid

[12:10] that literally the only person who seems

[12:12] to be for it is Mark Levin, you know,

[12:14] and you can't have him on three times a

[12:16] week, you know, life, liberty,

[12:17] Levin, micro penis Mark. But nobody else

[12:20] can offer a coherent case for this war.

[12:23] And so, obviously, Michael Knowles

[12:24] doesn't want to come on. And you have

[12:25] you have Doug over here who come and who

[12:27] is already basically saying he's going

[12:29] to be against it if it goes along on

[12:31] much longer. So, it's challenging

[12:32] because it's the war is so stupid.

[12:34] That's why it's challenging because the

[12:35] war is stupid.

[12:36] >> Well, I would say I would say I would

[12:37] say that I would say that Michael

[12:39] Knowles Michael Hang on, Pastor. My

[12:40] Michael Knowles doesn't duck debates. I

[12:42] don't know I think we've had a breakdown

[12:43] of communication. We'll find out what

[12:45] happened. But it's a shame cuz I think

[12:46] he would have probably the Pastor does

[12:48] feel a bit on his own at the moment. So,

[12:50] Tim Miller, I mean, it's it's a very

[12:51] interesting split that is occurring

[12:54] here. I'm just again slightly baffled by

[12:56] Trump's strategy of just dumping all

[12:58] over all these people. He did the same

[13:00] to Riley Gaines last week when she quite

[13:01] rightly said she didn't like the imagery

[13:04] of of Jesus and so on. No no Christian

[13:06] should like the President of the United

[13:07] States doing that. But he's he's started

[13:10] lashing out at people who have been very

[13:12] supportive of him historically, recent

[13:14] historically.

[13:16] What does that tell you about what is

[13:17] going on here? And what does it mean for

[13:20] say the midterm elections and the 2028

[13:22] election?

[13:24] Yeah, well, I I think I can explain

[13:26] what's going on here pretty simply. And

[13:28] that is that Donald Trump has done a

[13:29] series of things as President that have

[13:33] caused backlash among his own voters and

[13:36] are starting now with the Iran war to

[13:38] negatively impact their lives. I think

[13:40] folks were upset about the Epstein files

[13:42] cover-up, of course. That didn't really

[13:44] affect them personally, but they cared

[13:45] about that issue. And then he and when

[13:48] he did it, that caused that kind of

[13:49] started the backlash among the MAGA

[13:50] base. But now with this war, look, he he

[13:53] didn't make the case for this war with

[13:55] anybody, including his own voters. And a

[13:57] lot of people went and voted for him

[13:59] because they were under the impression

[14:00] that he was going to be opposed to this,

[14:03] that he was the candidate that was not

[14:04] going to get us into dumb Middle East

[14:05] wars cuz that's what he told them. And

[14:07] so, you just have to put your head in

[14:10] you know, put yourself in the mind of

[14:11] one of these voters who who one day woke

[14:14] up, went to the gas station, and all of

[14:16] a sudden it cost 10 more bucks to to

[14:17] fill up their tank. And they're like,

[14:18] "Why? I can't afford this. You know, I'm

[14:21] going to have to tighten my belt in

[14:22] other places." And like the answer

[14:24] that's being provided is, "Well, you

[14:26] know, we had to do this war in Iran

[14:27] because we have to degrade the number of

[14:29] ships that they have." It's just like

[14:30] nobody

[14:32] nobody can understand it. It is

[14:33] nonsensical. And so, they're starting to

[14:35] get upset. And so, you know, in the

[14:37] past, Donald Trump has been able to

[14:39] bully

[14:40] media members or members of the

[14:42] Republican Party who step out of line

[14:44] because the voters are with them. You

[14:45] know, you just look at any in the past

[14:47] of of any of the Republicans who have

[14:48] tried to criticism criticize Trump and

[14:50] then Trump goes back at them harder, and

[14:52] then they back off. Like we've seen this

[14:54] a bunch. Why has that worked every time?

[14:56] Well, it's worked because the voters

[14:57] have been with Trump every time. Like

[14:58] the MAGA base was with Trump in these

[15:00] arguments. The MAGA base isn't with him

[15:02] in the arguments anymore.

[15:04] So, the bullying doesn't work, right?

[15:05] You know, if this was a case where, you

[15:07] know, if Trump attacked Tucker Carlson

[15:09] and Meghan Kelly, their ratings went

[15:11] down, I don't I you know, who knows? My

[15:13] guess is maybe they would modulate.

[15:14] Maybe they'd start talking about

[15:15] something else. Or if he started going

[15:17] after the Republicans on the hill who

[15:19] criticized him, and their and they their

[15:21] voters had a backlash against them, then

[15:23] they would back down. We've seen that a

[15:24] million times. That's not happening this

[15:26] time because people are pissed because

[15:29] the war is stupid, he didn't make a case

[15:31] for it, and [snorts] and and they're

[15:33] being harmed. Even they knew Even George

[15:36] W. Bush knew

[15:37] a war in Iran would be disastrous. It

[15:39] would be a quagmire. We're about 8 weeks

[15:41] in. He cannot get out, Pierce. He is

[15:44] stuck, but his ego makes him doubling

[15:46] double down on this failed war.

[15:48] Everything's getting worse. His base is

[15:50] finally fed up.

[15:52] I I just like how you guys are now

[15:53] appealing to you.

[15:55] Sure. I just like how you guys are now

[15:57] appealing to to authorities like Fuentes

[16:00] and Candace and Alex Jones.

[16:04] But the war is so stupid that me and

[16:06] Candace finally agree on something. I

[16:07] mean, you're correct. She is a big liar.

[16:09] I don't think [laughter] that the first

[16:10] lady of France has a dick. But we do

[16:12] agree that the war is that dumb. Yeah,

[16:14] that's that's we're on the same page on

[16:16] that one thing. 80% of Americans

[16:19] >> It's certainly been

[16:21] Well, it's certainly an interesting

[16:22] fusion of people that I would never have

[16:24] thought would ever agree about anything

[16:26] going on. Guys, thank you all very much

[16:28] indeed. I'm sorry that Michael didn't

[16:30] join us. That was I think some kind of

[16:31] communication breakdown, but we'll get

[16:33] him back next time. Thank you all very

[16:34] much.

[16:35] See you guys.

[16:36] >> Thank you.