Tim Miller and Jane Coaston Dissect Charlie Kirk's Thought Crime Podcast and the Pipeline Radicalizing Young Conservatives

[00:00] there is an appeal to younger

[00:02] conservatives who want to be contrarian

[00:03] who want to be who want to feel like

[00:06] they're a rebel or whatever and and and

[00:09] they're getting drawn in down the

[00:11] Charlie Kirk pipeline not the Charlie

[00:12] cook pipeline oh that was a good line

[00:14] that was a really good line I just

[00:16] pulled it off right off top of my

[00:17] [Music]

[00:24] head hello and welcome to the bull

[00:26] podcast I'm your host Tim Miller and I'm

[00:28] delighted to be here with my fellow

[00:30] fellow at the University of Southern

[00:31] California Jane Cen contributing opinion

[00:34] writer to the New York Times an on air

[00:36] contributor to CNN Jane thanks for doing

[00:40] this thanks so much for having me Tim

[00:42] thanks for doing this you're on a Linton

[00:44] Twitter hiatus tell me about that I take

[00:47] a break every year from Twitter because

[00:50] Twitter it I feel like it constricts

[00:54] your mind in such a way I used to tell

[00:57] someone that like the trick to Twitter

[00:59] is to only tweet 10% of the things you

[01:01] think you want to tweet and it's even

[01:04] better if you just like don't say

[01:05] anything at all for a long period of

[01:07] time you know how many times there's a

[01:09] thing on Twitter and then you try to

[01:10] explain it to someone who's not on

[01:11] Twitter and you're like this is just

[01:13] stupid it's nice to not do that it's

[01:16] nice to not have a like what is

[01:18] happening who is this person why are we

[01:20] all yelling at this one person because

[01:23] especially now that um Twitter has been

[01:26] gamified to such an extent like so much

[01:29] of it is like you have a blue a blue

[01:32] check mark verification and all you're

[01:34] just saying is stuff to drive engagement

[01:36] so people yell at you and you make money

[01:38] and I'm like I'm not gonna help you make

[01:40] money no so why are you going back why

[01:43] are you going back I think um that's an

[01:47] excellent question and I think that's

[01:49] because um I'm asking for me really I

[01:54] am an addict an addict I have a problem

[01:58] um I'm also on Blue Sky like three

[02:01] fourths of the conversations on Blue Sky

[02:03] are like did you see what happened on

[02:05] Twitter oh my god did you see this

[02:08] [ __ ] guy this [ __ ] guy said this

[02:11] [ __ ] thing and you're like we all

[02:13] transferred out of a high school but we

[02:14] can't stop talking about that high

[02:16] school so can I just say though this

[02:19] makes sense this is something I I've not

[02:21] tried Blue C this is something that's

[02:22] frustrating about threads you know the

[02:24] addictive Char of Twitter is the

[02:25] fighting the winning and the owning

[02:28] right and so if you go to a space yes

[02:30] where you're not fighting and that's

[02:32] everybody says they want they're like oh

[02:34] what I really would like is a community

[02:36] where everybody agrees with me and we

[02:37] can talk in good faith be good natured

[02:40] about things and it's like what turns

[02:42] out that is very boring you know with

[02:45] without the foes what is what is the

[02:48] point well it's interesting because blue

[02:50] sky is a place in which you have

[02:52] different foes like blue sky is where

[02:56] all the tankies are so you wind up

[02:58] having arguments with like hardcore

[03:01] tanky

[03:01] leftists and you end up coming out like

[03:05] you sound like a neocon but it just

[03:08] because like you are a person who thinks

[03:10] that maybe Stalin had some downsides um

[03:14] and like it it's it's a fascinating

[03:17] place because it's like political

[03:18] ideologies that you're like I didn't

[03:20] even know they made those like it's just

[03:22] like you're a Peruvian

[03:24] maist you're you're a who like I have to

[03:27] go back and try to remember like post

[03:30] 1945 political ideological formations to

[03:34] just be like who are you I will say that

[03:38] it what you were saying about how people

[03:39] you know like oh I don't want drama I

[03:42] don't want to fight or something like

[03:43] that yes they do and the people who say

[03:45] that want it the most it's like how um

[03:48] during this time I've uh decided

[03:51] apparently to watch all of Real

[03:52] Housewives of Salt Lake City which is

[03:54] amazing television in every way but as

[03:57] with any reality franchise the person

[03:59] person who says I don't want drama wants

[04:02] drama they want the most drama they want

[04:04] to fight they want to fight all the time

[04:07] and because if you don't want to fight

[04:09] generally you don't have to say that

[04:11] like you don't need to clarify that you

[04:13] do not want to have an argument you just

[04:14] simply don't have an argument but yes so

[04:17] the 40 days is good um it's it's funny

[04:21] though because the first time I did this

[04:22] was in 2020 so I came back and I was

[04:26] like oh Global pandemic well there has

[04:29] been a global tmic way you've been gone

[04:31] but I am I regret to inform you that

[04:33] some M much of this podcast will be us

[04:35] talking about what uh people are doing

[04:36] on the internet I care deeply about it

[04:39] I'm fascinated by it I'm convinced it

[04:41] matters in a way that I haven't yet been

[04:43] able to truly articulate because um I

[04:46] wrote a piece in 2020 which I think

[04:48] still holds up that like Donald Trump

[04:50] was too online yeah and like we saw this

[04:53] again with Ronda santis like there's a

[04:54] degree of being so online that you only

[04:58] refer to things that happen online and

[05:00] you think everyone knows what you're

[05:01] talking about that's bad but there is a

[05:05] lot you can learn from how people

[05:07] perform their politics or their culture

[05:09] online and then they try to take it to

[05:12] normal people and many times they sound

[05:16] insane but it's still interesting and

[05:18] worth talking about well uh this uh

[05:22] transitions nicely into one of the clips

[05:24] that I wanted to play for you um when it

[05:26] comes to what is happening on the online

[05:28] right I have

[05:30] become kind of fascinated with um

[05:34] Charlie Kirk's podcast that airs once a

[05:37] week called thought crime where it's

[05:39] just a bunch of bros just a bunch of

[05:41] white guys talking about some of their

[05:43] thoughts that maybe shouldn't be said

[05:45] out loud and yet they're going to say it

[05:47] out loud every week and if you just if

[05:49] you just bear with me because I do think

[05:51] that um it that we both agree on this

[05:54] that that it's easy and right to laugh

[05:57] and make fun of them uh about this but

[06:00] also uh it's disturbingly influential

[06:03] and pernicious so eron if you don't mind

[06:06] everybody just bear with us for a

[06:08] highlight reel of some of my recent

[06:09] favorites from Charlie Kirk you could

[06:11] have like brought to you by Coca-Cola

[06:14] and no I'm not kidding by the way I

[06:15] would totally tune in to see some petto

[06:17] get their head chopped off convicted by

[06:19] a jury years that's no I'm talking about

[06:22] a real thing I'm talking I'm not talking

[06:24] executions in b or by firearm that's not

[06:26] a choice or anything Andrew saying don't

[06:28] make kids watch it I think no the ab a

[06:31] certain age an initiation you can drive

[06:33] you can watch all of a sudden you look

[06:36] at some of these Savages like in Indiana

[06:38] there was this guy that went in and

[06:39] killed a pregnant woman and her three

[06:40] kids yeah and you know what I want to

[06:42] watch that execution that'll make my day

[06:44] better I want to see him on a public

[06:46] block and get him be publicly executed

[06:49] and I think that would be Justice you

[06:51] think children should have you should

[06:53] see what is the age that at what age

[06:56] should you start to see public

[06:57] executions 16 I think

[06:59] I think you could do it earlier I think

[07:01] you maybe at age 12 sixth grade or so we

[07:04] see this where Mass Shooters across the

[07:05] country who are trans law enforcement is

[07:08] more interested in using the proper

[07:10] pronouns than actually finding Justice

[07:13] or saying this Dispicable person doesn't

[07:16] deserve our attention who cares what

[07:18] their pronouns you know what the

[07:19] pronouns are Savage animal that's the

[07:21] pronouns and has joelin come out and

[07:24] said that the wicked trans ideology is

[07:27] to blame for this no no he has not uh I

[07:31] have not seen him come out and say

[07:33] anything other than uh it's unfortunate

[07:35] what

[07:36] happened long until uh Taylor Swift and

[07:39] Travis Kelce are no more over under

[07:41] Blake like until they're dead I I could

[07:43] see their suicide fact taking effect not

[07:45] that one not when the MRN AG altering

[07:47] shot makes Travis Kelce drop in the

[07:49] middle of practice that one's way more

[07:50] fun I'm talking about when will they no

[07:52] longer be together I don't think they're

[07:54] together now I think this is all a s up

[07:57] what what's the goal of the S up Toe

[08:00] with you you agree Jack that just to

[08:03] make money she's nasty she's ugly nobody

[08:06] likes her lik she look like a teenage

[08:09] boy like dudes don't like her like if

[08:12] you put her in front of like she's ugly

[08:14] that's true yeah is does Taylor Swift

[08:16] have any eggs left I don't think she I

[08:18] don't know if she had to start

[08:20] with so to recaping wisdom yeah great

[08:24] Camp children should watch

[08:27] executions um Taylor Swift uh I guess

[08:31] doesn't have any eggs it's too old

[08:32] Travis Kel's going to Super Bowl

[08:34] champion is going to die uh from the

[08:36] fake

[08:37] vaccine uh what do we I had to cut out

[08:39] the clip about how we talk too much

[08:41] about Martin Luther King Day and the

[08:42] Civil Rights Act uh you know just a lot

[08:45] of wisdom there um what that just just

[08:49] kind of rate your level of disturbance

[08:52] versus desire to give a wedgie after

[08:55] listening to that I think it's extremely

[08:57] important to make fun of

[09:00] giant bad dorks like I think it's very

[09:03] important like I refuse to respond to

[09:06] say like neo-nazis marching in Nashville

[09:10] by being afraid of them like these are

[09:13] America's biggest dorks and they should

[09:16] be mocked like imagine hanging on to an

[09:18] ideology That was supposed to last a

[09:20] thousand years and lasted for 12 like

[09:22] come on like it couldn't even make it

[09:25] into a PG-13 movie I'm not going to be

[09:27] afraid of these people I fuse and it's

[09:30] it's also indicative of the fact that

[09:31] like Charlie Kirk has probably never

[09:33] really had like an actual group of

[09:36] friends because all of their

[09:37] conversations seem like they're trying

[09:39] to have like normal bro time but it's

[09:41] like a a normal bro time if you told an

[09:44] alien what dudes talk about and then he

[09:46] was like all right I'll interpret it but

[09:48] like it is concerning to me because I

[09:50] think that it is a fascinating example

[09:52] of audience capture um a couple of years

[09:55] ago Charlie Kirk he was um doing a

[09:58] college tour for with Turning Point USA

[10:01] he and I think it was also Donald Trump

[10:03] Jr was with him and also um Dan Kena

[10:07] representative Dan kensaw and they were

[10:09] getting just bered by this grer movement

[10:13] gers are uh white nationalist followers

[10:17] of Nick Fuentes one of America's great

[10:20] dorks um racist awful person anyway so

[10:25] every event these people would show up

[10:27] and start screaming like anti-Semitic

[10:29] conspiracy theories at Charlie Kirk and

[10:31] at kenon and Donald Trump Jr it was a

[10:33] giant issue for

[10:35] tpusa and you've seen over the last

[10:37] couple of years that Charlie Kirk has

[10:39] basically decided like you know what I

[10:41] think they were right they talking about

[10:43] Israelis celebrating after 911 those

[10:45] people good points good points and so I

[10:49] think it's an a really good example of

[10:52] segmented audience capture like this

[10:55] doesn't sell like there are not millions

[10:58] of American who are like you know what I

[11:00] want to hear more about how Martin

[11:01] Luther King is a bad person like that's

[11:04] just not a thing people want but it is

[11:06] something that a segment of this

[11:08] audience wants so much that they

[11:11] overwhelm anyone else and you've seen

[11:13] that with tpusa they've had to disband

[11:15] their ambassadors program because their

[11:18] ambassadors kept being like I think Jews

[11:20] hate Jesus like I like they kept just

[11:23] going wilding out on the internet

[11:26] because I mean I'm sure that they

[11:27] actually hold these views but also

[11:29] because the the you know the way

[11:33] audience capture works and I keep using

[11:35] that term because I think it's so

[11:36] interesting there's a great substack on

[11:37] the subject which is basically that like

[11:39] once you have an audience they don't you

[11:42] don't have them they have you and if you

[11:46] say you're a content creator on YouTube

[11:48] if you are like all I want to do is cook

[11:51] sometimes you will wind up like cooking

[11:54] 20 meals a day and doing all these

[11:56] videos about how you cook 20 times a day

[11:58] or something like like that like the

[12:00] audience will drive you deeper into

[12:03] whatever it is that you're doing and so

[12:06] if your audience wants to they want to

[12:08] see more and they want to see bigger

[12:11] versions of whatever content you create

[12:13] and I think that what has happened to

[12:16] Charlie Kirk is that the audience that

[12:20] he has now is simultaneously people who

[12:24] hate him and people who desperately want

[12:28] and will continue to demand more

[12:31] Fringe red pill racist content they want

[12:36] to hear about how Taylor Swift is too

[12:39] ugly to live and they want to hear about

[12:41] how uh you would not want to get on a

[12:43] plane with a black pilot like they want

[12:45] to hear this and so the more that

[12:48] everyday people everyday conservatives

[12:51] even are pushed away from this type of

[12:53] content the more the people who really

[12:55] like it are like yes yes give me more of

[12:57] that I will reshare it and retweet and

[12:59] it's I don't know it's it's sad in a way

[13:02] it's not like oh I wish Charlie Kirk

[13:04] could do better cuz I'm like I don't

[13:05] know if there is a better but it is sad

[13:09] to me to see that the content has been

[13:11] driven into this awful well do better

[13:13] Charlie Kirk I I guess um you know and I

[13:17] I really should have included the I'm

[13:18] scared of black Pilots now from that was

[13:20] a thought crime classic uh from Charlie

[13:22] Kirk I want to push back a little bit on

[13:24] one element though I do think some of

[13:26] this is audience capture but I I also

[13:28] think that there is audience um molding

[13:32] that's happening from the top down and I

[13:34] and I just I base that on having gone

[13:37] now for many years to various tpusa

[13:40] events oh yeah I've banned the crowd

[13:44] yeah and my favorite question oh well uh

[13:47] luckily they maybe after this podcast

[13:49] I'll be banned too but uh I I you know

[13:51] luckily they still welcome me um and the

[13:53] same question I always ask every kid the

[13:55] first one I see is why are you here what

[13:57] animates you besides you know

[13:59] potentially getting to have some kissy

[14:01] time with somebody else uh with with a

[14:03] Maga girl or boy depending on uh the the

[14:06] proclivities um and the answers have

[14:09] gotten weirder every

[14:11] year I just I do have to say like like

[14:14] they they are self and so I do think

[14:16] that there's um some you know they're

[14:20] being molded by this stuff they're being

[14:22] radicalized to a certain extent and it

[14:25] is true that that even though this group

[14:27] is a subsect of a subset they are the

[14:29] subset that's going to go like work for

[14:32] Congressman run for State Legislature

[14:35] you know uh go if if God forbid Donald

[14:37] Trump wins again like some of these

[14:39] people are going to be in the Trump

[14:40] Administration and so that to me that is

[14:43] the part that makes it like a little bit

[14:46] more dangerous than just simply audience

[14:48] capture and like when you say things

[14:49] like oh these guys are so weird it's not

[14:51] popular and they're turning people off

[14:53] it's like yeah that's true but they

[14:55] might still be popular enough to get get

[14:58] elected in certain places and to and to

[15:01] be staffers in certain places and that

[15:03] like that's pretty alarming I think that

[15:07] both can be true like yes they are very

[15:09] connected very disconnected from what

[15:10] normal people do like I I had a

[15:13] conversation with someone um Charles CW

[15:16] cook who writes for National Review um

[15:18] talking about the like Mega conspiracy

[15:20] theories around the Super Bowl and he

[15:22] talked about how these people have a

[15:25] totalitarian mindset not like stalinist

[15:28] but the idea that everything should have

[15:30] to be about politics like you cannot

[15:32] talk about anything any movie any

[15:37] sporting event you don't go to sporting

[15:39] events because you know that unless you

[15:42] can make it into a political activity I

[15:45] I think it's particularly telling also

[15:48] that so much of this has been aimed at

[15:50] people who are at activities and people

[15:53] who are generally popular they are also

[15:56] turned off by normal people talking

[15:58] about how how cool they are for the fact

[16:00] that they don't listen to mainstream

[16:02] music they don't watch mainstream

[16:05] television they don't watch sports like

[16:06] they're basically hipsters but way worse

[16:09] white nationalist hipsters yeah when I

[16:11] was hipster in college I just listened

[16:12] to a lot of LCD sound system like these

[16:15] people just suck and so I do think like

[16:18] simultaneously I think that audience

[16:20] capture plays such a big part of this I

[16:22] also think that that Audi like there's

[16:24] this symbiotic relationship of telling

[16:27] your audience that all of your weirdest

[16:29] [ __ ] is cool and awesome and then your

[16:32] audience is like we want weirder [ __ ]

[16:34] and you just keep going back and forth

[16:36] forever into a world in which you know

[16:39] if we go full gper you start talking

[16:42] about how the wor you know the gayest

[16:44] thing you can do is for a man to have

[16:46] sex with a woman like you start being so

[16:50] intentionally off-putting and then

[16:52] telling yourself that you're offputting

[16:53] because you're so brave and interesting

[16:56] no you're just offputting no one likes

[16:58] it

[16:59] it it will seep into our political

[17:01] culture but no one's going to enjoy that

[17:03] yeah but but some it makes you feel good

[17:05] I agree it was it was a lot less

[17:08] pernicious for us hipsters you know

[17:10] mentioning the fact that we liked you

[17:12] know name-checking bands that they

[17:14] haven't heard of like you know the Heat

[17:16] and Gil Scott Heron and you know David

[17:18] Axel Rod the artist not not the not the

[17:21] political strategist like that made us

[17:23] feel cool okay but it was also really

[17:26] annoying and so this is my problem the

[17:28] Charlie cook cook thing though which you

[17:30] see in that interview is that the

[17:33] position of the National Review crowd

[17:35] the M like the the the Republican

[17:36] Egghead crowd right is that like these

[17:39] people that we're talking about you know

[17:41] the cernovich and the and the Charlie

[17:44] Kirks and people that are out there be

[17:45] like we can't even watch football

[17:46] anymore and like it's gone too woke and

[17:48] I don't like Disney I don't show my kids

[17:50] Disney and we're only GNA watch Ben

[17:51] Shapiro movies now like like the the

[17:53] Egghead Republican class said like when

[17:56] they talk about it like he is in that

[17:58] interview with you they're acting like

[18:00] those guys are the weird minority Fringe

[18:02] people and like I'm the mainstream and

[18:05] it's like no Egghead Republican

[18:07] conservatives are an even are an even

[18:09] tinier group and they're shrinking and

[18:11] like there's and as annoying as those

[18:13] other people are there is an appeal to

[18:15] younger conservatives who want to be

[18:17] contrarian who want to be who want to

[18:19] feel like they're a rebel or whatever

[18:22] and and and they're getting drawn in

[18:24] down the Charlie Kirk pipeline not the

[18:26] Charlie cook pipeline right oh that was

[18:29] a good line that was a really good line

[18:31] I just pulled it off right off top of my

[18:32] head yeah I think that it's it's

[18:34] interesting because um there have been

[18:37] intrac conservative battles for pretty

[18:40] much the entire history of conservatism

[18:42] and so like the Battle of like who is

[18:45] the mainstream conservative I think

[18:48] really gets in the way of thinking about

[18:51] like what is conservatism mean to any of

[18:53] these people like Charlie Kirk I he

[18:55] might describe himself as a conservative

[18:58] but but he is I mean he's a republican

[19:01] but I he's not a conservative but like

[19:03] we get into these like definitional

[19:04] battles of what any of this means but I

[19:07] think at least the new generation the

[19:09] tpusa people have figured out oh wait no

[19:12] one cares nobody cares about the

[19:15] three-legged stool and tax policy and

[19:17] limited government and liberty no one

[19:20] cares about that they just like what

[19:22] they want to hear is culture war and

[19:25] celebrity culture conversations and

[19:27] talking about how terrible this new

[19:30] thing is and how much better it would be

[19:32] if something else happened they figured

[19:34] out that this sells better and they're

[19:37] going to keep doing it and people will

[19:39] keep responding to it and there's no

[19:41] there's no off-ramp as much as nobody

[19:44] cares about just like the definitional

[19:46] fights about the word conservative and

[19:49] you know the details of that even fewer

[19:51] people care about that with regards to

[19:53] libertarianism but we are going to cover

[19:55] that topic at the end of this podcast

[19:57] but before we have to do a little bit of

[19:58] news stuff on the intering fights you

[20:01] interviewed Doug Don Bacon a little

[20:03] while ago now but but we have this fight

[20:05] going on in the house and there was one

[20:06] thing that struck me from his interview

[20:08] with you which was he still identifies

[20:12] in these internight and conservative

[20:13] fights as um well you know we've got

[20:17] some National Security conservatives and

[20:20] we've got some social conservatives and

[20:21] we've got some moderate conservatives

[20:23] then we also have this other group over

[20:25] here called the populists and some of

[20:26] them have gotten in as well and and he's

[20:28] like we're all fighting it out and we're

[20:30] all kind of working through it all this

[20:31] is a paraphrase of how he described the

[20:33] house of conference to you and like that

[20:36] is not right the house conference is is

[20:40] entirely run by the populists that he

[20:43] was trying to act like her kind of a

[20:44] fringe group and then everyone else just

[20:46] decides to what extent that they want to

[20:48] go along with them is is essentially how

[20:50] I see it but I'm curious how you assess

[20:53] kind of the the power dynamics in the

[20:55] internal fights in the house

[20:57] particularly with the upcoming you know

[20:59] kind of Ukraine fight that is g Ukraine

[21:02] and Border fight is gonna be happening

[21:03] well it's fascinating because um the

[21:07] house House GOP is in this funny

[21:09] position where everyone hates them and

[21:12] yet they have no reason to stop doing

[21:14] the thing that everybody hates people

[21:16] are furious at them all the time and

[21:18] it's been fascinating to see how the

[21:22] fury aimed at them from wide swaths of

[21:25] movement

[21:27] conservatism is in no

[21:30] way moving them past the things that are

[21:33] making everybody else so mad especially

[21:35] because Trump is fine with it Trump's

[21:38] fine with it so like whatever and it is

[21:41] it's I mean it's been funny seeing

[21:42] people being like Oh for speaker

[21:44] McCarthy well like speaker McCarthy is

[21:47] off like I don't know telling people

[21:49] weird things about Nancy ma like it is

[21:52] and mat Gates yeah he's Kevin mccroy is

[21:56] talking a lot about Matt Gates and Nancy

[21:57] m his sex life and his retirement I one

[22:02] that's the worst sentence I've heard in

[22:04] a really long time two um there's

[22:08] something that happens to Republicans

[22:09] once they either like kick down

[22:11] speakership or retire or something where

[22:13] they just sudden they like the chattiest

[22:15] [ __ ] in the history of time like

[22:16] these are just the messiest [ __ ] they

[22:19] want to go on the confessional and

[22:21] they've got a lot to say and um if

[22:24] you're John Boehner you live your best

[22:26] life just drinking red wine in

[22:28] somebody's backyard while selling

[22:30] marijuana adjacent products through some

[22:33] other means but I I do think though

[22:36] that the business of the house has been

[22:40] ignored for the new business of the

[22:41] house which is generating media content

[22:44] and creating

[22:47] personalities um I've long argued that

[22:50] culture war is perfect um for certain

[22:53] politicians because culture wars don't

[22:55] have an end like there is no way way you

[22:58] know you can't guarantee an end to a

[23:00] culture or it's an ongoing issue that

[23:01] you could always fund raise off of and

[23:04] you can talk about in such big Strokes

[23:06] that it's unsolvable like if you think

[23:09] America has turned away from God there

[23:12] is not like a policy prescription to get

[23:15] America back into God you've seen um the

[23:20] House GOP basically become like they

[23:22] treat every issue like that they treat

[23:24] every single issue as if it is a giant

[23:28] unsolvable moras that they just simply

[23:30] will not deal with you could say that

[23:33] this you know this funding really

[23:34] matters to us we will get it passed you

[23:36] could do that

[23:38] or you could not do anything and um yell

[23:43] a lot which I mean I understand I also

[23:47] enjoy not doing anything and yelling a

[23:50] lot but like I'm not a representative

[23:52] member of Congress yeah it's interesting

[23:55] because I was listening to your I read

[23:57] your bacon interview and then I was

[23:58] listening earlier to interview Dan

[24:00] crenchaw was doing um with with Jamie

[24:03] Weinstein um and

[24:06] I th those are guys that have if they

[24:09] had their DRS would do something right

[24:12] they would like to do something if they

[24:14] had their DWS and yet they're unable to

[24:17] do anything but they also seem unable to

[24:22] be able to act correctly identify the

[24:26] cause of why that can't do anything and

[24:29] that being Donald Trump and the majority

[24:32] or strong plurality of Donald Trump

[24:36] Alkali CEST in their conference because

[24:38] if they did that then they would be cast

[24:40] out and so they end up in this like

[24:43] place of permanent on WE and frustration

[24:46] right where it's like I can't I want to

[24:48] do something I can't really do anything

[24:50] right but I I can't address why I can't

[24:53] do anything so in these interviews where

[24:56] they you know sometimes say sensible

[24:57] things they also end up having to not

[25:00] you know they can't really explain like

[25:02] they have to be like well there's Joe B

[25:04] you know it's like smoking mirrors like

[25:05] well there's Joe Biden and the Democrats

[25:06] are also and they've gone and then the

[25:08] squad is also and right you know and

[25:10] Congress and DC and you know and here we

[25:12] are right no it it's interesting because

[25:15] it it's gotten to the point now where

[25:16] I'm like why are you here like what is

[25:20] the point I'm sure that when Mike

[25:23] Gallagher said to you this week you're

[25:24] right on going I think it is a very bad

[25:27] sign that basically every Republican who

[25:29] is like I would like to complete a task

[25:32] it's like oh this isn't a task

[25:34] completing place this is a task ignoring

[25:37] place that is very telling that there

[25:38] are so many people who don't want to

[25:40] deal with this anymore but I I mean I

[25:42] would argue that I have long said that

[25:46] if you want to be in Congress or if you

[25:47] want to be president that's a sign that

[25:49] you shouldn't be like we should just

[25:50] randomly assign people to serve in

[25:52] Congress or as president just be like oh

[25:55] [ __ ] it's your day sorry and you I've

[25:57] spoken with representative kensaw before

[26:00] and I you know some of these people it's

[26:01] in it's they are so hamstrung by their

[26:05] purported allies like they have

[26:09] infinitely better relationships

[26:13] with Democrats like Cent you Centrist

[26:17] Democrats that they need to pretend that

[26:19] they hate and believe are like assassins

[26:22] of Satan they have so much better

[26:24] relationships with Democrats than they

[26:26] do with like House Freedom caucus people

[26:30] and they need to pretend sometimes

[26:33] pretend otherwise is fascinating to

[26:36] watch Republicans get into Congress and

[26:38] realize that the problem with the

[26:40] Republican party is Republicans caw's

[26:43] answer to all this like the you know the

[26:45] the context around all this is why the

[26:47] Ukraine thing can't get passed right the

[26:48] Ukraine for can't get passed and and and

[26:51] K's like well I mean Tucker I wouldn't

[26:53] even call Tucker a republican like the

[26:55] stuff that Tucker is doing is just he's

[26:57] totally a populist demagogue and and

[26:59] Jamie Weinstein like replies to me he's

[27:01] like Tucker is on the VP short list and

[27:04] I I wanted I'm like screaming into my my

[27:06] my car at Radio I wanted Jamie to be

[27:08] like and also mention that you Dan

[27:09] crenell have no chance to be on the VP

[27:11] short list because like does shouldn't

[27:14] that tell you something right like maybe

[27:16] maybe Tucker is not a classically

[27:18] liberal Reagan Republican but but a

[27:20] party is what it is currently

[27:23] constituted it's currently be like yeah

[27:27] it's not dreams and wishes this is what

[27:29] it actually is and there are more people

[27:32] who are more interested in the Tucker

[27:35] carlones Embrace of a very specific form

[27:38] of populism which I I don't I it's to me

[27:42] I mean I keep this is going to make me

[27:44] sound like a pretentious [ __ ] but

[27:46] when I think about populism like in the

[27:47] history of American populism there's

[27:49] like the populist movement of the early

[27:51] 20th century and talking about William

[27:53] Jennings Bryan and farmers and this

[27:55] populism seems to be so reliant on a

[27:59] populi that I you know I live in Utah I

[28:02] know people I'm I'm with the people and

[28:05] the populism as represented by Tucker

[28:09] Carlson and some folks seem

[28:11] so untethered to the populace that I

[28:16] live around like like why is The Little

[28:19] Mermaid having to be white a populace I

[28:23] see the connection when I talk to people

[28:26] in line at you know Sprouts or something

[28:31] like that people are not saying that our

[28:33] big issue is that in the there's like a

[28:37] background lesbian kiss in the Buzz

[28:40] Lightyear movie like come on like it's

[28:43] it's it's fascinating to watch a

[28:44] populism that seems a completely

[28:47] unwilling like there's an invented

[28:49] populism that I see some writers talking

[28:51] about how like Trump really stands for

[28:53] the working

[28:55] class but then you see Trump and he's

[28:57] like I got sneakers and I'm really mad

[29:00] about the this depiction of me in some

[29:03] Meme and it it's fascinating to watch

[29:06] how so many so many writers are so

[29:07] focused on this idea of populism among

[29:11] Republicans like this idea that they

[29:13] want to expand the social safety net or

[29:15] talk about unions and then you get

[29:17] actual Republicans who are like actually

[29:19] I don't want to do any of those things

[29:21] at all and Jane I just I have to

[29:25] interrupt you there because you're just

[29:26] you're so good at this already at at the

[29:28] podcast transition that I need to let

[29:31] you know that when it comes to the

[29:32] populous sneakers we we just we just

[29:34] have a little bit of audio for you

[29:35] you've been off Twitter so I don't know

[29:36] do you know have you were you aware of

[29:38] that the popular sneakers incl checked

[29:40] uh mediaite which is great because it's

[29:42] like here's everything that you need to

[29:44] know if you want online [ __ ] News

[29:47] and I'm like thank you mediaite you're

[29:49] here for me well for those who have

[29:51] missed it there was an autograph version

[29:53] of the popula sneakers and I want to

[29:55] hear from the winner so what was your

[29:56] winning

[29:58] B9 and let's see the signature all right

[30:02] congratulations congratulations uh

[30:04] $9,000 bid on the populous sneakers do

[30:07] you know have you been able to see yet

[30:09] who the bidder was no I New York Post

[30:12] New York Post finally comes through this

[30:14] afternoon Roman sharf the founder and

[30:17] CEO of luxury watch dealer luxury Bazaar

[30:21] walked away with the never ending High

[30:24] uh Never Surrender highs uh he the that

[30:27] watch maker that watch company Russian a

[30:30] Russian luxury watch CEO has has won the

[30:34] winning bid I I mean I think that's

[30:37] pretty much encapsulates the state of

[30:38] play yep yep um I I will never forget

[30:43] how the 2020 campaign turned into a

[30:46] campaign about boat parades and the

[30:48] Beautiful boter so yeah that's all um

[30:51] this all checks out this all checks out

[30:53] and it's like you know most Americans

[30:56] don't vote

[30:57] and those Americans that do have you

[31:00] know they think about politics in sort

[31:01] of like an adjacent way unless it's

[31:03] local like I live in Salt Lake City

[31:06] where apparently as far as I can tell

[31:08] one of the big issues is that people are

[31:09] Furious about gondolas oh my God

[31:12] gondolas like people they're they want

[31:15] to put a gondola in Cottonwood Canyon

[31:17] and people are very mad about it and

[31:19] then people are mad at the people who

[31:20] are mad about it and I'm just like what

[31:22] is gondolas it's all anyone wants to

[31:24] talk about so like in general people

[31:27] will be like local issues and then like

[31:29] that might affect them and then you see

[31:32] people who are just like the thing that

[31:33] gets me about kind of culture War style

[31:36] populism is that it's issues that don't

[31:38] affect you and you don't live anywhere

[31:40] near and yet you're like you know

[31:42] America will fall because some Seattle

[31:45] school teacher decided to tell somebody

[31:47] about Angela Davis or something like

[31:49] that like and it just is telling how how

[31:53] disconnected that is like that you know

[31:55] from the Beautiful boers to $99,000 bids

[31:59] for ugly ass shoes like it is telling

[32:03] how this movement that was supposed that

[32:06] we I believe were supposed to believe

[32:08] was a movement of like some sort of

[32:10] silent majority is just like it's not a

[32:13] silent majority it's the really loud

[32:15] people who own a bunch of car

[32:16] dealerships in Dayton or a gray Market

[32:19] luxury watch dealer I do want to

[32:21] congratulate Roman uh that is good okay

[32:23] in more serious news um the culture War

[32:26] uh of absurdity occasionally intersects

[32:30] with the cultural war of very serious uh

[32:33] limits on people's rights uh and that uh

[32:37] happened also this week Alabama Supreme

[32:39] Court ruled Friday that Frozen embryos

[32:41] are people and someone can be held

[32:44] liable for destroying them uh decision

[32:47] will imperil inv vitro fertilization IVF

[32:52] uh and affect hundreds of thousands of

[32:53] patients uh who get treatments like it

[32:56] um

[32:58] thoughts well IVF do you think that

[33:00] where do you where do you what do you

[33:02] I'll go back to thoughts is my question

[33:04] I think back to how right after the Dos

[33:09] decision

[33:10] leaked there seemed to be and I I would

[33:14] say I I do not know that there was an

[33:16] actual literal memo I do know that there

[33:18] used to be a time at Salem media which

[33:20] ran a bunch of like uh right-wing radio

[33:23] shows that they literally would have a

[33:24] memo go out every day being like don't

[33:26] talk about this you should talk about

[33:28] this I do not think that there was a

[33:30] literal memo in this case but there

[33:31] seemed to be this Universal thing of

[33:34] like actually if we overturn Row versus

[33:37] way that's not that big a deal um right

[33:40] uh I heard you know um I had a

[33:42] conversation with Kevin Williamson about

[33:43] this in which he was like you know this

[33:45] is going to be we're just going to have

[33:47] the abortion laws of France which people

[33:50] have famously always said you know the

[33:52] pro-life movement has always said we

[33:54] want french abortion law I remember that

[33:56] that was a big deal it was the March for

[33:58] French abortion laws um and I think it

[34:02] was Eric Ericson who said something like

[34:04] no people won't really notice it's just

[34:05] not a big deal um people won't really

[34:08] notice any changes at

[34:10] all and as I have said again and again

[34:13] and again this is the biggest dog

[34:15] catching the car moment in I think

[34:17] American political history because and

[34:20] why I bring this up is that it was never

[34:21] just about abortion it was always going

[34:24] to be about birth control it was always

[34:27] going to be about IVF and reproductive

[34:29] assistance Technologies I spent you know

[34:32] I grew up Catholic and spent a long time

[34:35] in high school trying to be an

[34:36] Evangelical Christian ineffectively um

[34:39] and you read a lot about snowflake

[34:41] children which are embryos that people

[34:44] adopt because every single embryo is a

[34:47] human life um every single one and so

[34:49] you just adopt them and have them

[34:51] implanted and you have rescued a

[34:53] snowflake child and I heard how people

[34:57] talked

[34:58] about um evf that sounds nice actually

[35:01] is something wrong with that that sounds

[35:03] nice well it's if you I mean great if

[35:06] you would like to do that but it also

[35:08] indicates to me a general belief that

[35:11] one IVF is evil because IVF requires

[35:15] that some embryos will not be implanted

[35:19] um that

[35:20] some at some you know IVF is a very

[35:23] challenging and long and expensive

[35:25] process um um and I think that for lots

[35:29] and lots of people who have had it it is

[35:31] a very emotionally challenging time as

[35:34] well because you have to have

[35:35] discussions like which embryo will we

[35:37] implant and how will this work and what

[35:39] does this look like and there has long

[35:42] been a strain of specifically among

[35:44] social conservatives about saying like

[35:46] all of this is evil and awful and all of

[35:49] this is bad because at some point a if

[35:52] you believe that these embryos are

[35:55] equivalent to babies that you are you

[35:58] basically have to murder a baby as a

[36:00] matter of course in order to go through

[36:03] IVF

[36:05] and you you see that with uh people

[36:08] fighting against uh birth control the

[36:10] idea that birth control is a form of

[36:14] murder because it stops the uh

[36:17] fertilized egg from implanting in the

[36:19] uterus that's not how any of this works

[36:23] but if you spent a lot of time in

[36:26] anti-abortion pro-life circles you knew

[36:28] it wasn't just about abortion it was

[36:30] about anything and everything that has

[36:32] to do with sex at all and so it is

[36:36] interesting to me that right after dos

[36:38] came out you could see a bunch of people

[36:40] within social conservative circles

[36:42] seeing the writing on the wall that like

[36:44] this thing that we want this thing we

[36:46] want so badly we have not 100% told

[36:51] everyone what it would mean for millions

[36:54] of other people even the people who are

[36:57] very opposed to abortion people who are

[37:00] opposed to abortion rights get IVs

[37:02] people who are I have plenty of those

[37:04] people in my life yeah so have I lots of

[37:08] people have you know and probably even

[37:10] more people who oppose abortion have

[37:11] also used birth control and you're

[37:13] starting to see a narrative in certain

[37:17] conservative Publications talking about

[37:18] how women are starting to reject birth

[37:20] control and then um I think it was

[37:22] Charles Layman who of the Manhattan

[37:23] Institute was like no they aren't what

[37:26] are you talking about like pulling out

[37:27] stats but like you can see the narrative

[37:30] start building about like re you know

[37:32] enforcing The Comstock laws about

[37:34] sending information about birth control

[37:36] via the mail like you can see where this

[37:40] comes from and so I always think back to

[37:42] how do you know the leak of the dobs

[37:45] decision was talked about as being you

[37:47] know a five alarm alarm fire uh for

[37:50] liberals and um reproductive Justice

[37:53] Advocates but among conservatives there

[37:55] generally was this idea of like like sh

[37:58] don't talk about it right you can see

[38:01] you know based on Alabama you can see

[38:03] that if you are thinking about this as

[38:07] as Jobs is just an abortion decision

[38:09] it's not it's also a decision about IVF

[38:12] it's also about birth control it's

[38:15] basically about anything having to do

[38:17] with people having sex with other people

[38:19] in a way that might result in the

[38:22] development of more people and I think

[38:24] that that is it's really interesting to

[38:27] see how people are reacting to that and

[38:30] I think it it will always be deeply

[38:32] telling for me how the among the first

[38:35] reactions to the end of row was people

[38:38] trying to people trying to tell other

[38:40] people that it'll be just like France

[38:42] the Alabama and France don't have a lot

[38:44] in common hostility to laws that um are

[38:47] going to limit F's ability uh to do IVF

[38:50] is one good thing about being a

[38:52] Libertarian you were once a Libertarian

[38:54] I was you left the libertarian party I

[38:57] did right around the same time I left

[38:58] the Republican party I think I actually

[38:59] beat you to the punch um if if we're

[39:01] looking at the Timeline oh man you Irish

[39:02] goodby before I did uh yeah I think I

[39:05] think I just I got right under the wire

[39:07] on that substack post um but uh I I I

[39:10] saw a quote from pen Gillette and I was

[39:12] like I have to talk to Jane [ __ ] about

[39:14] this like uh you're my number one person

[39:16] to talk to because P pen would had been

[39:17] a prominent libertarian he'd go to

[39:19] libertarian party functions and You' see

[39:21] him doing libertarian speeches and stuff

[39:23] and and he said this in an interview

[39:25] recently I've use the word libertarian

[39:27] in describing myself since I got an

[39:29] email during lockdown when a person from

[39:31] a Libertarian organization wrote to me

[39:33] and said we're doing an anti-mask

[39:35] demonstration in Vegas and obviously

[39:38] we'd like you to head it now pen I

[39:41] looked at that email and I went the fact

[39:42] that they sent me this email is

[39:44] something I need to be very ashamed of

[39:46] and I need to change um boy I just I

[39:49] love that I love anything that that has

[39:51] self-reflection at that level um and so

[39:54] I'm just I was just wanting to hear kind

[39:55] of your reaction to that in your journey

[39:57] and how you assess kind of libertarian

[40:00] stuff these

[40:01] days um well it it's challenging because

[40:05] I think that many people I would argue

[40:09] are small L Libertarians now granted

[40:12] because many people are small L

[40:14] Libertarians for themselves and not for

[40:16] other people um right and we all do this

[40:19] like you everybody had I I wrote about

[40:21] this years ago that everybody has like

[40:23] if I break laws it's fine if you break

[40:26] laws you should be shoted um right but I

[40:29] think that for me

[40:32] libertarianism meant a Civic

[40:35] libertarianism a libertarianism that

[40:37] said that like the power of the state

[40:41] can and is often used for bad purposes

[40:44] um I think especially the more work I

[40:47] did thinking about um restrictions to

[40:50] African-Americans with regard to gun

[40:51] rights thinking about the way that

[40:53] states and state power can be wielded

[40:56] against against the least powerful um I

[40:59] think I still Embrace a Civic small L

[41:03] libertarianism the problem for me with a

[41:05] Libertarian party is okay it's manyfold

[41:09] but I'll stick to three things

[41:11] one they view right now they have been

[41:14] taken over by The Mizz caucus and The

[41:18] Mizz caucus views popularity as they

[41:22] sign that they are doing something wrong

[41:24] um this was in response to to uh I think

[41:26] that there was some talk about RFK

[41:29] running as a Libertarian which would be

[41:30] hilarious because RFK is the least

[41:32] libertarian person to ever live um in

[41:36] many respects for good and for ill and

[41:39] the comment from if I remember correctly

[41:42] the comment from the MZ caucus was you

[41:44] know we would never do this we would

[41:45] never let him use our name when Gary

[41:48] Johnson ran and Gary Johnson run as a

[41:50] Libertarian in um 2016 I interviewed him

[41:53] twice um he told me that he was 50% %

[41:57] Hillary Clinton and 50% Donald Trump I

[42:00] believe no he was 50% Donald Trump and

[42:02] 50% Bernie Sanders so everyone should

[42:05] love him and I thought to myself that's

[42:07] not how that works but he got more votes

[42:10] than any libertarian candidate in

[42:12] history and many Libertarians viewed him

[42:16] as being a giant squish because he said

[42:18] things like maybe you should use a

[42:19] driver's license and

[42:22] like there is a purity spiral the

[42:26] libertarian party has been in for I

[42:29] think probably the

[42:30] past seven eight years and in a moment

[42:36] in which I think more people could have

[42:38] embraced Civic

[42:40] libertarianism especially after not just

[42:43] after the summer of 2020 and the murder

[42:45] of say Ahmed Arbury and George Floyd but

[42:49] after Uvaldi after seeing a bunch of

[42:52] cops who literally were like should we

[42:54] go in and stop this person killing

[42:56] children or should we stand here and do

[42:58] nothing and then punish the people who

[43:00] tried us make us do things we will

[43:02] choose the latter and you actually saw a

[43:04] lot of people being like I didn't know

[43:06] cops did this like if this is is this

[43:08] why people are so mad at the police and

[43:10] like every Civic Li you I'm sure Bradley

[43:12] Bal somewhere was like yeah

[43:15] yeah but you know and I think that that

[43:19] was something that was a moment in which

[43:21] a Libertarian party could have a version

[43:23] of the libertarian party that doesn't

[43:25] exist could would have really embraced

[43:28] that instead the libertarian party has

[43:32] rejected the mainstream kind of similar

[43:35] to our earlier conversation and they've

[43:37] decided to double down on things like um

[43:40] you know basically that Putin and Biden

[43:42] know the same person or that we should

[43:45] uh

[43:46] repeal you know every civil rights law

[43:50] and uh we should make it IL illegal for

[43:53] LGBT people to be teachers um um lots of

[43:57] stuff about like repealing the 19th

[43:58] Amendment so that women don't vote uh

[44:02] they responded to a moment in which more

[44:04] people were looking for libertarian

[44:07] ideas by saying no what we're going to

[44:12] give you is our sh racist

[44:15] views and I think that that's something

[44:18] I mean that's the thing that struck me

[44:20] and I think that my third point is like

[44:22] this was a moment in which I didn't know

[44:24] enough about the thing and yet I signed

[44:26] up which is like almost every

[44:29] Subscription Service I have and yet I

[44:31] did this for my political party like I

[44:33] think that I had an idea that I was

[44:36] really irrit you know I didn't was not

[44:39] going to become a Republican and I was

[44:42] really displeased by how Democrats were

[44:44] viewing the role of state power um

[44:48] basically saying you know in like give

[44:50] all us all of the Power and being like

[44:52] no maybe NE no none of you should be

[44:54] able to do any of this and the

[44:56] libertarian party to me was like ah this

[44:58] is an option for you I read reason like

[45:01] I this was an option for people who were

[45:03] interesting and thoughtful and wanted to

[45:05] be kind of to make a statement about how

[45:08] there was another choice to be made this

[45:11] idea within libertarianism has always

[45:13] you know to me and obviously I don't

[45:15] know everything clearly but it seemed to

[45:18] be this battle between like we could

[45:20] make Civic life better for more people

[45:23] or we could argue that it's okay to sell

[45:26] your own children and that actually we

[45:29] should let cops kill more people because

[45:32] those people just don't deserve to be

[45:33] alive and it's like what and so I think

[45:37] that for me I mean I think that it goes

[45:39] to um what pend that talking about how

[45:44] when you know it's not about government

[45:47] enforcing mask policies it's about

[45:50] having an anti-mask rally because you

[45:52] just hate masks and I think that that

[45:54] was something where it's like

[45:56] this has nothing to do with government

[45:57] enforcing anything this has to do with

[46:00] like we just don't like it and like

[46:03] becoming the party of we just don't like

[46:06] it like becoming the party of

[46:09] oppositional Defiance disorder like we

[46:11] already have one of those we don't need

[46:14] another one that's somehow weirder and

[46:16] worse well this is my like final

[46:19] question this is the thing that I kind

[46:20] of I meditate on this with regards to

[46:23] Republican stuff and and a bunch of

[46:25] things if there's no practical

[46:28] implication where something works then

[46:31] maybe there's something fundamentally

[46:32] flawed about it I mean and that's I do

[46:34] wonder that about libertarianism right

[46:36] like if because I you know I I there's a

[46:39] lot of appealing things to me about

[46:40] libertarianism I I considered myself a

[46:43] Libertarian Republican at one point yeah

[46:45] um and uh you know and but the question

[46:48] is if you cannot if anytime something is

[46:53] uh is put into practice it it gets

[46:56] warped into this like gross racist

[46:59] oppositional Defiance disorder you know

[47:02] group then does that say something about

[47:05] the idea at its fundamental level or can

[47:08] the idea still be pure but it's the

[47:11] people who are about

[47:13] um both I think that there are ways in

[47:17] which libertarianism can influence

[47:20] policy in good ways like I think that

[47:23] for instance having a Loosey Goosey

[47:25] approach to say housing zoning is great

[47:30] um something I really like about Salt

[47:31] Lake City is that as far as I can tell

[47:35] if you would like to build housing in a

[47:37] place and you're like not you know it's

[47:40] not federal land or something like that

[47:42] and you want to build a single family

[47:44] home or a multif family domain fine go

[47:48] nut so you actually have in my

[47:49] neighborhood you know you have an

[47:51] apartment building next to a single

[47:52] family home and people don't explode

[47:55] like people have not like you know

[47:57] started committing murder in the streets

[47:59] or something like that I do think like

[48:01] there are ways in which libertarianism

[48:02] can influence policy for good but I do

[48:06] think that using that wielding

[48:10] libertarianism itself and attempting to

[48:12] make that an all-encompassing

[48:14] ideology I think is really a bad idea I

[48:18] mean I think that you know you wind up

[48:19] in that kind of true libertarianism has

[48:21] never been tried kind of thing of like

[48:23] ah you know if it weren't for these you

[48:26] know if only the little father knew

[48:28] about how great it would be if I don't

[48:30] know we all lived free and died harder

[48:33] or something but like I do think that

[48:36] libertarianism can be a

[48:38] helpful corrective like so many people

[48:42] do the um you know won't somebody take

[48:46] care of the kids or someone should do

[48:49] something like the someone should do

[48:51] something about that impetus is

[48:53] generally bad and I think Libertarians

[48:56] are generally correct on that front when

[48:58] it's like hey that bill that says it's

[49:01] going to keep our children safe it

[49:03] probably won't keep our children safe

[49:05] it's probably bad any bill that's named

[49:07] about like rescue baby bunnies or keep

[49:10] our children safe from evil or something

[49:12] it's probably bad yeah like there should

[49:15] probably be fewer laws and how those are

[49:18] laws are enforced should perhaps be more

[49:21] even and equal but I think that that

[49:23] that has not that's not libertarianism

[49:26] that's like libertarian those are two

[49:28] different things to me um this is all to

[49:31] say that if a political party really

[49:34] appeals to you um you should probably

[49:37] not join it you should probably if if

[49:39] something appeals to you directly don't

[49:41] do it whatever it is like it's sort of

[49:44] like how um no no need to be a joiner no

[49:47] don't join things it's sort of like how

[49:49] like if a religious group is like super

[49:51] interested in you don't join it nope

[49:54] nope nope anyone who's interested in you

[49:57] stay away I love an individualist ethos

[50:00] is a wonderful way to end this podcast

[50:01] Jane you are just a pleasure I don't

[50:04] know we could probably do a full two two

[50:05] hours on on on libertarianism sometimes

[50:08] so when when you're just bored in Salt

[50:10] Lake and you're just like hey I want to

[50:12] just spend my afternoon just look

[50:14] anytime you know where to find anytime

[50:17] absolutely anytime thank you so much for

[50:18] having

[50:20] [Music]

[50:24] me