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John Oliver Exposes Fetal Personhood Laws: How Women Are Losing Their Constitutional Rights
John Oliver dissects the dangerous expansion of fetal personhood laws across America, revealing how these regulations strip pregnant women of their autonomy and constitutional rights. From forced C-sections ordered via Zoom to jail time for miscarriages, Oliver documents the alarming ways states are treating fetuses as full legal persons while reducing pregnant women to "hosts." With hundreds of women arrested over pregnancy-related issues and false-positive drug tests tearing families apart, this investigation exposes a legal framework that prioritizes potential life over the lives of actual citizens. The piece examines cases from Alabama's IVF embryo ruling to Oklahoma's manslaughter charges for stillbirths, showing how fetal personhood laws create a two-tier citizenship where women become second-class the moment they conceive.
The Rise of Fetal Personhood Legislation
Fetal personhood has evolved from a fringe concept to mainstream anti-abortion advocacy following the Dobbs decision. Approximately one-third of states have established fetal personhood through law or judicial decision, granting full legal rights and protections to fetuses and embryos from conception. This legal framework treats a fetus as a separate unique human with its own rights distinct from the person carrying it.
The concept has deep roots in American politics. In 1984, Ronald Reagan articulated the core argument, stating his belief that unless someone can establish that the unborn child is not a living human being, that child is already protected by the Constitution which guarantees life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all. However, when the Supreme Court decided Roe v. Wade, it explicitly rejected fetal personhood, stating the word "person" as used in the 14th Amendment does not include the unborn.
Despite this rejection, the Court left the door open by holding that states have an important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life. This crack in the door allowed states to gradually expand protections for fetuses. Some states defined a person to include a fetus throughout their criminal codes, while prosecutors in other places expanded their use of child abuse and neglect laws to police the conduct of pregnant women.
Post-Dobbs Acceleration and Legislative Creativity
After the Dobbs decision, the guardrails fully came off as state legislators felt empowered to push much more aggressively for fetal personhood legislation. The arguments made in support of these laws have ranged from constitutional to creative, with some lawmakers offering particularly unusual justifications.
During a 2023 hearing, a North Dakota state legislator argued for fetal personhood by challenging anyone to show him the first kangaroo or plant that came out of a woman's womb. This bizarre reasoning exemplifies the disconnect between the medical and biological complexities of pregnancy and the simplistic frameworks being imposed by law.
The language used by some legislators reveals the underlying assumption that pregnant people are merely vessels. In 2017, an Oklahoma legislator referred to pregnant people as "hosts" when discussing abortion legislation. When questioned about this dehumanizing terminology, he defended himself by claiming he went to Webster's dictionary and couldn't find a better term. This language strips pregnant individuals of their humanity and reduces them to a function rather than recognizing them as full persons with rights and autonomy.
Criminalization of Pregnancy Loss
One of the most disturbing applications of fetal personhood laws involves the criminalization of miscarriages and stillbirths. Hundreds of women across the country have been arrested or lost custody of their children for reasons related to their pregnancies. The cases demonstrate how quickly the legal recognition of a fetus as a separate victim can be weaponized against pregnant individuals.
Brittney Watts, a 33-year-old Black woman from Ohio, went to the hospital multiple times after bleeding during her pregnancy. After returning home, she suffered a miscarriage and was subsequently charged with abuse of a corpse. In Alabama, a woman suffered a miscarriage after being shot and was then charged with manslaughter for the death of her unborn child.
Cherry Mason from Oklahoma tested positive for drugs at the hospital after a stillbirth and ended up taking a plea deal for manslaughter. Despite not believing she was guilty, she felt she had no choice, explaining in her words that she knew the way it works in Oklahoma. She received a 12-year prison sentence, which took her away from her other children, and was required to register with the state as a violent offender upon her release. According to prosecutors, they were making an example out of her.
Mason's daughter provided a devastating assessment of the situation, stating that her mother was more than an example and that the family needed her. She questioned whether the system truly wanted to help people with addiction or simply wanted to make people with addiction go away.
Forced Medical Procedures and Loss of Bodily Autonomy
Fetal personhood laws have led to situations where pregnant women lose control over their own medical decisions. Shereice Doy, a professional doula in Florida who had three prior C-sections, hoped to avoid a fourth. After 12 hours of labor in the hospital, she suddenly found herself in front of a Florida judge from her hospital bed.
A nurse wheeled in a tablet with a judge, doctors, lawyers, and others on Zoom. Video obtained by NBC News shows the 32-year-old Black woman in her hospital bed being pulled into a virtual emergency court hearing as Florida state attorneys on behalf of the hospital sought a court-ordered C-section. When Doy asked if she could call a lawyer or a patient advocate, the judge informed her that there's not a constitutional right to counsel in one of these proceedings.
The case exemplifies how fetal personhood laws can strip pregnant individuals of fundamental constitutional rights, including the right to refuse medical treatment and the right to legal representation in proceedings that will affect their bodies and their lives.
Drug Testing and Family Separation
Many hospitals drug test pregnant women and their newborns, often without their knowledge. In at least 27 states, hospitals are required by law to alert child welfare agencies about a positive test. The problem is compounded by the fact that drug tests can be notoriously inaccurate, with false positive rates as high as 50%.
One Connecticut woman, Katie, was told by a nurse after giving birth to her second child that her drug screen tested positive for opioids, specifically morphine. Katie had never taken any opiates or illicit drugs, but she had eaten an everything bagel before coming to the hospital that day. For nearly a month, Katie was only allowed supervised time with her children. Although she was breastfeeding, she had to leave her house at night, describing the experience as torture and pain she had never felt before.
One investigation found that in a six-year period, there were at least 70,000 referrals to law enforcement over alleged drug use during pregnancy across 21 states, a number which is almost certainly an undercount. In many cases, the referrals began with false positive results from flawed drug tests.
The Carrot and Stick Approach
Some lawmakers defend the criminalization of drug use during pregnancy by arguing that fear of jail time will encourage expectant mothers to get clean. One legislator explained the approach as using the carrot and the stick, with the stick being the threat of jail and losing custody, and the carrot being the ability to lead a normal life with one's child if the person tests negative and gets clean.
However, medical professionals point out significant flaws with this approach. First, quitting drugs cold turkey can cause complications that trigger miscarriage or early labor. Second, terrifying expectant mothers with the threat of jail time carries its own set of risks. Doctors emphasize that scaring mothers to the point that they don't come to get health care during pregnancy or don't disclose their drug use prevents them from getting the support and treatment they need, ultimately harming both mother and baby.
As one physician explained, putting the mom in jail and taking the baby away is not protecting the baby. There are many unsafe things women do during pregnancy, such as not taking recommended medication for diabetes, which can be very harmful to both mother and baby, but no one puts them in jail or takes their baby away for those behaviors.
The Wisconsin Case: When Honesty Becomes Criminal
A Wisconsin woman who had been using methamphetamine immediately stopped when she learned she was pregnant. She voluntarily checked into a hospital seeking help for depression and other issues. While there, a urine test came back positive for drugs. When doctors asked her about her past usage, she was completely honest with them.
Her decision to tell the doctors about her drug use was solely motivated by concern for her baby, hoping that if she had done anything wrong, doctors could provide treatment that would help. The ER doctor initially reassured her, saying that all that mattered was that she was there getting help and that her baby would be fine. However, everything changed after the doctor left the room.
When a social worker came into her room and told her there was a hearing and they needed her to come to the conference room right away, she was shocked. She found herself on a speaker phone with a judge. At the temporary physical custody hearing for her 14-week-old fetus, the fetus had a lawyer who was taking a position adverse to her interests and was represented by counsel, while she, who had asked for a lawyer, did not have one and was denied one.
The state didn't allow her to leave the hospital on the grounds that doing so was contrary to the unborn child's best interest. After she refused court-ordered inpatient drug treatment, she was jailed for 18 days, including about 36 hours in solitary confinement.
The Alabama IVF Ruling: Exposing the Double Standard
In a 2024 decision, the Alabama Supreme Court determined that frozen embryos qualify as people under state law, ruling that unborn children are children without exception based on developmental stage. The chief justice in a concurring opinion quoted the Bible, citing the sanctity of unborn life.
The case involved a patient who managed to access the freezer storing frozen embryos at an Alabama fertility clinic. The patient picked up multiple embryos and mistakenly dropped and destroyed them. The state's high court ruled that the patient could be held liable in a wrongful death lawsuit.
This ruling followed the fetal personhood argument to its logical conclusion. If every fertilized egg is a person, then every IVF clinic, which needs to produce many embryos to ensure success, would essentially be a warehouse where human beings regularly die. The ruling led to the pause of IVF services at some clinics in Alabama, creating an immediate crisis for families trying to conceive.
The intense public outcry following the ruling forced Alabama to quickly pass a law aimed at protecting patients and providers from legal liability when embryos are damaged or destroyed during IVF. This rapid reversal exposed the inability of fetal personhood advocates to defend the double standard between their stance on abortion and their stance on IVF.
Political Leaders Struggle with the Logic
Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama demonstrated the incoherence of the fetal personhood position when asked about the Alabama Supreme Court ruling. When asked if he had a reaction to the ruling that embryos are children, he responded that he was all for it, saying they need to have more kids and need the opportunity to do that.
When reminded that IVF is used to have more children and that IVF services were paused at some clinics in Alabama, Tuberville responded that this was for another conversation, while continuing to insist they need more kids and people need the opportunity to have them. When pressed on what he would say to women who no longer have access to IVF as a result of the ruling, he admitted it was a hard question, while still maintaining they want people to have that opportunity.
The exchange revealed the fundamental contradiction at the heart of fetal personhood advocacy: the unwillingness or inability to apply the logic consistently when doing so produces outcomes that are politically unpopular or practically unworkable.
The Creation of Second-Class Citizens
Legal experts and advocates point out that fetal personhood laws effectively create a two-tier system of citizenship. As one attorney explained, there is no way to add fertilized eggs, embryos, and fetuses to the Constitution without subtracting pregnant women. If laws treat fertilized eggs, embryos, and fetuses as if they're entirely separate persons, then women will be subjected to a permanent second-class status.
This framework strips women of fundamental rights and autonomy the moment they become pregnant. It creates a legal environment where the theoretical rights of a potential person take precedence over the concrete rights of an actual person. The pregnant individual loses the right to make decisions about their own medical care, the right to refuse treatment, and in many cases, the right to legal representation in proceedings that will determine what happens to their body.
Solutions and Paths Forward
Some legislators have introduced bills designed to highlight the absurdity of fetal personhood laws. Mississippi's "Contraception Begins at Erection Act" proposed imposing fines of up to $10,000 on those who discharge genetic material without the intent to fertilize an embryo, using satire to expose the one-sided nature of reproductive regulation.
More serious solutions include states repealing or removing fetal personhood language embedded in state law. When states do pass laws that recognize the loss of a pregnancy, they can do so without punishing the person who was pregnant. Ending secret drug tests in hospitals is another crucial reform. At one hospital in Connecticut, doctors are now directed to test only if doing so will inform medical care. Since that policy changed, unnecessary child welfare reports dropped by almost 50% without harming babies. Not a single baby has come into the hospital with uncontrolled withdrawal symptoms since the policy change.
For individuals who are pregnant and live somewhere where they're vulnerable to these legal perils, organizations like Pregnancy Justice and If/When/How run legal helplines that provide support and guidance.
The Stakes for Women's Rights
The expansion of fetal personhood laws represents a fundamental shift in how American law treats pregnant individuals. Even planned, relatively low-risk pregnancies are life and body-altering experiences. The ability to control one's own life and body throughout that experience is not a radical demand but a basic requirement of full citizenship and human dignity.
With approximately 5 million pregnancies in the US each year, about a million of which end in miscarriage and over 20,000 in stillbirth, the potential for these laws to criminalize normal biological processes and turn personal tragedies into legal nightmares is enormous. The framework treats pregnancy loss as inherently suspicious and pregnant people as potential criminals rather than as individuals deserving care, support, and the full protection of their constitutional rights.
The fight over fetal personhood is ultimately about whether pregnant people will be recognized as full citizens with complete bodily autonomy or whether they will be reduced to incubators whose rights are subordinate to the potential life they carry. As these laws continue to spread and evolve, the need for public awareness, legal advocacy, and legislative reform becomes increasingly urgent.
Video Transcript
We're actually going to dive straight in
with our main story this week, which
concerns pregnancy. A great way to still
not get a seat on the subway.
Specifically, I want to talk about
something called fetal personhood. The
concept that a fetus is from conception
a separate unique human with its own
rights distinct from the person it's
rather unavoidably inside. The concept
is unsurprisingly usually associated
with the anti-abortion movement and post
dos it's been getting a lot more
attention.
>> Fetal personhood is a once fringe idea
now at the center of anti-abortion
advocacy. The fetal personhood movement
aims to grant full legal rights and
protections to fetuses and in some cases
embryos. About a third of states have
established fetal personhood by law or
judicial decision.
>> Okay, first nice Horton here's a who
sign there. Though you should probably
know according to Dr. Seuss's biographer
back in the 80s he actually threatened
to sue an anti-abortion rights group
that used that quote on its stationary
after which they backed down which is a
little surprising given stay out of my
business is not usually a
message these groups tend to respond to.
The fetal personhood idea can be
embedded in laws in a bunch of different
ways. And some can initially sound
appealing, like ones that make it a
crime to cause the death of an unborn
child during an act of domestic
violence. But once the law recognizes a
fetus as a separate victim if you get
pregnant, that same logic can quickly be
weaponized against you and in all sorts
of ways. Hundreds of women across the
country have been arrested or lost
custody of their children for reasons
related to their pregnancies. Britney
Watts, a 33-year-old black woman, says
she went to the hospital multiple times
after bleeding during her pregnancy.
Watts returned home where she suffered a
miscarriage. Now she's being charged
with abuse of a corpse. A woman from
Alabama suffered a miscarriage after
being shot. And now she's being charged
with manslaughter for the death of her
unborn child. Wow, that is bleak. If you
suffer a miscarriage after being shot,
you shouldn't be charged with
manslaughter. That's one of those
sentences I never thought I'd end up
needing to say out loud, like cocaine
pollution gives salmon wonderlust, or
young Richard Nixon was hot. Yikes. by
the way, I would let that guy break into
my Watergate hotel. And and that is just
the beginning here because over the
years, the fetal personhood has been the
basis of legal cases involving
everything from a pregnant woman who
fell down a flight of stairs and who was
charged with attempted fetal homicide to
a bonkers story involving this woman.
She was in the middle of a long delivery
and was a professional dueler, by the
way. She'd had three prior C-sections
and hoped to avoid a fourth, only to
find the situation suddenly out of her
hands.
>> She was in her 12th hour of labor in the
hospital when Shereice Doy suddenly
found herself in front of a Florida
judge from her hospital bed.
>> A real judge,
>> a nurse wheeling in a tablet with a
judge, doctors, lawyers, and others on
Zoom. That was exactly when I found out
that we were going to court.
>> Now, this is the craziest thing I ever
seen. Video obtained by NBC News shows
the 32-year-old black woman in her
hospital bed pulled into a virtual
emergency court hearing as Florida state
attorneys on behalf of the hospital
sought a court-ordered C-section.
>> Nobody is here to speak for me but
>> when Dorothy asks if she can call a
lawyer or a patient advocate, the judge
says
>> there's not a constitutional right to
counsel in one of these proceedings.
>> Holy that is a outrage.
Every part of that is wrong, including
that it should be illegal to make a
woman giving birth get on a video call
of any kind. I don't even like being on
a Zoom when I am not giving birth. And
for the record, how 12 hours into labor
was she composed enough to ask for
counsel so calmly there? She could have
REASONABLY SCREAMED PISS
AND CHANGED HER ZOOM
background into a million middle fingers
and any smart judge would have said,
"You're right. That's an entirely fair
point.
Fetal personhood isn't just a fringe
idea. It's been a quiet goal of the
anti-abortion movement for decades now,
but it's been picking up real speed in
recent years. In 2023, a group of
anti-abortion lawyers and activists even
explicitly set a postdo goal of
recognizing fetal personhood. And with
this Supreme Court, I frankly wouldn't
bet against them. So, given all of that
tonight, let's talk about fetal
personhood. where the idea comes from,
all the surprising ways in which it can
be applied, and where things could be
heading next. And let's start with the
fact that the basic concept of a fetus
being its own person with distinct
rights is nothing new. In fact, here is
one of its major proponents laying out
the argument in 1984. I believe that
until and unless someone can establish
that the unborn child is not a living
human being, then that child is already
protected by the Constitution which
guarantees life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness to all of us.
>> Yeah, there he is. It seems you cannot
trace the source of any modern problem
without a cameo from this messy
He truly is the Forest Gump of societal
ills. But the thing is Reagan could
believe that all he liked. It still
wasn't law in the US. In fact, when the
Supreme Court decided Roie Wade, it
explicitly rejected fetal personhood,
stating the word person, as used in the
14th Amendment, does not include the
unborn. However, it did leave the door
open a crack by holding that state has
an important and legitimate interest in
protecting the potentiality of human
life. And that was no small thing
because it meant that as long as states
didn't explicitly ban abortion. They
were legally able to expand protections
for fetuses. And for years, many did
just that. Some states defined a person
to include a fetus throughout their
criminal codes. While in other places,
prosecutors expanded their use of child
abuse and neglect laws to police the
conduct of pregnant women. But after
DOBS, the guardrails fully came off
because state legislators felt that they
could push much more aggressively for
fetal personhood legislation with some
pretty creative arguments, probably none
more so than the one this North Dakota
state legislature made last year. We
have to be brave enough, righteous
enough, and have enough integrity not
only to our oath of office, but to all
the claims of being pro-life and to
being Christian and actually do what the
word of God says. And in case you don't
know if a baby at conception is human or
not, I would like you to show me the
first kangaroo or plant that came out of
a woman's womb.
>> What
on earth are you talking about?
Obviously, no woman is pregnant with a
kangaroo. I I wouldn't blame any woman
who wanted to fool around with one,
especially this guy or indeed this one
right here. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT,
is it? The point is, HERE IS WHAT'S
tricky about all of this. One side is
saying, "Hey, a woman should have a
right to control what happens in her own
body." And the other is saying, "So you
think you give birth to a kangaroo?" And
I honestly don't know how we meet in the
middle there. But the obvious
consequence of these laws is that they
treat the individual carrying the fetus
as something less than a full human. And
the very moment you're pregnant, you
become merely a means to an end. And it
is not like some legislators have needed
much encouragement on that front. During
an interview about an abortion law in
Oklahoma in 2017, this guy, its sponsor,
referred to pregnant people as hosts,
and his justification for doing so
wasn't ideal. When I use the term host,
it's not meant to uh degrade women. Uh I
I actually went and Googled that and I
went to Webster and I couldn't find a
better term.
I mean, look, congratulations, I guess,
on going to Webster or whatever.
But there are only a handful of
situations where it's acceptable to call
a woman a host if she works front of
house at a restaurant, if she invites
you over for dinner, if she has her own
talk show, or if you're talking about
Annabelle, host to the demonic spirit
permanently trapped inside her. And the
thing about fetal personhood is it can
be used not just to limit abortion, but
to criminalize other conduct during
pregnancy seen as jeopardizing a fetus
in any way, like drinking or drug use.
And look, no one is saying that it's a
great idea to drink or take drugs while
pregnant. After all, you don't want your
kid to come out too cool. But for many
substances, the risks to a fetus, while
real, are actually far more complex and
often far less clear-cut than the law
assumes. The problem is the law can take
a zero tolerance approach. And
unfortunately, many hospitals drug test
pregnant women and their newborns, often
without their knowledge. And in at least
27 states, they're required by law to
alert child welfare agencies about a
positive test. But that is a big issue,
especially given drug tests can be
notoriously inaccurate. Just listen to
this woman describe what a nurse told
her right after she'd given birth to her
second child.
>> She told me that my drug screen tested
positive for opioids, for morphine
specifically.
>> Katie says the test results didn't make
sense. She had never taken any opiates
or illicit drugs. But that day, before
coming to the hospital, she did have an
everything bagel. For nearly a month,
Katie was only allowed supervised time
with her children. And although she was
breastfeeding, she had to leave her
house at night.
>> I would leave the house and I would
scream in my car because it I was so
devastated to leave her. Sorry.
>> It's [clears throat] okay. What was that
like?
>> It was torture. I mean, it was pain I've
never felt before.
>> Katie, did you feel that there was a
risk that if you didn't follow
everything you were told to do, you
could lose your children?
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. All of that over a bagel.
It should not be possible for your life
to get up that badly just based
on what you had for breakfast. Unless,
of course, the breakfast in question is
honey smacks, in which case, honestly,
you kind of deserve whatever happens to
you. You're a bad person.
And the thing is, it's common knowledge
that those drug screens are easily
misinterpreted and often wrong with
false positive rates as high as 50%. But
if you need convincing any further,
please enjoy this lawyer that they
talked to for that story, who brought a
magnificent visual aid with her.
>> Here's a cup of my urine. And if I give
it to you, you could test it. Maybe it's
positive, but it can't tell you if I'm
addicted, I'm dependent. And yet, for
thousands of women in this country and
families, probably millions, a drug test
is used as a parenting test.
>> Okay, so a few things. First,
I'm not sure that's quite as exonerating
as you want it to be, as being able to
produce a jar of piss unprompted might
be the most definitely on drugs behavior
I have ever seen. And also, when I'm
completely on that lawyer's side, I
can't help wondering if she's had a cup
of water today.
And even if she has, would she like me
to get her another one?
And referrals to law enforcement over
alleged drug use during pregnancy are
not remotely uncommon. One investigation
found in a six-year period at least
70,000 such cases across 21 states, a
number which is almost certainly an
undercount. And in many cases, the
referrals began with false positive
results from flawed drug tests. But
look, let's acknowledge that sometimes a
positive drug test does indicate that
someone has used drugs. Well, to hear
some lawmakers tell it, we need to
criminalize that because how else are we
going to encourage expectant mothers to
clean up their acts?
>> You use the carrot and the stick. You
know, the stick is, hey, this is hanging
over my head. If I don't get clean, if I
don't get rid of this drug use, then I'm
going to go to jail and I may lose my
child. But if I test negative, if I if I
do a good job of getting clean, I'm
going to get to lead a normal life with
my child. Wait, that is just a terrible
analogy because if the stick is the fear
of going to jail and the carrot is
getting to lead a normal life with your
child, then it feels like the scenario
that you are describing there is the
same as the answer to the question, what
has Owen Wilson been up to lately? by
which I mean mostly stick.
But but doctors will point out some key
flaws with that approach. First,
quitting drugs cold turkey can cause
complications that trigger miscarriage
or an early labor. And second,
terrifying expectant mothers with the
threat of jail time carries its own set
of risks.
>> Scaring the mom to the point that she's
not coming to get health care during her
pregnancy or not disclosing her drug use
so that she can get the support and
treatment that she needs. None of those
things are protecting the baby. putting
the mom in jail and taking the baby away
is not protecting the baby. There are
lots of unsafe things that women do
during pregnancy. I might recommend that
they take a certain medication for
diabetes and they don't take it and
their sugars are really high and that's
very harmful to them and their baby, but
no one's putting them in jail or taking
their baby away.
>> Of course, right? There are plenty of
things women shouldn't be allowed to do
while they're pregnant, but we let them
anyway, like eating sushi or bungee
jumping or driving or math or is anybody
going to stop me right now. I'm listing
things that I, John, think women
shouldn't be able to do. SOMEONE SHOULD
HAVE JUMPED IN AND STOPPED me by now.
None of you are my real friends. That
was a test and YOU ALL FAILED. WE ARE IN
A FIGHT RIGHT NOW.
The point is, babies clearly do better
when their moms go to doctor's
appointments and ideally are not thrown
in jail as part of a carrot and
stick approach. And the way some of
these laws work in practice is an
absolute nightmare. That woman you saw
earlier is by no means the only one who
wound up dragged into court over a
state's concerns for her fetus. Take
what happened to this Wisconsin woman
who'd been using meth, but when she
learned she was pregnant, immediately
stopped. She voluntarily checked into a
hospital seeking help for depression and
other issues. While there, a urine test
came back positive for drugs. And when
doctors asked her about her past usage,
she was completely honest with them. And
for good reason. My decision to tell the
doctors about my drug use was solely so
that if if I did anything wrong and they
could give me something that would help
my baby because of what I had done, I
had no hesitation because he was the
only thing I was thinking about.
The ER doctor was like, "Don't worry.
All that matters is that you're here and
you're getting help now." He's like,
"Your baby will be fine."
He left the room and it started from
there.
>> Now, as you can probably guess, things
didn't go great from that point on,
which shouldn't really be a surprise
because And it started from there isn't
generally the leadin to an uplifting
story. It's an ominous setup right up
there with it was a dark and stormy
night or welcome, welcome, welcome to
last week tonight.
And what followed was a
nightmare because when she tried to
leave the hospital, this happened. When
the social worker came into my room and
said, "There's a hearing. We need you to
come to the conference room right now."
It was a shock. [music]
And then all of a sudden, like there's a
speaker phone in the middle of the room
and she's putting a judge on.
>> This is the time and date set for a
temporary physical custody hearing. The
guardian at item for the unborn child is
Michael Schiffller. Ms. Grath. What's
the county's position on where Ms.
leature is going to be placed until the
child is born.
>> I didn't know what was going on and the
first thing I [music] said was I I don't
want to talk unless I have a lawyer. The
14-week old fetus had a lawyer at this
hearing who was taking a position
adverse to Tammy and was represented by
counsel where Tammy who had asked for a
lawyer did not have one and was denied
one.
>> Yeah, the fetus had a lawyer but she
didn't. And remember, this happened when
she was just 14 weeks pregnant. At that
point, you may not even be able to tell
the sex from an ultrasound. Honestly, if
you tried to do a gender reveal that
early, the closest you might GET IS IT'S
A PLAINTIFF.
And the state didn't allow her to leave
the hospital on the grounds that doing
so was contrary to the unborn child's
best interest. In the end, after she
refused court-ordered inpatient drug
treatment, she was jailed for 18 days,
including about 36 hours in solitary
confinement, which is arguably a weird
thing to do to someone whose health
you're supposedly trying to safeguard.
And amazingly, it can get even worse
because under fetal personhood laws,
pregnancy loss can create yet another
path into the criminal system with
miscarriages and still births sometimes
treated as suspicious. There are
multiple stories of women being
investigated or even charged with
crimes, including murder following a
pregnancy loss, which is utterly bonkers
given that every year in the US there
are approximately 5 million pregnancies.
And of those, about a million end in a
miscarriage and over 20,000 end in still
birth. And some of the worst
consequences of everything that you've
seen tonight have fallen on women like
Cherry Mason, who tested positive for
drugs at the hospital after a still
birth. She wound up taking a plea deal
for manslaughter as a result, not
because she thought she was guilty, but
because, in her words, I knew the way
that it works here in Oklahoma. She not
only got a 12-year prison sentence,
which took her away from her other
children, she was also required to
register with the state as a violent
offender upon her release. And the whole
situation is summed up by her daughter
pretty nicely.
>> It was up to the DA and he basically
said, "They're making an example out of
her." I actually said my mom is more
than an example. Like we need her here.
If you want to get to the core of the
problem, you know, maybe make some kind
of system to where we can help people
with addiction a little bit more. I
don't Sometimes I really don't think
that's what they want, though. I don't
think they they want to just they want
to help people with addiction. I think
they just want to make the people with
addiction go away.
>> Yeah, that is awful. And
honestly, if that had happened to my
mom, I think I'd also have smoked one
K2's worth of cigarettes.
And look, those who push fetal personal
will insist that it's based on a
principled stance about the sanctity of
life from the moment of conception. But
there was an interesting moment two
years ago that exposed a bit of a crack
in that argument and it concerned this
bizarre news story out of Alabama.
>> This morning, a firstofits-kind decision
by the Alabama Supreme Court that could
put families access to fertility
treatments in the post row era at risk.
The court determining frozen embryos
qualify as people under its state law,
ruling unborn children are children
without exception based on developmental
stage. The chief justice in a concurring
opinion quoting the Bible, citing the
sanctity of unborn life. The case in
question involved a patient who managed
to access the freezer storing frozen
embryos at an Alabama fertility clinic.
The patient picked up multiple embryos
and mistakenly dropped and destroyed
them. The state's high court says that
patient can now be held liable in a
wrongful death lawsuit.
>> Okay, setting aside the weird Mr. Bean
antics of that person walking into a
freezer and juggling frozen embryos for
some reason, that might actually be a
pretty useful logic test because I would
argue anything that you can accidentally
spill just isn't a person yet. That
ruling was following the fetal
personhood argument to its logical
conclusion because if every fertilized
egg is a person that would mean that
every IVF clinic which need to produce a
lot of embryos to ensure success
probably then needs to be shut down as
they wouldn't just be storing extra
embryos to maximize the chance of
successful implantation under that
logic. They'd essentially be warehouses
where human beings regularly die. And we
frankly don't need any more of those
given that Amazon has got that beat
nicely covered for us. But in the wake
of that ruling, there was intense public
outcry in Alabama suddenly rushed
through a law aimed at protecting
patients and providers from legal
liability when embryos are damaged or
destroyed during IVF. And I've got to
say it is pretty telling that many of
the often men pushing for fetal
personhood are completely unable to
defend that double standard. In fact,
just watch Senator Tommy Tupperville,
pictured here in natural poses that
scream, "I've touched footballs,"
get asked about that judge's ruling
right after it happened.
>> Do you have a reaction to the Alabama
Supreme Court ruling on the fact that
embryos are children?
>> Yeah, I was all for it. We need to have
more kids. We need to have an
opportunity to do that. And this I
thought this was the right thing to do.
But
>> IVF is used to have more children and
right now IVF services are paused at
some of the clinics in Alabama. Aren't
you concerned that this could impact
people who are trying to have kids?
>> Well, that's for that's for another
conversation. People need to have we
need more kids. We need the people to to
have the opportunity to have kids.
>> Senator, what do you say to the women
right now in Alabama who no longer have
access to IVF, who will not as a result
of this movement?
>> What do you say to them? Well,
that's a hard one. It really is. It
really hard. Uh because again, you want
people to have that opportunity. And and
that's what I was telling her. We need
more kids. Okay. Okay. Enough. Can we
please agree no more laws about women's
bodies made by men who've at some point
definitely Googled when girl put in
tampon? Why not come? Look, whatever the
rhetoric used to justify fetal
personhood, in practice, it effectively
treats women as incubators, as that piss
lawyer from before, complimentary, by
the way, points out, they're effectively
stripping women of their rights and
autonomy.
>> There is no way to add fertilized eggs,
embryos, and fetuses to the Constitution
without subtracting pregnant women. If
we pass laws that treat fertilized eggs,
embryos, and fetuses as if they're
entirely separate, then women will also
be subjected to a permanent secondass
status.
>> Exactly. Women would effectively be
secondass citizens, or as this
likes to call them, hosts. Though
remember, he looked it up in Websters,
and apparently that makes it fine.
[laughter]
So, what can be done here? Well, in some
states, legislators have introduced
bills designed to highlight just how
stupid these laws are, like
Mississippi's contraception begins at
erection act, which proposed imposing
fines of up to $10,000 on those who
discharge genetic material without the
intent to fertilize an embryo, which
frankly means I'm about to owe a lot of
money because I've now seen this picture
and I need TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. BUT
LOOK,
MUCH MORE serious solutions can include
states repealing or removing fetal
personhood language embedded in state
law or at the very least when they pass
laws that recognize the loss of a
pregnancy do so without punishing the
person who was pregnant. We could also
end secret drug tests in hospitals,
which to their credit some have done. At
one in Connecticut, doctors are now
directed to test only if doing so will
inform medical care. And since that
policy changed, it's curbed unnecessary
child welfare reports which dropped by
almost 50% without harming babies. In
fact, since then, not a single baby came
into the hospital with uncontrolled
withdrawal symptoms. And I know this
story has been bleak and very scary. So,
if you are pregnant and live somewhere
where you're vulnerable to the legal
perils that you've seen tonight, you
should know organizations like Pregnancy
Justice and If, when, how run legal
helplines that you can contact at these
numbers. I hate that that is necessary,
but we are where we are. And with any
luck, we won't stay here for long
because look, even planned, relatively
low-risk pregnancies are obviously life
and body altering experiences. And it
does not seem radical to me to want to
be able to control your own life and
body throughout that experience. And
hopefully one day we'll be able to
finally get to a point where no one and
nothing from idiot politicians to
everything bagels can take that
from you.