Up Next
Charlie Kirk Defends Pro-Life Stance Through Science and Reason, Not Just Religion
11:52
Charlie Kirk Defends Pro-Life Stance with Split-Ticket Voter in Powerful Campus Exchange
10:17
Charlie Kirk Debates 20 Woke College Students on Abortion, Kamala Harris, and Border Security at Jubilee
2:03:23
Charlie Kirk is the Founder and President of Turning Point USA, the largest and fastest growing conservative youth activist organization in the country with over 250,000 student members, over 150 full-time staff, and a presence on over 2,000 high school and college campuses nationwide. Charlie is also the Chairman of Students for Trump, which aims to activate one million new college voters on campuses in battleground states in the lead up to the 2020 presidential election. His social media reaches over 100 million people per month and according to Axios, he is one of the "top 10 most engaged" Twitter handles in the world. He is also the host of “The Charlie Kirk Show,” which regularly ranks among the top news shows on Apple podcast charts.
Subscribe on YouTubeCharlie Kirk Debates Abortion with College Students: When Does Life Begin and Why It Matters
Charlie Kirk engages in multiple intense debates with college students on abortion, challenging their views on when life begins, bodily autonomy, and human rights. Throughout the conversations, Kirk systematically dismantles pro-abortion arguments by asking fundamental questions about viability, development, and the moral consistency of viewing unborn babies as human beings deserving protection. Students struggle to define when life begins, with Kirk consistently pointing to conception as the scientifically defensible starting point of human development. The exchanges reveal the logical inconsistencies in pro-choice positions when forced to answer questions about personhood, dependency, and universal human equality.
The Fundamental Question: When Does Human Life Begin?
Charlie Kirk opens the conversation by addressing why abortion has become such a divisive political issue, pointing to the repeal of Roe v. Wade and what he describes as a decades-long dehumanization movement. When a student named Kiana challenges him on why women shouldn't have the option to choose, Kirk immediately reframes the question: do we have the choice to murder? He establishes that less than half of one percent of all abortions involve rape, incest, or the life of the mother, meaning 99.5% function as a form of birth control.
Kirk then poses the critical question that becomes central to every debate: at what point does a human being in utero become a human being? When the student suggests the second or third trimester, Kirk corrects the medical facts—heartbeats are detectable at six weeks (still the first trimester), and brain waves at ten weeks. He challenges students to explain why second trimester development marks the threshold of humanity when crucial biological markers appear much earlier.
The DNA Argument: What Makes You Human
Kirk presents one of his most compelling arguments: everything that makes a person unique—eye color, skin color, height, personality traits, and even predispositions to certain health conditions—is determined at the moment of conception when DNA is formed. He argues that if you map the human genome, you realize that the DNA doesn't start at six weeks, eight weeks, or twenty weeks—it starts at conception. Therefore, that is when a person's life truly begins, and that life deserves protection from that moment forward.
When students try to distinguish between an embryo and a baby, Kirk asks them to identify the species of a six-week-old fetus. When they acknowledge it's homo sapien, he argues that if it's human, it deserves human rights. He consistently pushes back against what he calls dehumanizing language, insisting that terms like "clump of cells," "embryo," and "fetus" are simply different stages of human development, not different categories of existence.
Bodily Autonomy and Responsibility
Multiple students raise the argument of bodily autonomy and a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. Kirk counters by distinguishing between the woman's DNA and the baby's DNA. He argues that if the pro-choice position is "my body, my choice," then it should more accurately be stated as "my DNA, my choice." Since the unborn baby has distinct DNA from the mother, Kirk contends it is a separate person and therefore the mother shouldn't have absolute choice over its existence.
When students suggest that forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies violates their autonomy, Kirk responds that eliminating a human being also violates that baby's autonomy. He challenges the notion that one person's convenience or difficult circumstances justifies ending another human life. Kirk repeatedly asks: should a mother be allowed to eliminate her two-year-old twins if she wakes up one day and decides she can't give them the life they deserve? When students say no, he argues there's no moral difference between those two-year-olds and babies at six weeks—one is simply older and bigger.
The Viability Argument Dismantled
When students argue that viability—the ability to survive outside the womb—should determine when abortion is permissible, Kirk presents a challenge. He points out that babies born prematurely at 24-26 weeks and placed in NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) cannot survive without extensive medical machinery. They cannot breathe on their own, cannot feed themselves, and require constant external support. Yet everyone agrees these NICU babies are human beings deserving of protection.
Kirk argues that a NICU essentially mimics the gestational process outside the womb using technology. If we don't consider dependence on machines as disqualifying someone from personhood, why should dependence on an umbilical cord disqualify an unborn baby? He challenges the inconsistency of using viability as a moral standard when we routinely protect non-viable premature babies with the same level of care we give any other human.
Rape, Incest, and Hard Cases
Kirk addresses one of the most emotionally challenging aspects of the abortion debate: pregnancies resulting from rape. He presents two ultrasounds and asks which one shows a baby from a loving marriage and which shows a baby conceived in rape. When students acknowledge you can't tell the difference, Kirk argues that both are equally human beings deserving of human rights. The circumstances of conception, while tragic in cases of rape, don't change the fundamental humanity of the child.
He emphasizes that he's not minimizing the trauma of rape or celebrating difficult circumstances, but insists that committing one evil act (abortion) cannot morally correct another evil act (rape). Kirk argues that we shouldn't eliminate a human being because of how that human being came into existence. The child is innocent of the crime committed against the mother.
What About the Life of the Mother?
When students raise scenarios where the mother's life is in danger, Kirk makes an important distinction. He notes that many OB/GYNs argue that abortion is never medically necessary, though he acknowledges there's debate on this point. His primary response is that if a pregnancy threatens the mother's life at 27 or 28 weeks, doctors should perform a cesarean section to deliver the baby rather than terminate it. A C-section, he argues, is safer, quicker, and saves both lives rather than just one.
Kirk distinguishes between abortion (actively terminating a living baby) and the removal of a deceased baby (which he describes as removing a carcass, a completely different medical procedure). He emphasizes that the conversation about life-threatening pregnancies almost always involves situations where the baby could be delivered via C-section rather than aborted, especially in the later stages of pregnancy.
The Holocaust Comparison
One of the most controversial moments comes when Kirk compares abortion to the Holocaust. When a student challenges this comparison, Kirk stands by it, arguing that abortion is actually worse in terms of numbers—45 million babies compared to six million Jews, making it nearly eight times worse numerically. However, he acknowledges that the Holocaust was worse in other ways: it eliminated nearly half of all living Jews and represented an intentional attempt to eradicate an entire religious people.
Kirk uses this comparison to highlight what he sees as the same dehumanization process. Just as the Nazis used language to dehumanize Jews and make their elimination acceptable, he argues that pro-abortion advocates use terms like "clump of cells" and "embryo" to dehumanize unborn babies and make their elimination acceptable. He even gets one student to admit that under their logic, sex-selective abortion (aborting a baby because it's the "wrong" gender) would be acceptable—which Kirk identifies as eugenics, the same philosophy that undergirded Nazi atrocities.
The Question of Personhood and Sentience
Some students try to argue that personhood should be based on sentience or consciousness rather than biological humanity. Kirk rejects this framework, arguing that consciousness exists on a spectrum and using it as a metric for personhood leads to dangerous territory. He points out that his ten-month-old baby is still developing and can't speak or walk yet, but no one would argue the baby has less moral worth because of limited consciousness.
Kirk insists that the only consistent, scientifically defensible position is that human development begins at conception, and therefore human rights should begin at conception. Any other line drawn—whether at heartbeat, brain waves, viability, or birth—is arbitrary and cannot be consistently defended when pressed with logical questions.
The Emotional Versus Rational Debate
Throughout the conversations, Kirk repeatedly tells students they're thinking emotionally rather than scientifically or rationally. When students say they're looking at the issue scientifically, Kirk counters that he can tell them down to the minute when human life begins (conception) while they can only give vague ranges or shifting standards. He argues that the pro-life position is rooted in biological consistency and reality, while the pro-abortion position relies on feelings, personal autonomy arguments, and dehumanizing language to justify what he considers the elimination of human beings smaller than us.
Kirk acknowledges that the pro-life position is harder to defend because it requires people to take responsibility for their actions and accept that every human being has inherent value. The pro-choice position, he suggests, is easier because it essentially says "if it feels good, do it, and if something annoying happens, eliminate it." But he insists that difficulty doesn't make the pro-life position wrong—it makes it right.
Concessions and Changed Minds
One remarkable moment occurs when a student, after being pressed on the logic of sex-selective abortion, admits "you got me on that one" and acknowledges that you shouldn't be able to kill a baby just because you don't like its gender. Kirk graciously offers the student grace for this admission and allows him to continue making his case about the Holocaust comparison, demonstrating that these conversations aren't just about "gotcha" moments but about genuinely working through difficult moral questions.
The Conservative Vision for Supporting Life
When students challenge Kirk about not caring what happens to babies after they're born, he responds with a comprehensive vision of conservative policies aimed at supporting children and families: safer streets through more police, better schools through school choice, stronger churches for ethical formation, curtailing inflation to increase purchasing power, and making it easier to adopt. Kirk argues that just because conservatives don't support more government spending on certain programs doesn't mean they don't care about children—it means they believe different policies will better serve families.
He emphasizes that there are twice as many people on adoption waiting lists as there are abortions every year, countering the narrative that unwanted children will languish in the system. Kirk firmly rejects the premise that some lives are "unwanted," arguing that it's never right to justify mass elimination of people under the claim that they're unwanted—citing this as the logic that led to the greatest horrors of the 20th century.
Video Transcript
0:01
Hi, my name is Kiana. Um, I'm not here to change your mind or anything. I'm just mostly here to ask like why do you
0:09
believe that abortion has become such a political and dividing issue in specifically the last few years?
0:16
Well, the repeal of Row versus Wade for sure is one of the reasons. And secondly, there has been a not so subtle
0:23
dehumanization movement over the last 60 years that you're allowed that makes it
0:28
acceptable to crush human beings smaller than you if you so choose. Okay. It's mostly like I believe that
0:36
the initiative of those beliefs have become more hateful towards women. And
0:42
um I'm just kind of wondering like what is the incentive with all of these points? Like why should we not have the
0:48
option to choose? Do I or do let's do do you have the choose the agency or the choice to
0:55
murder? Well, yes, there's consequences, but I do have the under the law.
1:00
No. Okay. So, therefore, that's our position. Well, not necessarily. It's more so like in the um aspects of when you know the
1:07
mother's life is in danger and you know those special circumstances like why can we not have those options in those
1:13
situations either because no one is inherently going out saying I just want to kill babies. That's not anyone's
1:18
point here. It's more so the point of you should look at a Planned Parenthood ad. I mean that's basically what they do. But so so less than half of 1% of
1:26
all abortions have to do with rape, incest or life of the mother. 99 and a half% of all abortions have to do with
1:33
just a form of birth control. It's a it's a last catch option because whatever type of birth control you were
1:38
using didn't work. Would you want someone who is not necessarily stable or ready to bring a
1:44
child into this world and provide that child the life it deserves? Would you want them to still bring that child into
1:51
this? Without a doubt. Every every life has a moral obligation to be able to live. So,
1:56
I just want to play this out. So you say it's all about the light the the choice of the mother. At what point does the
2:04
human being in uterero become a human being in your mind because it must be not human than human? When does it cross
2:10
that threshold? Um I would say more so in the second to third trimester.
2:15
Got it. So just be respectful guys. But why then? I mean what what happens in the second and third trimester
2:21
specifically that all of a sudden human being you know well it goes from a clump of cells in
2:26
the first trimester to the heart being developed in the brain and when does the heart begin
2:32
I believe in the second trimester that's 6 weeks that's the first trimester right so a heartbeat is detectable between 6 to 8 weeks that's
2:38
two months the second trimester does not start till 18 weeks brain waves are detectable at 10 weeks so tell me why
2:46
second and third trimester Because that's when the baby is more so developed is what I'm saying. Like when
2:53
in that argument you had a I'm not sure when you were shown the pictures of the fetus of a dolphin fetus and a human's
3:00
fetus. You weren't able to to tell the difference. But that doesn't mean it was not a human being though. But that's what I'm saying. It's not
3:07
developed. It's the same kind of concept. Like if it comes down to that person's life and their well-being, why
3:14
should we're talking about two different things. So life of the mother is extremely rare. It's not that rare though.
3:19
How many times do you think that there are abortions for the life of the mother out of a 1.5 million abortions every year?
3:24
How much do you think? I'm not sure with a less less than 500
3:29
out of out of 1.5 million. And by the way, a vast majority of those are babies that could have been delivered by cacaian section.
3:36
Do you know what a cescareian section is? Okay. So understand that if a baby's at 28 weeks and they say it's life of
3:42
the mother, why would you terminate the baby when you could deliver it by C-section? Well, if you can deliver it by
3:48
No, but they're not even given that option. Instead, they go to an abortionist. So then that's essentially an issue in that we should address within these
3:55
politics because no one is saying to kill kids. No one is saying to kill babies. But let's first of all there late term
4:01
abortion is very common and very frequent. It's not that common though. That's again how many times do you think it
4:06
happens a year? late term of abortions. Yeah, I don't think it happens tens of thousands of times a year.
4:12
You can't say that um when it comes to the life of a mother. But but I I I do I am curious though
4:18
just more because you said about well-being. Why should a why should any person be
4:24
able to terminate another human being if you feel as if your well-being will be
4:31
jeopardized? Why should should I be able to terminate someone in this audience if they're going to get in my well-being way? By what moral? But no, but apply a
4:38
universal moral standard to the abortion argument and help me understand it. If I were to get pregnant right now, I
4:45
would not be able to give birth to that child and give it the life it deserves. How did you get pregnant?
4:52
How did you accidents still happen guys like you can you can be on birth control? You can still This is important point, guys. But but
4:59
wait a second. But then shouldn't you take responsibility for your orgasms?
5:04
What the No. So, let me be clear that you want to have all the fun but none of the
5:10
responsibility. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying accidents still happen. No, of course. And you know what happens
5:16
when accidents involve other human beings? You don't terminate them. [Applause] [Music]
5:24
You You don't get to eliminate another human being because of an accident. That's not a moral code we live by.
5:29
Correct. But why do you not care about the um the outcome of that human being's
5:35
life? Of course I do. No, I mean but you don't because when it if I were to give birth to a kid right now and
5:42
it's living in horrible conditions because I'm just a college student, why do you not care? Why do you not put in
5:47
funding into those um establishments? Every let me everything that we believe
5:53
in is about the betterment of that kid's life. Safer streets for more more police on the streets. want to have better
5:58
schools and school choice that kid can read and learn. Stronger churches so that that kid can learn about a strong
6:03
ethical code. What if I can't afford a house for this kid? Well, but hold on. I'm going through the list of all the things that can happen.
6:09
Curtailing inflation so you can have purchasing power for that kid. The point being everything that we as conservatives believe in is making it
6:15
easier to have children in this country. And just because we don't want more government money spent on something, which actually makes it harder, does not
6:21
mean we don't want that thing. But it's also it's a red herring argument that we're talking about the morality of the
6:26
elimination of a life. Right. Right. And so I just want to be totally understanding of clear that what species
6:34
is the being when it's at six weeks to me. I believe that it's a clump of
6:40
cells. No. It's a it's a zygote. No, I know. But no, but the the species
6:45
I'm sorry. What was the species? So everything on the animal kingdom has a species type. So, we are
6:50
homo sapiens and you could be an alligator, but So, what what is it? Is it a homo? Okay, it would be a homo sapien.
6:57
So, if it's a homo sapien, it's human. So, then shouldn't it be given human rights? But it hasn't My point is it hasn't been
7:03
developed. It's still just a clump of cells, right? At the end of the day, but hold on. My baby right now is 9
7:09
months old. He's still developing. He can't speak yet. He's crawling. So, why does he have less moral worth at 9
7:15
months? He's I mean, we're all still developing here, by the way. You know that men's brains don't stop developing till they're 35,
7:21
right? So, should we just be able to say, "Well, sorry. You're 21. I couldn't get rid of you." Because it's more so if I can't give that child
7:28
the life it deserves, why am I bringing it to Got it. No, this is this will be my last
7:34
question. I I want you to think about it. If a single mom has two two-year-olds, twins, and she wakes up
7:40
one day and says, "I can't do it anymore. I can't give them the life they deserve." But that's just not the circumstance. Hold on. Should she be able to take out
7:46
a shotgun and kill both those kids? No. Of course not. Because you think that would be objectionable. That's why I think it's objectionable to eliminate
7:52
two babies that are six weeks old because they're morally the same thing. One just happens to be bigger. One just
7:59
happens to be older. One just happens to be outside of the womb. They're both human beings. And you have something in
8:05
you that says, "No way is it okay to kill a 2-year-old." That's called your soul talking. What I'm trying to do is connect reason and your soul and have
8:12
that same sort of objection. No. When you see twins on an ultrasound, I just believe you're looking at this
8:17
more emotionally than scientifically. I that again, you can believe that I
8:23
actually am looking at it incredibly reasonably because I could tell you to down to the minute when human life
8:28
begins. You kind of give me a range. Your life began not at birth but at
8:34
conception about nine months before your opinion. Well, it's actually science's opinion. You know why? This is your eye color,
8:41
your your skin color, your tastes, your wants, your desires, your interests, introvert or extroverted, whether or not
8:46
you're going to be tall or short. It all got decided in that moment. You know why? Your DNA was formed. And and with that you, what is your
8:53
marker as a human being? As we map the human genome, we realize everything about you, whether or not you have a
8:59
predisposition to heart disease, you know, whether you're going to be tall, short, you know, extra wide, skinny,
9:05
it's all in deoxyorbiboucleic acid. Correct. And the DNA does not stop start
9:10
in 6 weeks or 8 weeks or 10 weeks or 20 weeks. It starts at conception and that's when you were formed. That's when
9:16
you came into this world and you were worthy of protection. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you.
9:24
I have another question. Okay. So, how many phases are in the menstrual cycle? Do you know?
9:31
Well, I'm not a woman, so enlighten me. So, there's four stages of the menstrual cycle. Okay. ovulation, faulular, or
9:39
sorry, I'm going to go in order. Menration, faucular, ovulation, and the ludal phase. In during which of those
9:45
phases can a woman be pregnant? How when she can she get pregnant? Which of those phases? During ovulation
9:51
and ludal. Yes. So, tell you from experience. So, I know the answer to this question.
9:57
Have you ever had a menstrual cycle before? No. Okay, great. So knowing that and you
10:04
just saying I don't know the phases of the menstrual cycle which I don't blame you for for being you know you don't
10:09
have that. So then knowing this you don't know everything about the female reproductive system. How are you going
10:15
to make legislation to hurt women and women's rights?
10:20
Are men allowed to have opinions on abortion? You can have opinions on abortion but what I'm saying is how are these men
10:27
going to create this legislation? Got it. So, well, men are allowed to have opinion on moral matters, too,
10:33
right? Right. Got it. So, if I was a male OBGYn, is it okay for that person to make issues of
10:40
legislation? Well, they're educated. They understand. They are educated on the female reproductive system. So, they can't.
10:45
So, if I don't know everything intimately about the female reproductive system, sit down and shut up. You're a
10:51
man. No, that's not what I'm saying. You can have an opinion. It's all right if you have an opinion. I'm saying it's not all
10:57
right if you don't understand how the female reproductive system pop quiz. When does heartbeats begin for babies in
11:03
uterero? Have you ever eaten an egg before? Um,
11:08
that's yes or no. Have you ever eaten an egg before? Uh, scrambled. Yeah.
11:14
Okay. So, would that be you scrambled a full chicken? Hold on. Oh, you understand it takes an
11:20
egg to be fertilized, right? Uh-huh. Yeah. Uhhuh. your point, the whole point
11:26
you're making. Hold on. So, but no, since we're doing pop quiz on like human development. So,
11:32
when exactly do heart waves begin in uterero, you know that, but you don't know the force. Hold on. Tell me when. Tell me when I
11:38
don't know. Okay. You don't know? No. So, wait, hold on. So, you're trying to say I know more about the woman reproductive system than
11:44
you do. I am a woman. So, yes. Yes. Okay. Well, but the point being is we could both go back and forth of like
11:51
independent trivial facts when it comes to the woman's reproductive system, but here's something we all know because God
11:57
wrote this on the human heart of every individual. As it says in the book of Romans, we know deep down it's wrong to
12:03
murder a baby. You're not murdering a baby. It's not a baby. Okay. Well, let's let's play this out.
12:09
What is it then? It is an embryo, which is not a baby. Well Well, okay. So, it's a fertilized
12:14
embryo, correct? Which is not a baby. So, at what point does it become a baby? When it is born.
12:19
Oh, I don't agree with abortions up to
12:25
fullterm abortions. But hold on. But but you said it becomes a baby when it's born. Then why would you have abortion limits before it's
12:31
born? I thought it's just an embryo. So embryo rights. No, embryo rights aren't a thing. But then where would you draw a line for
12:37
abortion then? And why? And under what moral standard? There are medical reasons, not the
12:42
question. That's not the question. You just asked me why would I not have an abortion full term for medical reasons. Okay. So, at 29 weeks, the baby is
12:49
nearly fully developed, can recognize the mother's voice, has a heartbeat, has brain waves. Is it okay to abort that
12:55
baby? I don't like it's not okay. But you're going to say it's okay to have an
13:01
abortion then? Like, I don't understand what you're trying to say. It's not okay to have an abortion ever. How about like 3 weeks
13:07
in? Correct. No abortion. Correct. Why? Well, because your life started at conception. It did not though. It did
13:13
not. Well, hold on. So, let's play this out. So, who are you as an individual? From your skin color to your eye color to
13:20
your likes, your dislikes, from your temperament to your everything. I am not an embryo. I'm a person.
13:27
Hold on a second. But it started with something called deoxoribo nucleic acid. And your own individual
13:35
DNA started at the point of egg and sperm meeting. That's where your journey
13:41
started. And so from that point in particular, life begins. Not not at
13:46
birth, not at first words, not at first steps, but when your DNA, which is who
13:51
you actually are. Your you are your DNA. Every one of your DNA cells is coded XX
13:56
or XY. It's coded with all of your unique characteristics and attributes that God we believe God individually
14:03
curated for the rest of your life. That doesn't happen at 8 weeks or 10 weeks. It happens at conception.
14:08
What happens if you need a medical abortion? If the mother will die if she does not get an abortion, what's your stance on that?
14:13
The only the only place where medical abortion is necessary is before 20 weeks which is incredibly
14:18
she will die. What if the mother dies? Hold on a second. So let's take they for example like this is a very important
14:24
question. Let's say it's 27 weeks. Okay. And the mother will die. Why shouldn't
14:29
you could agree why don't we just have the baby delivered by cescareian section? You know what a cescareian section is, right? Yes.
14:34
What is a cescareian section? A c-section. Yeah. What why wouldn't we just put the baby up by C-section instead of terminating it?
14:40
Because if the mother will die, it's not safe to do that. You remove the baby. I understand. Threat. I know what a
14:46
C-section is. But it's actually safer than an abortion. So, every time they say, "This is for you guys." They say, "Oh, you
14:52
need to have abortion for medical reasons." Respond, "Then have a C-section." What if you're not able to have a
14:57
C-section? What if you are on your deathbed, you need to have an abortion right now again? But and it's illegal. You can't. So, you
15:03
have to die. First, first and foremost, C-section is safer. C-section is quicker. And a C-section saves both lives. A C-section
15:10
The baby is already dead. You just said, "No, but even No, no, no. Hold on a second. You're saying if the baby's already dead, then it doesn't have an
15:16
abortion, right? Then you're talking about a removal of a carcass, which is a completely different medical operation.
15:21
So you're saying that's okay. If you're having if you're rem Wait, hold on. If you're removing a carcass of a baby, that is
15:27
not an abortion by definition. The same process. No, it it it's completely different. During an abortion, they actually inject
15:34
the spinal fluid with cyanide poisoning as the baby squirms and tries to find
15:40
its mother, and it is gasping for air of life. Have you ever watched an abortion? It is one of the Yeah, actually I have
15:47
and I encourage every human being to watch one to know what you are fighting against because when you see abortion,
15:52
you will have your your life will be changed that we allow the massacre of a
15:58
million and a half babies a year under the guise of woman reproductive health. Flu season doesn't wait and neither
16:04
should you. The smart move is to prepare before anyone in your family gets sick. That's why we recommend all family
16:10
pharmacy. They let you stock up ahead of time on Tamlu, antibiotics, antivirals, ivormectin, vitamins, and more delivered
16:16
right to your door. And the best part, every order includes the doctor's prescriptions, so there's no insurance
16:22
hassles or lastminute pharmacy runs. Be proactive, not reactive. Prepare today.
16:28
Visit allfamilyfarm pharmacy.com/kirk and use code kirk10 to save 10% today.
16:38
We are allowing babies every single year to just say, you know, we're going to discard them. Why? Oh, they're smaller.
16:44
They're not humans. You're using dehumanizing language saying, "Oh, it's an embryo." No, that's a baby made in
16:50
the image of God deserving of protection. What do you do with those children once
16:56
they're born into a bad household? So, now we've transitioned to like, what do you do with the kids? Glad we're past
17:02
the other part of the argument. Okay. What do you do with them? You know, there's twice as many people on the adoption waiting list than there are
17:08
abortions every single year. That and they're still on the list. So, you want to send a child into an orphanage.
17:14
Is that what you want for a child? Is that a good life for a child? No, I'm not advocating that. In fact, I'm advocating for to make it easier to
17:21
be able to adopt. Number one. Number two, there's no such thing as an unwanted child. Number three, it is
17:27
never right to justify the mass elimination or termination of people under the guise of saying they're
17:33
unwanted. That's how we get Oshvitz. That's how we get the greatest horrors
17:38
of the 20th century. Those people are unwanted. So, you're comparing abortion to the Holocaust. Absolutely I am. In fact, it's worse.
17:45
It's worse. It's really not. I don't think it's 45 million babies.
17:51
It's nearly eight times worse than the Holocaust. What's the moral difference between a small baby in the womb and a
17:58
grown Jew who was killed at Oshvitz? What's the moral difference? One is older is a person.
18:05
What species is the baby in the womb? It's a human. But therefore, they should have human rights.
18:11
No, they should have human rights. I do not agree. Oh, so so small humans know human
18:17
rights. Grown humans human rights. It's not a small human. It's an embryo. You just said it was a human species.
18:23
It's not a living human child. Wait, it's not a what? It's not a child. It's not a living child.
18:28
It's very It has a heartbeat. It has brain waves. Make it a child. But
18:33
tell me when it becomes a child then when it I already told you when it is born again. So under every other objective
18:40
definition. You see guys how quickly the proabortion arguments fall apart with just the slightest questioning. And but
18:47
it our position is one rooted not in feelings, not in personal autonomy, but
18:52
one in biological consistency and reality that your life had an agreed upon starting point. that that starting
18:59
point should be protected and preserved. And the excuses given for abortion is dehumanization. Oh, it's just an embryo.
19:05
Guys, that's just using different language to justify the massacre of something smaller than you. That's all
19:11
that it is. So, here are the big objections. Size. It's smaller than me. Then I
19:17
should be able to to get rid of it. I'm 6'5. Should I be able to murder people smaller than me? Of course not. You don't believe that. Level of
19:23
development. Oh, it's not as progressed as This is your argument. It's not as progressed as we are. Therefore, we have
19:29
rights over it. So, my 10-month old baby, why should I not be able to eliminate my
19:36
10-month old baby? I have another question for you on the line of this. You will never be able to
19:42
have an abortion, right? You will never be able to have an abortion. You will not. Okay. It's a fact. Everyone knows that. Okay. I'm not debating that at
19:49
all. Make it quick. You You can tell the audience is Yeah. But go. Yeah. If I were to be pregnant right now and forced
19:55
to have a baby, that would ruin my life. This is an important question. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Time out. So, so rape
20:01
and incest are less than half of 1% of all abortions. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking if I just happen to be pregnant.
20:06
Oh, you don't happen to get pregnant. It's like not like getting co I know how it works. I know how it works. You don't get the flu.
20:12
I know. How about this? You take responsibility for your orgasms and stop eliminating people smaller than you.
20:18
So, you're saying I should carry a baby and ruin my collegiate life? How about this? Instead of saying ruin,
20:24
first of all, babies are a blessing. Stop talking at them as if they're some sort of annoyance. I will have to drop out of college.
20:29
Number two. Number two. If you you play certain games, you win certain prizes.
20:35
If you're going to go have sex. So, you're saying I should drop out of college to support my child and supporting my life? I'm saying if you're
20:42
going to engage in kitus in the practice of having children, you might end up
20:48
with a baby. So know that. And guess what? You don't need to have sex before you get married. It's not like showering. It's not like eating.
20:54
Are you married? Yes. With two beautiful children. Wow. Good for you. I could tell you're not married.
21:00
Yeah. Thank you for your time.
21:09
I wanted to respond to a kind of a specific comment you made. I hope you'll be open to that. I do remember I I'm sorry. I'm not sure what university you
21:15
did say this specifically at, but you did state that you believe that the Holocaust was not as bad as abortion.
21:22
So, in other words, you believe that abortion is worse than the Holocaust. Uh, so they're they're both distinct
21:28
evils with some similarities. The Holocaust in some ways was far more evil. Okay. But as far as magnitude, the
21:35
abortion crime is more evil. And I can explain more if you'd like. Okay. Sure. So I did I did do some
21:41
research. It is found that 1973 Roie Wade was ratified. Correct. And so one
21:48
thing that you did fail to mention was that specifically I numbers are just larger because abortion has been going
21:54
on for a longer amount of time. If the mass genocide right that the Holocaust was would have continued, it was about
22:01
six million killed per year. That would have progressed to 12 million. That would have progressed to 18 million. But it was ended because again it's a
22:07
totalitarian form of mass genocide. And so I wanted to ask you when you look at
22:13
the 93% of women who do get abortions, it's 58,590,000 that get abortions the first trimester.
22:20
Correct? And there is there is suggestive data that states that 12 uh
22:25
sorry 12 year weeks excuse me of gestation. Um there is significant data
22:30
that has said that pain receptors may not have yet been developed. And so that would mean that outside of the women who
22:37
received abortions first trimester, it would be 88,200 per year after the first
22:42
trimester that the babies are are likely experiencing pain. I will I will admit to that. However, I am pretty sure that
22:49
every single person in the Holocaust, which would have been 2 million per year, uh, as far as the people who could
22:56
feel pain, did did feel that pain. And so I would I would like to ask you um
23:02
actually I think I would just like to tell you I think that that 2 million actual people uh kids grown people
23:10
people who were starved work to death I think that that is more significant than the 88,200
23:16
life forms if you will because again 58,590,000 of them are probably not feeling that
23:23
but any pain. Okay. Yeah. But a a human life is a human life. Regardless of how advanced
23:29
it is or whether it can feel pain, it still has moral worth, right? But I just I like I found it interesting. You said it's worse. So I I
23:36
think So it's worse in numbers. Okay. The Holocaust was worse for two other different reasons.
23:41
Sure. Go ahead. It actually eliminated such a big portion of Jewish population that nearly
23:48
half of all living Jews were basically vaporized. And secondly, there was an intent and an
23:54
evil of trying to eradicate an entire religious people. That is not
24:00
unparalleled, but we've only seen that happen four or five times in history. But just to reiterate the point,
24:07
what? And maybe you could tell me a four-week old baby who may or may not feel pain. Let me let me take your
24:13
argument and say the four-we old baby cannot feel pain. A four-week old baby that's outside of the window in the uterine.
24:19
Understood. So what is the moral difference of that four-week old baby versus you?
24:25
Versus me? Yeah. Why? Why? Why do you matter more than that four-week old baby? Because I have uh past experience, I
24:31
also have future experiences. Uh that baby, while it has future experiences. Nope. Shut up. No, you are incorrect.
24:36
That baby does not have any past experiences. Um and therefore, I believe that yeah, I've probably affected and
24:42
impacted more people in both a positive and a negative way than that four-week old uterus has.
24:47
I'm sorry, not uterus, embryo. Yeah. So, just to make sure I'm clear that that your moral worldview
24:55
is that people gain more value the older they get. Not necessarily the older they get. I
25:00
would say that people gain more You just said you said that based on what they've done. So, like an 82y old
25:05
has more moral value than an 8-year-old. In fact, usually though, just to interrupt, the West actually was built on the opposite idea that we sacrificed
25:12
the old for the young, but during co we sacrificed the young for the old and we actually inverted it. It used to
25:18
be that the grandparents would fall on the sword so that kids could live longer lives. So I'm just trying to understand like
25:24
and from where do you get that moral worldview? Why why do you believe that? Well, I wouldn't even say that. What I'm
25:30
arguing is that it's it's based off of how many people you know. What I'm saying is realistically if you are
25:36
walking around Hold on. If you are walking around right and you have a four-week old uterus, I'm so sorry I
25:42
keep saying uterus. I mean embryo can or embryo. Okay. uh in your stomach and
25:47
then you have uh let's just take a uh four-year-old kid. All right. Um there
25:53
are number one, there are more people who most likely know that four-year-old
25:58
kid. That four-year-old kid has the ability to understand fear, the fact that its life is in danger. And so
26:04
therefore, there is probably there's probably more reason, right, to not ter uh terminate the life of that
26:10
four-year-old rather than the life of the four-week old. So there there there's so much wrong
26:15
with that argument. So under that belief system, sure
26:21
if if by government decree they said let's eliminate the down syndrome kids. Uh do down syndrome people still have
26:27
the ability to feel pain, recognize fear, recognize sadness. But but it's yeah it's highly diminished but just this is not a hypothetical
26:33
actually. Okay. It's actually you must get an abortion in Iceland if you have a down syndrome baby. You must.
26:38
Yeah. That's that's really terrible. Okay. We agree. Yeah. Right. But why is it terrible? the abortion, it doesn't
26:43
matter that much, right? It's just like a it's like a clump of cells. Like, why not? If if it is going to directly impact either the mother's life or the baby's
26:49
life, then yes, I do think that abortion is an important issue. I don't think the government should ever be able to come in and say, "Hey, you're required to
26:54
have an abortion." In fact, the whole slogan for the pro-choice movement is your body, your choice. And I know you're going to disagree with that, but that is the whole point. So, what it's
27:00
saying is it's not left up to the government to decide if they should or shouldn't get an abortion in Iceland. Yeah, that's a problem because it's
27:05
entirely left up to the government. That's an issue. Let me take it to another extreme if that's okay. Sure. because this is full freedom,
27:12
right? So, you're saying, "Hey, my body, my choice." I'm I'm actually saying uh for the first trimester after that.
27:17
Fair enough. Let's just say this is a different moral argument that I'm interested to have you play around with. Okay.
27:22
Should it be legal if a mom finds out she's having a girl?
27:28
Okay. But she wants a boy. Should she be able to abort that three-week old? Yes.
27:38
Are you kidding? Think about it. Think about what you just said.
27:44
Think about what you just said. Why? Can that child directly survive outside
27:52
her body? Well, eventually. Yes. I mean, again, so
27:57
we talk about stages of development. What is the first step of human development? I mean obviously it's
28:04
whenever the two pieces of DNA they the egg and the sperm meet and they collaborate.
28:09
So therefore if human development begins at fertilization conception sure so then shouldn't the human be protected
28:16
at conception? Well I don't even think it's going to be protected if if the baby is going to be born to a mother who's like well dang it
28:23
my kid's uh not a girl it's a boy or vice versa then I don't even think they should be born to that parent in the
28:29
first place. So but just just to But so what you are arguing for is eugenics.
28:35
Just so we are clear. It is it is not just illegal. It is like it is grotesqually illegal what you are
28:42
talking about which is sex selective abortion. Basically where you get a DNA result at 3 weeks
28:47
and you can be like no not the hair color I like terminated. Not I wanted a boy. So basically your view of pregnancy
28:55
is no different than customizing a Ford Explorer. [Applause]
29:01
No, my my whole point again No, no, no, no. You got to emphasize on it. Your view is that the the baby if
29:08
all of a sudden you get a blood test that you don't like that it's by the way, you could tell a lot of your baby's DNA test now. How tall it's going to be,
29:15
it's average IQ, brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes, whether it's going to be likely be overweight, obese, whether or
29:21
not it's going to be a boy or a girl. So, if you get anything that you don't like, you say, "My body, my choice, get
29:27
it out of the shopping cart." Well, yeah. And to be honest, it's it is probably it's very ethically problematic. Yeah. But if we are have if
29:34
we have advanced to a society where that can happen. Number one, we're already in
29:39
pretty big trouble if we can if we can literally say, "Okay, the baby's going to have blue eyes, green eyes." No, no, no. It's not We're already there. We're there. It's just so you
29:46
understand, it's already I mean, you can like Yeah, you can look at a punit table, but it's not actually going to be actually defined. No, no, it's very defined. You could get
29:51
a three-week old blood test and you could tell right around 3 to six weeks almost everything with a very very high
29:57
predictive correlation of how your kid is going to operate grow. Now of course there are some issues with it but the
30:03
sex is highly highly accurate. It's 90 it's the you take the women the urine of the mom within 48 hours you could tell.
30:10
So what I I just I want to make sure we're clear. You came here asking about the Holocaust. I'm going to complete the
30:16
full circle. What you just talked about sex selective abortion is Nazi eugenics
30:22
philosophy, which is that we will eliminate those that we don't want. Interesting. You're you're exactly
30:28
right. Uh you did get me on that one. Um yeah, cuz
30:36
yeah, I'm I'm not going to like sit up here and pretend that that you got me on that one. Uh no, realistically, like if we're really going to full circle and
30:42
I'm going to sit here and think about it, no, you shouldn't be able to kill your baby. just because you don't like the agenda or whatever and listen and I
30:48
apologize for taking it to that extent. I No, it's not your extent. I want I want to offer you grace. Thank you for saying that and I appreciate that.
30:54
Okay. Um but I just I want to say as far as uh like if we are if we are balancing the
31:00
numbers I think that the amount of lives that were terminated are I think they are more significant uh as far as the
31:06
Holocaust because every single person did absolutely have the ability to feel pain than they were whenever it was the 58 million.
31:12
Fair enough. So here's our view and we'll close with this. Absolutely. is that if there is a three-year-old in the audience
31:17
that has very few friends and might be in, you know, living on some homestead or a 30-year-old that's very connected
31:23
and very wealthy in the moral worldview economy that we have, no moral difference.
31:28
If there's because they're they're like directly living like outside of their mother's womb. Whereas if you have Let me go let me go a step further. If
31:35
there is a 3-week old in utero, I mean, it's still leeching off of the mother's resources. So, I'm not sure entirely how much of its own being it
31:41
is. Well, again, so you leech for the first three years of life. I have a 10-month-old. He doesn't hunt and
31:47
gather. He doesn't he doesn't go work. He's not he's not directly attached to your I assume to your wife's to your
31:53
wife's body. In order for his survival, he has to be directly attached to something. Somebody has to give the baby breast milk formula
32:00
or Okay. Formula. Yeah. But can it or something? Okay. So, here's here is your wife. Here is the baby. Can the baby just be apart
32:08
from your wife and and exist at at 22 weeks? Yes. So for 22 weeks
32:13
there is an umb there is an umbilical cord. So what you say leech I say give
32:19
the the mom gives life to the the the baby I'm not arguing
32:24
outside of first and what we say and not even a religious standpoint because the religious is easy. Just from a moral
32:30
standpoint, we were all given life by a mom who gave us nutrients through an umbilical cord and we should give that
32:37
back. That is just the moral cycle of life, right? Which is that that which is given that which is much expected.
32:44
And so again, human development irrefutably this even a proabort will
32:49
say this. Human development has a starting point. It does. It absolutely does. Yes, we agree. And it's conception.
32:55
And we can use all these different words. We can use fetus. We can use embryo. We can use little one, whatever. Sure.
33:00
But it's all still a human being. It doesn't go from rhinoceros to human being at like 10 weeks. It doesn't go
33:05
from crocodile to human being. It's all human development. Therefore, using reason that we all have, if it's human
33:12
development, and it is a human being, human rights. The first of all human rights is the protection of life.
33:18
Interesting. But okay. So, do you agree that like uh let's say you go into a doctor's office, you have a 10-year-old
33:24
and then you have a 22-y old. the 22-year-old is going to be allowed to submit to more testing as long uh
33:30
without parental consent than that uh 10-year-old or whoever I said was. So, I don't know. I think honestly it's again
33:37
and I I don't know like I I you have a lot of thinking to do about this and that's okay because here's and this is not your fault. The pro-abortion
33:44
worldview will collapse if you remove feelings and you remove hyper emotionality. There is no defense using
33:51
agreed upon western reason which you believe in in western morality which is we don't kill people smaller than us. We
33:57
do not eradicate those that are you know just because they don't have as much money or as much worth. We believe in
34:03
universal human equality which of course you believe in right universal human equality is like the overarching big
34:08
western ideal which and it by the way it's in our declaration of independence. All men are created equal. If you
34:13
believe in universal human equality there is no room for abortion in that society. It does not exist. Well, I
34:19
mean, okay, we we can No, I'm just saying it's fine. You have a lot to think about with that. I mean, I think you do, too. But okay,
34:25
I'm happy to. No, it's fine. I mean, I've thought about this my whole life, so yeah. Listen, I appreciate you, Charlie.
34:31
Again, I want to apologize about what I said earlier about that. When we cut the video, we'll we'll we'll put your your second answer as well as
34:38
your first one. We'll be fair to that. Okay. Thank you very much. I'm sure you will. No, I will. I'll just be honest. Thank you.
34:45
Um, hello. My name is Anthony. I'm going to pivot towards the abortion issue. Uh
34:50
I've never debated that before. Yeah, I don't think you have either. Um one thing I want to like make clear is
34:56
obviously like there's people in the crowd. Obviously I don't have the same worldview as people in the crowd, but I'm not here to like um to negatively
35:03
like talk. I'm not going to talk down to people who have different beliefs. I think that's not something that our country would be founded on. I think
35:08
like you know respectful disagreement. Um but in terms of abortion, the one thing um shout out Dean Withers, I
35:14
guess, but the one thing that caught my eye was um the are women are women with IUDs murderous debate. Um so can you
35:21
just like uh give like a refresh and just like explain if you think women with IUDs are or not murderers because I
35:26
I actually debated this with Dean. No, I mean it prevents conception. Yes, but it's no different than a condom or
35:33
different than birth control. But his argument was that and I'm I'm almost 100% agreed with this is that um like
35:40
when when consumption happens like a unique human life is created when an IUD prevents like unique human life
35:46
it prevents the attachment to the uterine wall. Yes. But when it's already a zygote which is you would consider a unique
35:51
human life. Yes. Uh correct. Yes. So then you're saying effectively that the IUD is by your definition if you
35:58
believe that's not the way an IUD works. I don't want to spend too much time on this but it it pre it prevents fertilization.
36:04
Yes. Okay. So, uh, turning off of that in terms of like, um, a conservative worldview, I want to talk about how like
36:11
specifically when you think of like the over like like Roie V being overturned, like the right to privacy, that kind of
36:16
stuff when that's like a precedent that's been used for other cases. things like gay marriage like oversold versus sahajes if I'm remembering correctly.
36:22
things like the the right for like gay marriage specifically I think is a dangerous it's a slippery slope because
36:27
when you overturn aaa a case that relies on that right that that right for privacy you start you can start
36:33
unraveling things that I mean I would consider marrying whoever you want to regardless of like your political
36:39
affiliation whether you believe in gay marriage or not that should be that's included in your amendments that should like the right to do what you want like
36:46
isn't the conservative party all about freedom of like choice like in at like a baseline view there's a lot there we
36:52
believe in liberty not licensed. So, we believe you should be able to do things that elevate humanity and elevate your society, not license. For example, we
36:59
don't believe you should be able to marry a 12-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. Logically, but that's freedom, isn't it? No, it's not. That's license. So, you must have
37:05
the distinction, the philosophical maturity to know liberty versus lentiousness. Okay. Does that does that make sense?
37:11
Yes. Um, and then one thing I want to turn cuz um, is like so if you were to ask the entirety of America, if you're
37:17
American woman specifically cuz they get abortions, if you were to ask every American woman, you know, in including states with like with abortion access
37:23
like Illinois or like something like a southern state which doesn't have it, um, would you say that they have more
37:29
rights and more freedom of choice like bodily autonomy than they did be like before?
37:35
States that outlaw abortion of course have more rights. You know why? Because women that are in the womb aren't being
37:41
murdered and they have the right to life. I Yeah, that's that's where that's where your view would come in. And that's just No, hold on. Let's think about this. Is
37:47
life a right? Do you have a right to life once you exist? Yes. But then the argument is life
37:53
begin. Well, no. So then answer me the question. I mean, you know, when my I believe life begins at not just what I believe, what science reflects human
37:59
development starts at conception. We can agree with that. Human human development. Sure. Yeah. Okay. No. So, but then but if it's human
38:06
development, then it's human life. It's you have to find another word other than life. Tell me what word besides life you would
38:12
use to describe like conceptions. They're like conception when it's fetus whatever.
38:17
What what word other than alive? Because it's not dead cuz you could agree it's not dead because it has a heartbeat and
38:23
DNA and the cells are forming and they're splitting. So if it's not alive and it's not dead, what word would you
38:28
use? I would I wouldn't necessarily call it alive. I wouldn't necessarily call it dead. I think there's a distinction. I
38:33
wouldn't label it with one word just because it's like I don't have the But let's think about this more deeply because I could tell you're smart. We
38:39
actually always exist on the binary of alive or dead. Yeah. I mean, so then you have to choose. It's either
38:44
dead or alive. There isn't a third option. If you want to create one, you can go to the science department here and argue that. But what is the third
38:50
option other than alive and dead? I would say I don't know what he said. I don't know, but it's okay.
38:56
I would say vi one thing I want to talk is viability. I know I'm kind of dodging it, but like No, no, I know you are dodging it because I I just And I'm not trying to
39:02
pinpoint you. Just to close the thought then we go to viability. Abortionists cannot answer this question
39:07
ever because there is not a third option. Yeah, you are either alive or dead. It is a binary of existence. Right now you could
39:14
be you could be supportive when you are alive meaning you might need to have medicine or you might need to have a ventilator but you are still alive by
39:20
all objective measurements or you are dead. We we have a clinical definition in the hospital when someone is dead. We
39:27
have an agreed upon clinical definition. We also have a we do not have a clinical agreed upon definition of when something
39:33
is alive. So when a human being is going on the process of human development in uterero, it technically of course is
39:39
alive and therefore it's a human life. But we use all this different kind of trappings and language to try to dehumanize the being.
39:46
Let's put that aside. So think about that in the next days and weeks cuz maybe it might convince you. Yeah. Uh viability. So like in terms of
39:52
viability like um I believe it's what 24 around 24 26 weeks where it's considered it can be born prematurely in
39:58
yeah it's I mean at 20 or 21 weeks a miraculous niku baby can be born but I will grant you before that it's almost
40:04
yes 24 weeks about a baby can survive a niku but let's take that example so if
40:10
viability was the moral standard if a baby is born around 24 or 25 weeks they have to go to a niku do you know what a
40:16
niku is okay if you don't it's a neonatal intensive care unit basically where very very small human
40:22
beings, small baby babies go and they have all sorts of machines that have to support them because they don't have
40:28
they have not gone through the entire process of gestation. Basically, they were cut 15 weeks early. They're not
40:33
viable. Are they alive? You're saying they're not viable? I mean, they they can't survive without machines.
40:39
They can't survive without machines. So, are they alive? I would say yeah, I guess they're alive. Well, then how is it any different than
40:45
a 16week old that requires an umbilical cord? Because that is because okay we're
40:50
talking about viability. We're talking about the definition of viability to my knowledge is being able to exist outside the womb.
40:55
It cannot exist without machines. But it's existing outside the womb, right? But it cannot exist without some other external supporting device. It
41:02
cannot breathe on its own. It cannot clear its bladder. It's in a niku. It has and if you ever seen the image, I encourage you to look at it online. A
41:08
niku. You'll see a baby that's literally the size of the Sharpie pen that has like 15 different contraptions. I bet
41:13
there's a niku baby in this audience. By the way, I'd like Yeah, someone's raising their hand right there. Praise God. someone that's, you know, born
41:19
premature in the hands. It's amazing, but it does beg the question, they were not technically viable under the
41:25
proabortion definition because they could not survive without external support. So, an external support could
41:31
be an umbilical cord or it could be a baby ventilator. Yeah. I wouldn't say I necessarily agree with like specifically like that
41:38
definition like external support. Then that's fine. Give me give me a definition of viability and I'll hold you to that standard.
41:43
We'll just Okay. So I guess the vi the viability I was talking about I guess I still will talk about is like external
41:48
like needs to survive outside the womb. Maybe not necessarily on its own because like obviously none of us like you can't even provide for yourself if you're an
41:53
infant too like under five but like I would say that in terms of like viability like something um like
42:00
existing outside the womb. Yeah. You just talked about niku babies whatever not whatever but no it's fine. No, but the NICU baby
42:06
essentially is mimicking the gestational process outside of the womb, if that makes sense. Because the a
42:12
27-week old baby would not be able to likely survive if it wasn't for all these contraptions or machines. So, what
42:18
we've done is we've created with technology basically a counterfeit, a pretty good one, of the gestational
42:24
process that they otherwise would be getting in uterero. Yeah. But they're still alive. When a NICU baby is born at
42:30
26 weeks, they get a birth certificate, they get a social security number, but they have a bunch of machines and
42:35
they're not able to breathe on their own. Yeah. But you would both we would both agree that's a human being. Yeah.
42:40
Why? I think honestly I think it's um I would say it's easier for me to sit up here.
42:47
Obviously I'm not I'm not a woman. I'm not pregnant. I'm not a mother. But I think it's it at some point it's easy for me to sit here and be like
42:53
proabortion versus like if I was a mother I think I would have some sort of like obviously it's a hard choice to
42:58
make like I wouldn't whatever but then you also have the like the issue of like access to healthcare with like if you view abortion as access
43:04
now we're slipping into a separate argument which is fine which is degree of dependency we're running the whole gauntlet and I'm happy to do all of it
43:09
right so I think we have viability you know we've we've come to we've thoroughly you know you
43:15
know went through that those fields but now we go to degree of dependency You say it is a tough decision to make.
43:22
I will push back a little bit. When women are properly educated that this is murder, I don't think it's actually a
43:28
difficult decision to make. You have to then consider it something. You can consider it termination, elimination,
43:34
but based on just very basic reason, human development, human life, you know, the unjust taking of a human life is
43:40
necessarily murder. And so, but then let me just, you know, final complete the point. Is it ever right to take a life
43:48
if you don't have the money to support that life? Um, specifically money? No.
43:57
Because you said healthcare or access to that. Set said differently. If a mother had a 2-year-old baby and she lost her
44:03
job and she goes into bankruptcy and she's in poverty, are you allowed to eliminate or terminate your 2-year-old
44:09
baby because it might help you save money? No. And I understand what the point you're getting at. It's like, oh, it's a
44:14
2-year-old. I I understand that point you're looking at a 2-year-old is the same thing as something
44:20
it is morally indistinguishable than a two week old in utero. In your opinion, yes. But I know. But you have to tell me why
44:26
it's different. Because I Yeah, I I see what you're saying. No, tell me tell me what's different than a 2-year-old versus a two week old
44:32
in utero. What's the difference other than one is older? Because one isn't
44:37
necessarily I know I didn't define like an actual like definition of like when life begins whatever but that's always
44:42
going to be contested for you know it's always going to be like this is all well it's contested for now we believe biological truth will win because human
44:50
development does have a starting point and we believe that once ethics can align with science and biology then
44:55
human life will act we will have an agreed upon idea of that's when life actually Yeah I see what you're saying and then
45:01
in terms of like biological evidence obviously well because because just so sorry to interrupt that we have reconsidered so
45:07
many scientific norms over the last hundred years. For example, when the small pox epidemic happened, we used to
45:12
give people arsenic because we thought having diarrhea would make it easier for you to get small pox out of your system.
45:19
We revisited that and we were like, that was insane. We used to have blood in the 1700s where we would if you were sick,
45:25
you would try to get as much blood out of your system as possible. We also then discovered antibiotics and we discovered
45:31
germ theory. The same goes with abortion. the more we actually learn about the process of human development, the more ultrasound technology, the more
45:38
that we actually come to the conclusion that it is a human life. And finally, let me just ask one one other question that you want to get to
45:44
somebody else. Would you agree that what makes you fundamentally unique than the person next to you is your DNA?
45:52
We good? Okay. Um, let me just Okay. Would you agree that the what makes you fundamentally
45:59
unique versus the person next to you who's the bodybuilder uh is uh DNA? I
46:04
mean like from like like you're saying a biological standpoint yes the things that make me unique from him is like at
46:10
a struct like a like a molecular level like yeah DNA but I would also argue that things like like I'm more I'm
46:17
different than him not just because of my DNA obviously but right but at to distill it down to its biological truth DNA like you're you
46:25
should have autonomy over your own DNA DNA would you agree over your own DNA? I wouldn't go that
46:33
far. Well, I mean, what what is the abortion argument? My body my choice. Yes. Otherwise said my DNA my choice.
46:39
I wouldn't if it like when DNA I see where you're getting at, but then therefore if it's not your DNA,
46:47
why should it be your choice? Choice. Yeah, I see where you're getting at. Um I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't Tell me why.
46:52
Because um it could just be me being like pro-choice like whatever like as I
46:58
consider access healthcare. Think about it outside of your ideological Yes. worldview. Just think about it. Just say just think of it as a
47:04
freethinker. Why do you disagree with it? I disagree because I would say that a
47:10
woman's right that that is almost a part of her body is
47:16
well it's attached to her body but it's not her DNA. But I for example your mom cannot vote
47:21
for you. Your mom is a different distinct person than you, right? Mhm.
47:28
I would say that in terms of like DNA like I cons since I consider it um it's
47:34
the mother's like not job or duty but like that is that I consider it a part of them. You might say it's attached to
47:40
them but like I'd say like I'd say you ask your mother you'd say like when she was pregnant with you she felt like you
47:46
were an extension of herself. I'm not going to speak for her but I feel like it's much harder than making like distinct things. And I obviously I can
47:51
sit here and debate but I'm not I don't have enough educated but I I want you to think about this in the coming days, weeks, and months because that's what
47:58
this is all about. I'm not here to just got you. I could tell you're looking at this correctly. We as prolifers have a hard job.
48:03
Our job is to tell millions of people to take responsibility for their actions. Our job is to say that every human being
48:09
is inherently valuable because it's a human being. Yes. And that is a harder argument. Your
48:15
argument is actually way easier, which is if it feels good, do it. And if something annoying happens, eliminate
48:22
it. We think you should not be able to eliminate another human being just because it might make your life mildly
48:28
inconvenient. Yeah. So, we just have a difference. Yeah. Our job is harder, but we believe we're
48:34
right. You think you are right, and I hope we'll win one day. Thank you very much for your time. Can I get a hat? Yeah, sure. I could tell you're a big
48:39
MAGA guy. So, yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
48:45
Thank you, man. So, I would like to ask you about um for
48:50
abortions, right? How do we explain to those who are
48:56
are for it? How do we explain that? Um, even I don't know if you believe this or
49:02
not, but in terms of like a rape or unintentional or really unconented
49:09
pregnancies, do can we say that we should still be anti-abortion in that scenario?
49:16
Yes. Uh, what's your grounds for that? and how would I explain it to someone else?
49:22
Sure, it's a good question. Uh, let's say I have two ultrasounds here. One is an ultrasound of a baby from a
49:28
loving marriage. The other one is a baby conceived in rape. Which one is which?
49:33
We can't exactly tell. So, they're both human beings, right? They both deserve human rights.
49:38
Okay. But then what is if someone pushes back against with the idea?
49:43
Do I? Oh. uh what happens if someone pushes back with the idea that now in terms of
49:50
the mother right one of them was willingly conceived while the other one is was a force cons
49:55
yeah I mean that that's a fair argument the question then should be when if ever in your moral universe is it okay to do
50:03
something evil after an evil act to try to make that evil act correct
50:08
but how about for in terms of what is if we're in the position of the mother and she is I don't want to take the risk of
50:16
illness, death, or whatever to have this child. Sure. So, it's a little bit of a false choice because they're acting as if the
50:22
termination of the pregnancy will have no consequences or costs. A lot of women that get abortions have regret. Women
50:28
die when they get abortions. They have a lot of their health issues. It's not just like getting a haircut. So, it's a little bit of a false choice, but we
50:34
come after it from a very basic moral argument. There are two lives involved. There's a little life and a grown life.
50:40
And no one has the right to eliminate a human life in uterero. Period.
50:47
So Ben at that point now we're forcing someone to do something that they never
50:52
consented to, never wanted to do. How isn't this violating their human
50:58
autonomy? Well, again, but eliminating the human being would also violate the baby's
51:05
autonomy, too, wouldn't it? Well, then we would have to ask, right?
51:10
Maybe in future years we will have the technology to be able to extract a fetus
51:16
and grow a fetus outside of the uterus. But given our state of medicine right
51:21
now, we do not have that. Sure. I mean, but again, no one is delighting or rejoicing in these
51:26
circumstances. I mean, it's a terrible situation. I want to reiterate that. But you have a you have a unspeakably
51:33
difficult choice that is very morally, you know, clear though, which is that you don't eliminate a human being
51:39
because an awful action happened. Are you saying that as someone who can
51:44
get Well, I guess my push back against that would be then if we say that it's
51:53
entirely wrong, right? We are I guess we're sacrificing
51:58
someone's choice for someone's life which is admirable but it's also morally correct. You you you
52:05
don't get you don't get to murder someone smaller than you if it makes your life difficult. But then we can't exactly see the you
52:13
the fetus does not have autonomy. It cannot exist outside the uterus. Doesn't matter. Human dignity does not
52:19
ex does not correlate with dependency. So dignity and dependency are not two things corrected. You have human dignity
52:25
because you're a human being, not because how dependent you are. So would you say that viability happens
52:30
when viability is irrelevant? So then at what point does human life begin then?
52:35
Conception. Conception. Not even sperm or eggs. Okay. That's conception. That's I just wanted to get
52:41
when an egg is fertilized human life begins. Okay. So then when it's still a single
52:46
cell with both chromosomes pairings, right? Well, it creates new DNA, right? So once
52:52
the sperm and egg meet literally something magical and inexplicable happens where new DNA is formed.
52:58
Okay. And then what happens? So then then it attaches to the uterine wall and I can go through the whole gestational
53:04
process. All right. So then we have the basis of human life. Now what is if within the
53:10
uterus now that life is still alive but is unable to proceed to like let's say
53:17
actual birth due to some medical situation that has happened. Well, has has the baby died without outside
53:24
intervention or with outside intervention? Is it an ectopic pregnancy or what what you got to be very clear about the type
53:30
of uh the amniotics act has an ectopic pregnancy, right? So, yeah, you can remove the baby from that situation
53:36
without aborting it. The baby will die outside of the womb, but you do not have to abort it. So, those are two different
53:41
things. The removal of a baby is what's called the cescareian section. You can do that very early on. Now, ectopic
53:46
pregnancy is very real. It's very terrible. But you can you can solve an ectopic pregnancy outside of having an abortion.
53:52
But okay. So then what creates an abortion? Is it the heartbeat? The removal of the fetus? What exactly?
53:58
Well, so I don't again I don't want to go too deep in this. Do you know what happens in an abortion? I mean, maybe you don't. They literally will break the
54:03
back of the baby's skull, right? They will insert to the back a syringe of cyanide poisoning until the baby no
54:10
longer I mean, this is one of the most gruesome things. Everyone who's pro-choice, in my opinion, has a moral obligation to watch a video of an
54:16
abortion just to know kind of what you're supporting. It's so beyond inexplicable. But yeah, look, I really
54:21
quick, what's the final question on this because I want to keep keep moving. Oh, sure. So, um, you didn't really
54:26
finish the question of when can we do that procedure, right? If there's still
54:31
a heartbeat, I I don't I don't think we should ever do that procedure. What happens if like now the mother's life is going to die in like 15 minutes,
54:38
but the baby is still having a heartbeat? It depends on again I I don't want to speak to every specific. Some OB/GYN say
54:45
abortion is never medically necessary. I'm not a professional enough to say that. But it depends how far advanced the woman is. If she's past 22 weeks,
54:52
have a cescareian section. Try to have the baby live in NICU. So there are situations where abortions
54:58
are okay, right? Well, no. I'm not even saying okay. Again, I don't know enough some OBGYNS that they can defend their statement
55:04
here. They will say abortion is never medically necessary. I'll allow them to defend that. I don't know enough about the details there to be able to say
55:10
that. So you're saying that you do not have a statement of whether abortions can never be true or always. I
55:16
it is murder. Whether or not an OBGYn can prove to me of which there's a lot of debate, it is ever medically
55:22
necessary. So take for example, if a baby is 26 weeks and the baby's, you know, some the mom's
55:28
life is in danger, deliver the baby by C-section. Don't terminate the baby. Does that make sense?
55:34
Yes, I see. The baby can survive outside of the womb. Okay, at that point. Yeah. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
55:41
All right. How How are we doing, Mr. Kirk? Yeah. Hi. Um, this is uh, you know, I'm not going to sit here and act like, uh,
55:46
I'm going to be like a debate king here. You know, you have 10 years of experience on me and um, uh, I I had a
55:53
quick question though about, uh, on abortion if that's okay with you. Right. Um, so I think when we talk about
55:59
abortion, I think we really get into this um, idea of like when we should assign personhood, right? So um uh you
56:07
clearly believe that life begins at conception and I think it would be better if we shift the uh if we shift that metric to a more based on sentience
56:15
and I believe that like um and the question I have for you is that like since you believe that life begins at at
56:20
birth. Let's say we have a person that's grown to old age and they have died and they have um they have absolutely
56:25
showing no brain activity at all. Um would you believe that like you know shooting that person uh that dead person
56:32
is the equivalent of like a human life? Yeah, I mean it is a human life, but those are two totally separate things.
56:37
One, one is no more and the other one's not yet, right? So, so not yet is different than no more. If someone's at the end of their
56:43
life and there's nothing more we can do to continue their life, that is a different moral conversation than someone that has not yet been completely
56:48
grown as a human, as you two different moral circumstances. So, you can't conflate the two, right? Um, but I think they both have
56:54
the same problem where like uh that uh it's it's about the presence of consciousness, right? Then
57:00
no, it's not a problem. One consciousness will come, one will the one will not. That's so they're two separate thing
Related Books
Browse Conservative Books
