Charlie Kirk Debates Criminal Justice Reform, Electoral College, and Kanye West at Politicon Panel

hello poletik on how are you feeling today alright so this is the perfect venue to have a panel discussion on how the eff are we going to get along in this country and starting here at politican so we've got a great roster of panelists today I want you to give a big political and welcome to all of our panels to spring them out stop it you're gonna make me blush come on yeah are you doing thanks for having me thanks buddy oh I didn't need to yell back all right so some quick introductions here first of all to my far right we have Kyle kolinsky he is the co-founder we brought a few friends Kyle's the co-founder of Justice Democrats and host of secular talk on The Young Turks Network to his the Left we have Bakari sellers who is a former state representative in South Carolina now a CNN contributor to his left we have the roaming millennial aka Lauren Chen and she is the host of roaming millennial uncensored on YouTube and then to my left we have Michael Noel's host hosts of the Michael metals show on The Daily wire and to his left we have charlie kirk founder of turning point USA so just to frame this discussion for a second year we obviously live in very polarized times today our political rhetoric is as divisive as it's been probably in our lifetimes and just to put a finer point on the level polarization today studies have shown that the levels of partisanship partisan polarization in Congress are at the widest they've been since the end of Reconstruction and you only have to look to the headlines in this country to see just how divided this country is and I think in my view that partisanship has really metastasized into tribalism today so I hope with the panel we can talk about you know how we do bridge the political divide in a media environment where it's very difficult to do it and I think all of our panelists here are on the cutting edge of new media and so it's really going to be on the folks here to figure out how we can create a more constructive political dialogue and so I actually want to start with Bakari because you have transitioned from a governance role having served in the state legislature of South Carolina you're the nominee for lieutenant governor in was a 2014 2014 and so you are in the business of trying to form legislation and work with both Democrats and Republicans in the legislature and then you transition to a commentating role at CNN and a number of other platforms so tell us more about that transition that process and the change in incentives that you found in terms of the type of political dialogue that would get attention and that would work well first thank you for the question thank you all for being here I was very young when I ran for office and so I know we have some people in here on the left and the far left I know we have some people in here on the right and the far right but I firmly believe that we're not the generation of tomorrow with a generation of now and so I encourage everyone here when I was 21 years old I announced my race for office I ran against somebody who was 82 years old and had been in office for 26 years and on June 13 2006 I became the youngest black elected official in the United States and the youngest state legislator but the reason the reason that I was able to do that is because regardless of how someone looked regardless of where someone came from whether their zip code I always gave people the benefit of their humanity and I think if we start there if we meet people where they are then we can find initiatives that all of us can agree on to have Charlie to my left and to have my good friend from The Young Turks to the to my right I can honestly say that if we were to put forth an idea like making sure that we take redistricting which is the reason that we're so polarized today out of the hands of elected officials and made them independent independent commissions statewide then I can actually get these two to agree on that and push it in state legislatures around the country so but but it takes those type of bold steps it takes people not getting caught up in petty differences and it also takes people understanding the practical reality of where we are in this country I tell people we've made a lot of progress but we still have yet a ways to go yeah well just to pick up on that issue of gerrymandering and the importance of our generation a lot of people don't realize this but in the state of Ohio this year I run a non partisan organization called the Millennial Action project we work with young elected officials across the aisle and it was the young lawmakers in Ohio who pushed a bipartisan plan to put in place redistricting reform in Ohio to get rid of partisan gerrymandering and it passed with wide bipartisan support the voters approved it would seventy-five percent of the vote and I think that just underscores the opportunity our generation has to transcend some of the old divides that have been holding our country back and since you called out Charlie on a move over to Charlie here you've been working on college campuses across the country what's the sense that you're picking up from college students today in terms of the type of rhetoric that they're looking for when I go to college campuses for example I hear so many young people who say I'm so tired of the partisanship I'm so tired of all the gridlock and I'm curious of you hear a similar thing and how folks and turning points are responding yeah III agree at that I think the good news politically about our generation is I think we agree generally on the problems we have a lot of different perspectives on how we would go about solving them the broad-based consensus amongst college students and Millennials is that we have a government that does not represent our generation that is run by trial lawyers lobbyists well-connected people around a 90-mile proximity of Washington DC our argument as conservative libertarians is well if that government has been bought and is corrupt why on earth would you want to make that government bigger stronger and send more your money for that very same government and that's obviously where my progressive friends would disagree so the the broad-based question here over the last 30 or 40 years is why has the wealth power money and influence concentrated around our nation's capital what do they create well they create nothing they create access to power I mean the wealthiest counties in America used to be around Detroit Michigan and Chicago Illinois and Philadelphia Pennsylvania now 8 out of the 10 wealthiest counties in America around Washington DC where you're literally rewarded or how close you are to the power center and for us to get away from that I think there's there are some solutions that I would actually tend to agree with whether it be fair and fair map so on and so forth but I think our generation is looking for a series of policies and ideas that will I think address in a not necessarily I hate that term bipartisan because it almost lends itself to that both Republicans and Democrats are the answer I would say pote in some way it's bigger than partisan issues in some ways and I look if you follow my what I closely I think that until the Republican Party's honest with ourselves with the failures of our own party over the last 3040 years such as George W Bush was a big spending liberal that betrayed all of our principles time and time again we're not going to be able to actually appropriate you know solutions that will increase freedom and shrink government and put the same government that's bought by these corrupt lobbyists and insiders back to the people yeah that's a great point and Charlie on it now go over to Kyle here because you made the point about this widening gap between you know Washington DC and the rest of the country not only in terms of power but also in terms of now income and I've heard this divide in America reframed particularly after the 2016 election it's not so much between left versus right it's really kind of the haves and the have-nots I know this is an issue that you know you've talked about what can we do to bridge that sort of divide well I want to just take a step back real quick and say I actually surprisingly agree with a lot of what Charlie Kirk said and he made a point to bring up you know the size of government and how perhaps we have some large disagreements on that well I actually want to reach out and say maybe there are many areas where we totally agree on the size of government so when it comes to for example you know warrantless NSA spying if you tell me hey man listen I hate big government I don't want it intervening my in my life in that realm well I say you're goddamn right and let's work together to try to get rid of warrantless NSA spy by the courts I agree with you good so I'm happy to hear that and there's other areas too like you know the drug war for example that's giant government and it ruins people's lives when they throw them in prison for smoking weed or something like that and even I would even go as far as to say like there's a lot of agreement between what I would call the populace left and the libertarian right so Rand Paul for example he's relatively consistent in an anti-war stance and of course if you're pro war you are pro big government by definition because right so if you're anti-war I'm anti-war too and we can agree on that it'd be wonderful or the horrible thing yes okay so now we just both ruined our because we agreed on something Wow we bought that principle so that's that man the only point where I disagree is I don't think George W Bush was a liberal I think he was a war monger and a neoconservative and one of the worst presidents well country's ever seen ok but let me add context to it Medicare Part D borrowing nature that was dollar that was private no child left behind we were having this wonderful kumbaya moment so I hate to ruin it but he did he did grow the size of government tremendously he created a new government agency Department Homeland Security of which you'd put more under a traditional left-wing you know Woody's it's what were the priorities when he grew government and when you spend seven trillion dollars on the war in Iraq that's what is projected to be by 2050 three that's not a left-wing priority it was the left to his day it was Bernie Sanders who voted against all right I'm gonna bring in Loren here so we were talking before this panel about the incentives involved in having an online TV show and I personally struggle with the incentives on social media generally including YouTube because the most inflammatory rhetoric gets the most views the most retweets you know the most you know followers and so I'm curious from your perspective having you know run a very successful online show how do you have a constructive conversation when the incentives seem to be pushing you in the opposite direction well that is something that I'm always struggling with and it actually came up about in our fake news panel yesterday you know someone asked one of the journals that was there why aren't we talking more about the big issues here places where there's genocide the starvation why are these fake news headlines getting so much attention and she gave the very frank answer it's that's what people are attracted to and it doesn't matter whether we publish the other stories or not it's not what's getting shared and as an independent creator you're you're very aware of that fact you know we can spend weeks researching a video about something like political philosophy or the public school system and it'll get a fraction of the views that some you know rect feminists ownage video okay and it's kind of frustrating but at the same time I'm trying to look at it in the way that at least people are getting involved in these issues and you know my hope is if they see it's something that's maybe a little bit sensationalized and radicalized not that I agree with doing anything purposely provocative just to upset people but you know maybe then they'll stick around for a little bit of the deeper conversation maybe then they'll start to realize all right well why is that happening and hopefully at the very least it can lead to a deeper conversation it's not gonna be everybody some some people just like the I gets the outrage machine but there are a lot of people who are gonna stick around maybe for the deeper conversation right and Michael you have an online show as well to say more about the incentives that you've seen from your experience well what I find is that people reward authenticity audiences reward authenticity you cannot pretend to be something you're not audiences are not going to turn up and that's why I hate to break up our kumbaya feelings here I love the polarization I love it I love the partisanship I spent a long time researching a book that I wrote called reasons to vote for Democrats quite thorough by the way or a thorough book I loved it I want a choice not an echo I don't want mealy-mouthed kumbaya I don't want any event I want to know when I'm voting who I'm voting for in the 1930s and 40s one of the major complaints of political scientists was that the parties were indistinguishable yuud's you have on issues anything ranging from life to taxes to death whatever people of having unclear points of view now I know on all of those issues on the size of government on the role of government on socialism on life on marriage on death on everything I know where the parties stand I that that's the country that I want to live in it gives me a choice not an echo the conservative movement was founded in this how do we get along I have a simple answer we win and you lose and that might seem a little harsh that might seem a little harsh but there is no to quote Ronald Reagan's st. Gipper there is no choice between freedom and slavery these are not morally when when one party has elected leaders saying that we should go to Republicans homes where their children's sleep we should physically mob around them though there is not a moral equivalence to some harsh rhetoric from little old me on my internet show those are not the same thing I'm glad that there is a difference now and that's that is my maybe that'll be the sequel to my to my bestseller all of the reasons to all of the reasons to vote for Democrats part two we win you lose so I want to just pick up on that real fast no okay so it was just one second so hold you I think it's in a democracy we need choices yes that's right and Roe choice you might say well said but I think the issue that we're trying to pick up on here is not that having diverse views is bad but a zero-sum politics in which one side wins at the expense of the other side and that's the only way that we framed issues how that has a constructive effect how could one side win and not at the expense of the other side on the question of life we've been talking about Roe vs. Wade a lot because of the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh on the question of life how does one side win without the other side lose you're talking about protecting the life of an unborn baby or snuffing out the life of an unborn baby I don't see a compromise there I don't see a conciliation on that issue I agree that the question of life is probably though you specifically chose what I mean that's a great no it's a talking point because of the fact that what we're doing is we are what we're doing is we're finding these hyper sensationalized metrics by which to measure how we vote for people but what we're talking about is how do we improve individuals lives and yes you're gonna have individuals like like Tim Kaine for example who abides by his belief who is very very much pro-life who is a Democrat but he votes in a manner that's reflective of agenda Tim Kaine is pro-life Tim Kaine is pro-life no Tim I'll supports legal aboard I just what first of all that's what I did literally money from that's literally what I just said I say but he votes his constituency in Virginia but what I'm trying to do is move the conversation beyond this conversation of life because that's where we get bogged down that's actually let's actually but let's actually not only point to you is that listen we can talk about if we want to just sit here and we want to have a discussion that goes nowhere we can talk about what we can talk about issues of life where we probably will disagree we can talk about issues of race where we probably will disagree but let's actually talk about something substantive that we can probably find common ground on like how do we make sure that people have health care in this country how do we make sure the kids get properly educated in this country because what I will not do is waste time on discussions that people just perfect we continue to have these same discussions and sensationalizes so people get clicks this is not a quick that's right it's the death penalty I just want to say that I'm there so pro-life I love the no you're not pro-life no I'm pro-life I'm pro-life and I'm also produce which unfortunately one contango party in this country so as a bandage let's just cut through talking points because like yeah process you're against Gitmo guys guys if you're for due process you're against Guantanamo Bay I'm for due process for American citizens I'm not a good process for for terrorists all right guys I'm gonna step in here mine I'm gonna Geneva Convention protections themselves I'm gonna step in here this is gonna be easy if he keeps walking right into the trap like that so [Applause] Charlie I didn't want did you were you gonna say no I'm enjoying being the calm one on this okay this is a major change Charlie Arbor you know how cory booker had a Spartacus moment I'm having my charlie Kirk mom oh okay so honest I wanna go back to that conciliation I'm gonna go back to the khari here because I think I thought you wouldn't know if you want to jump in I mean we didn't want to mansplain everything to you but I just even with the issue of abortion I think and this applies to most issues it is very easy to see it as black and white but even that whole dichotomy we have a pro-life versus approach voice that doesn't even fully encapsulate the range of political views that people write and there are soldiers when it comes to specifically abortion that we can talk about we can talk about how do we make sure that if people want have a adoption that that is easy and available for them how do we make sure that people are aware of different contraceptive methods so we don't have the unplanned pregnancies in the first place thank you yeah like we either kill all the babies like that's just I don't think that's a very constructive way to look at the situation and I mean abortion if there ever is one people would think it's black and white but it's really not yeah okay can I get ahead so so Bakari I'm gonna do this as respectfully as possible because if I'd if I didn't do this I would regret it barring for this moment go let's go can you tell by the shoes I don't even know what those are those are excuse me guys no naku I have an interest on cable news you said when Kanye West entered the Oval Office is what happened on it black people don't read do you read that's not what I said what did you say well let's actually if we want to go back and I mean the tape said this is what happens when black people don't that's not what I said what did you say I actually said that this is a discussion in my major issue with Kanye West is that he would seems to make anti intellectualism cool and what I said is that we had this is what happens when black that's not what I said that's what the transcript actually I said Charlie do you want you asked me a question so I watch as you regret oh no I don't regret anything charlie so this is the point so I said that's not what I said if you want to know what I said I'm attempting to tell you I said that I have a problem with Kanye West because he attempts to make anti intellectualism cool I said there many people who want to talk about criminal justice reform who will not send Kanye West to the White House to do that I said Kanye West is what happens when Nick Rose don't read you know what that is that is a fact oh so wait so you did say it I said Kanye West is what happened when Negroes don't read that what I just said no that's not what you just say he's a genius wait but time out time out genius onion time out come up what what what what is kanye west and i don't even know why we're here because you said we need have conversations on civility you go on table news and say that a seven-time Grammy winner multi billionaire courageous man going through the Oval Office is what happens when people don't read that's not where that burns of are a hypocrite first of all tell me you're here to have a conversation you're trying to be this big reconciliation we all get a good to go along then you go on CNN and you bash a successful man has the courage to wear make America great again hat you deserve to be called out for that okay all right I'm gonna come in here so Bakari will have response and they're gonna know the topic so personally I love when we feign a big nation that's like the cutest thing ever that but but on a more on event on a much more specific note first of all it's factually accurate because Kanye West is literally a quoted non-reader he doesn't believe in reading okay so so that bothers me but if we're gonna have a conversation about criminal justice reform I actually want somebody who is articulate on the issue of making sure that we ban for-profit prisons I want somebody who wants to end the prohibition on marijuana I want somebody who's going to actually go and talk about putting rehab and social programs in prisons so when people get out we don't have high rates of recidivism I want somebody who can actually talk about issues that are near and dear to my heart and so while we want to feign this and say oh my god you said black people can't read what I did was I directly quoted Chris Rock and making a point about anti intellectualism because I'm sick and tired of individuals who want to get in this discussion but do not have the depth to have it you can have Kanye West you can have Kanye West and you can you can trot him out you can trot him out with the make America great hat on but I stay I don't stand on the shoulders of Kanye West Charlie Kirk no no no no let me finish I stand on the shoulders of Walter Scott of Trayvon Martin of Keith Lamont Scott I stand on the shoulders I stand on the shoulders of all these people so Lisa Reiser while unarmed to be an African American Sandra bland the list goes on and on and on again so it's cool if you want to be indignant right if it's cool if you want to have a I got Macari sellers because oh my god he said Kanye what happens when Negroes don't read I stand on that today and I'll stand on it tomorrow okay all right I'm gonna go ahead we cleared that up all right guys see a multi-billionaire and a seven time guys you will it's a form of early genius guys they're many different forms of judge real quick billion dollars with this this is the incentive in our politics that's destructive you guys are trying to get a Twitter moment right now and that's not helpful I don't want this people saying they want kumbaya moments and then you go on cable television and say someone like this explained it I think you know I know but he with what he said I think some really good points and unfortunately we are living in a society that is celebrity obsessed and people like Kanye West are who we are turning to for political ideas it's not great but here we are he is someone who is obviously not some sort of political mastermind or philosopher king but at the end of the day at least he is trying to raise awareness about issues like prison reform I would love it if it was someone else for getting someone released to us in like life prison for a nominal that's not but Molly point is I appreciate I appreciate that but I appreciate I appreciate that effort right I appreciate the effort of a Kim Kardashian going and get getting one person out I appreciate Kanye West being able to say the word prison reform that's not what I'm talking about that I'm talking about being able to go to the White House and represent people who look like me okay and not only that but speak to the but no no but that's I wish that was the case like that's what that's what we I wish it was the case that Kanye West could go and sit in the Oval Office and have a 15-minute rambling dialogue with the President of the United States and just speak for himself that's not the point he does not he speaks for so many people who look like me who who are brown who are black who were persecuted who were put upon and so when we have that moment where somebody goes out there and embarrasses us because of that everyone else wants to play into identity politics and say that one black man speaks for all of you he's never claimed I appreciate that I wholeheartedly appreciate that however that rhetoric is that it doesn't meet the test of reality that's my only point and and listen if you want to have a conversation if Donald Trump wants to have a conversation about criminal justice reform he can go out and talk to Michelle Alexander he can talk to Jordan Edwards mother or Lucy Mac who's Lucy Macbeth he can talk to Sandra Bland's parents he can talk to people who actually went through this but pardoning one individual or granting clemency to be accurate so one individual is not reformed and all I'm simply saying is if you want to trot Kanye West out fine if you want to wear Yeezys fine but my only point is do not sit here and tell me you're your dope and your hype and you can do everything on criminal justice reform because you tell Kanye West's going to bring in Michael here because criminal justice reform is an interesting area at the left right alignment right now you've seen the Koch brothers for example get very active in trying to Rand Paul then Rand Paul to try and reduce the prison population and reduce mandatory minimum sentences Grover Norquist is very much involved in this so Mike Alana get your response to that do you agree with some of those voices like Norquist and the Koch brothers who who want to reduce the huge budget line item that some of our Corrections facilities have created I think we should put more criminals in prison I see no reason you did agree with that yeah I mean I like Rover Norquist and I like the Koch brothers but there was this wonderful headline in the New York Times a number of years ago by Fox Butterfield it said prisons keep filling despite the crime rate falling as though there weren't some correlation between putting criminals in prison and the crime rate falling down are there certain instances where there's abuse absolutely should we reform that absolutely I am all for putting criminals in prison there are a lot of talking points on this issue I think a lot of them are frivolous particularly when it comes to the war on drugs so I'm happy to talk about it but I probably that will lead us nowhere on the question of is this country too harsh on its criminals or not I I think we're not harsh enough I want a nice safe country and this has been a big win for president Trump you know we're talking about bridging divides and bringing people together on certain issues when you bukhari talk about Kanye West not representing people who have your skin color certainly you've seen the polls that show the president Trump's support among black voters and Hispanic voters has surged over the last year more than doubled among black voters why is that because clearly people are feeling more represented by this administration people are coming together and I think what you're seeing right now with the hysteria with the attacking Republicans in restaurants is the last gasps of people who thought that it was theirs they deserved power Democrats deserved it Hillary Clinton deserved to win the election and it was wrongly taken away from her I think it's absurd and and I'm very pleased that we're speaking frankly because on the question of criminal justice reform more broadly when President Trump speaks about law and order speaks about people not crossing our border illegally using our resources illegally deporting criminals who are in violation of the law his poll numbers shoot through the roof even among Democrats even Democrats don't want blanket amnesty I think law and order is a big winner I think our country is better off for it and we should keep running on it bring everybody together cute if you had if you actually care deeply about law and order then I'd like for you to call for the breakup of the us-saudi alliance because we keep giving them with you over a hundred billion dollars in weapons genocide ones in Yemen Latino journeys on that really agrees on that if you agree great I'm happy legally vocal about how Saudi Arabia's than everyone wonderful there is wonderful and also I want to agree with you on another point you said we should put more criminals in jail I agree that the fraudsters on Wall Street should all be in jail okay I'm not opposed to putting criminals behind bars even if they work on Wall Street I have no look Wall Street often votes Democrats so I've got no political allegiance to them as it is as for the Saudi alliance though I find this to be a huge distraction from the Democrats you're alluding I supposed to the killing the extrajudicial killing of Jamal khashoggi by the Saudi government Jamal khashoggi was a radical Islamist one of his main criticisms of Saudi Arabia we just can we just stop can demand recipes and order in this is why though this is why the title finish I'm not because this is why the time to finish month this is why the title at all Dan'l is what it is he was a vessel Islamist because the 1980s who was good friends with Osama bin Laden so as when you died one of his main criticisms of the Saudi government is that the Saudi government is too pro-israel but I'm not going to work I think Mike what he's not a United States I think a lot of other governments are a lot of bad thing this is why particularly focusing on this it was the Democrats can't find any issue to went run on in the mid term alive thinkers remember when you said you believed in due process like five and a half minutes ago and nag America with the killing of a journalist whose profit I mean I think that I think that but I first of all I think that I think that not you him so when we get to the point we where we have these like really sensationalized talking points we begin to lose people right and people clap and they chant and they scream and this this gentleman was a Washington Post editorial reporter and if you want to talk about something he did in the eighties so be it oh that's how to talk over me that's fine but my only point is that like he was he was killed in an extrajudicial killing in a consulate I mean let's at least allow him to rest and allow and allow and allow an investigation table I didn't but I think that and I think my only point in stopping you and saying that we have to cut this out is because the audience and people deserve better dialogue than that right think it's because the dialogue by sensationalized talking point when we can actually be talking about issues that that maybe maybe when we leave this room somebody will say oh I'm thinking differently about this other than simply saying that oh my god this was a Muslim sympathizer who just got killed in Islamist sympathizer I want to point out though I didn't bring up the topic you and my friend over here brought up the topic and I'm happy to answer it and this happens he was on the left you talked about the us-saudi Alliance on the Left this always happens the left brings up a talking point as an attack on the right the right responds and then they say what can I get it on the Saudi debate this is something where Michael and I might have some disagreement we only disagree on like three things this might be one of them I think Saudi Arabia is one of the great enemies of the west end of America I'm sick and tired of appeasing them yeah they've seen out of 19 of the hijackers were Saudi Arabia we should not be transacting hundreds of billions of dollars in arms sales to fund their unethical warm it probably illegal war in Yemen here's when Michael and I will agree and you might disagree they're also the number one funder of madrasahs across the world which is hotbed centers of radical Islam and and entire terrorist cells they end up being Isis terrorists and and so I think the us-saudi relationship has gone way out of bounds and they never paid a price for what they did at 9/11 yeah I agree with that they never paid a price for the worst terrorist attack probably the worst domestic attacks since 9/11 I sense Pearl Harbor on American soil in the last 100 years so this is something we could agree we agree and Khashoggi I would I would actually agree with Michael that there's probably a little more coverage on this then would be usual that that's just about despite the point but I think it's highlighting a broader context of how Saudi Arabia has been lying to us we've been funding them we've been giving them arms Weavile ovens whatever they want and we have yet to fully allow the 9/11 victims families to sue the sovereign wealth fund to Saudi Arabia bankrupt that country and make them pay those families for what they did on 9/11 all right very good for you to move to a slightly different line of questioning here you know we're here talking about some of the headlines the fact is still if you go beneath the headlines we live in a very broken political system and I want to get to some of those incentives primarily because we don't give them enough airtime to be honest it's often not as sexy I think it's very important and so actually I do want to bring in Bukhari for a second because because you worked on the Obama campaign in 2008 and I think the last time there was an interest in trying to transcend a divide was that campaign and Obama's famous words in 2004 or was that there's not a liberal America there's not a conservative America there's the United States of America and then at the end of his presidency vice news did this great documentary called a house divided and they asked him well what happened to that and he said well that didn't work out so well did it I'm thinking wait hold on that was kind of the premise of why you know why he ran and why he got elected so I don't want to talk so much about like Oh Republicans were obstructionist in Congress or Obama did this or not that I want to get one layer deeper there and asked you know what are the process issues that caused that mission to fail so spectacularly during his presidency well I mean I think that even from even our discussion yesterday amongst my friends on the left we have a tension about those policies and issues and so it's pretty good if we don't maybe get caught up there but delve to where you want to go I began this earlier today by saying that in this country we've made a lot of progress but we have a new study out of ways to go and one of the one of the issues that I give Donald Trump credit for in somewhat of a backhanded way that we are now actually having a discussion about robustly is the issue of race it's an issue in this country that we've never dealt with it's one that we've never that we've never truly had any substance of conversation about and people think that people think that we are very far removed I remind people often you know my father was shot by South Carolina State Troopers in February 8th 1968 protesting a bowling alley they denied his bond in Houston on death row my sister was born without her father my family we had to literally live on on welfare for a period of time because of the simple fact that my father had a felony on his record simply from being an activist right but this isn't something that happened in history books a hundred years ago this is one generation and so I think a lot of the reaction that we had doneghy see Coates wrote a great piece in the Atlantic called the first white president and talking about Donald Trump in the angst that many many people in this country have and so I think that we're dealing weak we are dealing with the reconciliation that I believe the year is 2040 to correct me if I'm wrong but 2040 to when this will be a majority minority country and what we're dealing with now a lot of what we're dealing with is the Browning of America and we're going to have we're gonna have some uncomfortability and people are going to have issues and I think a lot of that played out during the presidency of Barack Obama but even more is playing out now if Hillary Clinton's president we wouldn't be having conversations like this but because Donald Trump is we're having these very profound discussions and so that's a part of the reason that I that I believe we had those hiccups yeah right all right we have some questions here we won't have time to get to every one but we hope to get a few I and can I just say one more thing there needs to be a question mark at the end of the question and please keep it relatively quick so we can get to as many people as possible so this questions mainly for Charlie and Kyle how would you guys feel about the Libertarian Party and the Green Party sort of pooling their resources ok so I think it depends on on the issue in question because there are areas where you're gonna find agreement between greens and libertarians like when we were talking about foreign policy and the drug war there's total agreement there so my whole thing has been and that's you know the whole point of this panel is how will we get along my answer to that is very simple when we do agree we do get along and we can work together on those issues and I have no problem doing that but where we don't agree let's argue let's debate let's have that disagreement and that's what democracy is and sometimes it's messy and we're gonna be at each other's throats metaphorically and other times it's you know great and we can agree like we just did on Saudi Arabia so I think when you go when your issues based and policy driven I think that you'll find that there are many areas where you can agree and work together and then when there's not when you have areas of disagreement ok just debate and that's that and may the best argument win it's great though [Applause] me being more of a civil libertarian I wouldn't suggest the Green Party and party that they would disagree on a lot of things yeah at least half the stuff but I would say that and I'm a libertarian a lot of issues traditionally conservative on other ones but the best thing that's happened in the last eight years is seeing libertarians finally admit that this libertarian party idea has to be within the Republican Party you see Rand Paul you see Thomas nasty Justin Amash and you see conversations and even the top level Republican leadership are talking more like libertarians on issues which is a great thing talking about the stain for government power and even government overreach all those sorts of things are very positive developments and that's happened since the Tea Party movement but again I think that there is there's things that we can agree on and obviously things will fundamentally disagree on and these civil libertarian issues I think is a good starting point it is definitely alright next question hi I asked a similar question tank turn I wanted to get your take Charlie when we see numbers like Democratic semper senators representing 35 million more Americans but are in the minority in the house Democrat Democrats represent 1.3 7 million more people but Republicans have 33 more seats and 33 million more people voted for Hillary but Trump is president mm-hmm you seem to agree that district this district mean shouldn't be politicized can we count on you and other conservatives to reform a system that supports them so yes but I'll take a little exception with what you said first the the premise the premise of what you said though is operating under the idea that we are a democracy we are not a democracy in America nor should we ever become a direct democracy we are a constitutional republic that use a democratic process to put our representatives in power and there's a big difference to that a democracy as warned in the Federalist Papers would have lended itself to the tyranny of the majority decentralization of power and states rights is essential to a republic remember that the states created the federal government the federal government did not create the states and so the diffusion of power to give states such as Wyoming and Montana north to south dakota representation is critical now it works for both parties to remember it's democrats that get electoral votes from hawaii and Rhode Island in small states so it's not a purely partisan thing the final thing to say is that I think it's very dangerous you go to for example a direct national vote because you'll see candidates do nothing go from cities like Miami to Los Angeles San Francisco Seattle and concentrate on heavily urban issues and forget middle of America which essentially everywhere between Manhattan and Malibu so we have our first disagreement we're a constitutional republic but we're also literally a representative democracy so obviously democracy is a very important part of our system and I think we should absolutely abolish the Electoral College because you have to do mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that you know the people that should be in power are the ones who got fewer votes I think anything that would argue on the opposite side of that is honestly laughable I actually disagree with you being from South Carolina I think the Electoral College is like dope right because why else would you not I mean what candidate would come campaign in South Carolina if all you had to do was go to New York in LA I'm so sorry one more last weak point because a lot of my friends a lot of my friends on the left after this election that Hillary won in the popular vote however you want to couch it I'm like the electoral college first of all you can't name a better system one and two we were just champion it in 2008 when it elected a skinny black guy with a funny name so like I I'm no I'm sorry to say it's a matter of principle in my opinion that I actually think I'd go beyond that I would actually say in this country on the top you know most important five or ten issues I think every year our entire country should go to the polls and vote on the five or 10 most important issues so for example if you know one of those was ending the Iraq war I think this could would be in a much better position if people got to directly vote on should we legalize marijuana should we end the Iraq war but stuff like marijuana you are able to directly vote for your state legislature and that is like essentially direct mas there's no like electoral college for your state legislature where a lot of things like drugs are related to as they should be to the states but the bigger idea and this is coming from a Canadian is that it's States who elect the president not individual people so I think the whole balance with the states being semi sovereign entities that are able to like sort of have the I guess lab experiment of smaller issues I think I think that isn't import so if you told me well then let's compromise and find a middle ground and let's have more of a direct democracy on specific issues in the individual states I always take that agreement yeah I take that agree Aleph or Nia has that there's about referendums every two yes I live in New York and we don't have many valid I know they are gonna change that in the state though that's that's what makes the laboratories and I'm a little hesitant about the holiness I wore that one over the nightstand a happy alright at the National all right this is next question bring the states let the people vote in the States okay next question mr. sellers you said you don't stand on the shoulders of people who don't read that's not what I said but go ahead I'm pretty sure it was but then you proceeded to say that you stand on the shoulders of various blacks that have died for various reasons do you really believe that these blacks whose names II Listed were avid readers yes Martin Luther King was an avid reader that was a that was like a next question you want me to we want me to answer do I believe that young black men who are unarmed until actually read the answer to the question is yes they actually read because it's not it's not a big deal to see a black kid read a book so I don't want to answer the question next question hey this question for you Kyle's for you cop seltzer water nobody from you even hot war is over till you bring of our ideology and say that we're still in this what I like to call civil cold war so what kind of policies and the deficient should we do to end the Cold War so what should we do to end the civil that's more on the quest another day yeah that's great asking better questions and usually I know I think the only thing we can do is have conversations like we're having right now and as you could tell at times it was heated and we disagreed but then another time there were points of agreement and you know one of the other points that I was gonna make during the course of the panel is that I I said that a lot of Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric was stuff that I agreed with like for example we would bash NAFTA at every rally and he said okay this is destroying you know working people in this country and we need to to fix it and we need to stop doing these terrible trade deals and I think that the way you bridge that divide is by again being issues driven because when your issues driven you will find points of agreement where as opposed to if you're just a partisan hack you're gonna just be a partisan hack and even if you contradict yourself on an issue you'll say I don't care I agree with the Republican cuz I'm a Republican and that makes no sense Democrats do it - yes thanks buddy thank you very question brah good one yeah so since this is supposed to be how do we get along right my question is for curry why party without the affirmative action mm-hmm what's your opinion on that because I as a white melt applied for a job in a predominantly black neighborhood and they have stipulations they only they have to hire so many black people versus minority whatever the graphics are is that fair I mean so first first I think we need to back up and actually just deal with facts the number one group of individuals that benefit from affirmative action in this country are actually white women so that's that's actually first and that's the first thing that I would that I would tell you I think that for a long period of time I I often tell people that I can't make you dance but you know I do think it's necessary that everybody have access to the dance floor and when you're talking about you know when you're talking about legacy enrollment and you're talking about higher education you're talking about jobs what affirmative action that's done was simply allow individuals who otherwise would not have had the opportunity the opportunity to compete but the largest group of individuals in this country who have taken advantage of affirmative action programs are not blacks or not Hispanics but they're actually white women do you think that there is a time when after all the great gains that affirmative action has made that we should get rid of it now there are these suits against Harvard and Yale for discriminating against Asian students is there a time at which we should phase that affirmative action and when do you see that happening is there a time the answer would be probably yes when do I see that happening I'm not sure um could I add the sort of white woman weigh-in I liked Oh so I think the issue with affirmative action and you know I'm someone who I very much believe in meritocracy but even though I don't support the idea of affirmative action I think the people who do are addressing a real problem which is that there is a big lack of representation among certain groups in positions of power and higher education I think we need to be focusing more on why that is and I think that goes back to let's let's talk about public schools in in neighborhoods where they just simply don't have the funds on where the high school graduation rate is extremely low let's talk about trying to bring skills into these communities let's talk about you know instead of just throwing everyone in prison let's talk about treatment programs for things like that and I think if we begin to address the problem from that issue then the whole debate about affirmative action might not be as so I you you you actually hit the nail on the head because you're talking about a holistic approach right and I think that a lot of times we piecemeal because people want to ask you how do you feel about affirmative action well Curren of action is a is is what some people is what is a remedy to a to a large problem but it's only part of that and so I think that we have to as you said we have to look at you know the fact that African American kids have had less access to four-year-old kindergarten programs they're more likely to go to school hungry they're more likely to have issues that lead to pre-existing or not pre-existing everybody wants tell about pre-existing but preventable diseases like prenatal nutrition is incorrect so I mean that's I agree with you wholeheartedly look at that we're agreeing too much man you said affirmative action as a remedy well it's also a punishment against Asian American students that do quite well it's racism against asian-americans Harvard has a different I know this might be a surprise yeah that you hit me with something new here so tell me teach me yes so the Ivy League has a different grading scale for an asian-american student versus a black student versus a white student it is harder to get into the Ivy League schools as an asian-american student than any other race or box that you check that is pure and simple racism that have different levels for more for different races and you call it a remedy it's a punishment against an entire portion of the American population that is about eight to ten percent based on the census data that's about to come out we'll find out that happens to be the richest group in America Asian Americans are the richest group by race in America and they weren't in the 1940s yet over the last 70 80 years they did the three things you need to do to stay out of poverty in America as the great Ben Shapiro talks about every single day I need a graduate high school get a job and get married before you have kids they've done those things over the last 60 years and now we're punishing them in the college admissions process so we need to be specific though because it actually depends on which group of Asians you're talking about because typically when they came from the lower-income nations they stayed lower income whereas when they came from richer families so for example Vietnamese immigrants are actually more poor than say Chinese immigrants so generalization like oh you know basically they just have family values and I'll probably be richer if they've got everything you could say the same for everything you could say for example immigrants from South Africa or consider African Americans they tend to be richer than African Americans that have been in America for 150 years the multi dentures so you have to use the aggregate of the data that's mom saying and in the aggregate the Asian asian-americans are the richest group in America per race and affirmative action heavily punishes this this portion of American population that has higher test scores higher graduation rates and I mean I think I think I think that the resolve to that to that demand room is I think that because I wasn't aware of that but I think that if you're talking about the Harvard's and the Yale's and you're talking about Ivy League institutions then the answer is not to throw out affirmative action the answer is to reform the programs right and maybe equalize those grading systems and the reasons I say that it's not the reasons the reasons I'm saying that you shouldn't throw out affirmative action is because there was just a recent study that came out that said that if you take an african-american today and you equalize his equalize his wealth or his income potential and earning potential with his white counterparts it take him two hundred and twenty-two years to equal the amount of wealth that they have right and so you're looking at you're looking at a group of individuals who have been disenfranchised in this country for a very long period of time and so affirmative action to her point it's just it's just one slither of a larger holistic that we have don't even know where we got this retro but yes okay very curious as to your answer on this what do you think of a class-based affirmative action system no IIIi don't believe it's government's role to solve any sort of inequities freedom okay opportunity and curious hopefully engineering guys let's get to the next question hi this is a question for mr. Kirk isn't it hypocritical for you to virtue signal about Candice Owens then all over Taylor Swift so how are we supposed to get along you mean Kanye West but yeah thank you for your news a lot of what he's talking about I mean I'm gonna give him more benefited up in his own question than he probably deserves but so I gave Kanye West a lot of praise and then at simultaneously bash Taylor Swift of which I stand by completely so let me give a short answer cause I don't want to monopolize the panel on this first and foremost Kanye West did not demonize Hillary Clinton did not demonize the Democrats even said I love Hillary and Taylor Swift's post that he that she wrote on her Instagram of which I highly doubt she actually wrote and I got a lot of blowback for that but that's okay he's probably written by a Democrat political consultant she said Marcia Blackburn his anti-woman Marcia Blackburn is this she went out of her way to attack the Democrat where Kanye West's messages not all black people had to be Democrats that's what the first thing he said when he entered the Oval Office two distinctly I got there in a political analysis okay well first of all I like I didn't think I'd be defending Taylor Swift well I like the reason she said she's an t woman is because she voted against the reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act so it's fair to categorize that as a woman vote okay but she also championed over eight bills that went after domestic abuse perpetrator so on and so forth so to say that Marshall Blackburn a woman is anti woman does not look at our total and complete all right okay let's not be part of a group and against their broader interests right but right again but just the same Marsha Blackburn is anti woman when her whole track record her whole life is about female empowerment in the good ol boys network of the Republican run party of Tennessee I think is disingenuous for Taylor Swift and shows that she obviously doesn't have an understanding of martial Blackburn's 20-plus years in public servants the Violence Against Women Act your anti-woman neck all right right why are we debating that all right I've got a little voter that we're a better version but that's okay we'll talk go ahead sir thank you as Catholics and seeing that you support that the government's job is to protects why oh yeah why would you support recourse to the death penalty when prison technology has advanced to the point where we can protect the citizenry from dangerous criminals without putting them to death perhaps we can and perhaps we can my view on the death penalty is in you were talking about a Catholic question is in keeping with two millennia of Catholic theology although there is now some question about that raised by the president Vicar of Christ on earth oh but we that we can another time in another place on that there there are different reasons to use punishment you you can use punishment to be rehabilitative you can use punishment to be punitive you can use punishment to protect the public from the criminal all of which I think are perfectly illicit the obviously throughout Scripture st. Paul writes about how the civil authority has the right to come down on people and many doctors of the church and many people from the patristic era also wrote about this okay why should we do it it's because justice is very important and there were there are bad incentives that go down the line when you stop punishing people for heinous crimes it's very easy to sit here and say oh I oppose the death penalty for all cases what about some awful terrorist who kills 3,000 people one sunny morning what about somebody who commits awful crimes rape murder man why wouldn't we attack those people why wouldn't we punish those people I don't really see the argument obviously we should protect human life but people can compromise their their own rights and if you commit a heinous crime that would leave society better off without you I don't see any reason not to punish that and my final point is that there is a medicinal benefit to capital punishment which is to quote dr. Johnson hanging concentrates the mind depend upon it sir when you know you're to be hanged in a fortnight concentrates your mind wonderfully so I think there's a spiritual and a medicinal benefit to it and I highly recommend the Catholics around the world embrace it again tonight so our I am I'm but very dally I am a I'm a conservative against the death penalty I'm gonna give you the conservative reason why I'm against the death penalty first and foremost I think it's wrong the amount of people that we have brought to the death penalty chair that were wrongfully accused ironically it's actually more expensive it's actually more expensive than life in prison because of the appeals and because of the amount of legal jargon around how long it takes to actually get someone to the death penalty chair it's almost 10 times more expensive the third thing I say is this if I'm against government power domestically for the rights of American citizens and it might it's different obviously for foreign nationals then I think that we should be consistent in protecting the life of the unborn even the life of the people that have done who ridden her if eclis heinous crimes that obviously give them 50 life sentence there's no chance to bail and they never allow them to the light of day but I think we as conservatives need to be consistent in how we say well we should be protecting the life of all people no matter how difficult it might be saying yes we want to see that person perish that's where our principles take the most amount of courage to stand for so that's things I will disagree with that but I will say this in closing where I'll put my counterparts on the Left the amount of focus the left puts on the death penalty and saying oh we should not execute them and they turn a blind eye on the millions of people in the womb that's the other thing I think that's a little hypocritical so I don't think I will say I'm consistent from the womb to the tomb I'm pro-life I think that's a nuanced conversation we can have when it comes to that issue but my final point will be this very quickly I think that people who are pro-life should go even beyond being consistent to your extent and argue against the the bombing of eight countries that we're currently doing right now all right so in he wants a lousy bombing all those countries that Obama started wars right yeah I agree at that - you gotta go for first of all I just want to thank all of our panelists this has been a lively conversation and I think I'll just close with two points first on the topic of political divisions this was a topic that the founders very much warned us of and I would look to what George Washington said in his farewell address he said in these times of extreme partisanship our country becomes vulnerable to foreign corruption and influence and and creates fertile ground for authoritarian tendencies and I think these political divisions we have in our country is really the challenge of our time and it's not to say that we all need to agree all the time but we need to have better arguments we have better conversations and that's why I'm grateful to our panelists here and the last thing I'll say that makes me optimistic is when you look at the Millennial demographic right now if you look at the data we tend to be much more issue focused than party focused and if we can have more of a dialogue around that we might have a better republic in the future so thank you all very much and thank you thank our panel and give them a big round of applause a big round of applause for Steven