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Charlie Kirk Debates Texas Student Malcolm on Systemic Racism, DEI, and the Victim Mentality Holding Black America Back
Charlie Kirk engages in a heated but respectful debate with Malcolm, a student at the University of Texas, about systemic racism, intergenerational trauma, and diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. Malcolm argues that historical injustices continue to impact Black Americans today, while Kirk challenges this worldview by pointing to other minority groups, Jews, Cubans, and Asians, who overcame severe oppression and thrived in America. The conversation touches on the War on Drugs, agency versus victimhood, and whether DEI programs truly help or harm marginalized communities. Kirk makes his case that Black America would flourish more by embracing a victor mentality focused on merit and personal responsibility rather than dwelling on past injustices. The exchange highlights the fundamental divide in how Americans view race, opportunity, and success in modern America.
Defining Systemic Racism and When It Ended
Malcolm, a student at the University of Texas, opened the conversation by asking Charlie Kirk when systemic racism ended and how he defines it. Kirk provided a clear definition: systemic racism refers to laws on the books that prohibit individuals from doing something based on their race. According to Kirk, systemic racism largely ended with the Equal Rights Amendment and the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s, when legal barriers based on race were dismantled.
Malcolm pushed back, asking whether there could be lingering effects from that era that explain disparities seen today. This question set the stage for a broader debate about intergenerational trauma, agency, and the role of history in shaping present outcomes.
The Jewish Example: Overcoming Catastrophic Oppression
Kirk challenged Malcolm's hypothesis about lingering intergenerational effects by pointing to Jewish Americans. If the theory of 60-plus years of aftershocks were true, Kirk asked, how could Jews have done so well materially after the Holocaust, despite having everything taken from them? Malcolm acknowledged that Jews had suffered immensely but argued that the comparison wasn't one-to-one with the Black American experience.
Kirk pressed further, noting that Jews actually had it worse in the 1930s and 40s, facing a fanatical dictator attempting genocide. Malcolm attempted to pivot by arguing that Black Americans were enslaved, but Kirk kept the focus on his central point: if intergenerational trauma is the primary explanation for disparities, it should apply across other groups. Since it doesn't, Kirk argued, the hypothesis fails to hold up under scrutiny.
Other Minority Groups Who Thrived Despite Oppression
Kirk expanded his argument by citing additional examples of minority groups who overcame severe hardship in America. He mentioned that Asians were put in internment camps in the 1940s, stripped of property and businesses for years, yet Asian Americans are now among the wealthiest demographics in the country. He also pointed to Cubans who fled Castro's regime with absolutely nothing and have since built prosperous communities, particularly in Miami.
Malcolm tried to counter by suggesting that some Cubans came with wealth, but Kirk dismissed this as a minority of cases. His fundamental question remained: how is it that every other group manages to overcome historical injustices and thrive, but Black America seems perpetually held back? For Kirk's hypothesis to be disproven, he argued, Malcolm would need to show just one other minority group where intergenerational trauma had the same long-term impact. Malcolm couldn't provide such an example.
The War on Drugs and Questions of Agency
Malcolm shifted the conversation to the War on Drugs, arguing that Black and white Americans used drugs at similar rates but that Black Americans received harsher punishments and longer sentences. Kirk rejected this characterization, stating that sentencing disparities were based on income levels and quality of legal representation, not race. He noted that it just so happened that many Black Americans had lower incomes.
Kirk also pointed out that the War on Drugs was actually popular among Black leaders in the 1980s because Black communities were being devastated by drugs. Malcolm then brought up the theory that the government introduced cocaine into inner cities. Kirk flatly rejected this as untrue conspiracy theory territory and suggested they move on to find common ground.
Kirk's central point on this issue was simple: if you don't want to go to jail for doing cocaine, don't do cocaine. He emphasized personal responsibility and questioned why the argument always seemed to externalize blame rather than acknowledge that choices have consequences.
Merit Versus Race: Finding Common Ground
Seeking to establish some common ground, Kirk asked Malcolm a direct question: Would you prefer a country that prioritizes race or one that prioritizes merit? Malcolm responded that he would prefer a country that prioritizes merit, but added that we need to examine why some races are perceived as less meritorious than others. This answer revealed the fundamental divide: Kirk believes merit should be evaluated without racial considerations, while Malcolm believes systemic factors affect how merit is perceived and achieved.
The DEI Debate: Didn't Earn It Versus Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
The conversation turned to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion programs, with Kirk arguing that DEI actually means "didn't earn it." Malcolm defended DEI by explaining its literal meaning—diversity, equity, and inclusion—and questioned what was so problematic about those concepts. Kirk clarified that his issue wasn't with the words themselves but with how DEI operates in practice.
According to Kirk, DEI programs force corporations and colleges to elevate factors that shouldn't matter in decision-making. He argued that DEI puts people in positions based on characteristics other than merit, which ultimately harms everyone. Malcolm countered that DEI isn't just about hiring; it also encompasses research into health disparities, support for people with disabilities, and inclusion of veterans. He noted that at the University of Texas, veterans are among the groups included in DEI initiatives.
Kirk remained unconvinced, maintaining that in practice, DEI programs prioritize immutable characteristics over qualifications and accomplishments. This represented a fundamental disagreement about whether identity-based programs help or harm the communities they're intended to serve.
The Attitude Problem: Past Injustices Versus Future Prosperity
Kirk made his central argument about what he sees as Black America's core problem: a dominant worldview that focuses on past injustices rather than future prosperity. He argued that this mindset is irrefutably prevalent in Black America and that it stands in stark contrast to other minority groups who have succeeded in America. According to Kirk, Cubans don't sit around in Miami lamenting that Castro took their farms; instead, they focus on building prosperity.
Malcolm objected to this characterization as overly simplistic. He argued that Black Americans recognize past injustices and understand that those injustices continue to have effects today. Kirk challenged him: Has that mindset worked for Black America? Malcolm responded by citing Martin Luther King Jr. as an example of how focusing on injustice led to positive change.
Kirk countered that MLK would actually oppose modern DEI programs. He quoted King's famous line about judging people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin, arguing that DEI does the opposite by prioritizing color. Malcolm disagreed, stating that DEI is about creating inclusive spaces for everyone. Kirk shot back that DEI and wokeness fundamentally believe that every action is impacted by systemic injustice and that DEI can fix it—a premise he rejects.
A Final Plea: Victor Mentality Over Victim Mentality
Kirk concluded the debate with a plea to Malcolm and to Black America as a whole: stop embracing a victim mentality and instead adopt a victor mentality. He argued that Black Americans would be far better off if they focused on agency, merit, and personal responsibility rather than dwelling on historical wrongs and seeking remedies through race-based programs.
Malcolm thanked Kirk for his time, and the two parted respectfully despite their disagreements. The exchange exemplified the core debate happening across America about race, opportunity, and the best path forward for communities that have faced historical discrimination. Kirk's position is that dwelling on the past and implementing race-based solutions creates dependency and undermines merit, while Malcolm and those who share his view believe that acknowledging historical injustices and their ongoing effects is essential to achieving true equity.
Video Transcript
[00:02] Okay. Hello.
[00:03] Uh hello. Uh my name is Malcolm and I
[00:05] guess my question to you today is um
[00:08] when did systemic racism end and what is
[00:11] your definition of systemic racism?
[00:12] Systemic racism is a law on the books
[00:14] that prohibits an individual from doing
[00:16] something based on their race. It part
[00:18] it largely ended with the Equal Rights
[00:19] Amendment and the Civil Rights Act in
[00:21] the 1960s.
[00:22] Okay. And so do you think that it just
[00:24] ended right then and there and there's
[00:25] no lingering effects of that that could
[00:28] you know kind of explain some of the
[00:30] disparities we see today or
[00:32] if the hypothesis of lingering
[00:33] intergenerational 60 plus year effects
[00:35] are true then you must tell me how Jews
[00:38] have done so materially well post
[00:40] Holocaust despite everything being taken
[00:41] from them.
[00:42] Well I I don't think that's a onetoone
[00:45] um
[00:45] you're right Jews had it much worse than
[00:47] blacks. Well, I think that also there
[00:49] are
[00:50] Have black Americans ever had a crazy
[00:51] fanatical dictator trying to kill half
[00:53] their population in a span of five
[00:54] years?
[00:55] Um, we have been enslaved for
[00:57] That's not the question. I'm saying have
[00:59] you I'm saying Jews actually had it far
[01:01] worse than black Americans did in the
[01:03] 1930s and 40s. Way worse.
[01:05] But do we have to look at Jews as how we
[01:09] should like black people should
[01:11] No, I'm saying you have to prove the
[01:12] argument that it applies to other
[01:14] groups. So your argument is that things
[01:16] pass down through generations, right?
[01:18] That there's aftershocks, there's a
[01:19] ripple effect. We discount that as very
[01:22] minimal at best. So you have to show me
[01:24] another minority group that has suffered
[01:26] that it held them back.
[01:28] So for black people to have for the 60
[01:31] plus, you know, like disparity to be
[01:34] true, you have to see that in another
[01:36] group of
[01:37] Well, yeah. Because then it's a rule,
[01:38] right? So the rule should apply to other
[01:40] groups that had other types of
[01:42] suffering. But the way black people were
[01:44] treated in America isn't the same as any
[01:46] other group.
[01:47] Well, I mean, Asians were put in
[01:48] internment camps actually in the 1930s
[01:50] and 40s.
[01:50] Well, yeah,
[01:51] again, and Jews came with no money in
[01:52] the 40s or 50s after
[01:54] and that hurt their communities,
[01:56] right? But then they were able to
[01:57] overcome it. So, how is it that Asians
[01:59] are super wealthy now?
[02:00] They were put in internment camps and
[02:02] then let out of camps and then
[02:04] but for two or three years some Asians
[02:06] and Chinese and Japanese were in
[02:07] interment camps with no ability to own
[02:09] property, run business. I mean, it was
[02:10] terrible. Every group has gone through
[02:12] some period or form of suffering. And I
[02:14] do you let me ask you a question. Do you
[02:16] think that the material bad status of
[02:18] black America right now has anything to
[02:21] do with decisions that black Americans
[02:22] have made?
[02:23] I think that while it may have uh that
[02:26] might be part of the reason, I think
[02:28] that there has been a push for black
[02:32] Americans to make that choice.
[02:35] I I don't understand.
[02:36] I would I would say like um take the war
[02:38] on drugs for example. I would think that
[02:40] that is a way that um black and white
[02:43] people were using, you know, drugs at
[02:45] similar rates, but black people were
[02:47] punished for it more severely and given
[02:49] longer sentences.
[02:50] Okay, none of that is correct, but
[02:51] that's fine.
[02:52] It is.
[02:53] It's based on income, not based on race.
[02:54] But again,
[02:56] but those are pretty much the same
[02:58] thing.
[02:58] Again, I I always find the war on drugs
[03:00] argument so laughable. You don't want to
[03:01] go to jail for doing cocaine, don't do
[03:02] cocaine. Like, I don't understand the
[03:04] argument. Like, it's not that hard.
[03:07] This this is it's not complex stuff,
[03:09] right? It's as if like wait, so the
[03:11] argument is that a bunch of black people
[03:13] were doing cocaine and they caught us
[03:15] and were the problem.
[03:16] Well, they were given longer sentences
[03:18] than white people, even though white
[03:20] people same drugs at the same
[03:21] hotly and highly debated, but it still
[03:23] is
[03:23] it's it's not I've heard it from a lot
[03:26] of sources.
[03:26] If you if you distill it down based on
[03:28] the quality of attorney they had based
[03:29] on their income level, it just so
[03:31] happens a lot of black Americans had a
[03:32] lower income level.
[03:33] Why is that though? And and I think
[03:35] that's there's a reason that that's the
[03:37] case.
[03:37] And just just so we're clear,
[03:38] that's a systemic reason.
[03:39] The war on drugs was insanely popular
[03:41] with black leaders back in the 1980s
[03:43] because black communities were actually
[03:45] being ravaged by drugs. There's a reason
[03:46] why we launched it.
[03:47] Well, there's Why are they They were put
[03:49] in there in the first place.
[03:50] Oh, so the government like put a bunch
[03:53] of cocaine in the inner cities
[03:54] into the inner cities. That is a that's
[03:57] that's true.
[03:58] No,
[03:59] I believe that is true.
[04:00] Yeah, it's not true.
[04:01] Oh, you don't have to. Well, you can
[04:02] move on from that.
[04:03] It's okay. But let's try to find some
[04:04] common ground cuz I don't want this to
[04:06] be overly combative.
[04:07] Okay, I would agree.
[04:08] Would you prefer a country that
[04:10] prioritizes race or one that prioritizes
[04:13] merit?
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[04:43] I think we should have a country that
[04:45] prioritizes merit and I think we need to
[04:46] look at why some races are seen as less
[04:50] meritous than others.
[04:52] Okay. So again, just to go back to it, I
[04:54] can give you another example. Cubans
[04:56] came here with nothing. Any Cubans in
[04:58] the audience?
[05:00] Nothing, right? Nothing, right? Am I
[05:02] right? Nothing because of Castro. Like
[05:05] the poorest people ever to come to
[05:07] America would be Cubans. They're
[05:09] incredibly wealthy per capita. Now, h
[05:11] how does it keep on happening with every
[05:13] other group, but black America is like
[05:15] seemingly always held back?
[05:17] I think you also have to look at there
[05:19] are Cubans who move here with wealth.
[05:21] It's the ones who are rich enough to
[05:22] move.
[05:23] At least a lot of them are. And I think
[05:26] that even the ones who do come here, you
[05:28] know, with nothing, which a lot do,
[05:30] but you have to so in order for your
[05:32] hypothesis to be true, it needs to bear
[05:35] out with one other group. So there have
[05:37] been
[05:38] what what do you Okay. What do you think
[05:40] my hypothesis is?
[05:41] Your hypothesis is one of
[05:42] intergenerational struggle that what has
[05:45] happened 60 years ago has direct impact
[05:47] to the material well-being of what
[05:48] happens today. We reject that premise.
[05:51] You think that his like history affects
[05:53] the president? Not nearly as much as you
[05:56] think it does. Actually, we we we
[05:57] believe that you are you are most
[05:59] importantly a consequence of your agency
[06:01] and your actions. Most importantly, and
[06:04] yes, there are historical implications
[06:06] that impact you. Of course, they do. But
[06:08] to just say something that happened not
[06:10] in your lifetime and not even in all of
[06:12] your dad's lifetime.
[06:13] Well, it happened in my grandmother's
[06:15] lifetime though. And it affected how my
[06:17] dad grew up and it affected how,
[06:19] you know, what he had to do to get where
[06:20] he is and for me to do what I did to get
[06:23] here.
[06:23] Okay. You you got to break you got to
[06:25] break that down though at
[06:26] Do you want me to explain like my whole
[06:28] family's history of how we
[06:29] don't necessarily know but at some point
[06:31] you have to say huh despite all the bad
[06:33] stuff happening to us we still could
[06:35] have made good choices and we would have
[06:37] flourished
[06:37] well I think you can make good choices
[06:39] and I think that you should also help
[06:40] people make good choices because I don't
[06:42] see why we shouldn't
[06:43] No we should help people make good
[06:44] choices do you know why that's why we
[06:46] should get rid of DEI which actually
[06:48] elevates and rewards people that have
[06:51] not necessarily worked as DEI just means
[06:54] diversity, equity.
[06:55] No, it means didn't earn it. But yeah,
[06:56] that's fine. So,
[06:58] but it it it doesn't.
[06:59] I know.
[07:00] Well, why would you say that then? You
[07:02] know,
[07:02] well, because the essence of DEI means
[07:03] didn't earn it.
[07:04] No, it doesn't. It means diversity,
[07:05] equity, and inclusion. And I will
[07:06] explain what's wrong with inclusion.
[07:09] What's What's so evil about that word
[07:11] that you don't like it?
[07:12] Okay. Well, in practice, not the word
[07:14] itself, this is a forced corporate
[07:18] program or college program, however you
[07:19] want to put it, that is putting people
[07:21] in positions that have less. I went with
[07:23] this the previous guy. It's very simple.
[07:25] You are elevating things that do not
[07:26] matter that should not be in the matrix
[07:28] of making decisions.
[07:29] DEI isn't just about hiring. It can be
[07:32] research to find, you know, disparities
[07:33] of, you know, diseases against different
[07:36] groups. And it can be like, it's not
[07:38] just race. It's also, you know,
[07:40] disabilities. It's also veterans. You
[07:43] know, that's a group of people that we
[07:45] include here at Texas.
[07:46] So, I I want to get to the la next
[07:47] question, but here's my plea to you and
[07:49] to all of black America, which is this.
[07:52] You could pick the Salvadorians, the
[07:54] Mexicans, the Iranians, the Persians,
[07:56] the Syrians, the Lebanese. You could
[07:58] pick any country. The ones that have
[08:00] succeeded reject the attitude that you
[08:02] and the prior guy have said.
[08:04] My what do you think my attitude is?
[08:06] The again, your attitude is very clear.
[08:08] you are prioritizing the past and
[08:10] deemphasizing agency in the media.
[08:12] You're saying that the past should um
[08:15] yeah, but all these groups have effect
[08:16] on how what we do.
[08:17] All these other groups do not do not
[08:19] believe this and that because when you
[08:21] talk to all of these other
[08:22] well again you could look at their
[08:23] cultural ethos. You could look at how
[08:24] what
[08:25] again so you you cannot find in major
[08:28] Cuban literature in Miami this belief
[08:31] like well I'm not able to succeed
[08:33] because they took my farm away and
[08:34] everything's gone in Castro instead.
[08:35] what I'm saying and that's not what
[08:37] anyone who's pushing for DI.
[08:38] It is though and that's the problem.
[08:40] No, but the vast majority of people I've
[08:41] talked to who support DI don't say that.
[08:44] Okay, they might not say it but again in
[08:45] practice but I'm saying it in black
[08:47] America it is a dominant worldview
[08:50] irrefutably that focuses on past
[08:53] injustices and not future prosperity.
[08:55] Can we agree on that?
[08:57] Well, what Okay, can you say that again?
[08:59] In black America, there is an attitude,
[09:02] a worldview, an ethos that is
[09:04] predominantly focused on past
[09:06] injustices, not on future prosperity.
[09:09] Well, I think it's I think one, you're
[09:11] simplifying it too much. I think black
[09:13] Americans see that there has been um
[09:16] past injustices and those past
[09:18] injustices are still here to some
[09:20] extent.
[09:21] Has that mindset worked for black
[09:22] America?
[09:23] Well, what do you mean? I mean, it
[09:25] worked for MLK. I mean, it worked for
[09:26] him. Actually, MLK actually had the
[09:28] exact opposite. MLK would be marching in
[09:30] the streets against DEI, actually.
[09:31] No, he would not be.
[09:32] Well, he said, "I don't care about
[09:34] color. I care about content of
[09:35] character. DEI cares about color."
[09:37] DEI is about making an inclusive space
[09:41] for everyone of every
[09:42] DEI and wokeness believe that every
[09:44] action is impacted by some systemic
[09:47] injustice and that DEI can fix it. We're
[09:50] not going to agree much. My final plea
[09:51] is this is I just hope black America
[09:53] stops this victim mentality and embraces
[09:56] a victor mentality. They'll be much
[09:58] better if they do that. Thank you very
[09:59] much.
[10:00] Thank you for your time.
[10:14] [Music]
[10:24] [Music]
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