Jason Jimenez and Billy Hallowell Examine Charlie Kirk as a 21st Century Martyr for the Christian Faith

[00:00] The nation continues to mourn the life

[00:02] of Charlie Kirk. And in addition to

[00:05] mourning though, revival is happening.

[00:07] Some really incredible things happening

[00:09] across America. On Sunday, we saw a huge

[00:13] event with tens of thousands of people

[00:15] gathering to honor Charlie Kirk's life.

[00:18] Jason Jimenez, how you doing today?

[00:20] >> Good, Billy. Good to be with you.

[00:22] There's one topic in particular that we

[00:25] want to hit on today and this is really

[00:26] important because one of the

[00:27] conversation points that has come out of

[00:30] Charlie Kirk's life and death has been

[00:33] this issue of whether or not he was a

[00:35] martyr. And there's been a little bit of

[00:36] a debate about this in the church. Some

[00:39] people saying absolutely he's a martyr

[00:42] and others saying well I don't know if

[00:45] I'm comfortable using that term. Maybe I

[00:47] shouldn't. And so we're going to dig

[00:48] into this. Let's just start with the

[00:50] central question. In your perspective,

[00:52] when you look at Charlie, who he was,

[00:55] why he died, everything that's happened

[00:56] in the last two weeks, would you

[00:58] categorize him as a martyr?

[01:01] >> One, thank you for having this

[01:03] conversation, Billy, because I do think

[01:05] in the 21st century, we need to have it

[01:06] in America. And because we live in the

[01:09] most prosperous country in the world

[01:11] where we have the first amendment and

[01:12] we've seen individuals like Charlie,

[01:14] yourself, myself been able to freely go

[01:17] into places to preach the gospel to

[01:20] proclaim what we believe. Yet at the

[01:22] same time, I've been persecuted to some

[01:24] degree. Clearly, our friend uh who we

[01:27] lost, but in the presence of Jesus

[01:29] Christ, we're praying for Eric and the

[01:30] kids in the ministry at TPUSA.

[01:33] He was being harassed nonstop. So when

[01:36] you look at church history and this is a

[01:38] field that I've spent a lot of my

[01:40] ministry career in and looking at church

[01:42] history

[01:44] he he clearly is a martyr. I mean the

[01:46] Greek term is marttos right where we get

[01:48] the word martyr eventually and it's used

[01:51] over a hundred times with this word

[01:53] named witness. So we render it in

[01:55] English as you know just the term

[01:56] witness. So like when you look at Acts

[01:58] 18 that you will be my witnesses in

[02:00] Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria like the

[02:02] spreading to then all the way into

[02:05] Revelation chapter 2 when you have this

[02:08] Antipus who was my witness you know of

[02:10] the faith who kept the faith and he

[02:14] clearly was killed as a martyr where it

[02:16] says the throne of Satan is at to then

[02:19] Revelation 12:11 that you see that that

[02:22] they were witnesses of Christ unto death

[02:25] that clearly clearly by definition which

[02:28] means a testifier or a witness to the

[02:31] beliefs that they had in Christ but is

[02:33] also somebody who was willing to die for

[02:35] what they believed. And so by that

[02:37] definition that was carried out

[02:39] throughout from the just a martyr

[02:40] periods when he died in 165 you know

[02:43] hence they put the word martyr to his

[02:45] name later on in history we start to see

[02:47] this take place in the second century

[02:49] clearly in the 4th century. So when you

[02:51] had that great you know church historian

[02:55] he was measuring and and and looking at

[02:58] people in martyrdom collectively and so

[03:01] even when you classified those

[03:02] individuals that to even St. Augustine

[03:06] who was wanting to have devotions ready

[03:08] for the church to talk about the saints

[03:11] before us. That means the godly people

[03:12] who died for their faith so we can

[03:15] commemorate and remember the lives that

[03:17] they lived and how they gave their life

[03:19] down because of Antibus and because of

[03:21] Steven in Acts chapter 7 based on that.

[03:24] Yes, clearly Charlie Kirk is a 21st

[03:27] century modern modern martyr. You know,

[03:30] one of the things I think that has held

[03:32] people back from understanding it is

[03:33] that the assumption, and this is

[03:34] something that I was very guilty of, and

[03:36] I've actually talked about it in the

[03:37] last, you know, two weeks, you know, 12

[03:39] days since this has happened for years

[03:42] when I looked at what Charlie did, I

[03:44] would say, well, I really like Charlie.

[03:45] I interact with him. I, you know, but I

[03:47] would I'd be a little bit separated and

[03:49] a little bit careful because it's so

[03:51] political. And even though I might agree

[03:53] with certain values, right, that are

[03:54] being espoused, I would sort of pull

[03:56] back from that. And my assumption

[03:58] because of that was that oh he's

[04:00] primarily motivated by his politics like

[04:03] that's what drives him. But then in the

[04:05] last couple of years as I started doing

[04:07] more with TPUSA faith particularly the

[04:10] last year I started to realize wait a

[04:13] minute this is somebody who is

[04:14] incredibly driven by his faith. Why he's

[04:17] doing what he does politically

[04:20] culturally socially is because of his

[04:22] Christian faith. That is what is driving

[04:24] it. And I probably knew that

[04:25] subconsciously, but I wasn't fully aware

[04:27] of it until I saw it. And I think that

[04:29] was a mistake on my part, right? That

[04:32] was actually not fair to make those

[04:34] judgments at the time. And so I have had

[04:37] such a good time over the last six

[04:39] months working with TP Faith and seeing

[04:41] what they're doing and really

[04:42] understanding the mission of that. And

[04:45] so I I say all that to to say I think

[04:47] some people make this assumption and you

[04:49] spoke to this a little bit but I want

[04:50] you to dig in a little bit more on this

[04:52] that he's primarily driven by politics.

[04:54] So he can't possibly then be considered

[04:56] a martyr. Yeah. I mean if you look at

[04:59] John the Baptist and again when we say

[05:02] someone like Charlie resembles

[05:04] characteristics not saying he had the

[05:06] same anointing as John the Baptist. So

[05:07] let's just understand that contextually.

[05:09] John the Baptist was a herald. His job

[05:12] prophetically from Isaiah 40 was to

[05:15] present the coming Messiah which he did.

[05:17] But in that in the crosshairs as you see

[05:20] with any martyr Thomas Beckett you know

[05:22] in the 1100s is when you're saying the

[05:25] government is trying to interfere that

[05:27] is the state with the church and you

[05:29] stand in the gap for certain values and

[05:31] beliefs in this case as a Christian to

[05:33] oppose against a corrupt uh you know

[05:36] ecclesiastical supremacy. John the

[05:38] Baptist did that with Herod. He called

[05:40] out the immorality. When you look at

[05:43] Charlie Kirk, it was never the case that

[05:46] he was trying to establish an

[05:47] organization that was based on politics

[05:49] and politics alone. Our great friend

[05:51] Frank Turk said numerous times in his

[05:53] interviews who was there sadly the day.

[05:56] But in in a way gives great comfort

[05:58] especially for Erica, but he said that

[06:01] Charlie was known to say and we heard

[06:03] him numerous times in these talks that

[06:05] he would give. Politics is penis to the

[06:08] gospel. It's because of what he believes

[06:11] and that's what he said right at when he

[06:12] was being interviewed even towards the

[06:14] end of his life is it was almost kind of

[06:15] like he was preparing for it. He would

[06:18] say, "I want people to know one thing

[06:21] about me, one thing only, my faith." So

[06:23] when you have somebody who is faithful

[06:25] like Charlie Kirk and he was speaking to

[06:29] the corruption in our culture and trying

[06:31] to preserve the next generation, that is

[06:34] prophetic. That's not partisan. And the

[06:37] other thing that I want to point out

[06:38] that we get confused in America because

[06:40] think oh that doesn't happen in America.

[06:42] No, it is happening,

[06:45] Billy. And what we saw publicly, sadly,

[06:49] tragically, was the taking of a man's

[06:52] life who was there who was allowing

[06:53] people to speak their mind as you see

[06:55] often times with prophets. They're

[06:57] taking people, you know, allowing people

[07:00] to disagree with him, you know, pundits,

[07:02] whatever the case, show viteral hatred.

[07:06] This man was doing what he loved best in

[07:09] a platform that allowed him to speak

[07:11] what he believed but at the same time

[07:13] somebody who was planning to take his

[07:15] life because he was against what he

[07:17] believed. And so in church history as

[07:19] you explore martyrd dome and the and its

[07:22] importance in church history from the

[07:24] examples of Steven Martyr to Justin

[07:25] Martyr

[07:27] is that what we realize is this

[07:29] hostility or it was known in the in the

[07:32] Latin term you know is the idiom fed. It

[07:36] was the hatred of the faith. If you look

[07:38] at Charlie's ministry that's what it was

[07:42] out there especially in college

[07:44] campuses.

[07:45] He had people who would show up who

[07:47] hated what he believed. So there was a

[07:50] phase in church history which is

[07:52] applicable to uh Charlie Kirk here.

[07:54] White martyrdom is somebody who's facing

[07:57] hostility, ridicule, vilification,

[08:00] right? Death threats which they were

[08:03] increasing right year after year the

[08:05] more popular and famous he became.

[08:08] He faced that for years as a young man

[08:11] and yet he still said I need to be among

[08:14] the people. I need a minister. And the

[08:16] last one obviously is the red martyrdom

[08:19] which is when someone's life is taken

[08:21] because of their faith. So when you when

[08:23] you when you just say it's all politics

[08:25] clearly those individuals are only

[08:27] seeing in part aspects that Charlie

[08:30] spoke about. But it was all built and

[08:33] surrounded the gospel message with his

[08:35] biblical worldview. I mean, even the

[08:38] last thing he was talking about when

[08:39] that gunshot rang out had to do it was a

[08:42] faith issue. When you're talking about

[08:44] the transgender issue, this is an issue

[08:45] that people have perspective on because

[08:49] they look at things through a biblical

[08:50] lens. And so, when you start to look at

[08:53] all the pieces here, and I think this is

[08:55] Well, let me just ask you, I don't want

[08:56] to leave the question because I've

[08:57] thought a lot about this after being at

[08:59] the memorial, after spending time like a

[09:02] lot of us have pondering this. What do

[09:03] you think it is about Charlie Kirk and

[09:06] about what happened 12 days ago that has

[09:09] created what people are calling revival?

[09:11] What people are seeing before you? Let

[09:13] alone, let's talk about the fact that

[09:15] 90,000 plus people showed up in person.

[09:18] Some of them I got on a plane back to

[09:19] JFK in New York City, okay? And half the

[09:22] plane had Charlie Kirk signs and MAGA

[09:24] hats on and you know Charlie Kirk hats

[09:27] on. That means that New Yorkers flew all

[09:30] the way over there. I mean, that's

[09:32] shocking. I'm not gonna I'm a New

[09:33] Yorker. That's shocking.

[09:35] >> What made people react the way that they

[09:37] have to this?

[09:39] >> Well, one is one thing we appreciate

[09:41] about Charlie at such a young age. I

[09:43] mean, you and I are, you know, years

[09:44] older than him. I remember meeting him

[09:46] for the first time when he was about 20

[09:48] years old. He came and did something at

[09:50] Summit Ministries. And already then, you

[09:53] know, we had our eyes on this young man.

[09:55] But it was even from the beginning, he

[09:57] was so teachable. He was very humble.

[09:59] And there's a couple verses that have

[10:01] come to mind that I'd like to share to

[10:04] answer that. One of them is if you

[10:06] remember what Jesus said in Matthew

[10:07] chapter 5, he said in verse 10, he said,

[10:09] "Merry, blessed are those who are

[10:10] persecuted. Catch this. For

[10:11] righteousness sake, one thing that we

[10:14] saw with Charlie, he loved his wife. He

[10:17] loved his kids. He was a good boss to

[10:19] his staff. He was respectful to people

[10:21] no matter their gender, their color,

[10:23] their background, their religion. And

[10:26] when you see somebody who was being

[10:28] persecuted for righteousness sake and

[10:30] knowing the promise that Jesus said in

[10:32] John 15:18, he says, "The world hated

[10:35] me, so therefore it's going to hate

[10:37] you." Like he understood that. And then

[10:40] when it says in 2 Timothy 3:12 that if

[10:43] you want to live a godly life, you will

[10:46] be persecuted in the name of Christ. And

[10:48] what we're seeing is people saying,

[10:50] "That's who I want to be like. That's

[10:52] what I want my children to follow." I

[10:54] saw a post before coming on this

[10:56] interview, a well-known speaker said,

[10:59] "Instead of having women follow Taylor

[11:01] Swift, look at Erica Kirk. Instead of

[11:05] men following, you know, fill in the

[11:07] blank of a man, let's look at the way

[11:09] that Charlie Kirk led." I was leaving

[11:12] the gym, Billy, today. And I've always

[11:15] just been very evangelistic and share my

[11:17] faith and giving any opportunity, Lord

[11:19] willing, that I can have to to share the

[11:21] gospel. And we saw our vice president

[11:23] say in the last almost two weeks he's

[11:26] been sharing more about Jesus Christ

[11:27] than he ever has because of this. And

[11:29] what we're seeing is people are wanting

[11:32] to have these kind of conversations. So

[11:34] this young man's coming to me. We're

[11:35] talking. I said, "Hey, did you see the

[11:36] funeral?" I I just assume he did. He

[11:38] said, "I actually did." I said, "Did you

[11:39] know anything about Charlie Kirk?" He

[11:40] said, "No, not really." He says, "But

[11:42] because of the response that I'm seeing

[11:44] in this just just the spirit," that's

[11:46] what he said, "the spirit." I don't know

[11:48] how religious this guy is, if any, but

[11:50] he seemed a little spiritual. He's the

[11:52] same age as Charlie was. He's this guy's

[11:54] 31. He says, "I begin to look at this

[11:57] man. I've been going on social media,

[11:59] watching some of his content." He's

[12:01] like, "And it's resonating with me. God

[12:04] used this man and I believe he had the

[12:07] gift of faith." Okay, we knew he was a

[12:09] great entrepreneur. He's very

[12:10] passionate. He's very determined. He was

[12:12] very driven. He had great vision. But he

[12:14] had the gift of faith that the Holy

[12:16] Spirit gave him. Right? 1 Corinthians

[12:17] 12:1 and it was manifested through this

[12:20] man at such a young age. And because of

[12:22] that, we can authenticate that. That is

[12:25] genuine. That's a true testifier of one

[12:28] who's living what they believed. And

[12:31] that right there, instead of the riots,

[12:33] instead of being bitter, we're walking

[12:36] in min ministry reconciliation. So,

[12:38] we're seeing so many people respond like

[12:40] this revival that's breaking out because

[12:42] people are broken and lost and yet they

[12:44] see

[12:45] >> and you just mentioned something that we

[12:46] have to emphasize here and I and I

[12:49] actually think this is a strength right

[12:51] now and this could change tomorrow and I

[12:53] hope it doesn't

[12:55] this movement of what is happening at

[12:57] the at this moment.

[12:59] >> We've had a lot of trauma traumatic

[13:00] things happen in this country the last

[13:02] 10 years. Many times the reaction is

[13:04] that a city burns, is that people are

[13:06] physically harmed, is that anger

[13:08] overtakes us. What we have seen the last

[13:12] 12 days have been prayer vigils.

[13:16] I mean, incredible scenes outside of

[13:19] that. I was telling you this off camera,

[13:20] outside of the Turning Point offices,

[13:22] hundreds of people gathered. Hundreds of

[13:25] people gathered singing hymns, people

[13:27] preaching. The reaction to this, I think

[13:30] seeing it at the memorial especially,

[13:33] has been people turning inward to look

[13:36] at themselves, turning outward towards

[13:38] God and others. I don't I haven't seen

[13:41] that before and I've been it's been

[13:43] amazing to watch that response and not

[13:46] the horrific ugly responses we've seen

[13:49] many times to other events.

[13:52] >> One thing that reminds me what you just

[13:54] said and why we're seeing a response

[13:56] this way and there's so many different

[13:57] reasons. We're just praying for the Holy

[13:58] Spirit to move in the midst of this

[14:00] brokenness and this humility. But it

[14:02] starts with our our governance. It does.

[14:04] It starts with the people. Remember the

[14:05] the proverb said, you know, when the the

[14:07] when the when those who are in power

[14:09] lead with righteousness, the people

[14:10] rejoice. But if they suppress them

[14:13] unrighteously, they groan. And so we

[14:16] pray that we're seeing a revival in that

[14:18] sense. But also, instead of responding,

[14:20] like Erica said, we don't respond hate

[14:23] with hate. We respond in love. we

[14:26] respond in forgiveness. That's what

[14:28] Christ demonstrated in coming, you know,

[14:30] and taking on flesh and taking our

[14:32] place. Remember our friend Charlie was

[14:34] always saying, you know, in four words

[14:36] he says, you know, God took my place,

[14:39] right? And then he led to

[14:40] substitutionary atonement, grace. And he

[14:43] would explain what that looked like. And

[14:44] and I could not help when I was watching

[14:46] yesterday as I think of martyrs who

[14:49] lived before us. Justin Martyr said

[14:52] this. He said, "The more we are

[14:53] persecuted, the more do others in

[14:56] everinccreasing numbers embrace the

[14:58] faith and become worshippers of God

[14:59] through the name of Jesus." Isn't that

[15:01] powerful? So when someone dies for their

[15:03] faith like Charlie, you know what it

[15:05] does? It creates more people to say that

[15:10] is a genuine follower of Jesus Christ,

[15:12] not a not a martyr in the sense of a a

[15:14] terrorist, right? Or somebody who's

[15:16] going to bomb, you know, a local place

[15:18] and and kill innocent people and say,

[15:20] "I'm going to go to paradise as a

[15:21] result." not that type of martyr,

[15:23] someone who truly testified to what they

[15:26] believed to be true. And he believed

[15:29] Christianity was true. And that's why

[15:30] we're not seeing riots because remember

[15:34] that's not what Christ came to do. He

[15:36] wasn't a revolutionist who came to

[15:38] overthrow Rome or to overflow overthrow

[15:41] the Sanhedin. He came to offer peace to

[15:44] the world. He says in the world you have

[15:45] what? Trouble. But fear not, for I will

[15:48] bring what? Peace. and you become an

[15:50] overcomer. That's what he led. That's

[15:53] how he led, I should say. And that moved

[15:55] me to be honest as you and I are doing

[15:57] this right now because even as a church

[15:59] historian kind of guy theologically when

[16:02] I started to evaluate aspects of

[16:04] Charlie's life even before all this.

[16:06] Yeah. Yeah. You're right. It it'd be

[16:08] easy to put him in the political

[16:09] activist category. But the more you

[16:12] follow him and knew what he stood for,

[16:14] this was a man of God. This was a man

[16:17] who should not have died at his age.

[16:19] What were the things that he was saying

[16:20] that were problematic? Nothing. Right?

[16:23] He said, "Believe in God. Get married.

[16:26] Men can't have babies." Right? We're all

[16:29] made in the image of God. Jesus came to

[16:31] take the place for you and me because

[16:32] we're born in sin and he offers us the

[16:35] gift of salvation. Uh that's what he

[16:38] taught. Limited government, the

[16:39] constitution, first amendment rights,

[16:41] giving people access to him that

[16:43] disagree with him or would cuss him out.

[16:45] And yet he wouldn't do it in return. He

[16:47] led with an example. And you know what?

[16:49] It's inspired my kids. I got two in I

[16:51] got one who graduate college, one one in

[16:53] college, and two in high school. And

[16:55] they've even looked at the life of

[16:56] Charlie, Billy, as you know, and they're

[16:59] like, "That's the kind of person that we

[17:00] want to lead our generation."

[17:03] >> I love that. And you know, just as we

[17:06] close here quickly,

[17:08] when you look at the reactions from some

[17:10] of the people in the very progressive

[17:12] world or people who didn't like what he

[17:15] stood for or who cherrypick or look, I

[17:17] mean, look, if if people judged me by my

[17:20] worst five quotes over the last year,

[17:23] you would not want to be my friend or

[17:24] talk to me probably right now. I'm not

[17:26] even say a lot of the things they're

[17:28] sharing about him are not true. They're

[17:29] manufactured. They're made up. But the

[17:30] point is they're sharing all these

[17:32] things and they're trying to sort of

[17:34] demean him or dismiss or oh yeah, they

[17:36] have this butt. Like they're like well

[17:37] it's horrible he got killed but and it's

[17:39] like why is there even a butt? There's

[17:40] no butt. The only thing you should say

[17:42] is this is horrifying and awful and

[17:43] terrible but what do you there's a butt.

[17:47] What do you think people need to do as

[17:50] Christians when they see that stuff in

[17:51] their feeds? Because it can create a lot

[17:53] of anger and frustration in in us when

[17:55] we see those kinds of reactions. Well,

[17:58] one is if you see somebody do that, I

[18:00] think appropriately respond by

[18:03] challenging them in the proper context

[18:05] that they're coming from. Okay? I did

[18:07] that actually recently to a pastor who

[18:09] just reposted something and it was a

[18:11] black leader that said, "Hey, look, I

[18:13] know you Christians, you know, are are

[18:16] saddened and we we're sad for anyone's

[18:18] loss because we're all made in the image

[18:19] of God, but let's not forget what this

[18:21] man stood for." and he proceeded to put

[18:24] quotes out there of what Charlie

[18:26] apparently had said and yet he took it

[18:29] out of context just like we saw days

[18:31] after the assassination of Charlie. You

[18:32] even have guys like Stephen King, you

[18:34] know, really quickly on X saying, "Uh,

[18:37] sorry I took out of context and then

[18:38] move on, right?" You know, because he

[18:40] didn't want to get, you know, attacked,

[18:41] if you will, but there was nobody

[18:43] attacking. We made challenge. So, that's

[18:44] number one. Number two is notice the

[18:47] terminology that we see often times,

[18:49] whether it be on CNN or other platforms

[18:50] that says, "Well, Charlie was, you know,

[18:52] it was his rhetoric. It was his

[18:54] rhetoric." But they never tell you what

[18:57] he actually said. That right there is an

[19:00] indication. Don't give it the light of

[19:02] day. Don't be bothered by that. But

[19:06] thirdly, and more importantly, go out

[19:09] there, there's plenty of content that

[19:12] Charlie put together. Grab some of his

[19:15] stuff. Reshare it. When he was asked, "I

[19:18] got 30 seconds to live. What do you tell

[19:21] me?" He says, "Well, you're about to

[19:22] meet your your judge, and I want to make

[19:24] sure that you know Christ as your Lord

[19:26] and Savior, who came and was your

[19:28] substitute, right? who atoned for your

[19:29] sins, the imputation of Christ, and you

[19:32] need to put your faith and trust in him.

[19:33] Romans 10:9 and 10, he clearly

[19:35] articulate articulated the gospel. When

[19:38] you had African-Americans, when you had,

[19:40] you know, whatever other type of

[19:41] ethnicity would come and even if they

[19:44] disagree with him vehemently, he never

[19:46] belittled them. He never dehumanized

[19:49] them. So, I would challenge anyone out

[19:51] there to find anything that our dear

[19:54] brother did that was inhumane. And the

[19:56] last thing is this. Let's also extend

[19:59] grace. Let me throw a fourth one in

[20:00] there if you don't mind, Billy. This is

[20:02] free, free of charge here. But you know

[20:04] what? He was young and he really until

[20:07] like the last six years really got like

[20:10] on fire for the Lord. All of us are

[20:12] going through a period or level or stage

[20:15] of sanctification, no matter our age.

[20:17] Just because you and I are older doesn't

[20:20] mean we're wiser. Hopefully, we live

[20:22] more life, but we depend more on God

[20:25] than ever before. So if there were some

[20:27] things that Charlie said out of context

[20:29] or he misrepresented something in

[20:31] scripture, whatever, give him grace. He

[20:34] was in the process like all of us in

[20:36] sanctification. That's why he relied on

[20:38] Jack Hibbs of the of the world, Rob

[20:41] McCoys of the world, Frank Turks of the

[20:43] world, you Billy, myself, he tapping our

[20:46] friend Lucas to take over the faith. He

[20:48] he wanted people who were smarter and

[20:51] wiser and older than him in aspects of

[20:53] his life that he can go to and he relied

[20:55] on that. That's another lesson we can

[20:58] learn about him. So I think

[20:59] >> he was always approachable. He was

[21:01] always responsive. He was always, you

[21:03] know, somebody said to me yesterday, I

[21:06] didn't know he followed you on Instagram

[21:07] and I said, you know, I didn't realize

[21:08] that either, but we had followed each

[21:09] other for years. I I thought what he

[21:11] did, what he was doing was compelling,

[21:13] even when I was in that position of I'm

[21:14] going to watch it from afar, you know.

[21:16] Um, but when I dove into it, really

[21:18] understanding who this person was, and I

[21:22] wish I had more time to understand who

[21:23] that person was, and and had spent more

[21:26] time really with TP Faith. And I I look,

[21:31] what's going to happen next is going to

[21:33] be fascinating to watch what God does,

[21:35] but we've already seen what God has used

[21:37] this evil for, right? Somebody committed

[21:39] an evil act. They did something horrific

[21:41] and it's painful and it's awful, but

[21:44] we're watching God move in ways that are

[21:47] just would have been unimaginable, you

[21:50] know, a month ago even. And so, any

[21:53] final words from you before we before we

[21:55] go?

[21:56] >> Yeah, I would just tell people when you

[21:58] when you have that debate, which I think

[21:59] is a debate we can have, but the

[22:01] evidence is clear. This was a martyr.

[22:03] This was an example of someone who lived

[22:04] out his faith and he lived it out for

[22:06] Christ. But I'm I'm reminded of 2

[22:08] Corinthians 4:8-9. And this is what I

[22:09] want to leave with your people. We are

[22:11] afflicted in every way but not crushed.

[22:14] Perplexed but not driven to despair.

[22:16] Persecuted but not forsaken. Struck down

[22:19] but not destroyed. What we saw at

[22:22] Charlie's funeral, which was more of a

[22:24] celebration, was somebody who was

[22:25] afflicted. He was crushed. He was

[22:27] perplexed. He was persecuted. He died

[22:29] for his faith. But you know what? He's

[22:31] in the loving arms of Jesus. And all of

[22:33] us as followers of Jesus Christ, are we

[22:35] willing to lay down our life as our

[22:38] savior did for us?

[22:41] >> That is powerful. Jason Jimenez, as

[22:44] always, appreciate you taking the time

[22:46] today. Thank you buddy.