We have an amazing guest. Don't let the appearance fool you. This guy's a master theologian. He's going to blow you away. I'm going to be here all the way up until we get to Q&A. As soon as we get to Q&A, I'm going to actually do a line change with Lucas Miles, who runs TPUSA Faith, cuz I I have an opportunity to go speak at multiple churches in South Korea and Japan this weekend um to bring God's word to Asia. And so, I got to go catch a flight to Asia. Uh and so, but I'm gonna be here for most of the night. I just want to say that uh when I dash out, you guys know that um I'm doing my best to spread God's word all across the planet. But everybody, Nathan here, the reason I love Nathan is he is as biblical, as scriptural as it gets, but he kind of like walks into a room and people immediately thinks he's a woke pastor. Don't let appearances fool you. You'll see what I mean. Nathan, come on out here. The legendary Nathan Pinocchio. >> So, Nathan, uh welcome to Phoenix. >> Thank you. It's good to be here. And um so Nathan, why don't you introduce yourself? You are in the kind of the midst of a battle for the American church right now and you're fighting deconstructionism. You're fighting all this wokeism and you really understand where it comes from. Please introduce yourself. >> Yeah. So I'm a Canadian. Um don't hold that against me. >> I'm so happy to be here. Pastor Tommy, you're an idol for me. Um in the best way. I don't mean in a a negative way. Um and um it's just a a privilege to be here. Um yeah, I I my dad's a pastor in Canada. Um he just turned his church over after, you know, decades of of amazing service. Um I went to Bible college in Portland, Oregon. Um youth pastored for my dad for a couple years. Then I moved to New York and was a part of a church there. Um when I was in New York, I had this idea, what if we made Bible college cheap or affordable rather? but but you know but awesome and uh and not woke. Um one of the concerns that I've had with a lot of Bible colleges is that uh it trends very liberal and progressive. Um and so we created this platform called Theosu and it's like 10 bucks a month. We have um hundreds of of trainers on there that teach. We're we're conservative. We're unapologetically um theologically conservative and we all uh believe in the gifts and the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm I'm a I'm a dy in the bull Pentecostal. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. You don't have to apologize. This is what I love about Freedom Night. We have we have five point Calvinists and swinging from the chandelier Pentecostals and totally >> we all love Jesus here. And Nathan, so why is it that the church the last decade especially has become so woke? Define the term. Where does it come from and why is it happening? >> Yeah. So defining woke I guess is is is a that's like juggling um eight balls. But I think um it's not something that's happened in the last 10 years. It's probably something that's happened in the last 150 years. U it began with the enlightenment and and people questioning um the word the way that Satan did and um and then kind of twisting it the way that Satan did and sort of removing all of its power. You know, doubting the miracles um you know, you end up with when you start to tear the miracles out of the Bible, you end up with just the maps. Um and um and the maps aren't all that helpful. And uh and so uh and then I think there's a major shift in the church about 40 years ago, maybe 30 years ago with the seeker sensitive movement, which I think started in a good place where it was we want to reach more people. Um but my dad's generation, my dad was a 17-year-old when he met Jesus, uh through a teen challenge, uh coffee house, and he was a drugged out hippie. Yeah. and and he got uh he got he you know filled with the Holy Spirit and he went to a Pentecostal church and and he got super involved there and his life just completely changed and he experienced Jesus. You know, it's one thing to know about Jesus, it's another thing to experience Jesus. And um so the the church that my dad was raised in was a church where like how do we get God to come to church? But it's almost like it switched a number of years ago where it was how do we get people to come to church? And for me, I think that has been um a Trojan horse because when you're thinking when all you're thinking about is how do I please this person in the pew and not how do I please the Lord, you're going to have problems. Um and it's a giant setup, you know, for inviting all kinds of bad doctrines. >> Yeah. I I would the the best way to explain woke to your friends is call something unfair or unjust until you control it. >> So call something racist till you're in charge. Right. >> So call something sexist till you're in charge. >> And it's a means to power. >> Totally. >> So wokeism is a lot of things in particular. >> One though that you've really been able to pinpoint Nathan brilliantly is deconstructionism. So deconstructionism everybody is unfortunately growing in a lot of seminaries. Uh it's this idea that we need to take apart the essence of the word of God that we need to ask did God really say that? Is that really what the word says? Basically challenging biblical authority and scriptural inherency using the same analytical tools that they use on American history that they use on American founding documents. So what for example we don't like the 1619 project right we don't like CRT and we you know we fought against that but those same analytical tools are now used in Christian schools explain more Nathan >> yeah that's really good um really good taking notes um yeah essentially uh you know Marxism kind of comes in and people buy into that um you know there's everything is about power and everything is about these power plays. And so we have people that are that are swimming in this stuff. They come into our churches and so when they read the Bible, they don't they're not reading the Bible as the authoritative word of God. They're problematizing the Bible. And then we start to realize I'll give you a great example. Um, and every deconstructing influencer that I follow on Instagram, because I follow them to learn, you know, what they're saying and stuff, they all basically do the same thing. They love hippie Jesus. Um, and they hate the Apostle Paul and uh, so it's so, you know what I mean? >> It's really interest. No, that's Keep going. >> Yeah. So their version of Jesus and and they kind of collapse Jesus too because the truth of the matter is that if you read Jesus in the book of John, I mean he'll cut you. He'll pull the switchblade out. You know what I mean? He's like he's not always carrying a lamb, you know, like he he he, you know, he'll pour some >> whip literally to Exactly. He'll he'll Exactly. He he pours a little crowd thinner out every now and then, you know, and people walk away. You know, the rich young ruler, he's like, you know, he's like, "How do I how do Well, you you know, money has a control on your life and you're going to need to get rid of it and he just walks away. I mean, today's pastor, if I was a pastor today, I'd chase him and invite him to a Kingdom Builder's breakfast, you know. Um, Jesus, we're having John Maxwell next Sunday. Come, you know. Um, I love John Maxwell, by the way. I'm just saying like Jesus just let these people walk, you know. Um, so um, so so my thought is is you can't pit, you know, scripture against scripture. And Jesus, they have these collapsed 2D versions of Jesus that that you know, the Jesus that calls you to deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow him doesn't exist. It's just Jesus that's that's this socialist Jesus. Um, you know, and and they they they say these every everything is through their their their Marxist binaries, you know, so Jesus did this for these types of people. Jesus did this for these types of people. Um, and and then pitting Jesus against against the rest of scripture. And this is how you know Jesus is the savior of the world because everyone wants to claim him. >> The communists want him. Even the Muslims want him, >> right? >> Everyone wants Jesus. >> Yeah. >> Mind you, we don't want any of their stuff. We don't want Muhammad. Like, we don't want Marks. >> We're good. We got Jesus. >> Yeah. >> But they know there's something about Jesus that is special, unique, extraordinary, transcendent, and divine. >> And that's a very important thing. Almost every sinister movement in the history of the planet has tried to claim Jesus as their own. >> Yeah. >> And that's because there's something there. Now, but Nathan, let's go a step deeper. How does deconstructionism manifest? How can people start to spot it when when either may maybe in a Christian podcast or in a sermon? I can give an example and then you can. Well, they'll start to be like, well, we don't really need the Old Testament to understand the New Testament. That's a that's a phenomenon that might be growing. or they'll try to apply modern secular humanist worldview onto scripture. And if you listen carefully, you'll realize that they're imposing their own modern values over scripture, not submitting to God's God's word. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. 100%. Like I said, like the first thing for me, I when somebody starts to pit Jesus against Paul, right there, you have a deconstructionist. They all do it. It's their favorite thing to do. um they like to make Jesus out to be, for example, there was this one lady I followed on Twitter and she believed that Jesus came, you know, to he's an he was there to to to liberate people um and to free people from oppression. That was the big thing. And so I began to just ask her more questions, you know, like if Jesus was was a liberator and he was against oppression, um he didn't do a very good job, did he? You know what I mean? like and and as I began to question her more more about this, you know, for example, like uh she would make this claim like Jesus elevated, you know, women. And I'm like, he certainly did. He certainly elevated women. But I just said like, well, you know, Judas disappeared. You know, that was a great chance for Jesus to make women an apostle and he didn't. Um so, so don't you have a bone to pick with him? And yeah, actually I do have a bone to pick with him about that. You know, so it's like, >> but do you see, let me interrupt, that's her thinking she's better than Jesus. >> And at that moment, the whole game gets exposed. >> Yeah. >> Cuz she's imposing other morality on top of the scripture. >> And that's the kicker. >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Demanding that Jesus be this oppressor that would that would meet her modern criteria. And so, you know, I I believe that women can preach and lead and pastor and all that, but I'm just saying though that like using using Jesus as your women's lib, it he doesn't go far enough for you. If he's overthrowing government, he doesn't go far enough for you. If he's there to, you know, to prioritize the the poor, you know, for example, a Marxist will always prioritize somebody who is poor over somebody who's rich. The rich are automatically evil and the poor are automatically a problem. Well, Jesus doesn't do that. Um, you know, and even the book of Proverbs, it's like, you know, justice has to be equal. You don't give favoritism to the rich. You don't give 19. >> Exactly. Um, so all that to say, there's a lot of ways that you can you can point it out, but I think the first the first domino that often falls is Jesus versus Paul. It's like that it's a go-to. >> That's so it's so interesting. Why why is that? Because I find them to be compliments to one another. I mean, Paul talks about the resurrection. Paul clarifies church teaching. What do they possibly find to either be contradictory or at odds with one another? >> I think that Jesus is interested in explaining who he is and in how he fulfills scripture. He's the Messiah and and he's explaining the kingdom of God. Paul's stuck with the crummy job of being a pastor, you know, and like that's really hard. And so Paul has to sort through people's personal problem. I mean the Corinthians, you know, they're swinging from the chandeliers and he's like, "What are you guys doing? It's a mess over here." And so he has to work through people's practical problems. And so as Paul is is navigating these moral dilemmas in Corinth, people are going to have a bone to pick with him because he's calling out really practical things. Whereas Jesus, you know, the the main thrust of the three years that he has is saying, "Hey, I am who Isaiah says I am." and I am who David said I am and etc and so forth. >> Now, so Nathan, there is an undoubtable surge happening of Christian interest in this country. The most popular music now for Gen Z is Christian music. Forest Frank is incred incredibly popular and growing in popularity. We are seeing even even more so than the rapper Drake, which is very very promising. And even if you listen to Forest Frank's lyrics, they're actually pretty biblically good. I mean, you could like try to nitpick, they're way better than some of the other Christian music sometimes that's gotten popular. >> Sure. >> And like legit like very good like submitting to God's will and his path for really there's something happening right now. And it's a revival that is really surprising a lot of the experts. You see, when I was young, and you guys remember this 10 years ago, we were told that it's going to be a gradual decline of Christianity and there's no reversing it, right? That it's just this whole chapter is going to close. And we saw it in the numbers. If you saw the chart, man, when Pastor Tommy started, it was, you know, 80% of people would go to, you know, church regularly and then it was 70%, and 60%, then it was 55. All of a sudden, now this last year, first time it's gone up about a point or two in the last 25 years. Almost solely because of generation Z, just so we are clear. Almost solely because of young people. Why is this happening, Nathan? >> I think that it's happening because Jesus is good at his job. [Applause] He said he said that he was going to build his church. Um, and I'm going to give away my esquetology in a sentence or two. I don't believe that Jesus is coming back for a weak anemic bride. Um, that's that's what I believe. I believe, you know, I I don't believe that we're going to need to be raptured because we suck at our job and Jesus sucks at his. I believe that Jesus is coming back for a powerhouse, glorified church. I believe that. I don't think it's it's because we're amazing. I think it's because he is. He's he said he'll build his church. He's going to build an amazing church. The gates of hell won't be able to stand against us. I mean, and and the picture is the church raiding hell, not hell coming at us, right? So, um I believe that the church is going to be glorified. And you know, we're not there yet, but we're getting there. I mean, she's on the treadmill, she's doing keto, you know, so our best days are ahead. What what lessons are you seeing of how a pastor should conduct himself in the sermons in the messaging of what is working and what is problematic as far as not just growing the church but like what are you seeing on the landscape because you deal with a lot of pastors don't you? What are your biggest sticking points to try to keep this revival going and some of the fault lines that should be avoided? So I I believe that the the the the purpose of the church is to worship God, equip the saints, and reach the world in that order. And um as a Pentecostal, I'll speak from a Pentecostal ecclesiology. I believe that like um I believe that if we're not priests, we're going to be consumers. And one of the challenges I think that the American church is facing right now is that with the advent of the seeker sensitive movement where we're thinking about how to get people to church, you can, you know, you do we do a ton of advertising and we essentially attract a lot of consumers who are there to to to, you know, to eat essentially. And when you're a consumer, you know, you're problematizing everything, you know, oh, they didn't sing Good Father, it's my favorite song. Zero Stars, you know. Um, but when you're a priest, you come to church and you bring the sacrifice of praise. And the thing is is when there's when when when you put, you know, 1 Peter 2:5 says that you yourselves as spiritual stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices. What kind? Acceptable ones to God. So when you come to church, you're not there to eat for you. You're there to minister to the Lord. You're on duty as a priest. The result is that the presence of God shows up in your church and when God is in the house, it changes people's lives. And that's how we keep revival going. So for me, [Applause] revival is is shifting the church from consumerism to a priesthood. Because if the priests come into the house and they offer the sacrifices, God, there's a principle in the Old Testament and it goes like this. Every acceptable sacrifice has a divine response. Every single time we give God what he's asked for, he always shows up in fire, right? It's amazing. So, that to me is what gets me excited about the church. And I'm seeing that shift and and and I, you know, us Pentecostals, I mean, we're we're all about the presence of God, but I believe that evangelicals are. I believe that Catholics are. And I believe that there's a shift that's going from how, you know, the cons drawing consumers to let's teach people to be priests. When people come in, they're they're going to experience the byproduct, which is the presence of God. It'll wreck people. People don't need to come to church to get David Gogggins. They can get that on Instagram, you know, like they don't need TED talks. They can already get that. What people need is encounter with Jesus Christ, you know, and the power of the Holy Spirit. >> Amen. What? So I I I totally agree. I actually think paradoxically that's why the Catholic Church is growing because in the Catholic own approach and I have such great respect for Catholics. I know we have some in the audience here and I want us to actually dive into our agreements not our dis disagreements whatever that we all we all know those. I actually think though that the reason why Catholicism is growing for young people especially is that there is an emphasis on the holiness and the experience with God and there is an an emphasis on the aesthetically and the do you agree with that? >> I'll tell you right now I think the most beautiful thing about the Catholic Church is the mass and rather the Eucharist. So Catholics don't go to mass to to get you know a TED talk. They go there to encounter Jesus through communion. I think that's beautiful. Um, Baptists, for example, they go to church to encounter Christ through the preached word. John Piper says that the primary way of gazing upon Christ is through his words. I love that. So, when we're emphasizing how do we encounter God, that's when the church is winning. Um, and I know that we do that in different ways. Um, but but I think that that the Catholics >> What are what are some of the other ways? Worship, obviously, singing, prayer, repentance. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Like exactly. So, uh prayer, um gathering, uh the preaching of the word, communion, uh praise, giving your tithes and your offerings. I mean, that's literally you being the priest. You're offering, Lord, this is a symbol of my life, and I'm giving it to you in obedience to you. And I know that when I do this, you show up in my life. Fire's coming on the altar of my life. When I offer this to you, it's like really holy. It's really, really amazing. So, um all those different ways. And the church is meant to facilitate worship and that's I think what we're going to continue to do. >> What are on the horizon some of the great threats to the church? We obviously identify deconstructionism, progressivism, wokeism. Do you think they've grown in the last couple of years or are they decreasing in number? I I feel as if that's becoming less and less fashionable. I could name at least 10 major pastors in the last couple of years that are coming coming in our direction. I mean, we here at Freedom Night, thanks to Dream City Church, we've been doing this since 2021. I mean, we were very early adopters, but Nathan, are are they increasing? Are they decreasing? Like, give us a little status report. >> Is deconstruction increasing? Is that >> or progressivism in the church? >> Yeah, look, I I think that there's obviously a battle. Um, and I think that there's been a battle since the church's inception, you know, like there was there were external and internal threats. Um we had we were fighting heresies for the first four 500 years of church history.nosticism and and and mysticism. >> Absolutely. Exactly. So um I think that there's we're always going to have these you know Jesus even said like there's going to be um you know people will have itching ears and and there just when Paul's talking to Timothy he's just saying check your doctrine, check your doctrine. Check your doctrine. Check your doctrine. So, uh, there's there's all kinds of people that are going to be, um, they're going to have mythologies and philosophies, and they're going to be trying to take power, etc. So, I think that we're always going to be dealing with these types of of existential problems, theological problems, and um, it's it's it is what it is. There's going to be people that are going to claim to be the Messiah and they're going to be you know claiming to you know like the apostles and they're going to be uh you know when Paul is writing to defend his apostilhip there's going to be people that are going to be claim claim claim to be this and claim to be that. So I don't think that it's deconstruction isn't alarming is on trend for what's been happening the last 2,000 years. That's what I would just say. Let's close with a threat that I talk a lot about that I think the church needs to more educate ourselves. I'll put I'll use the third person singular here like the the plural. Um that we need to educate ourselves better and that is Islam. >> And I I don't think we're quite equipped and understand the spiritual ramifications here. I mean if you go online everyone wants to talk about Israel all the time. Fine. But like, okay, why don't we talk about Islam? Actually, the religion of a billion people that many of whom are taking over the entire European continent and we're about to have a Muslim mayor of New York City and we have no idea what they believe or what it is. And so, should Christians care about this, Nathan? I mean, some pastors say, "Well, they believe different stuff than we believe." And how should we think about Islam? >> Yeah. I mean, I think that it would you should read how the first thousand years of pastors and thinkers in the in in the church like the Petristics, how they thought about Islam. It's actually pretty shocking because Islam hasn't really changed all that much. It's still very militant. It's it's I think that u that dismissing it as just another religion is naive. It is it is incredibly politically and ideologically and militantly driven um in a way that like for example Buddhism is just not um so not all religions are the same. So it's naive to kind of classify well it's a religion and it just goes in this clause. It's like Islam is not like that. It does not behave like that. >> Is it a religion? >> I would say that it would be naive to just to compare it to Buddhism to compare it to Jehovah's Witnesses. I think it is a political ideology that it's it's it's a religion political ideology that is inseparable from those two things and it's militant >> and and this is the this is the most important thing we as Christians we are able to separate our church and state in fact sometimes we want more Christians to get involved in the state but there is no mosque and state separation in Islam >> correct >> it does not exist >> that teaching has never existed and therefore this is why so many Muslims run for political office because not only are they interested, they're commanded to try to institute what they call the ummah, which is the covering of the earth. >> Correct. >> And there is a Islamic illiteracy that we have in the west. And honestly, shame on us as Christians for not talking about this more >> and at the core this is an immigration issue. >> Yeah. >> But Nathan, I'm told by Christians, we must open up our borders to all people at all times, no matter what because that's what Jesus would do, >> right? Yeah. So, I mean, yeah. Where did Jesus say that? Right. That's you know I I think there's there's this misunderstanding about uh who like neighbors and families, you know. So um for example, like I love Japan. I love how Japanese it is. I love how foreign it is, you know, like they do their own thing over there and it's wonderful. If you ever been there, it's just like you're just it's it's like it's incredible, you know, like their food and the way that they organize themselves on elevators and escalators and, you know, they're just there. So I would never want to live there, but I love visiting there and I appreciate their culture and the cultural differences, but I don't want to be Japanese. I don't want to live in Japan. Does that make sense? So, I think that one of the issues is that people think that if you don't want to be it, you hate it. And and that that's one of the issues is that people are like, "Well, America needs to be everything." It's like, "What if America is American?" You know, like what? That's okay. It's why do Americans have to hate their own culture and destroy their own culture? See, multi I'm Canadian and I understand what multiculturalism is. And multiculturalism is the death of the dominant culture. That's exactly what it is. >> Exactly. Like I don't recognize my hometown anymore. In fact, when I go back to Canada, I don't Do you know what it means to be Canadian? Nothing. It means nothing to be a Canadian now. Justin Trudeau, our our the you know, the clown that was in there for 10 years that destroyed my country. Um he called Canada the first postnational country. Meaning that the only thing that we have in common is that we have nothing in common. That's what it mean. That's that's >> so good. And it just destroys the social fabric. Um you think that people would get along but it's the exact opposite. They don't get along. People don't work together. People are the Hindus are hating the Sikhs. The Sikhs are hating the Muslims. The Muslim. It is just absolute and total chaos right now in my country. Nobody wants to work together. So um you know I I'm not a fan of multiculturalism. I'm I I'm a fan of multithnicism. I think that that's that's beautiful. But I think that like Christians should build Christian societies and if you're Muslim, go and build a Muslim society. But I think that there's certain worldviews that are incompatible and that's okay. >> Isn't it interesting? There are 50 plus Muslim majority countries and yet Muslims so badly want to come here and turn this into another one. It's because it is a conquering ideology that masquerades itself as a religion. >> Correct. >> And and that needs to be repeatedly said. >> Yeah. And again, this is not about hating individual Muslims. Literally, my primary care doctor here in Arizona, Zudi Jasser, like the sweetest guy ever, is a practicing Muslim who's trying to dradicalize Islam. We all know individual Muslims who we care for, we minister to. We're talking about an ideology, >> right? >> And you must be able to separate an ideology from precious individuals that we care about because they're always going to try to conflate those two. Yeah. >> Right. We should care for those individuals and we should minister to them and we should have great relationships and be neighborly and be Christlike to them and we can see really goodness in a lot of those people. Yeah. >> But don't tell me that Minneapolis is going in the right direction. >> Right. >> Like I'm sorry. That's that's that's not true. Don't tell me that New York City is going in the right direction. Right. That they're about to have a Muslim Marxist mayor in America's largest city. And we as Christians, and we'll kind of close on this, Nathan, Western civilization is Christendom. It is an inheritance and a birthright brought to you by Christians, >> right? >> And when we seek to establish that, we seek to actually have what makes us what quote unquote the dominant culture. And it's not racial, it's not ethnic, but it is cultural. And that's what's important. And you must assimilate towards that norm when you come here. And immigration without assimilation is an invasion. >> Correct. >> And we should not put up with it. >> Yeah. >> Nathan, final thought and then I'm going to bring Lucas in for a line change here. >> Okay. Yeah. Jeez, that was so good. >> Yeah. I just I just I just totally agree. I I I think um we have to be able to separate, you know. So, who is my neighbor? My neighbor is my Muslim doctor. And my neighbor is, you know, a family, you know, that is here in from Mexico. and they're begging and they need food and and I want to take care of them and that's my Christian duty to take care of them and as a Christian I need to separate um you know my my my you know my duty to to to take care of the person in front of me regardless of where they're from you know what they're doing from these um these corporate ideologies um you know like you have to separate the individual from >> from a worldview so I'm going to bring Lucas everybody pray for me I got to to Asia. I have 14 hour flight ahead of me. God bless you guys. And Lucas, come on up here. Thank you guys. Let's do some questions. See you, buddy. Love you, dude. All right. How we doing? We had a great conversation. I don't know, Nate and I have just gotten to know each other. We've we've hung out a couple times now, but I just like this guy and I love just the ideas that you bring and I'm glad that you're like on our team. Like I was just sitting over there thinking that I'm like I'm just impressed by you and and the way you think about church and ecclesiology and how we pursue Christ and I think that you know the body of Christ is better because you're in it. So thank you for being here. >> Thank you. >> All right. So, um, we're going to move to some Q&A and obviously we got a lot of topics tonight. Uh, so, as Charlie mentioned, my name is Lucas Miles. I'm the senior director at TPSA Faith. I'm honored to be here with you guys. I was here once before before I was on staff uh with TPSA and I was uh um here when uh Charlie brought me out. I think it was I don't know 20 24 maybe something like that. But it's great to be back. I love your pastors and uh uh I got to play some golf with Luke and Tommy and and others and Brad. Um and and and Joe, it was such a good time. And so it's so good to see you guys. We pray for your church regularly. I pastor a church in South Bin, Indiana. I commute back and forth uh between uh the Midwest and here. Uh you'll see me more probably in February when it's cold uh back there. And so I've got a pretty good situation right now. So I got that figured out. Uh but it's it's great to be here. So once we're ready, we'll go ahead and take a few questions and uh we'll we'll open this up and you could fire whatever you got here at Nathan and and if he doesn't like it, he'll just make me take it. So that's how we'll do this. >> All right. Um you mentioned uh talking a little bit about your esquetology. Um and you got me curious. Uh I was kind of wondering how you think uh artificial intelligence factors into that because that reminds me so much of Genesis 11 and the Tower of Babel. In Genesis 11, there's this um there's this the text sort of makes fun of the builders of Babel. Um because the builders of Babel thought that they had the latest technology and so the author is saying, you know, they were using, you know, um bricks for stone, you know, and like what they were building wasn't going to last as long as like for example the pyramids did, right? Um, and I think that what can happen is we can think too highly of oursel. Um, we we put too much trust in technology. This is one of the things that I tell a lot of younger like Gen Z millennial church builders. It's like, dude, build the church the way the old dudes build the church. Just just like build on the presence of God, you know? Like Tik Tok is just bricks from the Tower of Babel, you know? Like AI isn't going to grow your church. You know what's going to grow your church? The Holy Spirit is going to grow your church, right? Like um so that's kind of how I I think. I don't think that AI is going to be the antichrist. I don't I'm not concerned about those those types of things. Um, obviously there are some things that are a little bit freaking me out about AI and I think that we should all be a little bit freaked out about AI, you know, and like imagine, you know, you know, people people using AI and and scamming people and and, you know, in facial recognition and all the data breaches and all these types of things. I think it's a tool and it depends on whose hands that tool is in. Um but um but I I don't think that it we need to be necessarily you know thinking that AI is um you know the antichrist or something like that that makes sense. You know it's just a tool. I I think that it's really important that that you know the way we think about this first off that AI you know chat GPT is not the Holy Spirit and I it's I think I'm seeing a lot of people I mean I had a guy here recently that told me he was making some major decisions and and it was kind of like you know and he's a believer and all the decisions were just processed through chat and I get the I understand the temptation but like we still have to like involve the Holy Spirit in this process. Um, with that said, I think it's a new kind of assembly line and I think that, you know, Christians tend to be the last onboarders of new technology. We're always weary of like every new thing that comes out and I think like as Christians, we should be leading the charge into new things and finding ways to utilize that as a tool. It's a new hammer. It's a new screwdriver. It's a new thing to do your job better, faster, etc. And if you make it something that it's not, it can get really, you know, uh, out of place, I think, very quickly. But I think there's balance, you know, in that. So, uh, awesome. All right, next one up. >> Hi. Uh, thank you guys for both being here. First of all, um, my question revolves around like the last 5 10 minutes of the conversation. I have a co-orker who's of Mexican heritage. Uh, he's American. Um, but he and I were having a conversation about um, immigration, illegal immigration, and he said, "If Jesus came over the border illegally right now, would you deport him?" and I had an answer for him, but I just wanted to see what both of you guys would have said. >> Would you deport Jesus? >> Yes. So, so firstly, I I don't think that Jesus would would would go illegally. Like so for example like the flight from the flight from um the the flight you know from from Nazareth to to Egypt was uh from one Roman territory to another Roman territory. So it was it was a legal you know passage if that makes sense. And he was escaping a ruler but he was doing so legally. So Jesus wasn't violating any any orders you know. So, um, so all that to say, Jesus, you I think you have to be honest about the question that you're asking. And Jesus, I don't think, well, he he didn't do that. So, it's kind of like asking if, you know, if Jesus ran somebody over with a car, would you send him to jail? Like, would you send Jesus to jail? Like, well, yes, I'd send Jesus to jail if he ran my grandmother over with a car. You know what I mean? like so so you know I think that um a funny question deserves a funny answer. >> I I I think you know with that it's it's important to remember first off that you know which which Nathan you know uh addressed I think spot on is that Jesus was not an illegal immigrant. Jesus did not you know illegally cross one border into another nation. All the travel there was legal travel. It was all Rome you know occupied at that time in Roman provinces. uh in in the Hebrew and there's a great book on this uh called Wise Welcome. I'll make a plug for that. Uh it's a it's a it's a thin book. We've given it out at some of our pastor's events in the past. And it points out in this book that there are there's three different Hebrew words for what it would be translated as foreigner or stranger or sojourer um in the in the text. And so when you see times where it's like welcome the sojourer, the word there is for somebody who has the intention to come into the country with the purpose of assimilation. So you know I I'm in favor if Nathan is intending to come into our country for the purpose of assimilation to become an American, I'm in favor of welcoming him. So let's welcome the Canadian stranger here. Right? Uh but but there's a different word for somebody when it says, you know, if if a stranger comes into the camp and and they're getting close to the tabernacle, there's a different instruction where they're actually told to, you know, to war against them and to protect themselves against them. And that's a different word there. In our language, it just says this, it's always stranger, it's always sojourer, and you don't get kind of the richness of the text. But there is a Hebrew uh framework for immigration, I think, that we can see in the Old Testament. And it is it is nothing like what is being presented to us you know by the progressive left and and you know progressive church in that sense. >> Good evening gentlemen. Thank you so much for listening to my question. So I actually have a two-part question. Oh my name is Rocky by the way like the boxer and my first question Nathan is for you is because you come from a Pentecostal church and background. I recently just got introduced to the Pentecostal world and I had a very specific question about prophecy. um I got into this church where there's there um the head pastor, he's a prophet. And so I'm trying to really understand really what that means because it's something that I haven't really experienced besides just reading it in the Bible. So I just wanted to get your perspective on that. And then the second part of my question is about a topic we mentioned earlier about deconstructionism. What is the fine line between deconstructionism and exploration or seeking to understand? Sometimes I feel like when I'm reading, I have very strong faith, but sometimes when I'm reading, I want to seek to understand. I'm asking questions, cross- referencing things, chatging things and whatnot. And I feel like maybe I get too much into it where I'm like, am I pulling this apart too much, but I also don't want to just take things at surface level because I don't want to just be a regurgitator. I want to understand my faith. I want to stand strong and confident in my faith. So, I want to seek to understand, but I also don't want to be going too far where I'm maybe pulling apart my faith so much where I'm not being like a child of having uh childlike faith. >> Yeah. So, I would say Rocky, the hand of God is on you in a powerful way. And I noticed it when when you when you stepped up to the mic, you have an incredible um hunger and desire for the word. And I think that the Lord is doing something in your life in the last three years where you've just come on fire. And there's been things that you have been going through, you've gone through. You'd look back at your life 10 years ago and you wouldn't even recognize yourself. But let me tell you, in 10 years from now, you're going to look back and you like, "Wow, God did something." like God's calling you to something greatness, some incredible things. And I really believe that the Lord answers your prayers and you need to continue to pray and and press into prayer because God's going to answer your prayers. You're an incredible woman of God. You're a powerful woman of God. And I see you preaching. I think there's a gift on your life to preach the word. And that's what's happening. The Holy Spirit has given you this hunger for the word of God. And you just watch as you as you go down deep into the word and as you determine your depth, God's going to determine your breadth. He's going to take you places. I just know that. And that's prophecy. Awesome. Prophecy is encouraging somebody. When you read 1 Corinthians 14:1 to5, it's stir up, build up, cheer up. And you can just do that. You can encourage somebody in the Lord. You can stir them up in their faith and they leave with a smile on their face. That's what it means to build the church up, you know, building people up in in the love of the Holy Spirit. Number one. Number two, with with respect to deconstruction. Um there's we have a word in the English language and it's called learning and it's a great word. And when you learn, you leave older batter bad ideas or ideas that aren't so good and you learn other ones. You take, you know what I you replace them. So, I don't think that deconstruction is a great term to replace learning. You know, like when I went to Bible college, I didn't deconstruct. I just had some bad thoughts and I and then I learned some better thoughts about God. I think that deconstruction is typically marked by radical skepticism about the word of God, radical skepticism about the church, radical skepticism about the history of the church. And a lot of this stuff is given to people uh by others who basically just hate God and hate the church. Um so those are my thoughts. But I think that the way to think about once again the think the way to think about prophecy is it's encouraging people in their future. I like to separate it in from the difference between forthtelling and foretelling. So forth this the spirit of prophecy prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. And so I've was forthtelling the goodness of God that's on in that's clearly on your life. It's easy. It's as plain as day. Foretelling is like, you know, when you're telling people that, you know, you're going to be a a a missionary to Jamaica, you know, and that's a kind of a different level of prophecy that I do believe that capital P prophets with a Christ gift have. Um, but I think that most local church prophecy is when you encourage somebody in the Lord and there your holy the Holy Spirit is leading you and it's a gift that you grow in. But I think it's really lifegiving and and once again there's something special on your life you're called to preach in Jesus name. Awesome. Awesome. Love it. Appreciate that. >> Thank you. And I'll say this about deconstruction is that, you know, you have um, you know, Jesus says these words that he's going to tear down the temple, but then he says he's going to rebuild it in three days. And I think that, you know, when you look at deconstructionism, what they're doing is they're tearing down ideologies, but they never actually go back and rebuild them and establish them back in faith. So, you're just left in this place of rubble and skepticism and doubt. Uh, let's go over here. Had time for a couple more. >> Hi, my name is Colton Richardson. I'm nervous. I've never spoken in front of this many people. >> I'm nervous, too, so don't worry about it. >> Yeah, I'm terrified. >> Okay. >> And I'm sweating up here. >> I appreciate all that you guys do. You're a great influences. I watch you guys all the time. Basically, as a Christian of two years, I wonder because I have a friend who basically say someone lives their lives ethically and morally sound. What's a theological of position on someone who or is not driven by greed, abstains from gluttony, doesn't seek revenge, does all these good things, but doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as Lord. Cuz I have a friend, he's like really morally good, but he's just like doesn't seem to comprehend the idea of a god nor the teachings of Jesus as being true. It's like what's like his fate gonna be? Because he's still like really morally right and good, but he just hasn't accepted like Jesus. >> Dude, you crushed that by the way. >> Yeah. Let's give him a hand. >> Yeah. So, you know, the gospel's crazy. Jesus tells this story um in Matthew 20 and it's about these guys who were working all day and they got this they got a day's wage but the worker went out and he hired some people that worked for an hour and he paid them the same wage as the the guy that worked all day and they started to grumble and they're like why would you make that guy equal the guy that worked an hour? We worked 14 days in the Arizona heat and we got the same wage and it's sort of like they're like it was it it felt unfair and um I don't know if you remember but do you remember the first guy that went to heaven? He was the thief on the cross. This dude was a right he was he had the stickiest fingers ever stealing everybody's stuff. They're like kill him. He's up there. He's like you caught me this time. They're like, "He's the worst. Kill him." You know, and he's up there and he's like, "I'm I'm in trouble." He He looks at Jesus and he says, "Jesus, would I'm a mess, you know. Would you would you would you remember me when you come into your kingdom?" And Jesus says, "I got you. I'm de today. You're going to be with me in paradise." And the he's the guy was a Christian for six seconds. He's like, "Thank you." You know, the first person that went to heaven was a thief on a he was a dirty old thief. It's the gospel is wild. But then you've got people like your friend who were like more like or the rich young ruler. I mean, the rich young ruler comes to Jesus and and Jesus said, "Have you been a good boy?" He's like, "I've been a a very good boy." Jesus checks his list twice. He's like, "Yeah, you have been a very good boy, but you're missing one thing." That kid wasn't able to pull the trigger on that one thing, and he walked away sad. So, heaven is a strange place, man, where there's going to be people there that were going to be like, "How did you get in here?" you know, but but they cast themselves at the mercy and the and the grace of Jesus Christ because Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father except through me." And so, we have to take Jesus's words seriously. You can live the most moral. You could help every grandmother across the street with her groceries, but there's there's going to be something lacking if you don't have Jesus, you know? And so, um, and the truth of the matter is that the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So, even though your friend might look like the most moral person, you know, he's there's some dirt there and Jesus knows because he looks past the, you know, the the external and he looks into the heart, you know, and the heart is where all the ugly stuff is, you know. I think you have a great opportunity to minister to this friend of yours, you know, and I think that uh well, all of us here, let's commit to saying a prayer for for his friend. I think that, you know, and just even for your confidence, you know, that God's building something in you and I think that this is a tremendous opportunity to share the gospel there with him. >> I love to worship the Lord. And uh sometimes in church it seems like a worship leader um thinks they're putting on a concert rather than leading us in worship. >> Not at this church. >> Uh I'm not sure what a as a parishioner what you might suggest. It's kind of hard to say something, but we're missing our opportunity if we're not using that time together to worship the Lord and grow closer to the Lord. >> That is a great observation. And sometimes sometimes I think that sometimes you're right. Sometimes we are guilty, you know, of of putting on a concert um rather than inviting the priests to bring their sacrifices. Um and sometimes the song selection that you know that we use doesn't facilitate the priesthood to bring the sacrifice of praise. So we need songs that that that facilitate that. Uh we need worship leaders to to understand their calling. You know that they're not the worship team that the congregation is the worship team and they're just facilitating your job as the priesthood to bring the sacrifices. So, I understand that that frustration and it it can be real. You just need to pray for your church, pray for your team, pray for that worship leader and just say, "Lord, just bless him, help them, you know, and and and wreck them, Jesus. Wreck them with your Holy Spirit in a fresh way." >> Um, you talked a little bit earlier about like remaining sensitive to people who have different worldviews than you do. Um, and Charlie talked about how his do his doctor um is Muslim and I was just wondering like what are some tactics? How can we continue to reach the people around us and share the gospel on an individual level instead of just attacking worldviews also like holding tr holding fast to the truth while also caring about the person in front of us like we were talking about earlier. >> We are living in a time where there are so many different views. um when you and there's so many different varieties, you know, I was just in Las Vegas. We were shooting some uh man on the street videos and I had probably let's say 40% of the people that I stopped told me they were a Christian. And probably somewhere between 30 to 50% of those people when I said, "Well, what do you believe happens after we die?" They told me that they believed in reincarnation. And so I'm going, okay, like the church has a lot of work to do if that's the state of confusion that we're in. And so like you could pull anybody out there and and you know, uh I'm going to assume everybody in this room has a solid orthodox framework or you were drugged here by somebody who who has one. But like if we just go out in the world, you just have no idea what you're going to run into. And so I think that, you know, uh, in, you know, and Nathan and I share in common that we both love church history and and petristic history, these early church fathers, there was there was a thing called an apology. And it wasn't like an apology like, "I'm sorry that I hurt you." It was an apology like a defense for the faith. And I really believe that we have to develop a new apology for today. We have to develop a new uh uh um you know defense for Christianity that is different than the defense even that we were using 10 years ago. And it's not that the issues have changed that much, but the different recipe of belief and and you know uh uh experience is just it's just unique today than it was a decade ago. And I think that we have to be on our toes and really develop that. And so I I wake up every day and I'm I'm just like, Lord, bring somebody in my path that I can minister to. Give me opportunities. Give me give me words of knowledge to be able to to speak into somebody's life and share with them. Uh show me how to love them, whether they're a server or a person in a cash register or an Uber driver. And I'll tell I love taking Ubers because half the time they're Muslim and half the time I'm in the car with them for 30 minutes plus and they're stuck with me and like I'm going to share the gospel with them. But not just in like this like let me tell you that this you know path of salvation but it's it's a conversation like hey what's your background? What are you about? Like where are you from? Like what are you what are you doing? And it inevitably I had a guy like say hey tomorrow can you call me again so that we can just keep this conversation going and it was in LA. I rode with this guy for probably 3 hours on my whole trip. I just kept calling him and we talked about the difference between Christianity and and uh Islam and and he was like, "Hey, would you send me some resources and references?" People are looking for Jesus. There's this amazing thing that we have this God-shaped hole in us and they want to find him. And so, I think that we have to show up believing that if we're a Christian, we actually have something that they're looking for and there's a tremendous opportunity to be able to share that with other people. You know, I lived in New York for eight years and um I was working at a church, but the a lot of the people that I hung out with were not Christians. I don't know how that worked out, but I just met some people who who weren't. I had some friends and um >> it's cuz you look like a liberal. >> Totally. Yeah. Facts. This is my Halloween outfit. I'm going as a liberal. Um, I know what it's like to have friends that are like godless pagans and um and love them and work on projects with them. Um, and I never um wasted a moment, you know, when they would because they knew exactly what I was what I was up to. >> Um, and I would I wouldn't let them get away with anything, you know, but I wouldn't shove anything in their face either. So if they brought something up or they were looking for my perspective, I would give it to them both barrels, you know, and and I was I was they knew they could count on me to weigh in on on things like that. But so I think that like we need to be um joyfully bold in our convictions, but at the same time, you know, like don't don't shove it down their throat either, but when they want it, they'll know where to come for it and give it to them. You know what I mean? Like because I think that that's what they're expect. They want to hear. I think they want to hear what do Christians believe about this. Hey, what's your take on this? You know, it's like this is it and don't hide anything. Just give it to them. You know, that's my thought.
