Ben Wittes on Alexei Navalny's Death Tucker Carlson's Grotesque Putin Propaganda and GOP Moral Collapse

[00:00] there is nothing we can do about the

[00:02] Tuckers of the world there is something

[00:05] we can do about the Mike Johnson's of

[00:07] the world and people who don't

[00:10] understand that you need to uh stand up

[00:12] to Vladimir

[00:14] Putin really need to not be in

[00:17] [Music]

[00:23] power hello and welcome to the B podcast

[00:26] I'm your host Tim Miller I'm here with a

[00:28] guy that you all know all of youve been

[00:30] around here for a while the the Trump

[00:32] trials man uh the enl of fun live stream

[00:36] veteran Brookings Foundation what else

[00:39] what else do you do Ben wit us law fair

[00:42] law fair all right law fair that's

[00:45] that's quite the buzzword these days I

[00:47] notice on true the and on and in the

[00:50] president's uh bleet he's been bleeding

[00:53] about law fair and every time he does it

[00:55] I I just attach the support law fair

[00:58] link and and share it because uh you

[01:03] know why not why not I know every time

[01:06] he jumps out I like he learned a new

[01:07] word we maybe we blame you for that a

[01:10] little bit um okay we brought you in

[01:12] kind of the last minute here because we

[01:13] have some uh pretty sad news this

[01:15] morning Lexi naly Russian President

[01:17] Vladimir Putin's most formidable

[01:19] opposition opponent uh collapsed and

[01:22] died on Friday after a walk at the polar

[01:26] wolf Arctic penal colony where he'd been

[01:28] serving a three decade jail

[01:31] term um he was 47 years old and um I I

[01:35] guess before uh I get your reaction I

[01:38] wanted to just take a moment to

[01:40] appreciate The Bravery of nval who knew

[01:43] the risks that he was taking going back

[01:46] to Russia and he talked about why he did

[01:48] that a few years ago in an interview

[01:50] with Christian Amur let's listen to that

[01:52] why do you want to go back and and I

[01:54] guess do you think you'll be safe when

[01:57] you go

[01:58] back well well I don't uh think that I

[02:02] uh can have such a privilege being safe

[02:05] in Russia but uh I have to go back

[02:07] because I don't want these you know

[02:10] groups of killer exist in Russia I don't

[02:14] want Putin uh be ruling of Russia I

[02:16] don't him being president I don't want

[02:18] him being Z of Russia because well he's

[02:21] killing people he's a reason why our the

[02:24] whole country is degradating here's the

[02:25] reason why people are so poor we have 25

[02:29] Millions people living below the poverty

[02:31] line and the whole degradation of system

[02:34] uh fortunately for me including system

[02:37] of assination of people uh he's a reason

[02:40] of that and uh I want to go back and try

[02:43] to change

[02:44] it well not a lot of Heroes these days

[02:47] uh but uh he certainly won uh Ben what's

[02:50] your reaction to the news this morning

[02:52] all right so a few things the first is

[02:55] that I will accept that it is true when

[03:00] and only when naval's people announce it

[03:03] what we have right now and it's not that

[03:06] I doubt that it's true it's that I as a

[03:08] matter of principle don't accept any

[03:11] factual representation coming from the

[03:13] Russian government what we have right

[03:16] now is a Russian government claim in

[03:18] their media that he is dead and that the

[03:22] circumstances you describe are the

[03:24] circumstances of his death uh so let let

[03:28] me start with that let's um uh wait

[03:32] until his people actually confirm it he

[03:36] has a very developed

[03:37] organization second thing is that

[03:39] assuming it is true uh we should not say

[03:43] that he collapsed and died on a walk at

[03:47] a penal colony he was murdered uh by

[03:50] Vladimir Putin um uh at a minimum by

[03:56] putting him in a in a penal colony in

[03:59] which uh death is a very likely reaction

[04:02] uh uh probability we've all been

[04:05] expecting his uh death uh for a while um

[04:11] uh but uh you know the persistent

[04:14] allegations that he was being poisoned

[04:16] or that he was being

[04:18] mistreated uh uh have been such that we

[04:22] shouldn't default to the passive voice

[04:26] um or to make him the subject

[04:30] rather than the object of the sentence

[04:32] this is somebody who is uh other than

[04:35] volodimir zalinski uh the single most

[04:38] important enemy of Vladimir Putin in the

[04:41] world who voluntarily returned

[04:44] himself uh to Russia after having been

[04:48] poisoned once um remember he was the

[04:52] reason he was abroad was that he had

[04:55] been uh Nova chucked um uh in a fashion

[05:00] that he then you know revealed how it

[05:03] was done um uh and so um like we should

[05:09] not like if he if he was if he is dead

[05:14] um we should wait for his people to

[05:17] confirm that and we should also assume

[05:21] uh irrespective of the uh the uh stated

[05:26] cause of death his imprisonment and his

[05:29] dis appearance was an effort to kill him

[05:32] and remove him from the um from from

[05:37] Russian politics and we should uh not

[05:41] let Putin get away with that um uh by

[05:46] reflecting the causes of death as though

[05:49] they are not intentionally inflicted my

[05:52] guess is that the a this that he is dead

[05:55] is true and B that there is something

[05:57] more active here than a walk in the park

[05:59] Park um certainly certainly we're I'm

[06:02] going to be sending this video as a

[06:05] sternly worded letter to our friends at

[06:06] the reuter's wire wire with a lesson

[06:08] about the passive voice um uh nal's wife

[06:12] uh Julia is was at the Munich security

[06:15] conference uh this morning and she spoke

[06:18] uh in pretty similar terms to what you

[06:20] just said um uh she caveats at the start

[06:23] if it's true I want Putin his Entourage

[06:26] Putin's friends and his government to

[06:28] know that they will be held responsible

[06:29] for what they have done to our country

[06:31] my family and my husband and that day

[06:33] will come very soon uh Joe Biden in

[06:37] 2021 uh threatened uh Vladimir Putin

[06:41] about over naval's death um he warned of

[06:44] devastating consequences for Russia if

[06:47] Naval dies in prison so let's with with

[06:50] that caveat that both you and Julia

[06:52] offered uh let's presume it's true um

[06:56] what what next what are the implications

[07:00] well so uh first of all if it's true

[07:04] it's a devastating blow uh one of the

[07:07] problems that the Russian opposition has

[07:09] had over the years is that um you know

[07:15] there a lot a lot of their people have

[07:18] turned out to be co-opt in some respect

[07:21] um some of them have turned out to be

[07:23] ultra

[07:24] nationalists uh and the ones who have

[07:27] been honor straightforward people and

[07:31] there are a bunch of them um of course

[07:34] most famously Boris nof um Putin has

[07:37] just murdered um and you know you

[07:42] can there's a saying where you can kill

[07:45] a person but you can't kill a dream but

[07:47] it actually turns out that if you kill

[07:50] enough people it makes a pretty big

[07:52] impact on on the dream and U navali was

[07:57] a a special figure in that he had an

[08:01] ability to talk not just to not

[08:05] principally to Elite Russians um Elite

[08:08] Russian liberals but

[08:10] to people who were just angry about the

[08:14] capacity of the Russian government to

[08:16] them over and

[08:19] become gazillionaire oligarchs with

[08:22] palaces right and he was extremely

[08:25] talented at um at talking about things

[08:29] that Russians actually cared about um

[08:32] and so I I do think if it is true the

[08:36] the loss to the idea of a Russian

[08:38] opposition a demo a genuinely Democratic

[08:42] opposition in Russia that does not

[08:44] aspire to uh you know to

[08:48] Imperial conquest of half of Europe it's

[08:52] a significant blow um what happens next

[08:56] look there is not that much the United

[08:59] United States can do about this um this

[09:02] is very internal to Russia um you know

[09:06] it's literally in a penal colony and the

[09:09] deepest darkest reaches of

[09:11] Siberia um and uh we've already done a

[09:16] lot of things like freezing assets that

[09:19] you know as a result of Ukraine and so

[09:21] it's not that there's a lot of us

[09:24] potential pressure on Russia that we're

[09:26] not already exerting we can't take any

[09:30] more Yachts there aren't any more Yachts

[09:32] that we can take or I

[09:34] mean already I would I would hope we've

[09:37] already taken the Yachts um but what we

[09:40] can do is talk about it and talk about

[09:42] it a lot um I plan to uh project the

[09:46] word murderers on the Russian Embassy

[09:48] this evening and um uh there will be you

[09:52] know a a series of protests I'm sure um

[09:56] and look both at the senior levels of

[09:59] government and at the individual levels

[10:02] uh people should talk about it people

[10:04] should uh play the clips of Naval play

[10:07] the videos that he made these are

[10:10] astonishing pieces of kind of

[10:14] investigative uh I mean a lot of them

[10:17] they're in Russian because they're we're

[10:18] not the audience for them but people

[10:20] should really learn about what it is

[10:23] that that organization and what he did

[10:27] um and you know

[10:30] and remember it the next time Tucker

[10:33] Carlson tells you that you know we you

[10:36] may not agree with Putin but we should

[10:38] listen to it yeah I want I want to get

[10:40] to our friend Tucker in a second uh uh

[10:43] just to put a finer point and I pulled

[10:44] this up a um uh that AG Hamilton was

[10:47] sharing the partial list of pu Putin

[10:49] critics or opponents who have

[10:51] mysteriously died or been targeted or

[10:53] obviously assassinated over the last few

[10:55] years at naly now twice prosan Magano uh

[11:00] Kango shot in Berlin 2019 veroff

[11:04] poisoned 2018 uh Sergey you're gonna

[11:07] have to excuse some of my Russian

[11:09] pronunciations Sergey scrippal and his

[11:10] daughter uh in in Britain in 18 nsof

[11:14] which who you mentioned in 15 so this is

[11:18] something that people know right uh it's

[11:20] not like a secret that that Putin has

[11:23] been engaging in these types of

[11:25] assassinations of his political

[11:26] opponents but is

[11:29] is not noal maybe a category difference

[11:32] from those examples as far as as as

[11:36] maybe rallying more intense focus and

[11:40] opposition so I think he's certainly the

[11:43] most important since nof and he may be

[11:46] more important than nof um uh a you know

[11:50] a lot of the people that you mentioned

[11:52] are people who uh are those not familiar

[11:56] with contemporary Russian politics those

[11:58] are named you wouldn't know I mean scle

[12:00] and his daughter of course are are a

[12:03] little bit different because it was in

[12:06] init the UK and and it was somebody that

[12:10] he had um had been traded uh in a in a

[12:14] spy exchange but um a most of those

[12:17] people are relatively obscure uh in the

[12:20] West on N um nval is not obscure um and

[12:25] in fact it was only a few weeks ago that

[12:28] um

[12:29] you know he disappeared for a while in

[12:31] that prison and um there was a lot of

[12:35] concern that he was dead at the time and

[12:39] the expression G nalni where is naali

[12:42] was a like a big trending social media

[12:45] thing um and blinkin talked about it

[12:49] publicly secretary blinkin and then the

[12:52] Russians you know let him release a

[12:54] little video or you know there was a

[12:56] little like but there was a kind of

[12:58] proof Proof of Life situation and so

[13:01] they are not entirely unresponsive to uh

[13:05] public pressure about him the problem is

[13:08] that once he is dead the public pressure

[13:11] is for what right what's the what what's

[13:15] the accountability that you can demand

[13:18] for one dead Alexi naal that demanding

[13:22] for you know 50,000 dead ukrainians and

[13:27] 20,000 uh missing stolen Ukrainian

[13:31] children uh if you've resisted that

[13:35] what's the what's the added pressure

[13:38] that you can do um and look the answer

[13:42] is that the president of the United

[13:43] States should talk about it everybody at

[13:46] the Munich security conference should be

[13:48] talking about it um and you know people

[13:53] should exact a price and um I would hope

[13:57] that companies that are still still

[13:59] doing business in Russia uh now uh get

[14:03] the question again uh only with naal

[14:07] instead of Ukraine as the reason for the

[14:09] question or in addition to Ukraine so I

[14:13] look am am I optimistic that there is

[14:17] some magic lever that will be pulled now

[14:20] because novali is dead that was not true

[14:24] because of a full-scale Invasion and

[14:27] genocidal conduct in Ukraine no do I

[14:30] think we should all act like there is

[14:33] yes okay um the the range of Bad actors

[14:38] um you know this this highlights uh over

[14:41] here in America particularly well not

[14:44] just not particularly entirely basically

[14:46] in the Republican Party um you know goes

[14:48] from the don't leave out Jill Stein oh

[14:52] and Jill and our friend Jill the

[14:53] enablers uh to the propagandas uh before

[14:56] we get to Tucker and the and Sarah pal

[14:58] and and denes Duan the worst actors um I

[15:01] want to highlight something that that

[15:04] kinzinger uh put up on his substack this

[15:06] morning uh that Alex Nal Alexi naly was

[15:09] everything that the GOP isn't uh taking

[15:11] a stand doesn't have to cost your life

[15:13] but God forbid you lose your access I do

[15:16] Wonder let's just put Tucker in that

[15:19] kind of crowd of comrades over over in a

[15:22] box for one second um as we look to to

[15:26] Ukraine Aid and the actual you know

[15:28] responses that are necessary might

[15:31] something like this backfire on Putin as

[15:34] far as forcing you know some of the

[15:36] spineless weasel the Mike Johnson's of

[15:39] the world to actually actually finally

[15:42] act and show show a little backbone do

[15:45] you see do you see any possible green

[15:46] shoots there well so look in a sane

[15:51] world where Republicans were holding up

[15:55] Ukraine Aid because of the Border but

[15:58] not because of the border and insisting

[16:00] on Border legislation but then nixing

[16:03] border legislation and letting uh uh the

[16:06] Russians uh overrun AV divka um uh

[16:11] because the ukrainians don't have enough

[16:13] artillery in a sane world like that uh

[16:16] if Putin murdered his most uh important

[16:21] critic you would think cooler heads

[16:24] would Prevail and the speaker would

[16:28] issue uh would call an immediate vote uh

[16:31] for unconditional

[16:33] unattached Ukraine AIDS so that uh at

[16:37] least he doesn't get the windfall of

[16:41] congressional inaction on top of

[16:43] murdering his chief critic but if you

[16:46] haven't noticed him we don't live in an

[16:49] entirely sane World um we uh live with

[16:55] in a world in which uh all the data

[16:59] prove everybody's hypotheses for a lot

[17:03] of Mike Johnson's and Tucker Carlson's

[17:06] you know this just might show the need

[17:08] for more dialogue with Putin after all

[17:11] if maybe he only killed uh uh navali

[17:15] because um you know we haven't been

[17:18] being nice enough to him so I I I do

[17:21] worry that people will uh you know cram

[17:25] it into their own crazy preconceptions

[17:28] of thing that said look this should

[17:31] concentrate everybody's mind this is a

[17:34] murderous guy he's murderous at the

[17:36] national level he's murderous at the uh

[17:40] at the personal level um and he's

[17:43] murderous at the State uh institutional

[17:47] level and you you know the United States

[17:53] has to be more kininger than Johnson

[17:56] about this and we just have to

[17:58] you know put certain domestic

[18:01] considerations aside and just pass that

[18:05] supplemental um well uh you suggested

[18:08] that maybe the Tuckers of the world

[18:10] would show that this uh needs additional

[18:13] dialogue I've got we've got we're doing

[18:15] it live this morning Ben um Tucker is

[18:18] right uh he's on stage right now at the

[18:21] world government Summit 20124 let's just

[18:24] I I don't exactly know what he said um

[18:26] but uh let's just listen to it live

[18:28] together I'll use the Devil's Advocate

[18:30] but Advocate away yes okay I'll tell you

[18:34] you should challenge in in in the rules

[18:37] of an interview and you are a master in

[18:39] in your in your business uh it's not for

[18:42] me to give you a lecture about that but

[18:44] you should challenge some ideas for

[18:47] instance

[18:49] uh you you didn't talk about freedom of

[18:53] speech in in Russia you did not talk

[18:55] about Naval about assassination

[18:58] about about restrictions on opposition

[19:02] in the coming uh elections I didn't talk

[19:06] about the things that every other

[19:07] American Media Outlet talks about

[19:09] exclusively because those are covered

[19:11] and because I have spent my life talking

[19:13] to people who run countries in various

[19:15] countries and have concluded the

[19:17] following that every leader kills people

[19:19] including my leader every leader kills

[19:21] people some kill more than others

[19:22] leadership requires killing people sorry

[19:24] it's why I wouldn't want to be a leader

[19:26] um that press restriction is universal

[19:29] in the United States I know because I've

[19:30] lived it I you know asked my former you

[19:32] know I I've had a lot of jobs um and

[19:35] I've done this for 34 years and I know

[19:36] how it works and um there's more

[19:39] censorship in Russia than there is in

[19:40] the United States but there's a great

[19:41] deal in the United States and so you

[19:43] know at a certain point it's like people

[19:44] can decide whether they think you know

[19:47] what what countries they think are

[19:48] better what systems they think are

[19:49] better I just want to know what he

[19:51] thinks that was the whole point yeah

[19:53] okay leadership leadership requires

[19:55] killing people leadership requires

[19:57] killing people so I you know I wasn't

[19:59] far off there um look um there is

[20:04] nothing we can do about the Tuckers of

[20:07] the world there is something we can do

[20:09] about the Mike Johnson's of the world

[20:11] and um that involves in the short term

[20:17] um a maximum pressure campaign to get

[20:20] him to hold this vote and I do hope that

[20:25] the naali story if it's true

[20:28] is uh will work as a significant arrow

[20:32] in that quiver uh uh and I'm confident

[20:35] that Naval would want that as well um

[20:40] the second thing is that these people

[20:42] really need to be removed from power and

[20:45] and that's a you know a longer term

[20:48] electoral uh thing but people who don't

[20:51] understand that you need to uh stand up

[20:54] to Vladimir

[20:56] Putin really need to not not be in

[20:59] power yeah you know what it reminds me

[21:01] of is um just listening to that is

[21:06] 20 but I can't remember if it was during

[21:08] the campaign in 2016 or maybe right

[21:10] after he was elected president um Trump

[21:12] does the interview with O'Reilly where

[21:14] O'Reilly asks him about uh Putin and his

[21:18] assassinations pure you think our

[21:21] country is so innocent we've got a lot

[21:23] of killers you think our country's so

[21:25] innocent that mindset I I do think you

[21:28] know it's just I'm struck there was the

[21:30] interview this week with Marco where

[21:31] he's talking to Jake Tapper and he's

[21:33] like yeah Trump says some crazy things

[21:35] he's not part of the Council on Foreign

[21:36] Relations but you can't you know take

[21:38] that all seriously and and just how

[21:41] wrong that worldview is and and how much

[21:43] the Trump World View that that the

[21:47] United States is not great that the

[21:50] United States is not any different from

[21:52] any of these other countries um uh in

[21:55] motivation uh it is a very

[21:58] uh debased view of the country a very

[22:01] dark view of the country and it has

[22:05] infected clearly a a huge portion of the

[22:09] Republican party like the party that

[22:10] used to feel that we were you know the

[22:14] hope of the world now oh you think we're

[22:17] so innocent oh everybody's a killer

[22:19] everybody uh everybody murders their

[22:21] political Foos we have denes duza today

[22:24] saying that Trump is Naval that that

[22:27] Biden is poop and that that he's being

[22:29] persecuted not just dest Jus is saying

[22:32] that uh Ben here's Lee zeldon Lee zelden

[22:36] one of the good Republicans famous

[22:38] moderate Republicans yeah um as the

[22:41] world reflects on the murder of Alexi

[22:43] naly at the hands of Putin it's worth

[22:45] remembering the Democrats are actively

[22:47] doing Biden's bidding as they also try

[22:49] to imprison his chief political opponent

[22:51] Donald

[22:53] Trump I mean this just disgusting moral

[22:57] equ equivalence has like has infected so

[23:01] much of the party that I I just how do

[23:04] you disinfect like I is is a

[23:07] disinfectant even possible once you've

[23:09] got to this dark of a place

[23:12] so in I mean there I think there's two

[23:15] answers to that and one is one relates

[23:18] to the criminal justice system and the

[23:21] other relates to the political culture

[23:23] and the answer with respect to the

[23:26] political system is that the US uh or

[23:30] sorry the answer with respect to the

[23:32] justice system is that if you can watch

[23:35] the proceedings against naali and watch

[23:37] the proceedings against Donald Trump and

[23:40] see them as equivalent then you are uh

[23:46] really really misunderstanding both the

[23:48] Russian justice system and its function

[23:51] and the American justice system and its

[23:54] function these are it's a very that's a

[23:55] very nice way to put that I would right

[23:58] I would say the the Russian justice

[24:00] system is is a fukan nightmare it is an

[24:05] instrument of the repressive powers of

[24:08] the state and nothing more than that uh

[24:11] the American justice system has its

[24:14] problems um but you know Donald Trump is

[24:17] getting four Fair trials in four

[24:20] different jurisdictions supervised by

[24:22] four different judges state and federal

[24:26] and he will have an ample opportunity to

[24:29] prove himself innocent of each and every

[24:32] one of the 91 uh felony counts that has

[24:36] been directed against him and by the way

[24:38] I don't believe he'll actually he may

[24:39] not be convicted of all of them right

[24:41] they they're actually in doubt the

[24:43] burden is actually on the prosecution

[24:47] and so I think if you you know if part

[24:51] of the answer to your question has to

[24:53] lie in the system playing out and we get

[24:57] to the end we get to him being convicted

[25:00] on X number and acquitted or dropped on

[25:03] y number and people get to look at the

[25:06] result and say do I think that result

[25:09] has Integrity the answer in the

[25:11] political system is way harder in in my

[25:14] view because I don't know how do you

[25:17] convince a political culture that it has

[25:21] Integrity that its systems have

[25:23] integrity and in the face of a

[25:26] Relentless multi Year campaign of

[25:30] delegitimization that includes you know

[25:32] Desh duza saying these things and Lee

[25:35] zeldon saying these things uh how do

[25:39] you how do you keep people having

[25:43] confidence in the fact that the US

[25:47] system and the Russian system are not

[25:49] the same that Joe Biden isn't out there

[25:53] murdering his political opponents by the

[25:55] way he's supposed to be too old and

[25:58] scile to be out there killing people um

[26:01] uh you know how do you convince there he

[26:04] his own son is being investigated by the

[26:06] doj right it is hard and this is the

[26:08] part that is so frustrating and and just

[26:10] when you think about the disintegration

[26:12] for another interview that might be

[26:14] coming down people's Pike in a in in a

[26:16] while I I was rewatching the Palin

[26:19] kurick interview last night and um and

[26:23] for as bad as Sarah Palin was in that

[26:25] interview and it was astonishing how bad

[26:28] she was upon rewatch it was kind of

[26:30] worse than I remembered really and uh

[26:32] still the the talking points were much

[26:36] more in the mainstream of where the

[26:39] American Pol is she talks about Reagan

[26:43] and The Shining City on the hill when

[26:44] the issue of American leadership comes

[26:46] up she talks about the threat from Putin

[26:49] she talks about worries about climate

[26:51] change and you fast forward to this week

[26:55] and Sarah Palin did you see this Sarah

[26:57] Palin put puts up a meme that is um it's

[27:01] it's like Tucker and and Putin's face uh

[27:06] superimposed on two people that are

[27:08] smiling looking over a a grave and on

[27:12] the gravestone it says the media and the

[27:14] Democrats and it's it's like this woman

[27:17] who was on the vice presidential ticket

[27:19] whatever you think about her you know

[27:22] how how much of a clown she's become now

[27:24] is not someone with no influence and

[27:27] she's just a couple of days ago putting

[27:29] out like literally cheerleading the idea

[27:34] that that Vladimir Putin should can is

[27:37] is murdering journalists and and days

[27:41] after she does that he he murders

[27:44] allegedly the opposition leader

[27:47] political leader and we're already

[27:50] seeing in the response wagon circling

[27:52] around this right like if you if that

[27:54] something that Stark if that Stark of a

[27:56] foot imagine if you put out a joke about

[27:58] killing somebody and then two days later

[28:00] it happened you know if that doesn't

[28:02] shake you into reality you know what is

[28:05] going to shake these people nothing well

[28:07] I I also think you know after after mass

[28:11] shootings when there's a political

[28:13] violence to the mass shooting we always

[28:15] you know have a okay is it Bernie

[28:18] Sanders's fault that somebody shot up

[28:21] the Congressional baseball game is it

[28:23] Donald Trump's fault that there was a

[28:25] Pulse Nightclub shooting right um I

[28:28] don't I never know how to think about

[28:30] those questions but I do think that we

[28:34] should ask a causal question here about

[28:37] Tucker's trip um which is you know if

[28:41] you're Vladimir Putin and you're you've

[28:45] kind of made a decision that you'll kill

[28:47] naali at the most opportune moment but

[28:51] you do want to time it because there's

[28:53] going to be some

[28:55] backlash and then Congress Congress goes

[28:58] on a four month stall on Ukraine Aid and

[29:03] so you really have this perception that

[29:05] the American political system is

[29:08] weakening in its resolve uh to confront

[29:12] you and then in the middle of that one

[29:15] of the most prominent Russia apologists

[29:18] in the in in the United States second

[29:21] only to Donald Trump himself shows up in

[29:24] MOS kiss your ass really maybe first can

[29:27] we play let's let's just listen to

[29:29] Tucker I'm bad like let's just listen to

[29:31] Tucker at the grocery store I'm sure I'm

[29:32] sure most people have heard it but we

[29:34] should just let's just all do it

[29:35] together because really it should be a

[29:37] communal experience Jason can we hear

[29:39] Tucker at a Russian grocery store if you

[29:42] take people's standard of living and you

[29:44] tank it through filth and crime and

[29:46] inflation and they literally can't buy

[29:48] the groceries they want at that point

[29:51] maybe it matters less what you say or

[29:53] whether you're a good person or a bad

[29:54] person you're wrecking people's lives in

[29:56] their country and and that's what our

[29:57] leaders have done to us and coming to a

[30:00] Russian grocery store the heart of evil

[30:02] and seeing what things cost and how

[30:04] people live it will radicalize you

[30:07] against our leaders that's how I feel

[30:09] anyway

[30:10] radicalized we're not making any of this

[30:12] up by the way at all not making it up

[30:15] Ben not making it up in a country where

[30:17] 25% of the population doesn't have

[30:19] running water by the way um look I don't

[30:24] think it's unreasonable to ask the

[30:26] question

[30:28] did Vladimir Putin take the current

[30:31] posture of the

[30:33] GOP uh both in Congress and with

[30:36] Tucker's visit and with you know

[30:39] everything Sarah Palin's doing you put

[30:41] it all together did he take it as a sign

[30:44] that this is a good moment to to do this

[30:48] I I don't I don't know how to evaluate

[30:50] that but I do wake up this morning

[30:53] wondering about it my response to that

[30:55] is kind of like doesn't that give too

[30:56] much agent to Putin is is is is really

[31:00] is maybe the Heart of Darkness in all of

[31:02] us not all not not all of us the whole

[31:05] country but is not the Heart of Darkness

[31:07] in in Tucker did did not Donald Trump

[31:10] reveal a darkness that was already

[31:13] within because of course but but my my

[31:17] point is when we act like shills for him

[31:22] he takes it as a signal he takes it as

[31:26] an these are these are not things that

[31:30] don't affect his thinking of what he can

[31:32] get away with when you stand up to him

[31:36] uh he takes that as a signal when you

[31:39] pucker your lips and kiss his ass he

[31:42] takes that as a

[31:44] signal he's getting a lot of good

[31:46] signals heting a lot of good signals all

[31:49] right I want to move on you're the Trump

[31:51] trials man we have two Trump trials

[31:52] updates but I just I like it is so

[31:56] enraging

[31:57] to the the Tucker thing as we sit here

[32:00] and listen to it and discuss it in the

[32:01] context of nality you know I I've I've

[32:03] been watching all these Tucker videos

[32:05] and kind of laughing at him right

[32:07] because there's there's something funny

[32:08] about it like the absurdity of Tucker

[32:10] this supposed man of the people

[32:13] who's apparently never heard of the idea

[32:15] that of of the grocery cart machines

[32:18] where you put in a quarter and and you

[32:20] have to you have to put in the quarter

[32:22] again on the back end in order to put it

[32:24] back like like he's never had a paid

[32:25] grocery cart he's never seen that before

[32:27] never been to an airport I guess um so

[32:29] there is some absurdity in Tu and you

[32:31] know Tucker going into one uh Metro

[32:34] station be like wow this is pretty

[32:36] Russia must be great but yeah I I just

[32:39] want to point out that those people have

[32:41] been being

[32:43] impressed with those Metro stations you

[32:46] know since the Stalin era and uh in in a

[32:51] fashion that they then impute to Russia

[32:53] in general and miss things like the

[32:56] great Ukraine ukan famine right because

[32:59] they're really impressed with a subway

[33:01] station like this is really old

[33:06] that he's falling for and um and yeah

[33:10] people in the nice parts of Moscow live

[33:14] way better than people in the rest of

[33:17] the largest country in the world yeah he

[33:19] should go visit the Nebraska or the

[33:21] Maine or the Alabama of Russia and see

[33:23] what see what what he think should drive

[33:25] a 100 miles out of Moscow 50 miles out

[33:28] of Moscow yeah but the thing is um he

[33:32] isn't falling for it and that's that's

[33:34] the thing he's not falling for it like

[33:36] Tucker is a very smart person um it's

[33:39] very evident in his writing and and and

[33:42] back when he did interviews that were

[33:43] not the type of interview that he did

[33:45] last week like he is a malevolent person

[33:49] that has decided that um out of either

[33:53] grievance towards his fellow Americans

[33:57] for some reason or out of uh uh hatred

[34:01] that he did not you know that he does

[34:03] not get the treatment among the American

[34:05] Elites that he wishes that he did or

[34:08] just out of desire for money or fame or

[34:10] because he's a troll or because

[34:12] he's a niist whatever what whatever

[34:14] motivations you want to impute on it is

[34:16] a person that knows better and is now

[34:19] out there being the number one

[34:23] propagandist for a just homicidal Maniac

[34:27] that just murdered his political

[34:29] opponents and that is uh uh uh

[34:31] kidnapping children that has invaded

[34:33] another country and like the the lack of

[34:37] just total rage and disgust among the

[34:43] Republican Elites and and Tucker's other

[34:45] friends and allies is the thing that is

[34:47] like the most to me disheartening about

[34:49] that because the response should like I

[34:51] and I'm guilty of this the response

[34:53] should not be laughter or or you know

[34:56] what it should be rage it's ra it's

[34:58] enraging I I completely agree and I do

[35:02] also agree with uh your friend Carville

[35:07] that mocking them is actually important

[35:10] um thank you for listening on my first

[35:12] week no I I I listen to them all um and

[35:16] look I believe in mockery I'm the guy

[35:19] who projects you know body on on

[35:22] embassies around the world um I think

[35:24] mockery is a really important thing it

[35:27] plays an important role but you don't

[35:29] confuse the mockery with your internal

[35:32] emotional response because the mockery

[35:35] is what you're what you're projecting no

[35:38] pun intended at them the rage is what's

[35:42] driving the mockery and you know I have

[35:46] to I spend a lot of time with real

[35:50] ukrainians and I find myself

[35:53] increasingly having to explain the

[35:55] behavior of my country to them and they

[35:59] are not like Tucker and Trump they

[36:03] actually believe in America in this yes

[36:06] in this

[36:07] really pardon me innocent way we're the

[36:11] people who confronted the Soviet Union

[36:14] we're the people who organize NATO we're

[36:18] democracy and you know relatively

[36:21] non-corrupt capitalism We're The Shield

[36:24] of the democratic world and try to

[36:28] explain Tucker

[36:30] Carlson and Donald Trump and why why

[36:34] does Donald Trump hate Ukraine to a

[36:38] table full of ukrainians and it has

[36:40] something to do right it has something

[36:42] to do with

[36:43] barisma personal pettiness right it's

[36:47] this little little while they are

[36:51] trying to keep their country independent

[36:54] and trying to get 20,000 kids back back

[36:56] and not lose as many people as they are

[37:00] as they can save and you know it's a

[37:04] very enraging thing when you've had had

[37:08] to have that conversation for the 50th

[37:12] time and yeah you know half of the the

[37:16] half of the country's behavior in this

[37:19] space not half 30% is really inexcusable

[37:25] and you know as somebody who spends a

[37:27] lot of time trying to help ukrainians

[37:30] navigate our crazy political system just

[37:34] try to try to explain it to a

[37:38] hypothetical 22-year-old Ukrainian kid

[37:41] who's uh who who doesn't understand like

[37:46] what Fox News is or who Tucker Carlson

[37:49] is just try and it's sad it's sad we're

[37:53] running out of time and just the thing

[37:54] is um the inverse of that was just was

[37:58] once true it was one of the most

[37:59] inspiring things when I was working for

[38:00] McCain Mark Salter as speech writer you

[38:03] know would tell me stories of traveling

[38:04] mcain all over the world and and it was

[38:07] these types of people the 22y old

[38:09] ukrainians uh the 22y old Georgians uh

[38:12] people in countries that had uh

[38:15] autocrats of their own and they knew

[38:17] they KN you know the McCain brand the

[38:19] American brand it meant something it

[38:21] meant that oh they will be on our side

[38:23] they will be on our side and now these

[38:24] people have to feel like no there's a

[38:27] big portion of the country that's on the

[38:28] side of the of the murder and the death

[38:30] spot okay uh this is you're supposed to

[38:32] be here for Trump trials two very brief

[38:34] Trump trial updates that um I just want

[38:36] to uh get in um yesterday uh Trump

[38:40] appointed special counsel this is

[38:41] related to the topic at hand David Weiss

[38:44] um uh is charging Alexander smaroff I

[38:48] feel like the the script writers are a

[38:50] little on the nose here um uh by naming

[38:53] him smear off age 43 with ly to the FBI

[38:58] and creating false records he was

[38:59] arrested also a little on the nose at

[39:02] Harry Reid international airport in Las

[39:04] Vegas um what he's charged with uh Ben

[39:07] is uh is basically

[39:10] fabricating um the the notion that uh he

[39:14] was talking about barisma business deal

[39:16] dealings with Biden with with Hunter and

[39:19] with Joe Biden when Biden was vice

[39:20] president right I guess and and who

[39:22] knows what's true at this point if a

[39:23] liar is a liar but at some point you

[39:25] know there there was evidence that they

[39:27] had spoken about it after you know

[39:28] during the period when Trump was

[39:29] president when Biden was a private

[39:31] citizen uh but he fabricated uh to

[39:33] investigators the idea that these

[39:35] conversations were going when Biden was

[39:37] vice president obviously a big

[39:38] difference um and so uh you know this

[39:41] guy was mentioned I believe on the

[39:43] Hannity Show 82 time maybe not by name

[39:45] but like this claim was was mentioned on

[39:47] Hannity 82 92 times something like that

[39:49] he's been a star witness for comr

[39:52] another one bites the dust here on the

[39:54] hunter Biden investigation yeah yeah so

[39:56] I have two things to say about this and

[39:59] I have not followed this case especially

[40:01] closely because I was glued to the

[40:04] television for the fonny Willis show

[40:06] yesterday um but um look there's two

[40:10] really important points first of all the

[40:12] prosecutor who has brought this case is

[40:15] the same prosecutor who's Prosecuting uh

[40:19] Hunter Biden it's the special special

[40:21] counsel David Weiss so in other words

[40:23] this is somebody who's trying to make a

[40:25] case against

[40:27] Biden and this witness fabricates this

[40:31] stuff and he ends up Prosecuting him uh

[40:34] so you know that'll give you an idea of

[40:38] you know this is a presumably a

[40:40] receptive audience to somebody who's uh

[40:43] you know got a claim of of a demand of a

[40:46] big bribe from from uh somebody about

[40:50] Hunter and Joe Biden and yet uh he turns

[40:54] around and prosecutes him that'll give

[40:55] you an idea of how credible this story

[40:59] was um the second thing is you know the

[41:05] entire there there's two sides of the

[41:07] hunter Biden Story one is the side that

[41:10] you know Hunter Biden was an addict and

[41:15] uh engaged in all sorts of shady stuff

[41:17] and traded on his father's name and uh

[41:21] you know got himself into a fair bit of

[41:23] trouble legal trouble um the second

[41:27] aspect of it was that this was somehow a

[41:30] larger story about Joe Biden than about

[41:33] Hunter Biden yeah and the different

[41:36] bricks in that story have all turned out

[41:39] to be um and it doesn't stop

[41:43] comr from talking about the Biden crime

[41:46] family it doesn't talk about um but you

[41:50] know no component of it ends up being

[41:53] true for the simple reason I think that

[41:56] Joe Biden isn't corrupt what whatever

[41:59] else he is he's old he's uh he's um you

[42:03] know he is what he is and he appears to

[42:05] have mishandled classified information

[42:07] but he's not a he's not a corrupt guy

[42:10] taking bribes um and so what happens is

[42:14] they get very excited about these people

[42:17] who have some story to tell and then

[42:19] they turn out to be charlatans or they

[42:21] turned out to not tell the stories that

[42:23] they claim they tell or the um and it's

[42:25] a very consistent pattern now over time

[42:29] that should make you be uh real careful

[42:34] with the uh you know Hanes and comr of

[42:39] the world who are trying to make Hunter

[42:42] Biden be about Joe Biden and this was

[42:44] obvious from the start the barisma thing

[42:46] was so obvious from the start the whole

[42:48] the whole conspiracy theory I've been

[42:50] writing about this for years uh we could

[42:51] do a whole episode maybe we will this

[42:53] year on the absurdity of the barisma

[42:55] conspiracy okay um the Fon Willis

[42:59] situation has been so depressing and

[43:00] dispiriting to me that I was not able to

[43:02] watch it um just because I'm like I hate

[43:06] anything that that gives Donald Trump a

[43:08] hammer to beat us with uh us being the

[43:12] pro- Democracy Pro rule of law side of

[43:14] things so we've got about three to five

[43:16] minutes here so since I was too

[43:18] depressed to watch and you were glued to

[43:20] it I'm just going to put a quarter in

[43:21] the in the machine and let you kind of

[43:24] get get us up to speed

[43:26] well

[43:27] so the bottom line uh the hearing is

[43:31] still going on today and it is a mark of

[43:34] my uh deep uh respect for you that I am

[43:38] here rather than watching it now um this

[43:40] was the best like my babysitter during

[43:43] OJ she would never she didn't turn she

[43:44] didn't turn off Court TV back in uh for

[43:47] for like an entire week this is better

[43:50] TV than than Court TV at its best during

[43:53] the OJ trial um uh for so look fonny

[43:58] Willis has a a bit of a problem but I I

[44:02] think she actually solved most of it

[44:04] herself yesterday um uh she had this

[44:09] relationship with uh a guy she had hired

[44:13] as special prosecutor in this case

[44:15] Nathan Wade Nathan Wade took the stand

[44:18] yesterday the issue is whether there's

[44:20] some conflict of interest as a result of

[44:22] their financial Arrangements through

[44:24] this affair he took the stand and was I

[44:28] thought completely

[44:30] incredible um claimed that he had gone

[44:34] they had gone on vacation together um

[44:37] but you know she'd paid him back for

[44:40] everything in cash um and

[44:45] um the court also heard testimony from a

[44:50] former friend of fonnie Willis who's

[44:53] apartment she had taken over who claimed

[44:57] that Wade and Willis had been dating

[45:00] much earlier than they've acknowledged

[45:02] and the significance of that would be

[45:04] that it's much worse if she hired the

[45:06] person she was sleeping with than if she

[45:09] hired somebody and then they later in a

[45:12] context of a professional relationship

[45:14] started to have a romantic relationship

[45:16] so things around two o'clock in the

[45:19] afternoon look really bad for fonnie and

[45:22] then she charges into the courtroom and

[45:26] demands to

[45:27] testify and I have never seen somebody

[45:31] take over a courtroom like she did she

[45:35] she comes in she sits down and she talks

[45:40] about why she always keeps cash around

[45:43] her apartment and she is as compelling

[45:47] as he was apparently evasive and I think

[45:51] by the end of the day she had really

[45:54] saved the situation

[45:56] um and I don't know what's going on

[45:59] there today or whether the situation is

[46:02] going to be uh end up being bad again

[46:07] but I do have the impression that there

[46:09] is no basis to disqualify her after both

[46:13] Nathan Wade's and her sworn testimony

[46:16] and so that's a little tentative because

[46:19] like they are literally in court right

[46:21] now um but I think um I think this is

[46:24] going to end up being a bit of a tempest

[46:26] in a teapot but it was a heck of a

[46:29] tempest Tempest a great an entertaining

[46:31] Tempest I mean it's got some Parry Mason

[46:34] it's got some General Hospital it's got

[46:37] some House of

[46:39] Cards great daytime television I'm gonna

[46:42] take your word for this but look you we

[46:44] got to have our our you know p's and q's

[46:47] in order here Ben you know I like and

[46:49] this is so I'm thinking about this

[46:50] through the comms guy hat we're giving

[46:53] him a lot of fodder to bleet there's a

[46:55] lot of bleeding fodder right now and

[46:57] there's a some delays we're giving him

[46:59] some delaying opportunities and some

[47:02] bleeding fod there is no doubt that if

[47:05] fonny Willis had come to me and say Wht

[47:08] us you know you're you're a good Gray

[47:10] beard on this sh not that I have a Gray

[47:12] beard but you like should I have an

[47:16] affair with the special prosecutor and

[47:19] reimburse him for joint travel with wads

[47:22] of cash I would have said no part of

[47:26] that sounds like a good plan um but that

[47:30] you know and like you'll it's going to

[47:32] come out you're going to get your ass

[47:34] kicked over this you're gonna have

[47:36] litigation over this and it's going to

[47:38] let Trump change the subject that's what

[47:40] I would have said but she didn't consult

[47:42] me in advance about this neither did

[47:44] Nathan Wade he also didn't ask me how he

[47:47] should answer his divorce uh

[47:51] interrogatories so like nobody consulted

[47:54] me on this part I would have suggested

[47:56] they handle it differently um that's not

[48:00] the question on the table right now the

[48:02] question on the table right now is is

[48:04] she gonna get disqualified from the case

[48:06] and is Donald Trump gonna gonna reap a

[48:09] real uh winfall from this and I I think

[48:14] you could eat these words but I think

[48:16] the answer is no Ben wit us thank you

[48:19] for coming out of the bullpen today it's

[48:21] like uh all my baseball references are

[48:23] 20 years old I don't watch baseball

[48:24] anymore but your Mariana Rivera or 30

[48:27] years old Dennis eesley you know coming

[48:29] out of the pen and just doing a

[48:31] wonderful job Goose gosage closing out

[48:34] the week with us and uh I'm very very

[48:37] grateful for your expertise and for

[48:38] doing this and we'll be talking to you

[48:41] [Music]

[48:54] soon